Avoiding combat

Around here we have, from what I understand from reading stuff online, a slightly "strange" metagame. It is -very- combat-heavy. Both intercept-combat, rush-combat, bruise-bleed etc... This generally makes it hard to play things like politics or decks with not that much stealth since I can almost be sure that I'll end up with a predator running immortal grapple (destroying my chances at combat ends) or similiar very annoying combat cards (or for that manner, plenty of tremere second round agg-damage...damn I hate uta kovacs). From what I can see on decks online, other playgroups don't seem to be that combat-heavy which leads me to believe that combat isn't really the best way of winning. However I'm having quite the sore taste in my mouth from all of the torporized vampires I keep getting (and you can't win without vampires). What is the optimal anti-combat tech in your opinion? Is there any deck-type that especially excels at handling combat-decks that I could focus on in order to mess with the copious amounts of combat around here?

Marconius with obediences and faerie wards. Practically immune to vampire combat , unless it is Hardestadt or Enkidu rushing you. I have stood in front of 6 ANI minions with Nana Buruku alone with Marconius, and none did pass .

Option #1 Aus + Dom + For Big-caps. Basically a Ventrue-Anti Teflon deck. Block everything happening around you... Anyone you block gets Obedience played on them... any bleeds your Predator makes gets flicked and if you somehow get busted doing something, you get out of it with Fortitude. Option #2 For + Pro Bleed with Prevent and Agg-Poke. If you get busted by someone, hold a pile of prevent and Agg-Poke to torporise them more often than you. Option #3 Trapparition + S&B Ravnos Trap + Apparition to do maximum damage for minimum card-use. The rest of the deck should be S&B. Option #4 Block'em and Bin'em Ravnos Animalism Retainers & Trapparition (can be adjusted into the Zip Gun w/ Mass Reality trick) 8+ Draba, Apparition, Trap, Raven Spy/Raptor... bleed them over the sleeping torpored vampires. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

Ah, the days when it felt sensible to include 30 foritude cards in an otherwise ordinary !Ventrue deck, and it cycled, too... Tremere boredom prince deck with obediences should handle combat pretty well. Imbued also handle many styles of combat p. well since they don't burn in the same way as vampires, are immune to aggravated damage, hit back and you can't taste of vitae off them. But basically, there's nothing wrong with just S:CE. What happens when a combat deck doesn't draw Immortal Grapple? He's going to cry because he knows he loses roughly 6 pool because of the failed rush. I think combat decks often fail because playing them isn't as easy as playing a straightforward prey damager deck.

> Option #3 > Trapparition + S&B Ravnos > Trap + Apparition to do maximum damage for minimum card-use. The rest of the deck should be S&B. > You know, I've seen this tactic mentioned before but I have never understood how it actually works. Trap just provides presses to continue, and Apparition prevents 1 or 2 damage per round of combat for 1 blood. How does this "counter" combat-heavy decks? Torn Signpost + Immortal Grapple + Slam is 5 damage and usually the combat-deck wants to continue fighting so Trap would only be in his favour. Apparition would let me prevent 2 of those 5 (which - of course - isn't a bad deal), but it would still hurt pretty badly. Exaclty how does trapparition work? Am I missing something here?

> wastaz wrote: > Exaclty how does trapparition work? Am I missing something here? > You are missing that you can play Apparition multiple times in a combat. So with just two prevention cards you prevent up to four damage per round. That is insanely good. Combined with Carrion Crows a Trap becomes highly threatening for other decks. Regarding avoiding combat: What about Alpha Glint with big caps like Stanislava? Combat Ends without fearing Immortal Grapple is very nice. It doesn't protect you from Psyche! though, but also from Thoughts Betrayed. Baron of Frankfurt

Obedience, Mental Maze are great. Swallowed by the night + combat ends. Illusions of the kindred fears nothing but Telepathic Tracking. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Demnogonis wrote: > But basically, there's nothing wrong with just S:CE. What happens when a combat deck doesn't draw Immortal Grapple? > Also, don't rely only on those nifty untapping Majesties. Charismatic Aura is also a S:CE but it can be used to cancel the opposing minion's strike card or grapple card. Extremely nice if you've seen the opposing combat monster's hand (Owl Companion, Sennadurek, Le Din Tho, Revelations etc) and know he's only holding one copy of Immortal Grapple. Multiple Apparitions is sheer goodness. If Protean is available then Flesh of Marble also rocks! Finnish Politics!

> wastaz wrote: > Around here we have, from what I understand from reading stuff online, a slightly "strange" metagame. It is -very- combat-heavy. Both intercept-combat, rush-combat, bruise-bleed etc... > I'll tell you what I did when some players in my playgroup devoted themselves to irrationally heavy combat decks. I built a Ravnos deck using Illusions of the Kindred as combat defense and offense (the card temporarily brings out a vampire to enter combat with the opposing minion). The illusionary vampire (a Ravnos with superior Chimestry ) maneuvered to long with Amria, and then struck for 1 unpreventable aggravated damage with Mayaparisatya, and Amaranthed any opposing vampires. Soon Mictlantecuhtli and his Talbot's Chainsaw were history, along with Enkidu and other nasty combat beasts. Another way I have used to make the game of the combat decks around extremely miserable has been by playing a weenie Fortitude deck based on the Trap + Undead Persistence combo. Poor things If you keep playing this kind of decks over and over again, your metagame may change into something more reasonable V:EKN Website Coordinator

> wastaz wrote: > What is the optimal anti-combat tech in your opinion? > > Is there any deck-type that especially excels at handling combat-decks that I could focus on in order to mess with the copious amounts of combat around here? > If your plan is to show up to a game night with decks that screw with combat, just to throw a wrench in the works, the likely optimal plans are: -11 cap AUS/DOM minion with 30 Obediences and a bunch of Smiling Jacks. Elimelech is probably the good plan these days, as you can use some Seraph tech for fun, and as he is Sabbat, you can include Power Base: Branquilla for long term pool gain. Never take actions. Get out Elimelech. Stand there. When someone rushes you, you play Obedience. When someone tries to kill Jack, you block and play Obedience. Have a handful of Sudden Reversals to stop Pentex and someone contesting Smiling Jack. -Plain, brown old school FOR/DOM Ventrue. Put in, like, 30 Rolling with the Punches and some Pulled Fangs. The rest of the deck is, like, Scouting Mission and Bonding for bleeds of 3 at +1 stealth. -Weenie fortitude Trap/Undying Tenacity. They rush your 2 or 3 cap. You don't go to torpor and run them out of cards and damage them. You eventually run them over with lots of weenies. Keep in mind that if you are expecting a lot of combat, you probably don't need a lot of pool gain or bleed defense. And your opponents probably won't have a lot of pool gain.

10 copies of Botched Move!

> Lönkka wrote: > > Charismatic Aura is also a S:CE but it can be used to cancel the opposing minion's strike card or grapple card. Extremely nice if you've seen the opposing combat monster's hand (Owl Companion, Sennadurek, Le Din Tho, Revelations etc) and know he's only holding one copy of Immortal Grapple. > Actually you can play only one Immortal Grapple each round anyway. That makes CA even better. Baron of Frankfurt

And don't forget Nu-Tremere Royalty with Mirror Walks AND Obediences. Make it so that it Runs: Villeins Golgondas Mirror Walks Obediences Second Traditions and Eyes of Argus Some other stealth (veil the legions) Govern the unaligned Conditionings Crypt accelerators like Information Highway and Zillah's valley. Nothing fancy, but feasible. You can add enough 2nd Traditions to play Obedience (for example when empty vampire hunts - it will hunt next turn also). ---- Banging trashcans, breaking windows We'll wake you up tonight We like the good time, we scream and shout And that's what fun's about

Stealth bleed with 2-3 secure havens & 5-6 secret passages wasn't mentioned. But also there are anti-combat strategies which is playable with any deck: 1. Cross-table ally for rescue from torpor. 2. Influensing no minions (or just don't acting if the are high possibility of block) 3. Dealing Also goot way is to put some combat in your deck and join the fun! NC Russia

Like Peter says above, Trap+Undead Persistence on weenie fortitude is pretty much a trump to most combat out there. If you aren't seeing end combat at all it can be downright scary. I've run a version with ani/for weenies, the ani was just to get Drawing Out the Beast, which would even prevent your opponent from pressing to end combat.

Shamblers are awesome against combat heavy decks, rush or block rushes, hit hard and opponent cant tast. Combo with FBI and ppl will think twice before rushing you. If there are alot of blockers seduction and call the hungry dead can be used both for shamblers and powerbleed... Prince of Lidingö

undead persistence weenies is annoyingly strong. just last night, my predator was playing one and i was running my Ignazio deck. i had to rip the arms off of 4 minions (undead persistence triggers off of sending them to torpor, then taking their arm sends them directly there, or if they play it to avoid the disarm's trip, they are at -2 strength with big potence) and i also graverobbed 2 minions. and my deck is very strong combat. if you're looking to superbly cheese-off combat players, thats a deck that does it very well. fortitude version of penitent resilience and flash grenade is possible. i like having combat in my decks, just because its good to be able to fight back against combat, and also to possibly bully non-combat decks. it always depends on what kind of combat you are having issues with, and what decks you're running.

Direct Intervention is the cure for what ails you. Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

> Joscha wrote: > Actually you can play only one Immortal Grapple each round anyway. That makes CA even better. > Duh... Finnish Politics!

> Bell wrote: > Like Peter says above, Trap+Undead Persistence on weenie fortitude is pretty much a trump to most combat out there. If you aren't seeing end combat at all it can be downright scary. I've run a version with ani/for weenies, the ani was just to get Drawing Out the Beast, which would even prevent your opponent from pressing to end combat. > Indeed opponents pressing out of the combat is a big problem for for weeneis. Shoulder Drop could be used to control presses to lesser extent (as it is just for the current round). As are opponents that continuously do aggravated damage. Getting aggravated damage after you've been hanging on in combat with Undead Persistence kinda does to you what should be done to them... Finnish Politics!

I have had fairly nice success with my DoC breed boons never get into combat method of approaching it, which combines doing mainly actions with inherent stealth, change of targets, and members of entourage to deal with rushes to make others choke on their red cards.

Has anyone used Sleep Unseen as a method of combat avoidance? To any success?

I've played Sleep Unseen, and had it played in games by other players. It has never mattered. Usually because no rush decks appeared at that table.

> Dasein wrote: > Has anyone used Sleep Unseen as a method of combat avoidance? To any success? > Just use more stealth. That, or more Swallowed by the Night. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

Play a mid-cap Auspex-Presence tap and bleed with Charismatic Auras + Majesty and play a bunch of them. I mean 14+. I've seen such decks sweeping otherwise all combat tables like a knife cuts through butter... NC for Hungary hunfragment.blogspot.com

> Dasein wrote: > Has anyone used Sleep Unseen as a method of combat avoidance? > To any success? > Yes and yes, but it's by no means perfect. It's seldom worth playing at obf - inferior Auspex is splashed around on enough vampires that the obf prohibition often isn't enough protection to be worthwhile, although it is enough to shut down allies. The "after a successful action" requirement can bite. It's also only better than Secret Passage if you're likely to see multiple rush attempts in a round. -- National Coordinator South Africa