So recently, we had people suggesting that melee weapons might suck a bit and benefit from something to improve them , but which didn't also make guns super, super awesome.
I've had a few ideas rattling round in the back of my head for a while, and thought I'd share them, and see if they sparked any ideas for anyone else.
Quick points: Obviously, anything requiring a melee weapon becomes quite easily playable with Weighted Walking Stick. That might be a problem, but it might not. I'm not suggesting all the cards should get into the game. It's entirely feasible that you could cherry pick one or two. The fencing names were chosen so that a barely-sentient snake in a leather jacket on a bike can be a fencing master with a baseball bat, for added WoD immersion.
I wanted to find something along the lines of Supressing Fire (this minion with a melee weapon helps his mate by...), but couldn't find anything that quite felt right. Maybe a Bodyguard or something (give a friend extra intercept, tap to prevent some damage?). Nothing felt quite right - why do I need a melee weapon to be a bodyguard? why not a gun? why not my claws? But maybe something along those lines.
Game need: melee weapons need a shot in the arm.
Art notes: most of them fit some sort of sword play situation. A guy thwacking a guy with a sword, an axe smacking into a quarterstaff, that sort of thing.
Maestro
Master: archetype. Trifle.
Put this card on a ready vampire you control. This vampire has +1 strength when striking with a melee weapon. In combat, if this vampire chooses a melee weapon strike and the opponent ends combat as a strike, you may tap this card (after combat ends) to deal two unpreventable damage to the opponent. A vampire may have only one archetype.
The hope was to give some anti-S:CE tech, without it being totally cookie cutter.
Balestra
Combat
Requires a melee weapon
Strike: +1 damage with a melee weapon, with an optional maneuver, usable only to maneuver to close range
Obvious utility.
Sparring Partner
Action Modifier, 1 blood
Usable after a successful action to equip a melee weapon.
Search your hand, library and/or ash-heap for another copy of the same [implicitly non-unique] melee weapon, and select another ready vampire you control. That vampire equips the second copy of the melee weapon (meeting requirements and paying costs as normal); this is not an action.
Make equipping extra weapons less bothersome, but see En Garde below.
En Garde
+1 stealth action
This vampire enters combat with a ready minion controlled by your predator or prey. Additionally, if this vampire does not possess a melee weapon, choose a non-unique melee weapon in your hand or ash-heap. If this action is successful, this vampire equips that melee weapon (paying costs and meeting requirements as usual), before combat begins.
Also make equipping weapons less bothersome. When you already have a weapon, it's a rush that's still potentially interesting (+1 stealth, minion doesn't need to be tapped) but less versatile than other rushes (predator/prey only, no maneuver etc.)
Touche
Combat
Requires a melee weapon.
Only usable at the end of a round in which this vampire successfully inflicted 2 or more damage with a melee weapon on an opposing minion. That minion's controller discards two cards at random (redraw afterwards). A minion can play only one Touche per round.
Touche is the one I'm least happy with - I wanted to find something that was "This vampire has inflicted some damage, so get a nice bonus" along the lines of Disarm or Pulled Fangs. Card discarding is mechanically a somewhat novel angle for combat, but I'm not sure it's doing anything compelling.
En Garde is way too strong, stealth rush with no requirements at all, and isn't even restricted at all in what minions it can rush (barring silly cross table shennanigans), AND it also works as a concealed weapon on top of that. That would basically wallpaper all the other rushes with no requirements even if you don't have any melee weapons in your deck.
The real problem is that melee weapons suck for their cost when compared with guns.
I would nerf the cards so they make melee weapons easier to retrieve.
Eg.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> Maestro
> Master: archetype. Trifle.
> Put this card on a ready vampire you control. This vampire gets first strike when striking with a melee weapon. This vampire can burn this card to search your library for a melee weapon and equip it as a +1 stealth action
>
Burning the card is part of the cost and doesn't happen if blocked.
Inflicting +1 damage with melee weapon or striking with first strike can be two options.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> Balestra
> Combat
> Requires a melee weapon
> Strike: +2 damage with a melee weapon, with an optional maneuver, usable only to maneuver to close range
>
I tweaked it because it was weak because of his opportunity cost. And ammo do better.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> Sparring Partner
> Action Modifier, 1 blood
> Usable after a successful action to equip a non-unique melee weapon. Only usable by a ready untappd vampire other than the acting minion you control.
> Search your hand, library and/or ash-heap for another copy of the same melee weapon. This vampire taps and equips the second copy of the melee weapon (requirements and cost apply as normal; shuffle afterward).
>
Would make it an action modifier played by another vampire for simplicity.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> En Garde
> +1 stealth action
> This vampire enters combat with a ready minion controlled by your predator or prey. Additionally, if this vampire does not possess a melee weapon, choose a non-unique melee weapon in your hand or ash-heap. If this action is successful, this vampire equips that melee weapon (paying costs and meeting requirements as usual), before combat begins.
>
> Also make equipping weapons less bothersome. When you already have a weapon, it's a rush that's still potentially interesting (+1 stealth, minion doesn't need to be tapped) but less versatile than other rushes (predator/prey only, no maneuver etc.)
>
It can be a good idea, but the card is overpowered as it is.
EDIT: I missed the intent that was that the card can't be used without weapons.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Klaital wrote:
> En Garde is way too strong, stealth rush with no requirements at all, and isn't even restricted at all in what minions it can rush (barring silly cross table shennanigans), AND it also works as a concealed weapon on top of that.
>
What I'm trying to do is strike a balance between a card that would be good to start with and a card that's still usable in the late game. So many submissions are things like "This would be awesome if it turns up in your first 15 cards, but to do that you have to stack 6-8 of them, and the other 5-7 are going to make you stab yourself in the face, over and over."
(I'm not saying I've succeeded.)
> Klaital wrote:
> That would basically wallpaper all the other rushes with no requirements even if you don't have any melee weapons in your deck.
>
If you don't have any melee weapons in your deck (and therefore in your hand or ash heap, or already equipped), you can't play the card. If you don't have a melee weapon already equipped, the Concealed Weapon aspect isn't worded as being optional. (This was intentional.)
One thing I did consider was making it only +1 stealth when it was also an equip action, but that felt a bit clumsy. And I was wary of removing the stealth entirely, because various decks that would like melee weapons lack any significant stealth (or other options). But +1 stealth only on the equip might be doable. Or possibly restrict the rush - prey only, untapped only, tapped only, something like that.
The problem i see is melee weapons suck against combat ends and grapple. Grapple is good against sce, psyche trumps sce, but unless you use a deck just geared toward j's axe, argent baton, crimson sentinle, and or banshee ironwail, and probably using celerity and fortitude on assamites, i really would ALWAYS rather use a gun. A 44, to be precise. Any improvements to melee combat has to:
A. Be able to deal with sce
B. Be able to not suck against grapple
C. Be at least as good a choice as a 44
The only non unique melee weapon worth running is wws. I use meat hook alot as well. I feel its the best melee weapon you can conceal out.
Now, a strike like:
Cleaving Blow:
Strike with a melee weapon for strength +1 damage. Alternately, strike with a melee weapon and if the opposing minion is striking to end combat, they get no initial strike this round, and use an additional strike to end combat.
If the opposing minion plays a card restricting your choice of strikes, you may still strike with this melee weapon at-1 strength.
But, its a subject we could work on.
James, I like your ideas. This is the natural and necessary direction of melee weapon combat.
Maestro: I like Ankha's edit, but really Ankha's and James's versions do two different things. Melee weapons still need an answer to S:CE. Potence is the natural adjunct to melee weapons, but Potence's answer to S:CE is Immortal Grapple, which doesn't go with melee weapons. Therefore you either need a melee weapon master or generic minion card that deals with S:CE like James's or you need a Potence card that allows a vampire to get past S:CE and strike with a melee weapon.
(Valeren and Quietus also have a melee weapon focus, but !Salubri have Telepathic Tracking and Assamites have Psyche!.)
Balestra: I've often thought that there should be melee weapons that offer a maneuver to close. This is needed. However, the problem is costing. Giving the balestra +2 damage is way too much or would cost too much. It would a minimum of 2 pool. It's the old problem you see with the guns and the fact that some should really have fractional blood costs.
Maybe we also have to re-examine the costing of other melee weapons. Perhaps Bastard Sword/Butcher Knife should be free, Balestra costs one and then go from there. I know, I know, we can't possibly errata cards, of course, whatevs.
Sparring Partner: nice. I'm not sure I agree with Ankha's suggestion. Why tap the second vampire? As is, there's a significant opportunity cost. You have to have the Sparring Partner card and 2 melee weapons in hand. WWS doesn't require an action to equip and can't be blocked, so Sparring Partner should give a substantive advantage.
En garde: I agree that +1 stealth is too strong. Either a +0 rush with an optional equip or a +1 stealth rush for a minion that already has a melee weapon.
AaronC: Balestra is a combat card, not an equipment card. I think "+2 damage and a maneuver to close" is a perfectly fair card.
Some thoughts on melee weapons in no particular order.
Equipping with them hasn't been a problem since concealed weapon was fixed. There are successful decks leveraging concealed guns, so where are the melee weapon decks?
All melee weapons cost too much by 1 pool.
Guns come with built-in damage prevention via maneuver. This creates a situation where the minion is invincible unless the maneuver is countered. This is good! Melee weapons don't have that benefit, and they are vulnerable to steal/destroy effects, which are almost all close range.
I think the key to making melee weapons viable is to identify an advantage they could have, a niche if you will. Something that makes the choice between a sword and a .44 Magnum an interesting one. Then give it to all melee weapons.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> Maestro
> Master: archetype. Trifle.
> Put this card on a ready vampire you control. This vampire has +1 strength when striking with a melee weapon. In combat, if this vampire chooses a melee weapon strike and the opponent ends combat as a strike, you may tap this card (after combat ends) to deal two unpreventable damage to the opponent. A vampire may have only one archetype.
>
> The hope was to give some anti-S:CE tech, without it being totally cookie cutter.
>
As melee-based CEL and AUS already have an answer to S:CE, how about something along these lines for POT:
Machismo
Combat
Requires: Potence
Cost: 1 blood
Only usable at close range before strikes are chosen.
[pot]: The opposing minion may not Strike: Dodge or Strike: Combat ends this round.
[POT]: As above, and this minion may cancel the effects of a grapple card played by the opposing minion this round (no cost is paid).
Well, at it stands this is probably too good. It would enable Theft of Vitae and Entombment fun, and Rowan Ring would beat pretty much everything...
Here's one I've been thinking of and floated to a few people.
Armed and Dangerous
[Combat] Combat
Only usable before range is determined.
This minion equips with a non-unique melee weapon card from your hand (requirements and cost apply as normal). The minion may pay part or all of the associated pool cost with his or her blood.
Baron of Berkeley
Traditional Combatant
Action
1 blood
+1 stealth
Put this card on the acting vampire. You may also put a non-unique melee weapon on that vampire from your hand, library or ash-heap. As a action which costs 1 blood this vampire may enter combat with an older or titled vampire.
Chivalry
Action
1 blood
+1 stealth. Archetype.
Put this card on the acting vampire. During a combat with a vampire, while this vampire has a melee weapon, they may burn 1 blood to cancel a Strike: Dodge or Strike: Combat Ends as that strike is chosen. This card is turned face down and out of play until your next untap phase is this vampire uses a ranged weapon.
Bravado
Combat
Presence
Only playable before range in the first round of a combat. Frenzy.
The minion playing this card cannot Strike: Combat Ends during this combat.
The opposing minion must burn 1 blood when they maneuver to long range.
The opposing minion must burn 1 blood before declaring any Strike: Combat Ends.
Artwork: One vampire goading the other into attacking them and the other lunging.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
Finesse
1
Requires a vampire with a melee weapon. Only playable before range is determined.
This round, only hand strikes or melee weapon strikes may be used if range is close, Grapple cards cost an additional blood, and hand strikes inflict one less damage.
As , but for the duration of this combat.
As , and maneuvers to long range cost an additional blood this round.
Sabbat. Animals, Wraiths and Zombies Molloy recruits or employs get an additional life.
> AaronC wrote:
> Melee weapons still need an answer to S:CE. Potence is the natural adjunct to melee weapons, but Potence's answer to S:CE is Immortal Grapple, which doesn't go with melee weapons. Therefore you either need a melee weapon master or generic minion card that deals with S:CE like James's or you need a Potence card that allows a vampire to get past S:CE and strike with a melee weapon.
>
just spitballin' here but what about this:
Taunt ()
Only useable before range is determined. Requires a minion with a Melee weapon.
The opposing minion may not Strike: combat ends this round. this minion may burn one blood to extend the duration of this effect until the end of combat. a minion can only play one taunt per combat.
it's rough, don't get me wrong.... but it's an idea.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
> Maestro
> Master: archetype. Trifle.
> Put this card on a ready vampire you control. This vampire has +1 strength when striking with a melee weapon. In combat, if this vampire chooses a melee weapon strike and the opponent ends combat as a strike, you may tap this card (after combat ends) to deal two unpreventable damage to the opponent. A vampire may have only one archetype. [/color][/indent]
>
> The hope was to give some anti-S:CE tech, without it being totally cookie cutter.
>
I think that's a good solution to a hard problem, since preventing SC:E altogether during a combat might just make combat near impossible to deal with for a lot of decks. Seems well-balanced (although it's absolute gold for Jaroslav Pascek).
A card to enter combat with no requirements its to powerful.
Yes, S:CE its a problem to all combat decks that are unable to use Psyche or Grapple cards.
You probably could create something like this to make S:CE more balanced:
Uncontrolled Hate
Gehenna. Do not replace until your next discard phase.
Put this card in play. Cards that end combat as a strike cost an additional blood to play. All minions can burn one blood or life to gain a press only usable to continue combat.
Now, regarding melee weapons...
More than new cards, IMHO we should first address the Bundi/immortal issue.
If you can use Bundi inside Immortal Grapple you should also be able to use:
Bang Nakh
Brass Knuckles
Black Gloves
Kali`s Fang
> porphyrion wrote:
> I think that's a good solution to a hard problem, since preventing SC:E altogether during a combat might just make combat near impossible to deal with for a lot of decks. Seems well-balanced (although it's absolute gold for Jaroslav Pascek).
>
not to mention elihu.
> wesile wrote:
> A card to enter combat with no requirements its to powerful.
> Yes, S:CE its a problem to all combat decks that are unable to use Psyche or Grapple cards.
>
> You probably could create something like this to make S:CE more balanced:
>
> Uncontrolled Hate
>
> Gehenna. Do not replace until your next discard phase.
> Put this card in play. Cards that end combat as a strike cost an additional blood to play. All minions can burn one blood or life to gain a press only usable to continue combat.
>
> Now, regarding melee weapons...
>
> More than new cards, IMHO we should first address the Bundi/immortal issue.
>
> If you can use Bundi inside Immortal Grapple you should also be able to use:
>
> Bang Nakh
> Brass Knuckles
> Black Gloves
> Kali`s Fang
>
Bundhi is useless if all of those get under grapple. Why the hell would i pay 2 for strength+1 when bang nakh is +2, and brass knuckles are the same bonus but not good with celerity for no cost? Not to mention agg under gapple with equipment is.... you know, agg..... and not from the standard sources. Mass reality with grappling ravnos and black gloves burns people outright without much effort.
But, maybe realizing pool cost for melee weapons is high and correcting that could have been done awhile ago.
Bundhi combo decks are the only non-wws melee weapons that really get used. Note, talbots chainsaw is just a weapon. So, safe to say things like bastard swords are too costly to consider.
Helpful cards, probably strikes with no discipline requirements, are most likely a good way to go.
All melee weapons cost 1 pool too much. However, even if that is corrected by mass errata, .44 Magnum is a better weapon. It does everything it needs by itself.
I don't think we need new cards for melee weapons. Celerity, Fortitude and Valeren* already have all the cards that make weapons better. How can you make a melee weapon a viable alternative to a gun by itself?
*Vengeance of Samiel should be free!
> Dorrinal wrote:
> All melee weapons cost 1 pool too much. However, even if that is corrected by mass errata, .44 Magnum is a better weapon. It does everything it needs by itself.
>
> I don't think we need new cards for melee weapons. Celerity, Fortitude and Valeren* already have all the cards that make weapons better. How can you make a melee weapon a viable alternative to a gun by itself?
>
> *Vengeance of Samiel should be free!
>
Ive never seen a situation where a 44 is less good than melee weapons. As i said, i have a deck using meat hook and 44. But anytime i build q non unique melee deck, id rather use 44s. Thats kindof a problem.
In real life, plainly a firearm is better than a stabbing impliment. In vtm, vamps take only bashing from bullets, and thats really the only reason i think melee should suck less. Lethal and bashing have no mechanic in vtes, but the principle should matter some.
As of now, the only non wws, non unique melee weapons to use are bundhis in combo decks, and stuff for making them agg with valeran or quietus. And wws is fine for those too.
Some new ideas:
Name: Main Gauche
Cardtype: Equipment
Cost: 1 pool
Melee weapon.
Strike: strength+1 damage, with an additional strike that doesn't count against the limit: use another melee weapon strike.
Name: Antiquity Pawn Shop
Cardtype: Master
Location.
Melee weapons cost your minions 1 less blood or pool to equip. Tap and burn a melee weapon on a minion you control to gain X pool, where X is half the cost of that weapon (round down); not usable during an action.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Main Gauche - WWS would love to be paired with those in some ventrue stickman deck.
To boost melee weapons, you have to do it in both direct and idirect way.
Pawn shop still don't address main problem - getting them in first place. And you usually will be better with Ascendence.
Something to adress melee weapons directly:
Ancient Graveyard
Event
Transient
Any vampire may search his or her library for melee weapon as a +2 stealth action (pay cost as normal, shuffle, it's equip action). Vampires with capacity above 6 may burn 1 blood after this action in successful to untap. Put 1 counter after equiping weapon thanks to it, if 5 = burn this card.
Yeah, my wording is bit rusty but you get the idea
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
www.vekn.net/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/63804-melee-weapon-enhancers#65748
My submission topic.
Name: Silent Approach
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: No cost.
Capacity: Not applicable.
Discipline: Quietus
Clan: none
Maneuver, only usable to go to close range.
As above, and/or this vampire can equip with a melee weapon from your hand (pay costs and fullfill requirements as normal).
I am death.
Paul Kersey, Death Wish
The tricky part is that as written, you can only equip with the melee weapon if the opponent maneuvered to long. Perhaps try this:
Only usable before range is determined {on the first round?}
This vampire equips with a melee weapon from your hand (paying cost as normal).
As above, and this vampire gains an optional maneuver {only usable to maneuver to close range}.
The text in brackets is meant as options for the designer.
You guys should be careful when making discipliness and costless cards for melee weapons. Allies can become overpowered easily with these suggestions.
Name: Shadow Blade
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: No cost.
Capacity: Not applicable.
Discipline: Obfuscate
Clan: none
Maneuver, only usable to go to close range.
As above, and/or this vampire choice of melee weapon strikes can't be restricted this combat.
Also:
Name: Invisible Blade
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: No cost.
Capacity: Not applicable.
Discipline: Celerity
Clan: none
Dodge.
This vampire burn 1 blood to gain 2 additional strikes, only usable to strike with melee weapons.
No Quarter
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: No cost.
Capacity: Not applicable.
Discipline: Celerity
Clan: none
Only usable at close range, and if this minion has a melee weapon.
Opposing minion cannot dodge this round.
As above, and opposing minion cannot end combat as a strike.
I am death.
Paul Kersey, Death Wish
Oooh back to an Archetype idea:
Fencer
Master
Archetype
If this minion has a melee weapon and range is close for this round, they may make a Strike: Dodge and an additional strike, only usable to strike with a melee weapon. This minion reduces the cost of melee weapons they equip by 1 blood or pool.
or maybe something similar. I was thinking of a Stutter-Step type thing built in, but then we get to the usual problem of moving parts screwing up things. Might be worth building some brawler vampires that don't rely on things like Agg.
Another sideways thought...
Improvised Shield
Combat
Celerity
Only usable by a minion with a retainer or item of non-location equipment.
[cel] Burn an item of non-location equipment on this minion to reduce the damage from a ranged attack to 0.
[CEL] As [cel] but you may also choose a retainer on this minion.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
Name: Fatal Blow {Beheading}
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 2 blood.
Capacity: Not applicable.
Discipline: none.
Clan: none
Requires a melee weapon. Only usable when the opposing vampire is going into torpor; not usable by a vampire being burned or going into torpor. Burn the opposing vampire instead of sending that vampire to torpor.
I am death.
Paul Kersey, Death Wish
> Lech wrote:
> getting them in first place.
>
You can play Concealed Weapon. It don't get why they should be easier to get than guns. Because they're less powerful than their gun counterpart isn't a valid reason.
The interesting angle would be to make them do things guns can't do.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Charles_Bronson wrote:
> Name: Fatal Blow {Beheading}
> Cardtype: Combat
> Cost: 2 blood.
> Capacity: Not applicable.
> Discipline: none.
> Clan: none
> Requires a melee weapon. Only usable when the opposing vampire is going into torpor; not usable by a vampire being burned or going into torpor. Burn the opposing vampire instead of sending that vampire to torpor.
>
I like this kind of design !
It makes "having a melee weapon" a kind of discipline which you can use for additional effects.
But still, you have to be carefull because of WWS. (still, this card IS balanced even with WWS)
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > Lech wrote:
> > getting them in first place.
> >
> You can play Concealed Weapon. It don't get why they should be easier to get than guns. Because they're less powerful than their gun counterpart isn't a valid reason.
> The interesting angle would be to make them do things guns can't do.
>
Having melee weapons allow things done often by potence would be an angle. Disarming and decapitating could be worth playing melee weapons to some degree. The problem thematically is WWS and argent baton having the same properties as a bastard sword or Joulomons Axe. If I can cut off an arm with a Kerrie, why not with Talbots Chainsaw?
Most curent "weapons do more" cards just for melee make them agg(sword of the righteous/baals bloody taloms) or increase thier damage(blood tempering, potence strikes) and of course strike at the true flesh makes them not just do nothing against fortitude. Imbuing them with a property makes more sense thematically than saying a nightstick can take off a limb as easily as a meat cleaver. And its too much "clunk" to add lethal and bashing to the game.
Maybe support for unique melee weapons in a manner similar to angel of berlin would help getting the weapons and not requiring obfuscate to play good ones (without alastor, mots, or gift from bellona).
Pascek\Elihu inspire people to create decks based upon them. Maybe Broadsword and Rapier need to exists, with low costs, built in specials, and damage bonuses for "older" vampires.
I had drafted up a series of weapons that could be "concealed" out for a pool cost. Seems worthwhile here too.
Broadsword
Equipment, melee weapon
Cost 1 pool
Melee weapon. Strike strength +1 damage.
If the vampire with this equipment is of capacity 6 or greater, this weapon inflicts an additional damage each strike, and allies and younger vampires cannot strike to dodge or play grapple cards while in combat with the campire with this weapon.
Before range is determined in a combat involving a vampire you control with capacity 6 or greater, you may burn a pool to equip that vampire with this weapon (pay cost as normal).
Rapier
Equipment
Cost 1 pool
Melee weapon. Strike strength +1 damage, with an optional manuever only useable to go to close range.
If the vampire with this weapon is capacity 6 or more, this weapon inflicts ine additional damage each strike, and you may prevent one damage each combat from an opposing younger minions hand or melee weapon strike.
During a combat involving a vampire of capacity 6 or more you control, you may burn a pool to equip that vampire with this weapon before range is determined(pay cost as normal)
You get the idea.
Skill is needed with melee weapons. Any ally can light up a neonate with a 44, but you have to know what youre doing to take down even a neonate with a sword. Of course, both of these are just a bastard sword for minions other than vampires "old enough" to know how to use them. "Stick them with the pointy end" is basic enough, but using it to full effectiveness, or skills like not getting grabbed by the lapels and or using a sword to deflect a small weak blow are done by professionals.
Similarly,
If you want melee to matter, we can have a dark ages storyline variant. Everyone will contest ivory bow and debate banshee ironwail over crimson snetinal. Or not play combat......
Edit: heres one of the weapons Id made awbile ago. Dont think I ever posted it
Attachment tireiron.jpg not found
If we really want brass knuckless 2.0 what about:
0 cost
Melee weapon.
Strike: Strenght +1 damage. Only usable once each round. All and card on your hand have " equip this minion with brass knuckless 2.0 from your hand before range is chosen. (pay cost as normal)".
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
> BenPeal wrote:
> The tricky part is that as written, you can only equip with the melee weapon if the opponent maneuvered to long. Perhaps try this:
>
> Only usable before range is determined {on the first round?}
> This vampire equips with a melee weapon from your hand (paying cost as normal).
> As above, and this vampire gains an optional maneuver {only usable to maneuver to close range}.
>
> The text in brackets is meant as options for the designer.
>
Interesting, but I leaved the "and/or" because I wanted the maneuver to close even if you do not have the weapon to equip. So the card would have three uses:
1 - maneuver to close
2 - equip weapon
3- Equip with maneuver to close.
Would be annoying play the card in option 1, and not being able to use it because the opposing minion did not maneuver to long.
I am death.
Paul Kersey, Death Wish
Guns have manouvers, perhaps melee should focus on press.
2 pool. Melee weapon. Strength +2 each strike with an optional press each combat. A reflection of a .44.
> Nac wrote:
> Guns have manouvers, perhaps melee should focus on press.
>
> 2 pool. Melee weapon. Strength +2 each strike with an optional press each combat. A reflection of a .44.
>
Strength +1 would be reflection of .44, Strength +2 is in the shotgun range.
So riffing off things like Bundi and the 'press' idea:
Rapier
Equipment
1 pool
Melee Weapon.
Strike: 1 damage. This vampire has an optional press. This minion may burn 1 blood to change their strike to a Strike: Dodge if the opposing minion declares a hand or melee weapon strike.
Butcher Knife
Equipment
1 pool
Melee Weapon
Strike: Strength damage. For each strike which deals damage to the opposing minion this minion gains an optional Press to continue combat.
Half-brick in a bag
Equipment
Melee Weapon
Strike: Strength damage. If this strike deals damage in one round, the opposing minion cannot use maneuvers in the next round.
(I was also thinking of calling this 'Sack of Doorknobs')
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Ankha wrote:
> Name: Antiquity Pawn Shop
> Cardtype: Master
> Location.
> Melee weapons cost your minions 1 less blood or pool to equip. Tap and burn a melee weapon on a minion you control to gain X pool, where X is half the cost of that weapon (round down); not usable during an action.
>
Love it. Change the name to "Antiques Roadshow" and make the picture a vampire seizing a sword from a vendor while a terrified television crew starts running out of the frame.
Also: the design team could hypothetically create a set called Dark Ages or whatever focusing entirely on anachronistic things like melee weapons, witch hunts, monastic orders, ancient languages, and so on. There are certainly enough ideas in this thread to cover the melee weapon side of things. The 2016 bloodlines set that's been mentioned could very sensibly push in this direction, lorewise.
Can't wait 2016 to see what's comming for !Sal as they are big users of melee weapons. They are plenty of ideas here but not so much using Valeren or !Sal.
Why not a good Claymore ? Remnants of the weapons used by Samiel and his friends angainst the Baali ?
Claymore
2 pool
Strength +2 each strike. The bearer may not gain any additional stike unless he as POT or VAL, in wich case he or she gain an additional strike once per fight.
As it's an heavy weapon hard to master i want to reflect that it need strength or mastery to do well with it. But if you are good with it it's good for you
Samiel's sword
3 pool
Unique
Strength +2 undodgeable each strike. The minion with this weapon pay cards requiring Valeren or one less blood. The minion with this equipement can prevent 1 damage each round and can cancel a grapple card each fight.
I also think we miss an Immortal Grapple for melee. Something like :
Sanctioned Duel
Only usable before range is chosen. Grapple.
val : Strike that are not weapon strike may not be used this round.
VAL : as above and set the range to close for this fight.
Note tha it will not destroy gun fights as a reminder of Victorian age old guns duels.
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> Saupiquet wrote:
> Claymore
> 2 pool
> Strength +2 each strike. The bearer may not gain any additional stike unless he as POT or VAL, in wich case he or she gain an additional strike once per fight.
>
Is that a free additional strike for people with POT or VAL? If so, it's a fairly potent weapon in such hands - 2 pool for 6 damage a round. Or is it intended to be a limit to the number of additional strikes they can gain? If so, the wording needs clarifying.
Is it a melee weapon? Presumably, but needs the keyword if so.
> Saupiquet wrote:
> Samiel's sword
> 3 pool
>
> Unique
> Strength +2 undodgeable each strike. The minion with this weapon pay cards requiring Valeren or one less blood. The minion with this equipement can prevent 1 damage each round and can cancel a grapple card each fight.
>
That's quite a lot to pack into one weapon - defeats dodge, defeats simple aggro-poke, cheapens cards, makes life much less comfortable for the pot/cel deck
> Saupiquet wrote:
> Sanctioned Duel
> Only usable before range is chosen. Grapple.
> val : Strike that are not weapon strike may not be used this round.
> VAL : as above and set the range to close for this fight.
>
This feels... wrong.
A sanctioned duel isn't a grapple. Indeed, it's hard to say that fighting with a melee weapon is really a grapple, though you can probably let it go as a generic V:TES-ish term for "close range combat shenanigans".
But... this isn't only at close range. This affects gun users too, even if they're at range. This affects gun users, even if you are the gun user yourself. I'd be concerned about going down a route where the !Salubri have an incentive to be a gun user as part of something like a variant of stick-men. With a .44 Magnum or similar, you could go to range even when you don't have a Sanctioned Duel in hand, shoot, possibly add ammo or Targets, probably save yourself a lot of damage prevention. When you face stiffer opposition, you can toss in the Sanctioned Duel so that they can't S:CE or Dodge, even when you're at range, and even toss in a Death Seeker.
Assuming that you were going toe-to-toe with a deck, I'm not wild about shutting down an opponent's ability to surprise you with a hand strike of some sort, be it aggro-poke, Target Vitals or even the humble Lucky Blow.
I think part of the reason why guns are prefered to melee weapon lie in costing scheme and support cards. Out of the box, .44 is just better than even unique 0 cost weapons, as the 2 pool is saved by the optional maneuver each combat with ease.
So i suggest:
Little Surprise
combat
Only usable before range is determined.
Equip with non-location equipment from your hand that cost this minion less than 1 pool.
Look at up to as many cards from your library as capacity of this vampire. You may equip with non-location equipment that cost this vampire less than 1 pool. Only 1 superior each combat.
This card would not only allow vampires with obf choose it instead of disguised weapons to equip with melee weapons, but they would hava a chance to cycle/equip camera phone/ perma-maneuver against guns/ get mere reliable granades/ equip leather jacket to prevent damage.
It's mostly meant to improve nosferatu and assamite combat,and maybe some odd malkavian builds.
Best of all, it doesnt help gun decks, as there is no 0 cost gun equipment cards. Perhaps it should have cumulative cost, so people don't just use tons of those each combat. Finally a reason to have obf as combat vampire. Superior don't help weenies much, so i hope i did it right.
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
Main problem is that most weapons are not worth to waste an action to equip, which is why weighted walking stick is the most popular weapon in the game. Also pretty much all gun decks use concealed weapons to get their guns, and .44 magnum just happens to be the best weapon you can conceal out.
> Klaital wrote:
> Main problem is that most weapons are not worth to waste an action to equip, which is why weighted walking stick is the most popular weapon in the game. Also pretty much all gun decks use concealed weapons to get their guns, and .44 magnum just happens to be the best weapon you can conceal out.
>
... which is problem with both .44 and concealed weapon. I'd love to see Concealed Weapon errata, to make it up to 1 pool, which would effectively kill cel gun decks as we know it, and would force them to use either Deagle (they would lose on maneuvers and Psyche! synergy OR on damage, forcing them to use target vitals/magazines to up their damage potential.
Either way, it's a win/win for Melee weapon users - and would still have a chance to play old disguised .44 way.
.44 is most cost efficient weapon up until Assault Rifle/AK47, so even with concealed up to 4 pool, people would run .44.
To make Melee Weapons better, there have to be some good way to equip them, preferably in combat. As most generic Melee Weapons are tier trash (sorry, but Str+1 is way worse than 2R), conceal weapon just don't cut in, and disguised offer no advantage over going full gun. My suggested card try to address the point.
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
Just remembered about this topic today reading the WoD: Combat. In facto, disengage, hsymaker. Stutterstep and a lot of other combat Cards seems to be taken from it.
Vitor Hugo
Sabbat. Vitor gets +1 vote against any referendum of a political action.
I half agree with Dorrinal that melee weapons cost 1 too much pool.
So here is my compromise:
non-unique Melee weapons should be equipped with an additional +1 stealth.
Reason:
In modern times, no one gives a fuck if his neighbor has a sword. It's a fucking joke. Guns require permits or background checks, or you have to get them illegally. But you can go to any flea-market or swap-meet and get a sword.
Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.
> Klaital wrote:
> Main problem is that most weapons are not worth to waste an action to equip, which is why weighted walking stick is the most popular weapon in the game. Also pretty much all gun decks use concealed weapons to get their guns, and .44 magnum just happens to be the best weapon you can conceal out.
>
If so, this could be fixed with a combat card that fetches a melee weapon (I wonder if I didn't suggest one already). Something like "Combat. Only usable before range is determined. This vampire (more balanced than minion) equips with the first non-unique (for balance) melee weapon he or she can equip from your library (working from the top; cost apply as normal; shuffle afterwards).".
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Whatever is Handy
Combat
Only playable at the beginning of a round of combat.
This vampire searches from the top of your library for the first non-unique melee weapon and puts that weapon on this vampire along with this card. At the end of the combat, you must choose to pay the equip cost of this weapon, or shuffle the chosen weapon into your library (even if the weapon is out of play). Burn this card after the combat is over.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> Whatever is Handy
> Combat
> Only playable at the beginning of a round of combat.
> This vampire searches from the top of your library for the first non-unique melee weapon and puts that weapon on this vampire along with this card. At the end of the combat, you must choose to pay the equip cost of this weapon, or shuffle the chosen weapon into your library (even if the weapon is out of play). Burn this card after the combat is over.
>
Interesting, very horrid reality feeling.
What about:
The Worste of Intentions
Action modified
Only usable during a d action immidiately before combat. This minion equips with a non-unique melee weapon from your hand or ash heap (pay cost as normal).
"Room for flavor text"
So, if you rush or get blocked bleeding or rushing, or whatever else malicious, you get a weapon. More balanced since its not tutored from deck. Most broken part is recurring meat hooks, which isnt really going to break stuff, even in weenie dom meathoom bleed with this. It helps melee, and lets you pitch your stuff early turns or to dreams in order to cycle.
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> At the end of the combat, you must choose to pay the equip cost of this weapon, or shuffle the chosen weapon into your library (even if the weapon is out of play). Burn this card after the combat is over.
>
Corner-case annoyance: burning Garrote is supposed to 'use up' the Garrote, but now it gets shuffled back into the library.
More generally, the "search your library without having to take an equip action for a melee weapon" options make torporization quite a lot easier to access with Wooden Stake and a Target card (or Lucky Blow or whatever). That's potentially a fairly significant power escalation. Similarly for any vampire with a +1 strength special - they now sort of have a claw card.
And what about that :
Kind of Piper for melee weapon
Master. Trifle.
A ready untapped vampire you control equip a non unique melee weapon from your library (requirements apply as normal, shuffle afterwards). This weapon cost -1 pool of blood. This is not an action and cannot be blocked.
Else i have some ideas about archetype on that concept :
Crusader v1
Master: archetype.
Place this card on a vampire you control. This vampire equip a non unique melee weapon from your library (requirements and cost apply as normal, shuffle afterwards). This is not an action and cannot be blocked. Combat cards cannot deny the use of this melee weapon or the strike with this weapon. This vampire may only strike with this weapon. While this vampire is ready, this weapon cannot be transferred, moved or stolen. If this weapon is burned, burn Crusader. A vampire can have only one archetype.
Crusader v2 (less powerfull)
Master: archetype.
Place this card on a vampire you control. This vampire equip a non unique melee weapon from your library (requirements and cost apply as normal, shuffle afterwards). This is not an action and cannot be blocked. Combat cards cannot deny the use of this melee weapon or the strike with this weapon. This vampire may only strike with this weapon. If this weapon is burned, transferred, moved or stolen burn Crusader. A vampire can have only one archetype.
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