Making Aye and Orun Work

The problems... Aye and Orun tech have similar problems to Black Hand and Anarch. 1) Aye & Orun need a ready vampire. 2) To get the cards in hand for when you get the vampires you need to load the deck. 3) If you load the deck early, you load it for the end of the game too. The Big Aye/Orun problem: None of the tech is much good with just one of them you need multiples[/u] The Possible Solutions Anarch and BH tech give you insights into how to fix these problems. Anarch Tech - Anarch Convert Based - You create a crypt card that dumps the needed trait and disposes of itself. ++ Crypt Card which removes itself effectively from your crypt as if it was not there ++ One Convert supplies all the needed tech/setup ++ Does not stall other mechanics -- Not a solution to Orun/Aye because only one card is provided. -- A Crypt solution would need to stack the crypt with so many you could easily draw four of the 'solution' and none of valid targets for your tech. -- No additional speed to the Orun/Ayes - Twilight Camp Based - You create a master that dumps the needed trait and has an alternative. ++ Can be played early. ++ Dumps the mechanic ++ Has an alternative use -- Not a solution to Orun/Aye because it hits the problem of jamming on Orun/Aye in hand deck. -- Unless you can dump multiples it adds no speed. -- What alternative uses can you have?? - Cadet - Dumps a keyword but nothing else and doesn't exist while the minion is not in play. ++ Is playable on a non-ready minion. ++ Gives the needed tech. -- Handjam or deckjam from loading the library -- Unless you can drop multiples it adds no speed. Alternative Ideas 1) Multiples at once. 2) Minion A can put Orun on Minion B and untap 3) Put them on an uncontrolled minion. 4) Dedicated Orun/Aye minions or Archetypes. 5) Errata Aye/Orun so they can target uncontrolled vampires. Proposals Guided Meditation Action +1 stealth. Requires a Laibon. Put up to 2 Orun or Aye on the acting minion and untap the acting minion. Instead, you may put up to 2 Orun or Aye on an uncontrolled Laibon minion. Steve-Dave The African Vampire (cap & skills) Steve-Dave may gain an Orun/Aye from your ashheap, library or hand during your untap phase if has less Aye & Orun than his capacity. Sacred Grove Master: Location Laibon vampires you control may take a +1 stealth action costing X blood to gain X Orun or X Aye from your library, hand and ashheap. If the acting vampire is older than capacity 7, they untap after this action. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

What about making Aye/Orun playable from ash heap as if from the hand? Not only you somewhat solve hand jamming, but also need less of them in the deck (please recall, that they have usually significant burn clauses). Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.

Because that's about the same as having to play them on the ready vampire. There is so much setup time you can't get into the game because of the time it takes to get them onto the minion. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

Not to derail from your card ideas, but I would note: 1. Aye/Orun isn't remotely like Black Hand/Anarch Neither Black Hand nor Anarch (as requirements) require any library cards. Even prior to Anarch Convert, the cardless anarchness action existed. The pain of Aye/Orun is that they take up a ton of library slots and mostly give effects not worth the effort. Sure, one could make vampires Black Hand using library slots, but that's not how most BH decks work. 2. Aye/Orun is not where I'd focus attention I realize it's using what has been provided, but what has been provided by WW published sets with respect to Aye/Orun is garbage. What Laibon need is not more ways to come up with convoluted combinations of cards but mostly more vampires, some easy to play cards for sect/clan/discipline combinations, and for Abombwe to be more meaningful. Traveller Card Game

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Sacred Grove > Master: Location > Laibon vampires you control may take a +1 stealth action costing X blood to gain X Orun or X Aye from your library, hand and ashheap. If the acting vampire is older than capacity 7, they untap after this action. > How about making this a rule instead, like the default action to become anarch. "Any laibon vampire you control can take an +1 stealth undirected action to search your library for an aye or orun card card. This actions costs x blood, where x is the number of such cards on the vampire. If succesful, untap the acting vampire at the end of turn." Needs tweaking, but I like the idea. Overkill is highly underrated. You know, like in computor games and such.

I'd make it: "Once each turn, any laibon vampire you control can take a +1 stealth undirected action to search your library for an aye or orun card. This actions costs x blood, where x is the number of such cards on the vampire. If succesful, untap the acting vampire at the end of turn." This removes the slowdown (having to actually take an action with potentially high blood cost is enough given the lack of stealth on main Laibon bloodlines). Untaping at the end is not as useful, because not every Laibon deck plays multitude of reactions. Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.

> agzocgud wrote: > How about making this a rule instead, like the default action to become anarch. > > "Any laibon vampire you control can take an +1 stealth undirected action to search your library for an aye or orun card card. This actions costs x blood, where x is the number of such cards on the vampire. If succesful, untap the acting vampire at the end of turn." > > Needs tweaking, but I like the idea. > Still a little awkward, in that it uses up an action, and while the Ishtarri have Freak/Forced to play with, the others don't so much. However, the rules option seems generally a nicer way to go, and it would fairly easy to do something like: When you transfer a Laibon into the game, you may search your hand, ash heap and/or library for [zero, some or more Aye/Orun cards]. If you go the card way, I'd massively prefer they weren't exclusive cards. Something more multi-functional. Something Laibony Action, Requires a Laibon, a Laibon member of a particular clan, a Laibon vampire with Abombwe, or something +1 stealth action This vampire does something, and gets a bonus for having some Aye or Orun. Alternatively, this vampire tutors for an Aye or Orun and maybe untaps. That way, you can have a reasonable number in the deck, and switch gear part-way through.

My question is why do you think that Orun and Aye are broken? Darby Keeney's Deck "Govern is Weaksauce" won with Orun. Sahan Abeln won the Belgian ECQ using at least 8 Orun. It seems to me that good players can win with the mechanic. If you can win a ECQ with the mechanic, I don't think it needs to be fixed.

If you play laibon and are having problems with how bad orun and aye are, why are you using orun and aye? No secrets is the good part about being laibon, add terra incognita and well marked for more awesome. Orun with nb is solid. There are 20ish parts of the game im more concerend with helping than orun and aye. Abombwe is the discipline withthe fewest useless cards currently, no reason to give it bad stuff. The main problem with orun and aye is that its not (in the WoD) something like stacking cards on a minion. Its the morality/humanity trait for laibon, just like paths are the humanity alternate for sabbat. Orun and aye show how in touch with the mundane and supernatural parts of a vampires being they are. So, certain sins detract from different traits, but wouldnt affect the other. Managing both at high levels is extremely hard. But, paths are playable, the issue is X amount of laibon clans would neex X amount of paths toxhave paths, and only Akunanse have thier own discipline. If orun and aye were added as paths, or even like striga and malficia instead of howxthey are, it would be different. Flight, striga, and malficia are examples of how hugh aye or orun could be implimented. With the exception that most vamps would likely not superior of orun and aye, so limit of 3 mixed isxresonable. Or would have been if not for cards already depending on X orun or aye. So, super orun or aye is an idea i guess, but im not losing sleep over laibon clans only having access to 6 strong ideas each instead of 8 when some clans and bloodlines arwnt even that well off.

> drstrange26 wrote: > > Sahan Abeln won the Belgian ECQ using at least 8 Orun. > > It seems to me that good players can win with the mechanic. > Mm Sahan's deck used 8 orun with Nana for his Brutals - isn't wasn't particularly exciting but I assume with the Ashur combines to let it do fun stuff and Darby's event was 10 players [any deck can and will win in 10 players if played by a brilliant player like Darby!} . There are a few more Orun/Aye decks in the TWDA but not many and these seem to be Cesewayo or Brutal bleed decks I don't know if you want maths or anecdotes but the aye/orun system is too clunky [and in that respect resembles Bhand and Anarch tech]. Things that don't work right out of the box generally don't survive long enough to do well.

Maybe say any Laibon can automatically get an Aye or Orun from hand, ash heap, or library when it enters play? Would that make Aye/Orun workable? Would it be too much juice for Laibon? Should I don a fireproof suit now for making a suggestion that would add something to the rulebook?

That would barely help the speed issue without addressing the deck-clogging issue. Maybe as part of a full solution.

> Dorrinal wrote: > That would barely help the speed issue without addressing the deck-clogging issue. Maybe as part of a full solution. > Let's be fair. It would also bairly help the deck-clogging issue since you would get to take an Orun/Aye out of your library each time you influenced a Laibon vampire.

Good point. It's still too little by itself. To answer you other question: a rules change might just be the best way to fix aye and orun. They feel a little too much like land in Magic to me. They aren't very interesting on their own (3 aye is cool I guess), they take a lot of deck space, yet you need them to play certain cards.

> Dorrinal wrote: > They feel a little too much like land in Magic to me. They aren't very interesting on their own (3 aye is cool I guess), they take a lot of deck space, yet you need them to play certain cards. > As "land" cards, that prompts the idea that - if you could go back in time and wave a magic wand - you might choose not to make them master cards. Instead, make them work more like Conviction cards. You can pull one from your hand, ash heap or library when a Laibon enters play. You can put one on each Laibon for free in your untap phase. So they cycle really quite easily. You typically burn Conviction cards to pay costs, but LaibonHumanityPath untap cards might not burn. That might be a little too radical from where we are, though.

> kombainas wrote: > I'd make it: > > "Once each turn, any laibon vampire you control can take a +1 stealth undirected action to search your library for an aye or orun card. This actions costs x blood, where x is the number of such cards on the vampire. If succesful, untap the acting vampire at the end of turn." > > This removes the slowdown (having to actually take an action with potentially high blood cost is enough given the lack of stealth on main Laibon bloodlines). Untaping at the end is not as useful, because not every Laibon deck plays multitude of reactions. > I don´t like this. When you are seated next to a Aus-weenie or similar fast dedicted block-deck, it sucks too much. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > 5) Errata Aye/Orun so they can target uncontrolled vampires. > This would be nice. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > As "land" cards, that prompts the idea that - if you could go back in time and wave a magic wand - you might choose not to make them master cards. Instead, make them work more like Conviction cards. > That actually sounds REALLY good. Struggle in the Ebony Kingdom Rules Amendments 1. Aye and Orun are placed in a central pile, similar to a Blood Bank. This reserve is technically infinite. 2. Each Methuselah may choose Path of Orun or Path of Aye at the beginning of their game. Laibons controlled by that Methuselah may take a +1 stealth action costing X blood to put X of the corresponding card (Aye if they chose Path of Aye or vice versa) onto the acting vampire and then untap. 3. When a Laibon enters play or a minion becomes Laibon, they may automatically gain an Aye or Orun corresponding to the Path chosen by the Methuselah. 4. When a vampire takes a non-mandatory hunt action, they may reduce the amount of blood gained by 1 and gain 1 Aye or Orun instead as corresponding to the Path chosen by the Methuselah. 5. Any Aye or Orun that are burned are returned to the central pile. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > > > jamesatzephyr wrote: > > As "land" cards, that prompts the idea that - if you could go back in time and wave a magic wand - you might choose not to make them master cards. Instead, make them work more like Conviction cards. > > > That actually sounds REALLY good. > > Struggle in the Ebony Kingdom Rules Amendments > 1. Aye and Orun are placed in a central pile, similar to a Blood Bank. This reserve is technically infinite. > > 2. Each Methuselah may choose Path of Orun or Path of Aye at the beginning of their game. Laibons controlled by that Methuselah may take a +1 stealth action costing X blood to put X of the corresponding card (Aye if they chose Path of Aye or vice versa) onto the acting vampire and then untap. > > 3. When a Laibon enters play or a minion becomes Laibon, they may automatically gain an Aye or Orun corresponding to the Path chosen by the Methuselah. > > 4. When a vampire takes a non-mandatory hunt action, they may reduce the amount of blood gained by 1 and gain 1 Aye or Orun instead as corresponding to the Path chosen by the Methuselah. > > 5. Any Aye or Orun that are burned are returned to the central pile. > I would prefer a more simple errata/new rule. Something like: During your untap phase, you may search your hand, library of ash heap for a Aye or Orun card to play on each of your Laibon. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > I would prefer a more simple errata/new rule. Something like: > > During your untap phase, you may search your hand, library of ash heap for a Aye or Orun card to play on each of your Laibon. > i'm not sure if i'd want 3 AYE to hit the table this quickly on multiple minions...

> Ashur wrote: > During your untap phase, you may search your hand, library of ash heap for a Aye or Orun card to play on each of your Laibon. > I'd be wary of that. It's not a bad thing to make Aye/Orun easier to get or even easier to get in multiple... but I don't think I'd want them to be Convictions not without a complete rewrite of their own text. The idea behind those rules is to maybe have something that could be tested in a storyline type format. Maybe the action costing X blood sees the most use. Maybe the elective hunt for Aye/Orun works better, maybe the free-one when you influence out Laibon or make your guys Laibon. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > It's not a bad thing to make Aye/Orun easier to get or even easier to get in multiple... but I don't think I'd want them to be Convictions not without a complete rewrite of their own text. > Yes, in the parallel universe where Aye and Orun were Conviction cards, and Aye/Orun-using cards triggered off the amount you had, or required a certain amount etc., you'd need to carefully rewrite a variety of cards. The Aye and Orun themselves, maybe not so much - a Wake (Aye) and a vote (Orun) aren't too bad, really. Where the problems would probably occur would be with - say - Brutal Influence and Exile, which would be significantly more powerful than they are now.

> Squidalot wrote: > > > Ashur wrote: > > I would prefer a more simple errata/new rule. Something like: > > > > During your untap phase, you may search your hand, library of ash heap for a Aye or Orun card to play on each of your Laibon. > > > i'm not sure if i'd want 3 AYE to hit the table this quickly on multiple minions... > OK. Say 1 card only then? Or is that too weak? My point was that I don´t want a new rule to be 20 paragraphs long. And I don´t like errata. I also like rules that look like other rules (in this case the imbued-thing) "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Squidalot wrote: > > > Ashur wrote: > > I would prefer a more simple errata/new rule. Something like: > > > > During your untap phase, you may search your hand, library of ash heap for a Aye or Orun card to play on each of your Laibon. > > > i'm not sure if i'd want 3 AYE to hit the table this quickly on multiple minions... > It deserves to be tested at least. Laibon are not Imbued: they don't have permanent powers so they still need to play cards. Even with such a fetching mechanism, there are still serous cardflow issues to keep it balanced.

Here's an idea that would work within the existing rules to slightly alleviate the problem of deckjam in the late game: Name: Laibon Something Cardtype: Action Requires a ready Laibon. Search your library or ash heap for 1 Aye or Orun and remove it from the game. Do something powerful.

The problem with Actions to either fetch or remove Aye/Orun is that you aren't getting them on your minions so you can use the Aye/Orun tech without more than a turn of setup. Ditto for Master cards that drag them out. You have to wait for the next MPA to either fetch them or play them. Unless you're going to allow a Fetch & Play but at that point you're starting to basically have a 60 card deck with 40 cards to get your Aye/Oruns in play. It probably needs to be either: a) A default action like a Hunt Action b) A freebie without an action for Laibons c) Something completely different we haven't thought of... Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > The problem with Actions to either fetch or remove Aye/Orun is that you aren't getting them on your minions so you can use the Aye/Orun tech without more than a turn of setup. > > Ditto for Master cards that drag them out. You have to wait for the next MPA to either fetch them or play them. Unless you're going to allow a Fetch & Play but at that point you're starting to basically have a 60 card deck with 40 cards to get your Aye/Oruns in play. > > It probably needs to be either: > > a) A default action like a Hunt Action > b) A freebie without an action for Laibons > c) Something completely different we haven't thought of... > What about a modifier that drags them out? One for orun, one for aye, (hear me out, i hate these cards and concept but love kotek). Only usable on a hunt action. If this axtion is successful, this vampire gains one (orun/aye) and untaps. If this vampire is a magagi or a laibon with capacity above 7, they may gain two ay or orun from your (hand/deck/heap) instead. A minion can only play one (cardname) each minion phase. So, earth feeder/amaranth/lokis/whatever go with it, but its once a turn, cycles as a hunt for free, and sucks slightly less than fo anarch.

Because you're trading one kind of card-jam for another. An action modifier that does it won't alleviate card-jam. The ideal answer is that almost as soon as you have a Laibon you have a way of putting an Aye or Orun on them. Either we REALLY mess with the rules and let players have a sideboard of Aye and Orun and a rules way to gain them... or we errata the card itself to function differently. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

Iäm not really convinced that Laibon NEED to have way easier access to Aye/Oron. Grabnted the tech is pretty crappy at the moment but still... Perhaps the best idea so far has been the ability to play these to minions in your uncontrolled region. Finnish Politics!

Static Virtue Master. Requires a ready Laibon. Choose a Laibon you control. If this Laibon was moved to your ready region during your last influence phase, then for every two capacity above 4 this Laibon has, you may move one Aye and one Orun from your hand or library to this Laibon. Otherwise, you may move one Aye or one Orun from your hand or library to this Laibon. Shuffle afterward. Instead of complicating stuff why don't you just change this card to: Requires a ready Laibon. Choose a Laibon you control. If this Laibon was moved to your ready region during your last influence phase, then for every two capacity above 4 this Laibon has, you may move one Aye and one Orun from your hand or library (or ash heap) to this Laibon. Otherwise, you may move one Aye or one Orun from your hand or library (or ash heap) to this Laibon. Shuffle afterward.

Wesile: I like it, but I don't think it alone is a complete answer. But it's a nice modification. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> wesile wrote: > Requires a ready Laibon. Choose a Laibon you control. If this Laibon was moved to your ready region during your last influence phase, then for every two capacity above 4 this Laibon has, you may move one Aye and one Orun from your hand or library (or ash heap) to this Laibon. Otherwise, you may move one Aye or one Orun from your hand or library (or ash heap) to this Laibon. Shuffle afterward. > I fear this would still fall prey to the common problem of cards that are awesome if they turn up in the first 15-20 cards of your deck, and when you're still drawing them at the other end of the game, you're punching yourself in the face wishing it was a Villein or a Pentex Subversion or something. But to get it at the start of the game semi-reliably, you need enough in your deck that that would happen a fair bit. Of course, the original Static Virtue's timing restriction is even harsher. Still, it could be worse, it could be Proxy Kissed. Legendary Vampire does better here by being quite awesome, and more of a boost than an enabler so usable in smaller numbers, and commonly found in decks that generate a reasonable amount of pool.

Name: Antistatic Virtue Cardtype: Master Master. Trifle. Put this card on a ready Laibon. During your untap phase, you can add 1 counter on an Aye or Virtue on this Laibon. You can burn 1 counter on an Aye (resp. Orun) card on this Laibon instead of tapping an Aye (resp. Orun) to pay costs. Anyway, Orun and Aye suck. I doubt there's much to save. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Just looked over orun/aye cards, because o couldnt remember what aye did. And as it turns out, nothing useful. Vtes has had a long standing issue with stuff thats crazy in the rpg being useless ifcit makes you seem human. What i mean by that is the grandest trick sucks and never hasnt sucked. Aye shows connection to the human world, orun to the supernatural, and thusly, aye got boned in vtes. It helps devil channel feet and savannah runner do an untap. I think jua vema has a neat clause for tapping an aye as well, and if it wasnt so damn useless as just combat, (if it was a modifier at superior) it would enable laibon FoW decks. But, you need a laibon with aye and superior protean and fortitude, and must get blocked to play ot and form of mist, so its pretty useless. Pallid cant touch yiu with an aye, but ive never looked at that card outside of draft. Mundane, however, i run as a DI in casual decks sometimes. So, the only reason to run aye is stacking 3 alomgside 3 orun to gain a minor effect from a unique master. Or to waste card slots and mpas to set up a strong hunt turn with a once per game carnival. Yay. Aye needs better crap. Like a block fails for weenies and allies of some sort. Or maybe that stealth bonus for hunting present on some aye cards could be innate, like +1 stealth on hunt actions for every 2 aye. Now, for the getting orun and aye on vamps, what if we stop viewing the physical orun/aye cards as the only way to get them? Why not add a way to just churn out orun/aye as counters from a permanent? Or even(less optimally) a permanent like lilliths blessing that allows a laibon to gain a counter only used by that card(ii doeant matter...) but in this case, it gives a counter representing 3 orun(or aye, i suppose) and disallows another counter like it going onto the minion? I like the static virtue modification. Some. It could go on an uncontrolled laibon for all i care. The mechanic sucks, and im amazed this many people care about orun/aye. It would enable more decks to erratta almost playable stuff. But, if we are going to errata cards for orun and aye, why not make them less than a trife. You play it, and it doesnt even count as your trifle if its the fisrt one you play. Or, even better make it like dagger: If this (orun/aye) was played frm your hand to this vampire, you may search your hand, ash heap,,or library for another copy of the same card and place it on this minion as well. Thusly, we 1. dont have to make cards to support orunaye fetching 2. Let several leqve yoir deck at once(4 during a normal master phase, i suppose double for Nana,,but i think mmpa rules,for trifles need changed anyway) 3. Allow you to use either "requires a laibon with 3+" vareity you want with one mpa of setup. Anyone who thinks its too broken and can be convincing with it could chamge it to only one orunaye per turn does it, but since only brutal influence, exile, and cesawayo matter, im not sure. Darby is the only player whos made me think orun is even playable. Nobody has made me see aye as more than a good proxy card yet.

> wesile wrote: > Static Virtue > Master. > Requires a ready Laibon. Choose a Laibon you control. If this Laibon was moved to your ready region during your last influence phase, then for every two capacity above 4 this Laibon has, you may move one Aye and one Orun from your hand or library to this Laibon. Otherwise, you may move one Aye or one Orun from your hand or library to this Laibon. Shuffle afterward. > > Instead of complicating stuff why don't you just change this card to: > > Requires a ready Laibon. Choose a Laibon you control. If this Laibon was moved to your ready region during your last influence phase, then for every two capacity above 4 this Laibon has, you may move one Aye and one Orun from your hand or library (or ash heap) to this Laibon. Otherwise, you may move one Aye or one Orun from your hand or library (or ash heap) to this Laibon. Shuffle afterward. > I would even go : Requires a ready Laibon. Choose a Laibon you control. If this Laibon was moved to your ready region during your last influence phase, then for every two capacity above 4 this Laibon has, you may move one Aye or one Orun from your hand or library (or ash heap) to this Laibon. Otherwise, you may move one Aye or one Orun from your hand or library (or ash heap) to this Laibon. Shuffle afterward. Because you rarely want to play both Aye and Orun in the same deck. Also, I would remove the silly burn clauses no one ever remembers on Aye and Orun (those that are not capacity related).

> FrançoisV wrote: > Requires a ready Laibon. Choose a Laibon you control. If this Laibon was moved to your ready region during your last influence phase, then for every two capacity above 4 this Laibon has, you may move one Aye or one Orun from your hand or library (or ash heap) to this Laibon. Otherwise, you may move one Aye or one Orun from your hand or library (or ash heap) to this Laibon. Shuffle afterward. > > Because you rarely want to play both Aye and Orun in the same deck. > > Also, I would remove the silly burn clauses no one ever remembers on Aye and Orun (those that are not capacity related). > There is still quite a bit of redundant text on that. Static Virtue Master Choose a Laibon you control and for every capacity above 4 this Laibon has, you may move 1 Aye or 1 Orun from your hand, ash heap or library to that Laibon. Shuffle afterward if your library was searched. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Ashur wrote: > > > Squidalot wrote: > > > > > Ashur wrote: > > > I would prefer a more simple errata/new rule. Something like: > > > > > > During your untap phase, you may search your hand, library of ash heap for a Aye or Orun card to play on each of your Laibon. > > > > > > > > i'm not sure if i'd want 3 AYE to hit the table this quickly on multiple minions... > > > OK. Say 1 card only then? Or is that too weak? My point was that I don´t want a new rule to be 20 paragraphs long. And I don´t like errata. I also like rules that look like other rules (in this case the imbued-thing) > I really like this solution (searching for one to put on a Laibon). Simple and elegant, it would be enough to make them more playable but wouldn't break anything.

Overall I agree with the fact that there are problems dealing with the Aye/Orun mechanic, but am rather surprised, especially with the Reverend's observations and Hugh's rather myopic fact gathering, that a version of an Aye deck was not mentioned that has won 3 tournaments including a 24 player week of nightmares outing (by the way, the only tournament table I've ever sat in with Mr. Angseesing) that included 14 to 15 Ayes in every rendition. Aye does offer a means to avoid a Deep Song rush and, with 3, another wake option. Orun has its advantages but i do not believe that Aye (other than with Cesewayo adv) is the less effective one of the two.

> Robert wrote: > Overall I agree with the fact that there are problems dealing with the Aye/Orun mechanic, but am rather surprised, especially with the Reverend's observations and Hugh's rather myopic fact gathering, that a version of an Aye deck was not mentioned that has won 3 tournaments including a 24 player week of nightmares outing (by the way, the only tournament table I've ever sat in with Mr. Angseesing) that included 14 to 15 Ayes in every rendition. Aye does offer a means to avoid a Deep Song rush and, with 3, another wake option. Orun has its advantages but i do not believe that Aye (other than with Cesewayo adv) is the less effective one of the two. > Im not saying its useless, i am however saying that orun has cooler toys, and also that aye, as the part of the in rpgthat makes a laibon closer to the human side of things, kinda got the same treatment as the grandest trick, its notcas cool as unhuman stuff, ir as useful

Fetching one aye or orun in ash heap, hand or library when a Laibon is put into ready region from influence and placing it on that vampire is good for me. It slightly unclogs the mechanic without too much effort. Also, you could make Aye/orun playable on uncontrolled Laibon. That would be nice and quicken the setup while not unbalancing the game. I can easily picture my stupid orun weenie (voting) deck working far better with those two mechanics. And having seen good decks relying on high orun/aye, i can picture them as better too, but not overpowered: these need big minions, so the gain is limited. There is still the problem of minion cards that use orun and aye, but this needs to be addressed - somehow - with a good dose of game design and aspirin. Playing Laibon clans should give a different feeling from playing camarilla, sabbat and independant clans. But honestly, with minor amendments, Aye&Orun will be almost good. Other issues need addressing: -> Trophies -> Crappy clans (samedi, harbingers, assamites et al) What the game needs is a little bit of careful rebalancing so that more things work. Basically, the archetypes are too entrenched and too strong to let "outsider decks" win. Let's start with amending rules rather discreetly. -> TL;DR: Don't make too many errata on cards, don't go towards complex systems, don't give a thousand card ideas. Keep it simple.

Honeatly, the archetypes can stay entrenched, the other stuff needs to suck less. Im all aboit changing rules so that only one extra mpa can happen in a turn. Im all about chamging cards. Veles hunt would be playable if not for dt kilking it. Threading the path of orpheous tapping its target makes it shit-tastic. Redlist is a problem, due to setup. Action to make redlist, hten have to use mpa to mark or use a rush to gain trophies, half of which, such as discipline or progeny, take a deck themselves to utilize properly. Not to mention figureing out how to burn minions means votes, lots of agg, or amaranth with an archon or ariadne/ muaziz. Research and development are great for combos, if not for being a bigass undersupported combo itsself. Gangrel, HoS, abominations, nagaraja, !gangrel, and gargoyles are all painfully impossible to win with. Nagaraja dont NEED help, since le dihn tho, anu, and that bh lady are great, the clans scarce, and thats all you should expect. But a primary clan like gangrel sucking is just bad. Bad planning, bad attempts to corrwct, bad reprinting, bad. Gargoyles...... tupdog is terribly overpowered. So, gargoyles are thought to bexgood. Untrue, tupdog is, not the clan. Indy gargoyles, as in not slave, are impossible to win with. Yes, they have in the past, but barely, and ive asked those players to find this out. Someday when i dont have to post via cellphone, ill submit help for garfoyles. But they suck, and are allefedly cam aligned according to vtm20. Abominations still are just lorrie as aupport or the bh 8 cap. !Gangrel could stop sucking post DM, we will see. Laibon arent bad. Orun and aye arent supported well, thats the only small snag there is for laibon.

Then there's the next chunk... Making Aye/Orun cards that are worth playing for Low amounts of Aye and Orun PLUS that scale well to higher amounts. Ordinary Visage Action Modifier Requires a Laibon. Only usable when an action is announced. This Laibon may tap X Aye to gain +X stealth, where X is less than 3. Alternatively, this Laibon may tap 3 Aye to make this action unblockable by mortal allies. Based on the effects of Aye from VtMEK p83 Supernatural Visage Action Modifier Requires a Laibon. Only usable when an action is announced. This Laibon may tap X Orun to choose X younger vampires or mortal allies who cannot block this action. Based on the effects of Orun from VtMEK p84 Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

Ancestor's Vigilance Reaction Requires Auspex. Requires a Laibon. This vampire gains +1 intercept on actions, +2 if they have any Orun. As above, but this vampire may burn 1 blood to cancel 1 card requiring [chi], [obf] or [obt] as it is played. They may use this ability twice if they have any Orun. Spirit Ties Action Modifier 1 blood Requires Auspex. Requires a Laibon. If this Laibon has 3 or more Orun reduce the cost of this card by 1 blood. Only usable when a younger vampire is attempting to block. That block attempt fails and that vampire cannot make another attempt this action. As above and +1 bleed. You cannot play other action modifiers to increase this bleed. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

I really like the Rule Change to Convictions idea for Aye and Orun. To play them at each untap phase from hand and ash heap, and then search out from hand or library when coming into play, would be a nice compromise of the two ideas floating here. It already meshes with the already familiar Imbued rule for Convictions, while shifting Aye/Orun from being "three part masters to do anything cool" to being a recursive sect benefit. However given their threshold requirement, I doubt it would be as disruptive as convictions, especially since Laibon still need blood to leave torpor. During your untap phase, you may play 1 Aye or Orun on each of your Laibon. You may play these cards from your hand or from your ash heap. When a Laibon enters play, he may gain 1 Aye or Orun from your library, hand or ash heap. Searching out your library is slowed at the speed of influencing out vampires (or Bamba), yet already present Aye and Orun in your hand or ash heap can speed up game setup. With that rule change you can also leave them as master trifles, as you can stack three onto one vampire upon the start of their first turn after influenced out. Influence out gets one, start of next turn gets another, and you can play one -- then you're ready to go!

The RPG mechanics reason for why you shouldn't make them a 'Laibon Conviction' is purely because they are Paths. For those of you who may have dabbled in VtM:Bloodlines on computer... it is a double-humanity rating. You don't just wake up on Thursday night with more Aye... you earn it. So I wouldn't want to make them anything like a conviction. Conviction is spiritual mojo points, potentially far closer to a Mana Points idea than a Path rating. Yes, these two cards need a more accessible way to enter play. Yes, Aye needs something far more impressive. Yes, maybe none of the ideas proposed already has enough gusto in them to make them worthwhile. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

And thats why aye and orun shoulda been path type cards that go on a minion instead of "stack for a bigger hat" style cards. But, until the DT gets around to a laibon set, im not sure any change is worth making yet.

Putting them as a "One on a Minion" then gets you the next problem of "What do you waste to drive the Path?" At the moment its MPAs and Cardslots. Would you prefer to make it actions? Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Putting them as a "One on a Minion" then gets you the next problem of "What do you waste to drive the Path?" > > At the moment its MPAs and Cardslots. Would you prefer to make it actions? > Id prefer redo the entire concept, if we were in print. Since we arent, i dont see a pressing need to change the rules about them, but the fact is its alot of work now, and with minimal payoff. If we are looking at redoing it, or changing rules, several viable, or almost viable sugtestions have been made. My primary issue right now is its clunky, thematically doesnt mesh with other representations of morality trait stuff, and we have limited motivation to use it. Make them like a dagger (one from yoir hand gets one from your ash heap) and they get more playable, but still not great.

my anecdote: the one time I made an Orun deck that didn't feel totally clunky was based around Umdava (Laibon magaji: You may use a master phase action to search your library or ash heap for an Aye or Orun to place on a ready Laibon.) it worked out pretty well, since I could get them in play relatively quickly -- one from hand, use trifle MPA to search for another, it was almost like cycling convictions. the downsides were spending 9 pool for the vampire, plus 2 more for a Parthenon just to make sure I don't get handjammed, and having to build the deck around Akunanse and Umdava, which means no Brutal Influence. so I used Invoke Poison Glands to do 7 agg hand strikes. even though i could get them in play with this method, there wasn't much to DO with them. they have maybe 3 or 4 cool unique tricks, and everything else could've just been replaced by existing discipline cards. but for the cards that do matter, now it's tricky to rebalance the mechanic because it'll be too easy to get the big payoff from Exile and Brutal Influence. it could end up either too sucky or too strong. LSJ seemed to like "resource cards" a little bit too much, since he bolted so many of them onto VTES's mechanics.

> Haze wrote: > LSJ seemed to like "resource cards" a little bit too much, since he bolted so many of them onto VTES's mechanics. > Could you explain a little bit more what you mean by resource cards, and why they're not desirable past a certain point? This sounds really interesting, but I'm not quite catching your meaning.

> Legendre wrote: > Could you explain a little bit more what you mean by resource cards, > Cards that primarily provide a resource to be used to pay for other things, such as Aye, Orun, and Conviction, rather than being a particularly useful effect in their own right. See also Land in Magic: the Gathering. Note that Land-style cards were something Garfield explicitly chose to avoid in V:TES, regarding having a third of your deck being a 'dull' card as a design he didn't want to repeat. Aye, Orun and Conviction aren't strictly like the basic land cards in MtG - which literally provided one mana and nothing else - but they are clearly closer to that model than, say, Govern the Unaligned is. In a design sense, there's nothing outright wrong with land-style cards - Magic shows that it can work just fine as a design mechanic. Garfield's objection appeared to be more one of how 'fun' it felt to draw a land vs how fun it felt to draw a Sneaky Goblin. A variety of subsequent CCGs have attempted interesting ways around the problem, such as multifunctional cards - either explicitly or implicitly. For example, in some games, there were literally two entirely separate functions on a card - one dull and bread-and-butter, the other exciting. Other games do things like turn the library itself into a resource. Still others just try to avoid the concept of 'resources' in anything like the same way. Where there can be problems are when resource cards hit a paradigm that largely didn't originally support them. The different speeds at which the decks operate, and the different level of power that they can maintain, can be difficult to integrate well. For example, Aye and Orun are typically quite slow to build up (making it harder for a deck to exploit them well) and also compete for Master slots, nor do you get any for free. By contrast, when Imbued first hit the scene, their resources were much quicker to deploy and could get a significant headstart on other decks by having semi-permanent abilities available from the word go. Post the ban of Edge Explosion, the Imbued are at a much more reasonable level - there's now, for example, significant more thought required about which ones to play in order to get good use of Champion while still being able to play Determine, and that sort of decision. Most remaining Imbued gripes typically focus on how they don't interact with 'normal' cards that are trying to hinder vampires, rather than their own raw power per se.

The latest PCK set, Champions of Cagn, was focused on the Laibon sect and had improving the Aye and Orun concept as one of its chief goals. Our blog is here: pckvtes.wordpress.com/ Our Set PDFs page is here: pckvtes.wordpress.com/set-pdfs/ We hope you have fun exploring these card ideas. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

jamesatzephyr explains it well, though there's a lot of other cards I would fit in the definition. cards that seem to exist just to clog up decks so you can run its own gimmick. * Trophies - you need a couple of these put into play to make hunting Red List worth it. usually also requires some other cards to turn a target vampire red list. not very popular. * Gehenna events - to some extent. the bigger ones require other gehenna events to be used, so you sometimes see them all played to fuel each other. except Ennoia, for some strange reason. * Choir - only works with itself. pile a bunch of them in one turn or they have no effect. * Anarch - you require the cards to go anarch before you can play anarch cards. there is "going anarch the hard way", but it runs rather slow without the cards. this only became popular once you could skip the library cards and put Anarch Converts in the crypt instead. * Black Hand - at first it needed cards to turn vampires black hand. but over time there's enough vampires that already begin as BH so you can build a whole crypt of them, and the concept is playable (much like Anarch Convert crypts). I've never seen Blooding or Mustajib used once. * Spell of Life & Khazar's Diary - collect the whole set to do something unique! but you better draw them fast, or else your deck is just spinning its wheels. * Ashur Tablets - collect all three for a reward. if you don't reliably draw all three they're worthless. yawn. (is it any wonder why this card went under the radar for years?) * Research & Development - could this be the new Ashur Tablets?! probably not. cycling your library for these cards so you can search your library for other cards is redundant. * Striga / Maleficia - I would argue these count as resources, as they are pseudo-disciplines that never appear on a crypt card. you can't build a crypt around them, so you have to draw the masters early or sit around. so, there seems to be one of these in almost every expansion set, like throwing ideas at a wall. even WOTC tried to make a few themselves, like Corruption and War Ghouls. Corruption was obviously terrible, but War Ghoul was clever and fun because its resource was already a part of the game. the base game of VTES is built around the resources of blood, disciplines, and sometimes titles. people find these fun to manage because you can get all of them on the crypt cards themselves, though it's always an option to enable them with library cards if you need to. it's possible that the crypt is more important than the library in VTES. I'm not saying that trying to add resources in card form is bad, though it usually does turn out very clunky because of how card-drawing works in VTES. in the above list, the resources that are popular are the ones where you can skip the library entirely (and Ashur Tablets, which "skip" the library by feeding into the cycle of Liquidation + Anthelios). The lesson here is that adding a resource outside of blood/disciplines/titles makes it very hard to gauge its power level, since it's a different curve from the rest of the game. they're usually too weak, until a slight nudge suddenly makes them too powerful.

> Jeff wrote: > The latest PCK set, Champions of Cagn, was focused on the Laibon sect and had improving the Aye and Orun concept as one of its chief goals. > > Our blog is here: pckvtes.wordpress.com/ > > Our Set PDFs page is here: pckvtes.wordpress.com/set-pdfs/ > > We hope you have fun exploring these card ideas. > Jeff, this thread exists to confirm that those cards don't provide the solution you claim. Earlier posts in this thread, if you had read them and decided to make a contribution instead of an advertisement, would have helped shown that problem. They don't: a) Provide enough power to offset the 'resourcing time'. b) Decrease the 'resourcing time'. c) Tend to have the same flaw of burning the resources to operate. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

Haze, Trophy = Yes a Resource-type card Gehenna Events = Could be considered a resource-type card Spell of Life/Khazar's Diary = Yeah a Resource-type card Striga/Maleficia = Yeah more of a Resource-type card Anarch/Black Hand = No more than gaining titles or Archon/Alastor Choir = Yes and no. If you're using this card, you're dropping a LOT of them in a deck. A lot of the enabler cards appeared after the Design group (LSJ & ???) realised that the cards weren't as influential at changing the metagame as they had hoped. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Jeff, this thread exists to confirm that those cards don't provide the solution you claim. Earlier posts in this thread, if you had read them and decided to make a contribution instead of an advertisement, would have helped shown that problem. > > They don't: > a) Provide enough power to offset the 'resourcing time'. > b) Decrease the 'resourcing time'. > c) Tend to have the same flaw of burning the resources to operate. > That's all your opinion. And no, I don't care to inflate your opinion of your own opinions. I still invite others to check out the solutions we have come up with at the links above and that in my sig. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Haze, > > Trophy = Yes a Resource-type card > Gehenna Events = Could be considered a resource-type card > Spell of Life/Khazar's Diary = Yeah a Resource-type card > Striga/Maleficia = Yeah more of a Resource-type card > > Anarch/Black Hand = No more than gaining titles or Archon/Alastor > Choir = Yes and no. If you're using this card, you're dropping a LOT of them in a deck. > > A lot of the enabler cards appeared after the Design group (LSJ & ???) realised that the cards weren't as influential at changing the metagame as they had hoped. > I think these are valid points, but since we are scrutinizing orun and aye, i think the Payoff from investing in orun/aye when compared to other stuff is important. This threads old, and ive already stated other stuff matters more than Orun/Aye getting improved, along with the minimal reasons to run them(and no, a non-legal set having "answers" to said issue isnt helping the conversation, since its quite plain vekn, the people who are relevant to things happening, arent allowed to use them so avoid even looking just to dodge nonsense) So, if we see the less than half a dozen reasons to run orun and aye(vamp specials, brutal influence, exile, etc) do we decide its worth the time/card/toolup investment to keep it, or doea it make more sense to kick around ideas for changing it? Anarch is worth the setup, its commonly just converts or masters, rarely an action, to make a vamp anarch, then you get some aweaome toys(crimethinc, masters, rev council, combat, neat 3ways) and some junk as,well. Trophy is harder to do, but doable Striga and mal are harder, but the do give strong incentive to set up being able to use them Research and developement are less good. As i said, its in theory good for a combo deck, except that its a clunky combo itsself. Now orun and aye arent as good as most of what i mentioned, but might be on par with striga amd mal. Do we think better incentive, or rules,changes, or both is the best answer. I like synergy and combos, but even i see ALOT of moving parts without both rules chanfe(to text of the orun and aye mostly) and maybe some incentive down the road in form of cards(that can be played and matter) Thoughts?

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Anarch/Black Hand = No more than gaining titles or Archon/Alastor > Choir = Yes and no. If you're using this card, you're dropping a LOT of them in a deck. > > A lot of the enabler cards appeared after the Design group (LSJ & ???) realised that the cards weren't as influential at changing the metagame as they had hoped. > hrmm, yeah, I take it back on Choir. it's more of a Shambling Hordes type of card that combos off of other copies of itself. the card Harmony almost makes it feel like a resource-based combo, but that came long after the original design. I wouldn't consider Anarch/BH to be like titles. from the beginning they were definitely designed as "put 8 Galaric's Legacy in your deck so you can play IMPROVISED TACTICS yay" but they evolved into something much better later on. they're more like additional sects, in a weird overlapping way. they even have their own "promotions" like Baron and Seraph.

What I mean by working like titles is the classic Weenie Pre or Legacy of Pander deck. Drops minions out who grab titles and by the time the other decks are up and playing cards, you are rolling along going forward. Anarch/BH tech has always been similar. Get out cheap goons, grab your Anarch or BH keyword and then roll on. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Haze wrote: > I wouldn't consider Anarch/BH to be like titles. from the beginning they were definitely designed as "put 8 Galaric's Legacy in your deck so you can play IMPROVISED TACTICS yay" but they evolved into something much better later on. they're more like additional sects, in a weird overlapping way. they even have their own "promotions" like Baron and Seraph. > Anarchs, mostly yes. There was - of course - the default built-in action, but that was also expensive in terms of blood and actions wasted (given it didn't have an innate untap). Black Hand is a bit less so, because there were quite a few native Black Hand vampires swirling round, even in the first set - roughly two per 'proper' Sabbat clan, 1 for Pander, 1 for Assamite, 1 for Setites. But there was also some discipline coherence across some of the vampires, making it plausible to put together a couple of decks that have Black Hand as the second or third pseudo-discipline. Auspex combos in particular come out of the first BH set with a decent-ish clutch of vampires.

I think that perhaps more cards exploiting Orun/Aye might be a way to consider. And synergy should be the key there. For example, Akunanse lack "anti-combat ends" tech. You can put 8-12 oruns and as many Supernatural Resistances for an action/strike canceling tech. You can replace some of your strikes with Invoke Poison Glands. So, essentially you spend like 20+ card slots for something what out of clan inferior potence can provide with half the number of cards. The problem here is not obtaining useful capabilities, but lack of synergy for them. Take Guruhi for another example. You could use both potence and presence Orun power-cards, but how would you pass them even past even most casual intercept? Perhaps you could get stealth from anywhere (please note, that all Laibon clans lack reliable stealth)? Yeah, but from Aye only. Or then again, just use out of clan disciplines for freed-up card slots. Ok, can you beat anyone up with those 2 combatty in clan disciplines? Yes and no, lack of defensive combat would probably mean you reach torpor faster than you set up your Aye/Orun tech... Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.

Well... Making the assumption of ideal card flow and no other crypt acceleration... (which is a HUGE long shot). 1) To get 8 Aye/Orun requires at LEAST 4 Master Phases AND a minion to put them on. 2) To play 8 Aye/Orun requires an 8 cap vampire, which requires on average 2.75 to 2.6 turns to bring out (i.e. there is a 1 in 4 or 2 in 5 chance of you being in seats 1-3 on a table). This makes this now Turn 7 or 8 before your minion can exploit their Aye/Orun cards. Most of the Aye/Orun actions result in losing Aye & Orun, so you get one action at this 'ideal' 8 Aye/Orun state and must continually play Aye/Orun to maintain it. That is a huge cost in time. Especially if the minion can do very little before then. This is the big speed problem, not so much drawing out Aye & Orun but how many you can load onto a minion and when. So my next thought is... Aye Type: Master Master: trifle. Put this card on a Laibon. You may put any other Aye in your hand before drawing to replace this card on this minion as part of this Master Phase Action. This Laibon may tap this card to cancel a Frenzy card played on him or her as it is played. This Laibon may burn a blood and tap three of his or her Aye to be able to play reaction cards and attempt to block as if untapped for the current action. If this Laibon burns a minion, equipment, or location in play, he or she burns one Aye. Burn this card if this Laibon has more Orun and Aye than his or her capacity. Orun Type: Master Master: trifle. Put this card on a Laibon. You may put any other Orun in your hand before drawing to replace this card on this minion as part of this Master Phase Action.For non-Orun cards played by Methuselahs other than this Laibon's controller, this Laibon is considered to have 2 additional capacity. A Laibon gets an additional vote for every three Orun he or she has. If this Laibon successfully bleeds for more than 2 or successfully performs a action against a non-mortal minion, he or she burns one Orun. Burn this card if this Laibon has more Orun and Aye than his or her capacity. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > 1) To get 8 Aye/Orun requires at LEAST 4 Master Phases AND a minion to put them on.....This makes this now Turn 7 or 8 before your minion can exploit their Aye/Orun cards. > Sorry, but I need to chime in here. :::RANT ON::: This timing is absurd. First, if you're running large minions with perfect deck flow, no acceleration and no access to bounce, you're getting exactly what you deserve. Aye, Orun, Black Hand, Anarch, whatever, you're boned before seating if this is your design philosophy. Second. You do not need 8 Orun to begin effectively using the card. 3 copies + Brutal Influence at is equivalent to Govern the Unaligned, which few would say is a bad card. It gets the same intrinsic +1 stealth as Govern and Majesty is as much an in-clan option for Guruhi as it is for Ventrue. Brutal does not burn Orun used at superior, so decay is not an issue. Beyond 3 copies but well before the 8 you suggest is needed, Brutal Influence becomes grossly overpowered. I've personally had 2 copies of that card completely finance a free 9 cap minion in the 5th turn of play - in tournament play. This doesn't even get into vampires accumulating Orun, going Anarch/Sabbat, then Brutal Influence bleeding without Orun decay (if you're not Laibon when you successfully bleed for 12, you don't burn Orun). Clearly, this is one (the only?) example of how powerful these accumulated resource cards can be. But the potential is there if players can find ways to leverage them. Third, the arguments don't even mention ancillary (but impactful) effects of Aye/Orun. - I've personally accepted a mid-game Golconda worth 25 pool, in a tournament. - I've had 2nd seeded finals opponents hold Reins an entire game knowing they can't use it unless I'm ousted, even though it would give them their first VP. - Three Accumulated Aye is burn-option stealth + multiaction + card cycling, though only Wedge/Scythe have even bothered to try it. Other constructs are easier to balance, so people gravitate towards them instead. - Heavily centralized Aye is very effective in (tournament unproven) Adv-Ceswayo designs, but I personally despised my version of that deck so much I ripped it apart after a single test game. :::RANT OFF::: This is not a clear argument that Aye/Orun are good, because in almost every other (non-Brutal) case the payoff is unlikely to be worth the huge overhead, implied risk and complex MMPA-based deck-building associated with centralized Aye/Orun. But I will suggest that opening the throttle on this class of cards is not an approach I can support - it creates a huge swing in power, as we saw when Edge Explosion allowed easy access to accumulated resource cards (and yeah, I might have found ways to exploit that too). Instead, I suggest that creating more interesting things to do with only a few copies of Aye/Orun is a more sound approach - and we just have to wait for the Design Team to hit a Laibon expansion for that to happen. Regards.

> TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote: > But I will suggest that opening the throttle on this class of cards is not an approach I can support - it creates a huge swing in power, as we saw when Edge Explosion allowed easy access to accumulated resource cards (and yeah, I might have found ways to exploit that too). > > Instead, I suggest that creating more interesting things to do with only a few copies of Aye/Orun is a more sound approach - and we just have to wait for the Design Team to hit a Laibon expansion for that to happen. > Treating Aye and Orun less like a Conviction-esque resource and more like Malefica or Striga - essentially, a trait to be acquired - might well be a reasonable option, with the occasional bonus for having 'superior' (2, 3...) Orun/Aye. So fewer Dusk Work, High Aye and Neebi-type abilities, and a few more straightforward cards.

> TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote: > ... > Beyond 3 copies but well before the 8 you suggest is needed, Brutal Influence becomes grossly overpowered. I've personally had 2 copies of that card completely finance a free 9 cap minion in the 5th turn of play - in tournament play. > > This doesn't even get into vampires accumulating Orun, going Anarch/Sabbat, then Brutal Influence bleeding without Orun decay (if you're not Laibon when you successfully bleed for 12, you don't burn Orun). > That's an amazing start, 5th turn free 9 cap by two Brutal Influences, and something I would see as an outlier experience. That'd require influencing out an older than 9 cap vampire in two turns (awesome draw of Zillah's Valley, etc) and pulling off on turn 3 either Orun + Static Virtue to start a brutal down for 4, or vomit of Oruns on turn 3 and 4 to Brutal down for 4 then 5 on turns 4 and 5 respectively. Very hard to do even with heavy deck dedication. That said, pre-Ebony Kingdoms I used Ugadja and multiact to vomit forth an 8 cap with Founders + Ugajda special + Enchant down by turn 6, so... but nothing for me to insist Ugadja is the hotness. That said, I learned something new about non-decaying Orun. Trading out capacity bump and extra votes for non-decay is interesting. > TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote: > > Clearly, this is one (the only?) example of how powerful these accumulated resource cards can be. But the potential is there if players can find ways to leverage them. > > - Three Accumulated Aye is burn-option stealth + multiaction + card cycling, though only Wedge/Scythe have even bothered to try it. Other constructs are easier to balance, so people gravitate towards them instead. > Already did that, too. That was post-EK Ugadja Aye. Tapping 3 Aye for Dusk Work really puts the brakes on what essentially is a free superior Freak Drive. Often that Aye standing wake effect was worth more. And though High Aye is nice, the meta has been getting crazy high permacept in response to bounce-uber-alles. What once was nice for vote stealth I find easier to run weaker, more under the radar votes. And still it takes to around mid-game to even get into the swing of things with those support cards. > TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote: > This is not a clear argument that Aye/Orun are good, because in almost every other (non-Brutal) case the payoff is unlikely to be worth the huge overhead, implied risk and complex MMPA-based deck-building associated with centralized Aye/Orun. > > But I will suggest that opening the throttle on this class of cards is not an approach I can support - it creates a huge swing in power, as we saw when Edge Explosion allowed easy access to accumulated resource cards (and yeah, I might have found ways to exploit that too). > > Instead, I suggest that creating more interesting things to do with only a few copies of Aye/Orun is a more sound approach - and we just have to wait for the Design Team to hit a Laibon expansion for that to happen. > > Regards. > Yeah, the other options are not all that great. However here is where I differ on design. Instead of shrugging and abandoning that which was already made in print, and just moving to the next hotness, I prefer "un-wallpapering" the already existing cards. I see it easier to ramp up the gas to get the mechanic and already made resources up to desired speed, then culling back problem cards. This opens a greater card pool than over-adjusting for suck in making new cards. Further, as people adjust for handicap, it becomes even easier to overshoot and create "teh broken"; seen this countless times in various CCGs over the years. It is easier to raise the tide on all boats than specialize boats into a narrow range for the port. One retains breadth of play, which is the very lifeblood of CCGs (check L5R's recent flop-tastic efforts in Emperor edition, when the game stagnated into the same narrow band of competitiveness for each stronghold). The other just ramps up the sniper scopes with all-purpose rounds and golden bullets, if you will.