Danse Macabre Previews

The first Danse Macabre previews are up. www.vekn.net/vampire-elder-kindred-network/244-danse-macabre-previews V:EKN Website Coordinator

nice beggining. Dark Selina is really nice, could be easily a base for a brujah anti political deck and under siege is quite interesting but needs some testing to decide if it is worth including in a deck. and graphics are really good.

Good so far, and under siege is very much playable. In fact, added to abbot, it makes sabbat better at blocking than before. When evaluating new cards, if id play them and they wont break the game, they look good. Art being solid is also quite good.

Both cards look really solid. Dark Selina fits perfectly into the popular Undele/Lutz/Dmitra vote deck with the extra stealth (which compensates for the lack of Obfuscate) and is able to play Forced March as well. Under Siege is definitely a good card, somewhat comparable with 2nd Tradition: Domain. Three guaranteed untaps is huge, but they come at a price costing both an action and a pool.

> extrala wrote: > Both cards look really solid. Dark Selina fits perfectly into the popular Undele/Lutz/Dmitra vote deck with the extra stealth (which compensates for the lack of Obfuscate) and is able to play Forced March as well. Under Siege is definitely a good card, somewhat comparable with 2nd Tradition: Domain. Three guaranteed untaps is huge, but they come at a price costing both an action and a pool. > Under siege being played by bishops makes it easy awesome. Kite gives awesome blocking ti stealthbleed if needed, as does f. Cortez. Gisela harden just got better, and the only sabbat clan that was amazing anyway, Tzimisce, are still stupid good with it. Cool card, which when used with abbot makes up for lack of 2nd trad somewhat. Dark Selena is cool because fortitude and dominate are probably the best things to have at little. For for multiact, prevent, and not getting kiss of rq'd, and dominate for the obvious reason hat its dominate.

Many, many thanks to Christel Espenkrona and Anna Evertsdotter of Sweden for contributing artwork. It is to my understanding that they will be at the EC in Stockholm and will show off their original work for Danse Macabre as well as other works in their portfolios. These are not the only pieces they have done for Danse Macabre, so stay tuned!

Just a question? When are these cards ready for use in regular games?

So far, so good!

What can I say ex cept Thank You all !!!!!!! (With watery eyes) I hope to.see.more vampires from New England as Biltmore and Warwick... Pentex Board of Directors Prince of Oye Plage Alastor Grand Nord

Finland's greatest Brujah Antitribu enthusiast (that's me) approves the first preview vampire. Hell Yeah! Thank you to all who have contributed with upcoming set. ---- Banging trashcans, breaking windows We'll wake you up tonight We like the good time, we scream and shout And that's what fun's about

The artwork is awesome and I'm excited. > extrala wrote: > Dark Selina fits perfectly into the popular Undele/Lutz/Dmitra vote deck with the extra stealth (which compensates for the lack of Obfuscate) and is able to play Forced March as well. > I think that is actually a bit disappointing. That deck is plenty good and doesn't need reinforcements. She doesn't seem to open new options. > ReverendRevolver wrote: > and the only sabbat clan that was amazing anyway, Tzimisce, are still stupid good with it. > Lasombra, Kiasyd and !Ventrue would probably want to have a word with you.

I like both. The vampire is a very solid voter, though (as noted) she doesn't really open up any totally new options... though giving voting stealth to !Brujah is good, that's their weak spot. The library card is very nice. General use but somewhat limited due to title requirement, and very powerful effect which is balanced by a pool and action cost. Me likes!

we want more

Posted the link to Fantasiapelit Facebook site and in 13 hours 820 people have already seen the post. A little publicity certainly won't hurt the game. Finnish Politics!

> Vlad wrote: > What can I say ex cept Thank You all !!!!!!! (With watery eyes) > > I hope to.see.more vampires from New England as Biltmore and Warwick... > You mean like www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?crypt=583 "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> BenPeal wrote: > Many, many thanks to Christel Espenkrona and Anna Evertsdotter of Sweden for contributing artwork. It is to my understanding that they will be at the EC in Stockholm and will show off their original work for Danse Macabre as well as other works in their portfolios. These are not the only pieces they have done for Danse Macabre, so stay tuned! > Yes, very good artwork (better of many official). Giulio De Cicco Prince of Trento - Italy

Two more previews are up: V:EKN Website Coordinator

Is there still time for fixing text? Synner-G says "can untap", which follows the templating of only one vampire with a similar ability: Krassimir. Masika, Nakhthorheb, and Shalmath all use the phrase "may untap". I'd suggest making Synner-G's text consistent with their templating. Bonus fact: If Synner-G is in possession of Pier 13, and has been perma-tapped by some effect (let's say Sensory Deprivation), then he may untap by getting a pair of IR Goggles from the Pier. Synner-G Synergy!

I decided to reword a few cards (with PoD in mind). It's not the topic here, but the idea is to get consistency in cardtexts. Since "may" and "can" are used with the same meaning in vtes cards, and since "cannot" is used while "may not" is only once, I decided to go with "can/cannot" all the line. This might make translating simpler, if we ever end up translating cards. As a result, the template for "future" cards has been applied (with 2 minor exceptions) to the cards of the Danse Macabre set.

good to see two "new" cards, but those were already shown in Budapest one year ago.

> alek wrote: > good to see two "new" cards, but those were already shown in Budapest one year ago. > Im not on the DT, and didnt really get to playtest, but bear in mind that some cards are pretty cut amd dry, while others need tweaked. Both vamps so far are very ok, by which i mean pribably playable but not game breaking The pro cel card is a pretty easy to test card, is useful, not confusing, and not going to warp the global meta by any means. What im getting at is the sets done, these cards were plainly ready to see some time ago, whereas other cards werent. And not everyone saw them already. So, why not show them? So far, im really impressed with the expansion symbol. Seriosly, it looks better than several printed expansion symbols. Just sayin.....

> Ashur wrote: > > > Vlad wrote: > > What can I say ex cept Thank You all !!!!!!! (With watery eyes) > > > > I hope to.see.more vampires from New England as Biltmore and Warwick... > > > You mean like www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?crypt=583 > There needs to be an advanced william biltmore, that is princr of cardiff when merged. I think i made one, but i dont want to post it in this thread, because that would be kinda confusing.

> Damnans wrote: > How is this a good idea with Enkidu already shredding his victims? Why is there no cost to untap? Baron of Berkeley

Oh god, and the Unnamed too! I really don't see how this adds anything positive to the game, beyond further beefing up super-star decks. Are these archetypes that really needed more toys? Baron of Berkeley

> So, why not show them? > there is no reason not to show them. I just would be very happy to see something really new after such a long time. Apart from Under Siege all the other cards shown were presented one year ago. > > m not on the DT, and didnt really get to playtest, but bear in mind that some cards are pretty cut amd dry, while others need tweaked. > If I understand correctly all cards for Danse Macabre were finished some time ago and were just waiting for publishing, no more playtesting and tweking is planned for them.

> alek wrote: > > > So, why not show them? > > > there is no reason not to show them. I just would be very happy to see something really new after such a long time. Apart from Under Siege all the other cards shown were presented one year ago. > So what you're saying is, you saw the cards Mike and I previewed, but you didn't bother to take pictures of them to share with everyone else.

> Count wrote: > Oh god, and the Unnamed too! > > I really don't see how this adds anything positive to the game, beyond further beefing up super-star decks. Are these archetypes that really needed more toys? > Stanislava ftw! Nah, PRO/CEL sucks. pckvtes.wordpress.com

Good to see these previews finally coming out. As a request, would it be possible for somebody from the design team to say a few words about each card as it gets spoiled. Like maybe about the lore behind the card, or the reasoning that went into the card's design. I know that the whole design process happened quite some time ago, but I would find a discussion of the logic behind the card to be very awesome. Also, for those urging VEKN to release the whole set now - have patience, and allow the set to be teased out. Spoilers build anticipation and it's easier to discuss one or two cards than the whole set. We'll have the new cards soon. Check out my VTES blog: Gaming with BS I also host a google doc which separates the TWDA into clans . That means I track how often clans win, which crypt groups get used, and how many people attend events. You can access all of that info here:

Both Stanislava and Enkidu already have several ways of multiacting. Instantaneous Transformation isn't going to radically improve their effectiveness. It helps out the unnamed quite a bit, it's true, but it's going to help Gangrel Antitribu a lot more. They're obviously the clan meant to benefit.

> brettscho wrote: > As a request, would it be possible for somebody from the design team to say a few words about each card as it gets spoiled. > That may not be possible given that playtesters are generally prohibited from talking about playtesting for some period of time. Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

> Count wrote: > How is this a good idea with Enkidu already shredding his victims? Why is there no cost to untap? > Enkidu can still suck on Pentex. Now !Gangrel and friends have more to do- and free stealth! Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

> Pascal wrote: > This might make translating simpler, if we ever end up translating cards. > It can make it easier. Then again, it may not. I'm not even going to put the smiley here... Finnish Politics!

> brandonsantacruz wrote: > > > brettscho wrote: > > As a request, would it be possible for somebody from the design team to say a few words about each card as it gets spoiled. > > > That may not be possible given that playtesters are generally prohibited from talking about playtesting for some period of time. > Someone from the design team was requested, not playtesters. It does sound nice, but would it actually open up a huge can of worms/gargantuan whiny thread about the process? And I doubt the design team will want to enter that nigh endless quagmire. That being said I for one immensely enjoyed the artist's directions Heather put up on her website next to the VTES pieces she has done. Finnish Politics!

> brandonsantacruz wrote: > > > Count wrote: > > How is this a good idea with Enkidu already shredding his victims? Why is there no cost to untap? > > > Enkidu can still suck on Pentex. Now !Gangrel and friends have more to do- and free stealth! > Yeah, this is the important point. While it may boost some specific "superstars" a bit, those vampires already have other comparable tools at their disposal. The huge thing here is the boost it gives to City Gangrel, who typically lack both free stealth and the untap option. I don't think anyone is calling the !Gangrel all that powerful generally, at the moment (barring specific vampires like Enkidu).

> Lönkka wrote: > It does sound nice, but would it actually open up a huge can of worms/gargantuan whiny thread about the process? And I doubt the design team will want to enter that nigh endless quagmire. > I think it would definitely open up said can. Also, it may not be so easy to talk about the design process of each individual card without unknowingly divert player attention away from unexpected uses of the cards. Maybe talking about the design concept of the set as a whole rather than each card can work better? Suaku Inceptor Asian Continental Championship 興っ www.youtube.com/SuakuOz

> Count wrote: > Why is there no cost to untap? > Because you need two discipines at superior and an unblocked action to play it. If you kindly compare it to Freak Drive, which cost a blood, you will of course realise, that fortitude gives you the same at inferior for only. Yes, some strong vampires will benefint more of this card than others. But do you really want to look at Enkidu, Stanislava, Arika, Lutz and The Unnamed before you can create a new card? They have such a large discipline spread that they will benefit from most of new cards, at least regarding the basic disciplines. Inventing a celerity combat card that gives you a press and a maneuver at inf.? Too good because Enkidu. Thinking of a new Thaumaturgy card? Oh no, Carna and Cybele will get better. Animalism? Gosh, Nana gets a goodie. You see the point. Of course, if there was a new card, that made one of the monsters unbeatable it would suck. But this card is a weaker Freak Drive, which is more versatile because of its stealth inf. But how does that make an Enkidudeck better (it is playable just once per turn)? Or why does Stanislava like this more than Form of Mist or Forced March? You'd add one or three, yes. But then again nobody wants to have all rubbish in a new expansion. Instantaneous Transformation is good and not gamebreaking. That is IMHO the way new cards should be. Baron of Frankfurt

Instantaneous Transformation is very good on Adana de Sforza.

> brettscho wrote: > Good to see these previews finally coming out. As a request, would it be possible for somebody from the design team to say a few words about each card as it gets spoiled. Like maybe about the lore behind the card, or the reasoning that went into the card's design. I know that the whole design process happened quite some time ago, but I would find a discussion of the logic behind the card to be very awesome. > Some notes on the cards previewed thus far: Dark Selina is first (and most extensively) mentioned in the book Dark Colony, which covers the struggle for power amongst kindred in New England in the late 1800's. She's a Cardinal working behind the scenes from Zurich, using her pawn Roman Pendragon in her attempt to gain control of New England. She also has a brief mention in Los Angeles by Night, where she has sent her agent Christopher to Los Angeles to use it as a staging point for an incursion into Asia. She has no stats or physical description apart from being the sire of Roman Pendragon, so we used his stats for the basis of her disciplines and generation. There was also a need for a Brujah antitribu Cardinal in Group 5, so she was a nice find. Her special was derived from her political maneuvering from behind the scenes. Under Siege comes from Ben Swainbank's old notes from his time as Storyline Coordinator. He had plans for a Sabbat vs. Camarilla clash for his next storyline event, but that was not meant to be. However, we were looking for help for the Sabbat as a sect in Danse Macabre. After some modification and after being forged in the savage fires of the playtesters, we have the final version. Synner-G's only canon reference is in the flavor text of the Sabbat version of Computer Hacking, where he's mentioned as a Gangrel antitribu hacker. There was a need for a 5-cap City Gangrel in Group 5, as well as a desire to have a deeper selection of mid-caps with core City Gangrel disciplines. He has the standard 5 levels of disciplines for a 5-cap, but given that the disciplines are Celerity, Obfuscate, and Protean, we figured he could use a minor special. Going with the hacker idea and wanting to improve the toolbox potential for the Gangrel antitribu, we went with a special about electronic equipment. Instantaneous Transformation comes from the book Archons & Templars. It's described as being a rapid version of Shape of the Beast or Mist Form (and there's also a Celerity + Obtenebration version for Tenebrous Form). Rather than make yet another "combat ends" card for Protean, we opted for a multi-function card.

> BenPeal wrote: > Instantaneous Transformation comes from the book Archons & Templars. It's described as being a rapid version of Shape of the Beast or Mist Form (and there's also a Celerity + Obtenebration version for Tenebrous Form). Rather than make yet another "combat ends" card for Protean, we opted for a multi-function card. > I suppose we could do the Obtenebration version of Instantaneous Transformation someday. There are 30 crypt cards with Cel + Obt. Tenebrous Transformation +1 stealth Only usable at the end of a successful action (after action resolution). This vampire untaps. A vampire can play only one Tenebrous Transformation at superior each turn. Feel free to playtest it.

> BenPeal wrote: > I suppose we could do the Obtenebration version of Instantaneous Transformation someday. There are 30 crypt cards with Cel + Obt. > And 2 of them have . If there's anything Kiasyd need, it's more free stealth.

> Yes, some strong vampires will benefint more of this card than others. But do you really want to look at Enkidu, Stanislava, Arika, Lutz and The Unnamed before you can create a new card? They have such a large discipline spread that they will benefit from most of new cards, at least regarding the basic disciplines. > > Inventing a celerity combat card that gives you a press and a maneuver at inf.? Too good because Enkidu. Thinking of a new Thaumaturgy card? Oh no, Carna and Cybele will get better. Animalism? Gosh, Nana gets a goodie. You see the point. > > Of course, if there was a new card, that made one of the monsters unbeatable it would suck. But this card is a weaker Freak Drive, which is more versatile because of its stealth inf. But how does that make an Enkidudeck better (it is playable just once per turn)? Or why does Stanislava like this more than Form of Mist or Forced March? You'd add one or three, yes. But then again nobody wants to have all rubbish in a new expansion. > > Instantaneous Transformation is good and not gamebreaking. That is IMHO the way new cards should be. > fully agree

> Joscha wrote: > > > Count wrote: > > Why is there no cost to untap? > > > Inventing a celerity combat card that gives you a press and a maneuver at inf.? Too good because Enkidu. Thinking of a new Thaumaturgy card? Oh no, Carna and Cybele will get better. Animalism? Gosh, Nana gets a goodie. You see the point. > Actually, yes, designers should look at the star vampires when designing new cards. Instantaneous Transformation is troubling: It's effects are too similar to Freak Drive and Force March, and tt benefits star vampires with these disciplines more than the Gangrel! who need the real boost. Rather than addressing the problem that clan faces, the design team looks to have just thrown untaps at the problem. Is that the solution to weak disciplines? Just replicating other card effects that already exist? More stealth? More untaps? I would have less of a problem is the card was more limited or specialized in some way. Untap after a non-bleed action, take an action to gain an untap a la Rutor's Hand. Instead this design is just more of the same. With this design philosophy, what's the solution to weak combat disciplines? Adding more damage bonuses? This only further compounds the homogenization of disciplines, and does little to add variety to the game. Baron of Berkeley

> Count wrote: > > > Joscha wrote: > > > > > Count wrote: > > > Why is there no cost to untap? > > > > > Inventing a celerity combat card that gives you a press and a maneuver at inf.? Too good because Enkidu. Thinking of a new Thaumaturgy card? Oh no, Carna and Cybele will get better. Animalism? Gosh, Nana gets a goodie. You see the point. > > > Actually, yes, designers should look at the star vampires when designing new cards. Instantaneous Transformation is troubling: It's effects are too similar to Freak Drive and Force March, and tt benefits star vampires with these disciplines more than the Gangrel! who need the real boost. Rather than addressing the problem that clan faces, the design team looks to have just thrown untaps at the problem. Is that the solution to weak disciplines? Just replicating other card effects that already exist? More stealth? More untaps? > > I would have less of a problem is the card was more limited or specialized in some way. Untap after a non-bleed action, take an action to gain an untap a la Rutor's Hand. Instead this design is just more of the same. With this design philosophy, what's the solution to weak combat disciplines? Adding more damage bonuses? This only further compounds the homogenization of disciplines, and does little to add variety to the game. > And how adding a cost would have changed anything? Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Two more previews are up: www.vekn.net/vampire-elder-kindred-network/244-danse-macabre-previews V:EKN Website Coordinator

> Count wrote: > Actually, yes, designers should look at the star vampires when designing new cards. Instantaneous Transformation is troubling: It's effects are too similar to Freak Drive and Force March, and tt benefits star vampires with these disciplines more than the Gangrel! who need the real boost. > Yet, very often we find players worried that a large cap vampire is paying for disciplines they'll never use. Why pay for 6 disciplines, when your deck is only using 2 or 3, sometimes 4? So it's not clear to me why giving a benefit to vampires with wide discipline spreads is bad per se. > Count wrote: > Rather than addressing the problem that clan faces, the design team looks to have just thrown untaps at the problem. Is that the solution to weak disciplines? Just replicating other card effects that already exist? More stealth? More untaps? > It seems odd that you want to improve the (City) Gangrel Antitribu but simultaneously want to prevent them getting access to abilities that are known to be strong. It doesn't have to be an either/or. > Count wrote: > I would have less of a problem is the card was more limited or specialized in some way. Untap after a non-bleed action, take an action to gain an untap a la Rutor's Hand. Instead this design is just more of the same. > We should avoid getting more of the same by replicating Rutor's Hand?

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > We should avoid getting more of the same by replicating Rutor's Hand? > I don't mean to imply replicating Rutor's Hand. I mean to suggest looking at it as a potential model. What I find troubling - among others - is how Instantaneous Transformation is basically Forced March or Freak Drive with little to give it character. I'm also troubled by simply replicating other powerful abilities, instead of trying to give Gangrel Anti their own powerful abilities. They already have clan cards, but simply ones that are not strong enough. A good design would try to supplement the Gangrel Anti in a fashion tailored to their clan. Instantaneous Transformation simply cribs from other disciplines diluting the distinction between FOR/CEL and CEL/PRO. I'm not arguing that it's a weak card, but that's it's uninteresting, and contributes more to The Unnamed and Enkidu than Gangrel Anti. It's not serving the function that the new set should. Baron of Berkeley

!Gangrel have plenty of powerful vampires. Aksinya, Una, Enkidu, even Janey Pickman - all very powerful. But they aren't city gangrel. The way to help the city gangrel is to make dual discipline cards for their unique spread of cel obf pro. I think that this is perfectly fine bit of design.

> Count wrote: > > > jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > > We should avoid getting more of the same by replicating Rutor's Hand? > > > I don't mean to imply replicating Rutor's Hand. I mean to suggest looking at it as a potential model. What I find troubling - among others - is how Instantaneous Transformation is basically Forced March or Freak Drive with little to give it character. I'm also troubled by simply replicating other powerful abilities, instead of trying to give Gangrel Anti their own powerful abilities. > So, you're objecting to them getting a card that uses Forced March as a potential model (because that's not giving them their own powerful abilities) and saying to give them a card that uses Rutor's Hand and Clotho's Gift as a potential model instead (because that apparently is giving them their own powerful ability). Alrighty then.

> Count wrote: > Actually, yes, designers should look at the star vampires when designing new cards. Instantaneous Transformation is troubling: It's effects are too similar to Freak Drive and Force March, and tt benefits star vampires with these disciplines more than the Gangrel! who need the real boost. > if a star vampire can play freak drive, why would they need forced march and instant transformation? too many copies of those cards would only slow them down. or to look at it another way -- if your star vampire doesn't have then they probably weren't a "star" in the first place. that's just how overpowered freak drive is. these once-per-turn untap cards actually give more benefit to an army of small/midcap vampires rather than fatties. > Rather than addressing the problem that clan faces, the design team looks to have just thrown untaps at the problem. Is that the solution to weak disciplines? Just replicating other card effects that already exist? More stealth? More untaps? > > I would have less of a problem is the card was more limited or specialized in some way. Untap after a non-bleed action, take an action to gain an untap a la Rutor's Hand. Instead this design is just more of the same. With this design philosophy, what's the solution to weak combat disciplines? Adding more damage bonuses? This only further compounds the homogenization of disciplines, and does little to add variety to the game. > I would almost agree on the "homogenization" point, but in this case it's for a dual-discipline card. less than 30 vampires in the whole game can play this at superior, without outside help. that seems rather specialized to me. I'm not sure but maybe you're more upset that this wasn't a powerful combat card instead? On that I do agree with you, it seems silly that clans built around combat like Assamites and !Gangrel only become strong when they get cards for stealth-bleed just like everybody else. but I suppose that can never be fixed as long as S:CE is hard coded in the rules to be top tier. it's like, "they already have Psyche, what more can we do?"

> Haze wrote: > I'm not sure but maybe you're more upset that this wasn't a powerful combat card instead? On that I do agree with you, it seems silly that clans built around combat like Assamites and !Gangrel only become strong when they get cards for stealth-bleed just like everybody else. > The basic problem has been there since Jyhad - it's not-quite-hard-coded into the design of the game. Combat gets rid of blockers (and potentially frightens off aggressors), it doesn't erode pool. And so once you've disposed of your prey's vampires (or, in later sets, other viable minions), you still need to bleed them out. And with most combat decks, that's slow. So your main alternatives are: 1) make combat destroy pool too (there are limited options here, like Fame and Dragonbound), but you probably don't want to make combat equally efficient at destroying pool, or else it destroys minions and pool together 2) give them some sort of efficient ousting mechanism to slot in alongside the combat, and try to design it so that (or hope and pray) it doesn't jam their hands when in combat too. Versatile cards like Deep Song can be awesome here.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > > > alek wrote: > > good to see two "new" cards, but those were already shown in Budapest one year ago. > > > Im not on the DT, and didnt really get to playtest, but bear in mind that some cards are pretty cut amd dry, while others need tweaked. Both vamps so far are very ok, by which i mean pribably playable but not game breaking > > The pro cel card is a pretty easy to test card, is useful, not confusing, and not going to warp the global meta by any means. > > What im getting at is the sets done, these cards were plainly ready to see some time ago, whereas other cards werent. And not everyone saw them already. So, why not show them? > > So far, im really impressed with the expansion symbol. Seriosly, it looks better than several printed expansion symbols. Just sayin..... > Thanks. It's good to see your work appreciated. - Author of Danse Macabre symbol. Jussi Hattara Webmaster Extraordinaire Finnish Politics!

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > So, you're objecting to them getting a card that uses Forced March as a potential model (because that's not giving them their own powerful abilities) and saying to give them a card that uses Rutor's Hand and Clotho's Gift as a potential model instead (because that apparently is giving them their own powerful ability). > > Alrighty then. > No. I'm upset that Instantaneous Transformation is basically Forced March. An action modifier that grants stealth or an untap after a successful action. This is bland, boring, and paints with too broad of a brush. Why not give potence an untap? And animalism? Why not just give every discipline a means of untapping. However, if the goal is to give Gangrel Anti more to work with, why not something more attuned to their clan? I don't know the lore, so I can't comment. Give something to the clan, preferably something more interesting than action modifiers that untap or grant stealth, and something in the spirit of the clan. What the game doesn't need is more of the same. More hand damage is not the solution for potence, just as more untaps are not the solution to fatties. If Freak Drive is overpowered, the solution is not to simply give every vampire its ability. That merely compounds the problem further. Baron of Berkeley

The art on Shadow Boxing is amazing.

When I look at Instantaneous Transformation, I don't think, "Oh good, another way for my unnamed deck to destroy pool." I don't think that because more-of-the-same deck design is boring as sin. Instead, I look at it and think, "Xendil and Malabranca and Mugur are all of a sudden playable, and I can't wait to try designing decks around them." Edit to add: I actually don't love the icon for the set, but it's only because it's bright white. If it was off-white or grey or something not quite so glaring, it'd work really well. ...And I suppose, since I'll be printing these cards myself, that I could go ahead and make that change myself!

> DeathInABottle wrote: > When I look at Instantaneous Transformation, I don't think, "Oh good, another way for my unnamed deck to destroy pool." I don't think that because more-of-the-same deck design is boring as sin. Instead, I look at it and think, "Xendil and Malabranca and Mugur are all of a sudden playable, and I can't wait to try designing decks around them." > > Edit to add: I actually don't love the icon for the set, but it's only because it's bright white. If it was off-white or grey or something not quite so glaring, it'd work really well. ...And I suppose, since I'll be printing these cards myself, that I could go ahead and make that change myself! > I don't like that it seems that multi-acting is the only way in this game to make things better (or "make decks work"). If the answer to any given weakness in the game is multi-acting, somthing goes terribly wrong, don't you think?. pckvtes.wordpress.com

Coming soon to the TWDA: even more unnamed enkil cog decks. Still not likely to see tourney play: !Gangrel (except Enkidu who now torps/burns your blocker shadow boxes to his real torp/burn target and untaps for free afterwards)

About Instantaneous Transformation, I was just thinking this. There are four Assamites with pro, and they're all in G4 or G5! Though sadly Jamal is the only one with super pro, and its not like smites are generally short of stealth options to play it at basic... Still, how about Jamal gets Tasha, untaps with I.S. at PRO/CEL, bleeds for 3 with Flurry of Action, untaps with Flurry, then votes a Reckless Agitation (he has two votes and OBF PRE) for 5... just sayin...

my thoughts on Instantenous Transformation are as follows: I like it as a simple design, the effects are very straightforward which is very good I don't like that it further blurrs differences between disciplines. I think Stanislava and Enkidu decks don't care much about it, they already have a way to untap which is the main effect of this card. Unnamed would be happy, we will probably see some more of it on tournaments, which is neither good or bad. It was a solid deck but not a powerhouse, now it will become slightly better. Unnamed would probably remain bleed deck, so new card would just replace flurry of action. So still bleed and untap, now more versatile Adana the Sforza is happy which is very good becouse there was no tournament level deck around with him as a star. Mugur, Jamal, Malabranca, Xendil and some other vampires are better now, which is very good becouse they didn't see much play. Now there is hope for a change. I alreaedy saw very promising decks featuring f.e. Mugur and Xendil; this card was missing to make them tournament level. Some new vampires would probably have the needed disciplines which is good for them. What is very good for some vampires and star decks is still missing for Gangrel! generally. They don't have good way for ousting with three supporting disciplines and 0 purely offensive or defensive. But there is still a lot of not known cards in Danse Macabre. And in case nothing spectacular will show up, new cards can be a base for a permanents based !gangrel deck, but this won't probably be good enough to win big tournaments

> Count wrote: > Instantaneous Transformation is troubling: It's effects are too similar to Freak Drive and Force March, and tt benefits star vampires with these disciplines more than the Gangrel! who need the real boost. > Totally disagree. As noted before, the star vampires already have these capabilities, at most this is a card that they might include a few copies of in decks. On the other hand, the City Gangrel distinctly lack *both* of what's now offered here: free stealth and an untap option. I see this as a very nice boost to (City) !Gangrel, who, apart from a few star vampires, aren't all that hot at the moment.

I started thinking about a deck centered around Synner-G and Xendil with Luke Fellows an obvious support. Synner gets Camera Phones and/or Laptops (they don't work together, but the idea isn't to get everyone both). Should also try and get J.S. Simmons and Tasha Morgan. Heidelberg them around, play Instantaneous Transformation and finish with Enticement. Get through with lots of stealth and Form of Mist. Defend with Abbot and Under Siege. Not tier 1, but should be nice enough. Or maybe Hartmut Stover and Malabranca should go for some Loki's Gift voting action? Multiacting with Hartmut should be fun.

First things first: congratulations are in order for all of the people that made this happen, the artwork is fantastic (Dimple's piece and Shadow Boxing are astounding and I love the expansion symbol) and, though I won't say that I see the new cards as being ideal design, they at least offer to shake up the metagame in a significant way: the game won't stand indifferent to them, is what I'm saying, which I suppose is the point for a compact, 30-card, "every-card-must-count-and-no-chaff-is-allowed-in" kind of expansion set. Still, I must express agreement with this gentleman: > Count wrote: > Actually, yes, designers should look at the star vampires when designing new cards. Instantaneous Transformation is troubling: It's effects are too similar to Freak Drive and Force March, and tt benefits star vampires with these disciplines more than the Gangrel! who need the real boost. Rather than addressing the problem that clan faces, the design team looks to have just thrown untaps at the problem. Is that the solution to weak disciplines? Just replicating other card effects that already exist? More stealth? More untaps? > > I would have less of a problem is the card was more limited or specialized in some way. Untap after a non-bleed action, take an action to gain an untap a la Rutor's Hand. Instead this design is just more of the same. With this design philosophy, what's the solution to weak combat disciplines? Adding more damage bonuses? This only further compounds the homogenization of disciplines, and does little to add variety to the game. > I approve of all the crypt cards (despite seeing the Cardinal as being "ham-fistedly good", if you get what I'm saying). It's the library cards that strike more of a chord: Of the three spoiled, all are obviously good, but I have minor issues with two of them: Under Siege, the better balanced of the three, plugs some holes and its more egregious uses with some of the vicious wall decks should be mitigated by its uniqueness. Instantaneous Transformation, is ham-fisted and dreadfully unoriginal. It benefits a narrow spectrum of !Gangrel, as a quick search on SLibrary attests: 6 !Gan w/out Fortitude vs. 7 non-!Gan w/CEL,PRO and no For) so its mark in that regard is missed... Adana de Sforza,the Unnamed, sundry !Tor fatties and Christopher Houghton all get way more benefit than any !Gangrel ever will. Making this a clan card or at least making it cost blood with a reduction for !Gan might have been appropriate. Enkidu using this card is not a problem, Inner Circle members with Presence using this card for versatile "stealth or multiact": that, I have some qualms with. Shadow Boxing, the least offensive of the two, continues the trend of "good combat cards cannot actually have a red border" and going for multi-discipline-multi-type cards instead for maximum bang... the pot-obf seems like a good fit for Nossies but I see only Beast... I don't even rate Enkidu in this equation, seeing as he already multiacts through other means anyway (though the card certainly doesn't hurt his cause) but Beast decks can dutifully leave the Swallowed by the Nights at the gate and pack this instead, every single time: maneuver or press is better than just maneuver and getting a second rush out of the deal (for a minion that cannot multiact) is sweeter than just +1 stealth on the original rush. None of the cards are game-breaking or anything, it just irks me that they're too much "concentrated goodness", perhaps derived from having to make every slot count. The tweak that is missing in my view: swapping the two inferiors in the dual-discipline cards. I know, it might not seem like much of a deal, but having Shadow Boxing and Instantaneous Transformation do what each other does at inferior would (amazingly) still be thematically appropriate and would be a lot more balanced. Drain

Today's previews are up: www.vekn.net/vampire-elder-kindred-network/244-danse-macabre-previews V:EKN Website Coordinator

Wow. Both are *very* powerful. A new 7-cap Lasombra with all-superior clan disciplines and a reduction in blood costs? I see this guy (gal?) becoming very popular. As for Espirit de Corps... wow. That's huge. I already have ally deck plans around this, and I saw it 2 minutes ago

Whenever i worry about lasombra, i remember that g2 tzimisce are still the hands down most solid set of sabbat vamps in one group, and people stiol use the other ones. This 7 cap is a7 cap, which means itll be cool but not change stealthbleed much. Im seeing cheap entombments coming..... As a side note, every clan should have a solid 6-7 cap with all in clans at superior and somethimg neat aboit them if they are a 7. Those are vamps i always see use in.

> PetriWessman wrote: > On the other hand, the City Gangrel distinctly lack *both* of what's now offered here: free stealth and an untap option. I see this as a very nice boost to (City) !Gangrel, who, apart from a few star vampires, aren't all that hot at the moment. > The City Gangrel don't (shouldn't) lack for free stealth, their clan disciplines are CEL/OBF/PRO. (Though in some group pairs, the crypt design is poor for them.) Stealth is pretty in theme for them, as city-dwelling scavengers, hunters and sometimes assassins. They have some untap through inferior Dual Form (though it's not awesome, obviously), and a sort-of permanent extra untap option through superior Dual Form - though that's fragile and, if you're going for Protean, their combat tends not to be amenable to Taste of Vitae. Even the Country Gangrel types (whether antitribu or not) have easy access to Carrion Crows etc. for extra damage. (There's also Carrion Coffin/Homunculus, but that's typically a very different sort of untap, much more defensive, unless you have Enkil Cog or something.)

Badr, Shadow of Granada! Wow. He almost feels too good. An awesome picture, too. PCK also created 7-cap Lasombra crypt card based on this character from the canon, although it was different than this version. I appreciate that the design team made this Badr Independent, since the vampire he was based on was a member of the old Ashirra sect and not the Sabbat.

I'd just note that I'm not sure where all of the concern for !Gangrel comes from. Just, for instance, from 2009 on, !Gangrel have 28 wins and !Malks 29. Sure, a lot of recent wins are superstar decks. Is that any different from a lot of Baali wins coming from superstars? A lot of Gargoyle wins coming from one-turn superstars? Or, the lesser number of wins from 2009 on of: !Brujah (12), !Nosferatu (8), !Toreador (18)? The real concern should be for the perpetually shafted Pander (8). Clearly, !Brujah and !Nos are far worse than !Gangrel, but effort was made to make them less awful. How much effort is ever put into making Pander less awful? Maybe, we will see something in this set, but I have my doubts. People like to throw Pander in with Caitiff (also screwed in more modern play) and like to hate on 1-caps, but Pander shouldn't just be for 1-cap bleed or vote but have some sort of coherent clan identity, some way to rise above one-cappiness (or two-cappiness) so that the Enochians are pacified and you aren't just playing them for their winnieness potential. Then, people seem to forget about !Toreador and how they used to be far more successful and how it would be nice to get cards that aren't just as good for Toreador and that take them away from dull Palla Grande/Foundation Exhibit horde decks. Traveller Card Game

I think the reason they havent been seen as needing help is what you said they are reduced to: Legacy of pander is stupid good, and a cheese deck, and palla grand is also stupid good and a cheese deck. G2 pander are good, its been worse from there, and the last great caitiffs were mukhtar and before him maldavis. Several clans could use help, some actually need it though. Palla grand and legacy of pander win more than slaughterhouse, for exqmple, no matter what.

Esprit des Corps is awesome! Obvious use is Brujah Debate, but could fit in with other decks too; allies, old fashioned POT/PRE bash'n'vote... I'm trying to think outside the box a bit too, and for some reason, Setities with pot are coming to mind....

> Esprit des Corps is awesome! Obvious use is Brujah Debate, but could fit in with other decks too; allies, old fashioned POT/PRE bash'n'vote... > I'm trying to think outside the box a bit too, and for some reason, Setities with pot are coming to mind.... > I used to have a pretty decent mid-cap Guruhi rush/bleed deck. It's gonna love this card, time to bring Nangila out of retirement.

The last previews are up: www.vekn.net/vampire-elder-kindred-network/244-danse-macabre-previews V:EKN Website Coordinator

That new vampire looks like a Smooth Operator.

A reference to Marquis De Sade? I like him, a solid vampire for a !Ventrue vote deck. I'm also thinking of a nasty deck idea featuring Public Vilification and Gabrielle di Righetti... Edit: Also, as Malachy pointed out, the artwork on all cards has been thus far been excellent! Keep up the good work.

I'd like to fling a metal-framed 247-year-old grand piano boarded on a Boeing 777 at his face... which means thumbs up for the illustrator! NC of Hungary ///

Templating question again: I think De Sade's ability should match Madrigal's text. If De Sade gets superior Melpominee and plays Madrigal, and another vampire chooses to vote against, what happens? They burn 1 blood when casting their vote, and another blood when votes are tallied? Or both at the same time? Or to be ever-so-slightly-less-contrived: Imagine another Methuselah's Daughter playing Madrigal during a vote called by De Sade, and voting in agreement with him.

De Sade's text says "must burn a blood to cast votes" which means you have to be able to burn blood, otherwise you cannot cast your votes. In case of Madrigal, you burn or gain blood when the results are tallied. NC of Hungary ///

the new sabbat political card is what I've been waiting most. At last good political card with unique sabbat flavor. I love it! Finally, it's worthy to play sabbat political decks and opens many decks ideas

What about effects that change votes that have already been cast? If a vampire has no blood, can he be forced to vote against De Sade?

> jozxyqk wrote: > If a vampire has no blood, can he be forced to vote against De Sade? > I'd say no. Analogously, I'd say that Phillipe Rigaud ("When any older vampires are in torpor that Phillipe may diablerize, he must attempt a diablerie action (unless he must hunt).") cannot perform the diablerie action against Hazimel, if Phillipe is on 1 blood. ("Other Methuselahs' non-Ravnos vampires must burn 2 blood to attempt an action that targets Hazimel or a card or counter on him.") (And so is stuck? That "may diablerize" clause is tricksy . But in a tournament, I'd probably rule "stuck".)

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > jozxyqk wrote: > > If a vampire has no blood, can he be forced to vote against De Sade? > > > I'd say no. > But then does the bloodless vampire keep his original votes? Or abstain? It's a little different from a mandatory Action here.

I would probably rule it that the vampires votes don't change then. On another topic, I rather like that new vote, especially since it gives voters without presence a way to gain blood, which is very nice. Tzmisce, !Ventrue, !Malks, and !Nossies will benefit from that the most, as most Lasombra voters have presence anyway.

The full set's out! I'm very glad to see it in the light of day. So to speak.

> DeathInABottle wrote: > The full set's out! I'm very glad to see it in the light of day. So to speak. > Is there a complete spoiler list of it somewhere?

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > jozxyqk wrote: > > If a vampire has no blood, can he be forced to vote against De Sade? > > > I'd say no. > > Analogously, I'd say that Phillipe Rigaud ("When any older vampires are in torpor that Phillipe may diablerize, he must attempt a diablerie action (unless he must hunt).") cannot perform the diablerie action against Hazimel, if Phillipe is on 1 blood. ("Other Methuselahs' non-Ravnos vampires must burn 2 blood to attempt an action that targets Hazimel or a card or counter on him.") (And so is stuck? That "may diablerize" clause is tricksy . But in a tournament, I'd probably rule "stuck".) > James: I'd be reading the "may" as a condition of targeting and not a condition of 'choice'. If there exists a target, then he must attempt diablerie. So he can do anything he wants if he cannot target any of the vampires in torpor (i.e. Carver's Meat Packing, Secure Haven played after landing in torpor, Hazimel, etc) Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Klaital wrote: > > > DeathInABottle wrote: > > The full set's out! I'm very glad to see it in the light of day. So to speak. > > > Is there a complete spoiler list of it somewhere? > Front page.

So, as it seems, theres still nothing parity shift-like political action for sabbat....:/

Is there a full spoiler list other than pdf download? I dont have a computer i can use, so i was hoping to see the stuff on my phone.

Here are my initial thoughts on some of the cards. Crypt: Gold Pan Dan, I really like this vampire, very solid midcap, and goes great with that new pot/pre bleed action from the set. Mimir, I can already see lots and lots of star vampire decks made around this guy for the sole reason that he is immune to pentex. Quite solid discpline spread too. Drozodny, this guy looks completely broken to me, did Lutz really need the help? And he only pays half a point from that special. He even has presence. Gerald FitzGerald, really nice special, I can see !tremere black hand decks becoming quite popular. Ludmildja Rackozdy, solid midcap, although she pays quite a lot for that special, taking in that there are very few animalism cards that actually cost blood, murder of crows and raven spy are about only ones that generally see play. Xipe Totec, really good vampire, although I am kind of wondering why he doesn't have celerity, taking in his drum gives superior celerity. Aimery Methuin, is this guy a reference to Jack the Ripper? The artwork kind of made me think of that. Karif al-Numair, another black hand assamite to play with all the ones in group 4-5 already, not sure if that was really needed, though I suppose he is kind of huge, and two of the others are already 9 caps, so you probably don't want to play them all in same deck. Library: Spoils of War, a nice effect, especially if you combine it with social charm or legal manipulations, though I am not sure if its big enough effect to have space for them in a deck. Inside Dirt, inferior enticement, or superior horseshoes for every embrace you got, and it doesn't even limit you from bleeding again, I can see rather nasty swarm decks made around this card. Public Vilification, I really like this card, it makes sabbat vote decks and even more so, sabbat vote decks without presence much more viable. Show of Force, this looks like the long lost brother of Iron Glare, looks like brujah of all types can now bleed for 5 with no blood cost, with a mini signpost just in case they get blocked. Shadow Boxing, I like it for the simple reason that it finally makes nossies to actually gain some benefit from their obfuscate. Dark Steel, this looks very very strong, lasombra suddenly became scary in combat. Recruitment Exercise, this looks fairly redundant to me, taking in Black Hand already had Reunion Kamut that fills mostly the same slots in the deck.

What is the abbreviation and the rarity of those new cards? I'm updating LackeyCCG right now and don't know if I use DM:W or DM:PDF or another abbreviation to new expansion... Fernando Cesar - Sydnelson LackeyCCG and OCTGN VtES Mantainer Prince of Rio de Janeiro Powerbase Rio de Janeiro

Im kinda impressed as hell with the artwork. Also, solid cards for the most part, i kinda wish these were part of SoC, so idxhave less copies of useless stuff, and more coolness like these. But. Im dissappointed that there are no other !malks with fortitude. I was hoping for one of those. It would have let me actually run loads of decks that are almost how i want them, but need more than apache, lily, and marge for. I know they dont need help with library cards, but by giving more disciplines that are useful to a nice spread of vamps from one clan, they can break out of a typecast like sneaking and bleeding. Because that is almost all !malks win with, other than the toy !malk potence decks that are hurt now due to liliths being banned. Having said that, i dig some of the specials. The neatest vamp in my opinion is the !torrie archbishop. Really interesting evasion special. And she has little dementation. Id like to say that it has zero practical value, but the fact that several(now several+1) torries and !torries have dementation( off the top of my head, phillip, rain, tears, amd the bald black hand awesome filler discipline spread guy) have dementation make me tempted to run cards like prison of the mind, mind of a child, mind of a killer, etc some time with them. But not until im really bored. Those decks dont win much. I like the fatty ! Gangrel wifth THA and dom. His spread goes with other fatty Gangrel like Fakir and Mic. The BH stuff is neat. I dig how the Assamite can tap down another persons BH vamp. The information network for bh(or is it more of a mesu bedshet?) Is cool with kamut. And the contract thing is a good example of what i thought this set would be: cool stuff that helps preexisting stuff needing help. The only card i ld build decks around is inside dirt, but its all playable, so...... Good job, DT!

I really like the artwork. 'Dimple' and Javier Santos are my favourite artists, the others are great too. All in all a tad better than HttB IMHO. Baron of Frankfurt

Agreed. The artwork is fantastic.

> Sydnelson wrote: > What is the abbreviation and the rarity of those new cards? > > I'm updating LackeyCCG right now and don't know if I use DM:W or DM:PDF or another abbreviation to new expansion... > There will be an update of the CSV files on this very website. This will hopefolly give an answer to your question.

Are the cards in the PDF files in correct size? I tried comparing them to real cards, and they seem be a bit off, about 20% larger. Just wanna make sure, since I'm planning to have them printed to real card paper in a local firm.

That's odd. The organizers printed out a couple of these paper (A4 size) versions during the EC, and they did have the proper size.

> extrala wrote: > That's odd. The organizers printed out a couple of these paper (A4 size) versions during the EC, and they did have the proper size. > Are you sure? At least those he printed saturday evening was a bit too small. Just 2 mm or so, but still. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > > > extrala wrote: > > That's odd. The organizers printed out a couple of these paper (A4 size) versions during the EC, and they did have the proper size. > > > Are you sure? At least those he printed saturday evening was a bit too small. Just 2 mm or so, but still. > Not sure. I never cur them and put them in sleeves. But definitely not 20% larger as the previous poster suggested.

Well, it might be just Adobe Reader not showing the sizes correctly on the computer screen. Just wanted to make sure.

I printed the cards out on A4, and they had the correct size. "It was a perfect plan - until it had contact with reality" --- Hardy Range Playgroup Tradition Compliance Manager

> extrala wrote: > > > Ashur wrote: > > > > > extrala wrote: > > > That's odd. The organizers printed out a couple of these paper (A4 size) versions during the EC, and they did have the proper size. > > > > > > > > Are you sure? At least those he printed saturday evening was a bit too small. Just 2 mm or so, but still. > > > Not sure. I never cur them and put them in sleeves. But definitely not 20% larger as the previous poster suggested. > That is because adobe reader, mine at least, shows them at 122% size by default.

> Poci wrote: > So, as it seems, theres still nothing parity shift-like political action for sabbat....:/ > It was tried, but couldn´t come to a usable result in 5 rounds of playtesting

the set is now officially released? is usable in tournaments? tnx in advance

Danse Macabre is legal from 4th November 2013 Suaku Inceptor Asian Continental Championship 興っ www.youtube.com/SuakuOz

It's officially released since Oct. 4th, and becomes VEKN tournament legal on Nov. 4th.

As I noted during the EC: fantastic artwork, very solid new cards with zero wallpaper. Awesome job, design team! You guys rock.

> Klaital wrote: > Xipe Totec, really good vampire, although I am kind of wondering why he doesn't have celerity, taking in his drum gives superior celerity. > In the design team presentation on saturday, Ben&Mike talked about this. This Xipe Topec is not the guy from the drum. He's just some guy pretending to be Xipe Topec. I think that presentation was filmed and will be available on youtube. www.facebook.com/groups/vtes.belgium/

I'd love to see that video! I'm really sad that the parity-like vote didnt made the final cut, because now, sabbat is generally at the same state as it was, behind camarilla. The artworks are really nice, especially Dimple's artworks (Xipe is my fav artwork) are really top notch. I really liked the Under Siege artwork too. I was really wondering how Dark Steel came to the light, because the only thing Lasombras generally miss is any form of damage prevention. I wouldve been happy with a Rego Motus-like card from obtenebration, thats really missing for me. At many of the new vampires, i really see the individual potential, though i really dont see much sinergy with existing vampires. Xipe is a prime example for me, great abilities, ok cap, but the protean is pretty rare within its clan (and really bad vampires have it at all). an inferior fortitude, prescence wouldve been much better than a superior protean is. The 2 pot/pre cards seem pretty much the kind of cards that you try to squeeze into decks, but they just cannot make the final cuts all the time. simple prescence actions still seem better than any of the 2. Spoils of war is simply underpowered. Recruitment exercise....pretty much a pointless card. Public Vilification is cornercase at best, maybe only good for easy voter caps, because it's less damage than almost any other votes (sure, can be annoying if called on you, but a Conservative, KRC or banishment are much more annoying, just to name the most prominent that sabbat can use). I'd use Auto-da-fe, before Public Vilification (considering how much that card is used, its pretty much a statement). As i see, without the parity-like vote, the expansion pretty much a try-and-miss expansion, no matter what others came out (though many of the vamps individually seem really good). Sabbat still has immense vote powers, just nothing that is their signature vote, nothing that is powerful and only they can make it. Parity is overpowered surely, but something around that category shouldve been made.

Claudia is my favorite artwork from the set. Poci, I think you are underestimating Public Vilification, and not realizing that its actually best for non-presence voter decks as it gives them the blood gain they were missing before, each one is basically like +3 pool that you can villein off from your vampires. Its just a nice bonus that it also takes resources off from your prey or predator.

... not to say that it combines nicely with stuff like serpentis. Of course requires some deck building, but can be combined for sure Even a broken clock is right twice a day

Sure, I might be wrong about public vilification, but i still see that as a 2nd division vote. Crypt-wise, the expansion is pretty nice. Dark Selina and GPD are really good for the already popular !Brujah decks. Mimir is great by itself, well see how the players will build on it. My main problem is with library cards generally. Shadow Boxing and Inside Dirt seems good, Under Siege and Instaneous Transformation, Shakar is great. Dark Steel would be good with some complimentary pieces that Lasombras miss. The Pot/Pre cards and the spoils wont see much play though, just like recruitment excercise.

Just to say that Badr's art is my favorite. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Poci wrote: > I'm really sad that the parity-like vote didnt made the final cut, because now, sabbat is generally at the same state as it was, behind camarilla. > ... > As i see, without the parity-like vote, the expansion pretty much a try-and-miss expansion, no matter what others came out (though many of the vamps individually seem really good). Sabbat still has immense vote powers, just nothing that is their signature vote, nothing that is powerful and only they can make it. Parity is overpowered surely, but something around that category shouldve been made. > This sort of thought process makes no sense to me. If Parity Shift (or any card) is overpowered, then get rid of the overpowered card. Don't make more overpowered cards. Now, if you want to argue for making the game all about broken fighting broken and wallpapering a vast quantity of weaker cards that currently see play, something I've seen a CCG do to good effect, that's a philosophy, just not one I see having value with this game. > I was really wondering how Dark Steel came to the light, because the only thing Lasombras generally miss is any form of damage prevention. I wouldve been happy with a Rego Motus-like card from obtenebration, thats really missing for me. > A lot of V:TES cards come about because the CCG is based on the RPG. See, for instance, wiki.white-wolf.com/worldofdarkness/index.php?title=Obtenebration_%28VTM%29 While there's a lot of ability to interpret thematics into mechanics, sometimes you just can't make the name of a card fit the mechanics you want or vice versa and not have the card be poorly conceived. Traveller Card Game

"Aegis of Shadows: Cover yourself in powerful shadow armor Armor of Darkness: Cloak yourself in shadow that protects you from sunlight and fire. Armory of the Abyss: Create weaponry and/or armor from shadow-stuff." Just for instant, from the very same link you gave. I think, cards were made from less in the past. Technically, almost every other ability were made from obtenebration, multi-disc ones, but these ones which gave damage prevention. I think, thats on purpose after i checked that list, unfortunately. About the parity-like vote, i said something around that, not with the exact power lvl of parity. Something that at least can be called as a flagship of a sabbat voter deck.

> Poci wrote: > "Aegis of Shadows: Cover yourself in powerful shadow armor > Armor of Darkness: Cloak yourself in shadow that protects you from sunlight and fire. > Armory of the Abyss: Create weaponry and/or armor from shadow-stuff." > > Just for instant, from the very same link you gave. I think, cards were made from less in the past. Technically, almost every other ability were made from obtenebration, multi-disc ones, but these ones which gave damage prevention. I think, thats on purpose after i checked that list, unfortunately. > > About the parity-like vote, i said something around that, not with the exact power lvl of parity. Something that at least can be called as a flagship of a sabbat voter deck. > Obt having prevent would make lasombra more on par with thier status in the rpg. If the can have +strength, additionals from black metamorphisis, can grapple, and now have access to envirnmental, they would be awesome with prevent. As is, you use the ones with fortitude or invest alot in vamps that are easy to dunk. Obt should also have vote pump. Damafe prevent on one card and vote pump on another and obt would be set. Other support disciplines have such things, like protean(lokis gift) serpentis(skin of the adder) etc. They hwve it in fluff, having it in vtes would help lasombra. And its an easier fix than other problems. Dark steel is solid, though, having said that. Sabbat should have a flagship vote. It shouldnt be based on the principle that "the other guys have something thqt steals pool, we should too" Fluff wise, under siege has placed us closer to where fluff and function with sabbat should be heading. Cam princes and justicars have second trqds and parity shifts. Titled sabbat has weaker suff, public vilification and eternal vigilance. But run of the mill, nontitled sabbat idiots get under siege and abbot, and so do the titled ones. Fluff wise, sabbat should help its peons more in theory. Now, anarchs should have that as a trait too, but lets not get greedy. Laibon make due with no secrets and strange day alot. Sabbat is on its way to balancing its cam counterpart. Imdys still suck if you rely on being gangrel or having necro, though. Edit: also, the problem with necro is most of the cool names got wasted on crappy cards. There is stil hope for obt.

> Poci wrote: > "Aegis of Shadows: Cover yourself in powerful shadow armor > Armor of Darkness: Cloak yourself in shadow that protects you from sunlight and fire. > Armory of the Abyss: Create weaponry and/or armor from shadow-stuff." > > Just for instant, from the very same link you gave. I think, cards were made from less in the past. Technically, almost every other ability were made from obtenebration, multi-disc ones, but these ones which gave damage prevention. I think, thats on purpose after i checked that list, unfortunately. > Only one of those three is an Obt/Pot power and, arguably, the Obt/Pot version of Armory would be weapons, not armor. Why was Dark Steel chosen? I'd imagine it was because pure Obt cards also help Kiasyd and probably, as well, that the design team wanted to give Lasombra something more offensive to do rather than defensive, considering that combat ends, dodge with an additional, and Obedience are all things they already have. I actually don't have any problem with Obt getting damage prevent. Damage prevent is hardly gamebreaking and a problem in the current game is that Animalism and agg are so prevalent that Potence combat is easily murdered. Obt does have Arms of the Abyss to address the latter. So, sure, bring on the For/Obt cards - Lucita, et al, will love them. In fact, I think the game should see far more multidiscipline abilities, so I don't know why so many effects haven't been ported. > About the parity-like vote, i said something around that, not with the exact power lvl of parity. Something that at least can be called as a flagship of a sabbat voter deck. > Cardinal Benediction. But, why should Sabbat have a flagship vote? Parity Shift isn't a Camarilla flagship vote, it's a P/J vote (not to get into how lame the Camarilla is when you aren't P/J/ICM). Sabbat is supposed to be about violence and treating humans like crap (and yet gets more mortal allies than the more human-friendly Cam, 5 clans to 3 if you include Gangrel as a Cam clan, with only Brujah giving the Cam any sort of volume). What's the problem that is trying to be fixed? That Sabbat voting is too weak? That's only in comparison to P/J voting. Indies get Reckless Agitation, DoC get Lily Prelude, etc., but all of those come at a cost of lack of titles. Sabbat have a decent amount of titles and can Benediction up but don't have crazy powerful votes - seems fair. Traveller Card Game

> ICL wrote: > So, sure, bring on the For/Obt cards > Yeah, thatd be pretty pointless. where i have For, i use that. That pot/obt multi disc one could very well make defensive effect card (potence can be for the power of the shadow armor), or an inferior def, superior attacking effect, in the vein of Horrid Form. The sole mono-obt card that can make a prevent is Aegis of shadows, which could be a rego motus kind of card, 2 at inf, 4 at sup. nothing fancy, nothing complicated. Its really a shame that damn thau and even celerity have prevent card, while a notoriously multidimensional discipline like obt keeps getting ignored.

Typhonic beast for pot obt would be very playable, and hardly groundbreaking. Snake punch has won tournaments, and lasombra have pot as an in clan. It would be an idea to look into later.

> Von_Polack wrote: > Are the cards in the PDF files in correct size? I tried comparing them to real cards, and they seem be a bit off, about 20% larger. > > Just wanna make sure, since I'm planning to have them printed to real card paper in a local firm. > The PDF files contain A4 pages, but using "letter" (US) format shouldn't be a problem since the printable area fits both formats anyway. Just be careful to set the "Page Scaling" to "None" in the Print dialog, otherwise the cards will be scaled up or down. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I noticed that Karif al Numair doesn't have (The Blood Curse does not affect Karim.) text that all other Sabbat Assamites have. Is this intended that he can't do diablerie? Marko, Prince of Helsinki

The Blood Curse does not affect him is just a reminder text, he doesn't have 'Blood Cursed' on him, which is a trait, so he can diablerize just fine.

> Klaital wrote: > The Blood Curse does not affect him is just a reminder text, he doesn't have 'Blood Cursed' on him, which is a trait, so he can diablerize just fine. > You're totally right. I guess that my brain is a bit freeze after five days of vtes tournaments... Marko, Prince of Helsinki

Perhaps it might be a good idea to add the rules regarding the PDF cards to the set's page/download page ? Or at least links to a page/post/thread where these have been discussed. Most casual visitors to our site probably don't know how these are supposed to be used (legally in tournaments)... Finnish Politics!

Great cards and awesome art! Big thanks to the whole design team, play testers and artists! btw. has it been already noticed that all ANI disciplines are displayed as OBF when the PDF is opened with Mac's (10.6.8) preview? When I open the PDF with Acrobat Pro, then I see the ANI disciplines correctly.

> Trochomancy wrote: > Great cards and awesome art! Big thanks to the whole design team, play testers and artists! > > btw. has it been already noticed that all ANI disciplines are displayed as OBF when the PDF is opened with Mac's (10.6.8) preview? When I open the PDF with Acrobat Pro, then I see the ANI disciplines correctly. > Obf, as in, really obfuscate? Or could it be that the symbol for animalism is missing (causing the square to be empty) ?

> Pascal wrote: > Or could it be that the symbol for animalism is missing (causing the square to be empty) ? > Without actually knowing anything about anything that sounds like a plausible cause to me. Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > Perhaps it might be a good idea to add the rules regarding the PDF cards to the set's page/download page ? > > Or at least links to a page/post/thread where these have been discussed. > > Most casual visitors to our site probably don't know how these are supposed to be used (legally in tournaments)... > A paragraph indicating how to use Danse Macabre cards in V:EKN sanctioned tournaments has been added to the announcement page for the set. V:EKN Website Coordinator

Just got a confirmation from a friend using Apple computer that the standard PDF reader program (Preview) displays some of the cards incorrectly but Adobe's PDF Reader (www.adobe.com/support/downloads/product.jsp?platform=macintosh&product=10) displays them correctly. Jussi Hattara Webmaster Extraordinaire Finnish Politics!

Yes, the glitch is more like ANI symbol missing but it makes that 9 cap nos! to look funny with two OBF diciplines

> jhattara wrote: > Just got a confirmation from a friend using Apple computer that the standard PDF reader program (Preview) displays some of the cards incorrectly but Adobe's PDF Reader (www.adobe.com/support/downloads/product.jsp?platform=macintosh&product=10) displays them correctly. > According to wiki : > > Portable Document Format (PDF) is a file format used to represent documents in a manner independent of application software, hardware, and operating systems. > Apparently, Preview has issues with embedded font (and the discipline symbols are embedded in a font). Try updating to the latest version (support.apple.com/kb/DL1377) or use the Acrobat Reader in that case. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> johannes wrote: > > > Poci wrote: > > So, as it seems, theres still nothing parity shift-like political action for sabbat....:/ > > > It was tried, but couldn´t come to a usable result in 5 rounds of playtesting > Sad that it didn't work out. It was one of the things I looked forward to the most with a new Sabbat set. The other new cards are cool though.

Added a post regarding the new set on Fantasiapelit Facebook page. Also mentioned that the next set was also well into the production with the biggest problem being the lack of artwork and that the artists interested to helping out should contact our Art Director (Gines) about it. Should have between 500-1200 reads withing the next few days. EDIT: 916 views in 22 hours. Finnish Politics!

> Hyllan wrote: > > > johannes wrote: > > > > > Poci wrote: > > > So, as it seems, theres still nothing parity shift-like political action for sabbat....:/ > > > > > > > > It was tried, but couldn´t come to a usable result in 5 rounds of playtesting > > > Sad that it didn't work out. It was one of the things I looked forward to the most with a new Sabbat set. The other new cards are cool though. > It's really hard to balance something like Parity Shift. It was a close call to cut it off. Baron of Frankfurt

Since I have had several jol players asking for easy to view list of cards without needing to open pdfs and stuff, I am just writing the full list here. Hope this helps! Crypt: (all crypt cards are group 5) Gold Pan Dan Clan: !Brujah Capacity 6 Sabbat: Once each turn, when combat involving Dan ends and the opposing minion is not ready. Dan can burn 1 blood to untap. Dark Selina Clan: !Brujah Capacity 9 Sabbat cardinal: Selina gets +1 stealth on political actions. Alex Camille Clan: !Gangrel Capacity 5 Sabbat: Once each action, Alex can burn 1 blood to get +1 intercept. Synner-G Clan: !Gangrel Capacity 5 Sabbat: Synner-G can untap after succesfully equipping with an electronic equipment from your hand. Mimir Clan: !Gangrel Capacity 10 Sabbat cardinal: Other methuselahs cannot play master cards that target Mimir. +1 bleed. Claudia Clan: Lasombra Capacity 2 Sabbat. Black Hand. Carolina Valez Clan: Lasombra Capacity 9 Sabbat Archbishop of Montreal: Carolina is immune to damage from allies and retainers. Badr, Shadow of Granada Clan: Lasombra Capacity 7 Independent: Cards requiring Obtenebration cost Badr 1 less blood. Pearl Clan: !Malkavian Capacity 4 Sabbat. Drozodny Clan: !Malkavian Capacity 7 Sabbat bishop: Drozodny can move a political action card from your ash heap to you hand as a +1 stealth action (discard afterward). Skulk Clan: !Nosferatu Capacity 4 Sabbat. Strohmann Clan: !Nosferatu Capacity 9 Sabbat Archbishop of Berlin: Reaction cards requiring Auspex cost 1 additional blood while Strohmann is acting. +1 bleed. Melusine d'Anjou Clan: !Toreador Capacity 8 Sabbat Archbishop of London: Once each action, if she is acting, Melusine can burn 1 blood to give a younger vampire -2 intercept. Amber Clan: !Toreador Capacity 5 Sabbat. Johannes Worringen Clan: !Tremere Capacity 6 Sabbat Archbishop of Amsterdam. Gerald FitzGerald Clan: !Tremere Capacity 7 Sabbat. Black Hand. Seraph: During your untap phase, Gerald can burn 1 blood to make a younger untitled Sabbat vampire you control Black Hand. Ludmijla Rakoczy Clan: Tzimisce Capacity 7 Sabbat bishop. Cards requiring Animalism cost Ludmijla 1 less blood. Righteous Endeavor Clan: Tzimisce Capacity 8 Sabbat priscus: Righteous gets +1 intercept against infernal minions and +1 strength in combat with an infernal minion. Xipe Totec Clan: Tzimisce Capacity 9 Sabbat Archbishop of Guatemala City: Xipe can steal a retainer or an ally as a +1 stealth D action that costs 1 blood. +1 strength. De Sade Clan: !Ventrue Capacity 9 Sabbat Archbishop of Paris: Vampires controlled by other Methuselahs must burn 1 blood to cast votes and ballots against referendums called by De Sade. Aimery Methuin Clan: !Ventrue Capacity 7 Sabbat: Younger Camarilla vampires get -1 intercept against Aimery. Karif al Numair Clan: Assamite Capacity 10 Sabbat. Black Hand: Durin your turn you can tap or untap another ready Black Hand vampire. +1 strength. +1 bleed. Library: Dark Steel Combat Discpline: Obtenebration/Potence Only usable before range is determined. A minion can play only one Dark Steel each combat. The opposing minion takes 1 damage each round of combat during normal strike resolution (at close range). This vampire gets an optional manuever this round, only usable to go to close range. As above, but for 2 damage. Esprit de Corps Action discpline: Potence/Presence +1 stealth action. Unique Put this card in play and untap this vampire. Minions you control get +1 strength. Burn this card during your untap phase. As above, and you can burn this card to cancel an action card requiring Dementation , Dominate , or Presence that would target you or a card you control as it is played, and its cost is not paid. Inside Dirt Action !Nosferatu D Burn the Edge to burn 2 blood from a vampire controlled by another Methuselah or to cause your prey to burn 2 pool. Instantaneous Transformation Action modifier Discpline: Celerity/Protean +1 stealth Only usable at the end of a succesful action (after action resolution). This vampire untaps. A vampire can play only one Instantaneous Transformation at superior each turn. Marked Territory Action !Gangrel +2 stealth action. Put this card on this vampire and untap him or her. You can burn this card to give this vampire +2 intercept during a D action against you. A vampire can have only one Marked Territory. Public Vilification Political Action Requires a titled Sabbat vampire. Choose a younger ready vampire controlled by another Methuselah. Succesful referendum means this vampire steals 3 blood from the chosen vampire. Recruitment Exercise Action +1 stealth action. Requires a Black Hand vampire. Show the top card of your crypt to all Methuselahs and move it to your uncontrolled region. Add 1 blood from the blood bank to it if it is a Black Hand vampire. Shadow Boxing Action Modifier/Combat Discpline: Obfuscate/Potence Manuever, only usable to go to close range, or press, only usable to continue combat. Only usable after a combat resulting from a block. Not usable if the blocking minion is ready. This vampire burns 1 blood to continue the action as if unblocked. Shakar: The Hunt Master Master: contract. Trifle. Unique. Requires a Black Hand vampire. Put this card on a ready minion. Every Black Hand vampire is considered chosen for this contract. Any Black Hand vampire can enter combat with this minion as a +1 stealth D action. Burn this card when this minion leaves the ready region. Show of Force Action Discpline: Potence/Presence D Bleed at +1 bleed. If this action is blocked, before range is determined during the first round of the resulting combat, this vampire can gain +1 strength this combat. D As above, but at +2 bleed. Spoils of War Action modifier !Brujah Only usable after a succesful D action. This vampire gains 1 blood and you gain 1 pool. Under Siege Action Cost: 1 pool +1 stealth action. Unique. Requires a titled Sabbat vampire. Put this card in play with 3 counters. Once each action, a Sabbat vampire you control can burn 1 counter from this card to untap and attempt to block with +1 intercept, even if intercept is not yet needed. Burn this card when it has no counters.