The first is the first

I had a quick question... I call a successfull first tradition: First Tradition: The Masquerade Political Action Requires a prince or justicar. If this referendum is successful, put this card in play. Each Methuselah must burn 2 pool during his or her untap phase. A Methuselah can choose to skip his or her entire turn. Burn this card when the controller has either skipped 3 turns or burned a total of 6 pool by this effect. Then during my second turn after skipping one turn I decide to spice things up take my turn and call another First tradition... does everyone have to pay for their turn until I have either passed 5 turns or payed 10 pool,now? thankyou kindly

Not quite. Each First Tradition creates a separate effect to be checked at the start of each turn. So, on your next turn, you get 3 choices: a) pay 2 pool each to both effects to take your turn b) pay 2 pool to either effect and be forced by the other to skip your turn c) pay 0 pool to both effect and be forced to skip your turn (counts has having skipped a turn for both effects) Reference: groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/q_BWWioWNR8/WSVHOFYINegJ Edit: So, if you wish to maximise the effect of both, you can do the following over your next few turns: - skip (A), skip (B) - pay for (A), pay for (B) and take a turn - skip (A), skip (B) (at this point, (A) ends) - pay for (B) and take a turn - skip (B) Suaku Inceptor Asian Continental Championship 興っ www.youtube.com/SuakuOz

> the1andonlime wrote: > Reference: > groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/q_BWWioWNR8/WSVHOFYINegJ > The wording changed quite a lot since then. LSJ faced an issue where he did not want there to be a "between turns" phase, so he changed the wording. > the1andonlime wrote: > Each First Tradition creates a separate effect to be checked at the start of each turn. So, on your next turn, you get 3 choices: > a) pay 2 pool each to both effects to take your turn > No. The current wording is that you can choose to skip your turn. If you take your turn, you have a "burn 2 pool" effect to order during your untap phase. If, for example, you are on 1 pool, you can enter your untap phase and use the 3 Vessels you have in play to gain 3 pool, then pay 2 pool. > the1andonlime wrote: > b) pay 2 pool to either effect and be forced by the other to skip your turn > No. If you skip your entire turn, you never enter your untap phase, and can never pay the 2 pool to the other First Tradition during your untap phase. > the1andonlime wrote: > c) pay 0 pool to both effect and be forced to skip your turn (counts has having skipped a turn for both effects) > The "pay 0" is wrong (there isn't an explicit payment now), but I'm not sure how this work now. Burn this card when the controller has either skipped 3 turns or burned a total of 6 pool by this effect. Is this "has either (skipped 3 turns) or (burned a total of six pool to this effect)" or "has either (skipped 3 turns or burned a total of six pool) to this effect"? That is, does "to this effect" apply to turn skipping or pool burning or both? Because if it's to both with two in play, you might choose to skip your turn with FT1 twice, then choose to skip your turn to FT2 twice, total duration 4 turns so far.

Id like to ask a question on this since this card is one that annoys me to no end. 1st question:If the controller of the First Trad can prolong the effect by skipping for two turns then opt to pay pool in the succeeding turns making it last for 5 turns (eg. turn 1 skip, turn 2 skip, turn 3 pay 2 pool take a turn, turn 4 pay 2 pool take a turn and finally turn 5 pay 2 pool effect ends)or does the "has either skipped 3 turns or burned total of 6 pool" count as either/or? 2nd question: is if said controller has two first Trads down, taking a turn counts as paying 4 pool or skipping his turn? Something like an all or none effect? So having two down doesn't prolong the effect right? It isn't cumulative?

> blackday wrote: > 1st question:If the controller of the First Trad can prolong the effect by skipping for two turns then opt to pay pool in the succeeding turns making it last for 5 turns (eg. turn 1 skip, turn 2 skip, turn 3 pay 2 pool take a turn, turn 4 pay 2 pool take a turn and finally turn 5 pay 2 pool effect ends)or does the "has either skipped 3 turns or burned total of 6 pool" count as either/or? > You can prolong it for five turns. You don't commit yourself to always skipping or always paying the pool. Nor is there any card text allowing the card to burn if you've skipped once and burned 4 pool. > blackday wrote: > 2nd question: is if said controller has two first Trads down, taking a turn counts as paying 4 pool or skipping his turn? Something like an all or none effect? So having two down doesn't prolong the effect right? It isn't cumulative? > There isn't a "pay pool or skip your turn" effect on the card, it doesn't work like that. If you take your turn, you'll be forced during your untap phase to burn 2 pool for each First Tradition in play. (Unless you can prematurely end your turn (Last Stand) or the game somehow (say, Sylvester Simms + Charnas the Imp).) Each of those pool burnings will count to their First Tradition. As to whether skipping counts for one or both First Traditions, that's not obvious to me with the new wording.

maybe we can get an official rules decision here. Paging Pascal...

> blackday wrote: > maybe we can get an official rules decision here. Paging Pascal... > About what? James's correct. Reading the cardtext leads to same result. > Each Methuselah must burn 2 pool during his or her untap phase. > => it's an effect that happens during the untap phase. You can order it as you want. > A Methuselah can choose to skip his or her entire turn. > => if he does, he hasn't any untap phase and therefore doesn't burn pool > Burn this card when the controller has either skipped 3 turns or burned a total of 6 pool by this effect. > => you must meet one of the two criteria to burn the card. So by skipping 2 turns and having burned 4 pool, the card is still there. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Sorry, i meant i was asking an official rules decision on whether skipping counts for one or for all First traditions in play and if its cost is the combined total of first trads in play(eg. 3 in play means 6 pool per turn taken). Since James wasnt 100% sure by the new wording. Since before he's been pretty spot on all the ruling questions he answered for me, so i wanted Pascal to make an official decision or clarification on this particular card.

Each First Tradition "remembers" how many times you've skipped your turn or how much pool you burned to it. "This effect" refers to the effect a given copy of First Tradition introduces. With 2 First Traditions in play under your control, you can very much have skipped your turn twice to First Tradition A, and then skipped twice your turn to First Tradition B.