Frontal Assault(s)

I noticed that Frontal Assault is neither unique, nor does it say you can only have one in play at a time. So...can you have more than one in play at a time? I understand you wouldn't be able to double rush the same minion Would you gain a pool for each Frontal Assault in play or does only one count? So, something like a Parthenon and Anson might allow for 3 Frontal Assaults at once. Is there some standing "a Methuselah may only gain 1 pool per minion" rule I don't know about?

Frontal Assault Master. Put this card in play. Each ready minion you control may enter combat with any minion controlled by your prey as a action. You gain 1 pool each time a ready minion controlled by your prey is burned or sent to torpor. During your influence phase, burn this card and burn 1 pool for each ready minion controlled by your prey. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

Actually, you might be able to get three rushes on the same minion because each Frontal Assault provides an "enter combat action". So I'd want Pascal to confirm that multiple Frontal Assaults do/do not provide a rush on a minion from each Frontal Assault (Just as you can rush multiple minions with a different Haven Uncovered on each). Assuming that each copy of Frontal Assault is treated separately, then 2x Frontal Assault = 2 pool for each torpor/burned minion of your prey. n x Frontal Assault = n pool for each torpor/burned minion of your prey and - n pool for each ready minion. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

What exactly happens if you both put them in torpor AND burn them?

Can't torpor and burn a ready minion. You get to do one or the other. If they never reach torpor then they were burned not torpored. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

If you have n Front Assault in play, each of your minions can take n actions to enter combat with your preys' minions. You can rush either the same minion or another one as you wish. Each time you burn/send to torpor one of your prey's minion, you gain n pools. And during your influence phase, you burn n pool for each ready minion.

Yup, misread the "ready" part. What about the original question? Any idea what happens if you have more than 1 in play?

They are two different copies of a card in play so each of your minions gets 2 possible rushes (if he can untap of course). Any of your minions can rush the same target twice with those rushes. The pool effects stack. You gain 2 pool per burnt/torporized minion, and you lose 2 pool per ready minion during your influence phase.

That was my hope, but I can't seem to find a ruling on that anywhere.

Why do you need a ruling? It is all in the rules, section 6.1.6. That is not the most clearly written part of the rules to say the least, but it is there nonetheless.

> yesferatu wrote: > That was my hope, but I can't seem to find a ruling on that anywhere. > The multiple rush action part is just the same as having two Haven Uncovereds in play - either on the same vampire or different vampires. Each card in play provides a distinct action, so you don't get hit by the repeat actions rules restrictions. [LSJ 20030311] > > LSJ wrote: > > 3) The new NRA do prevent entering combat with the same vampire during > > the same turn with two different Haven Uncovered? If memory serves, > > No. > That is, the questioner was wrong - you can use two Havens to rush the same vampire. (Assuming they're both on the same vampire, obviously.) The same applies to Frontal Assault, or any other master card that provides an action where you can have multiple of the same master in play. Say, Contract.

I think you're missing the point of the original question. If I have 3 Frontal Assaults in play and I burn a minion, do I gain 3 pool?

I don't see why not.

> yesferatu wrote: > If I have 3 Frontal Assaults in play and I burn a minion, do I gain 3 pool? > Yes. Like other effects in V:TES, the effect stacks by default. [LSJ 20061018] > > LSJ wrote: > >> Does this card [Frontal Assault] stack? > > > > Sure, > Correct. >

Neat. Thanks. Now, to be an extra pain in the ass...does a single copy allow a one of your minions to rush multiple targets? Rush...freak drive...rush...freak drive...rush?

> Now, to be an extra pain in the ass...does a single copy allow a one of your minions to rush multiple targets? > No, a minion can use an action provided by a card only once a turn. Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.

> yesferatu wrote: > Now, to be an extra pain in the ass... > The e-pita part of frontal assault is that it not such a good idea to oust your prey in the same turn you played frontal assault. Read frontal assault out loud. About halfway, think 'ooh, I ousted my prey'. Then continue reading, and feel the shiver that runs down your spine in your influence phase, when you realise that your former grandprey is an embracing breeder. www.facebook.com/groups/vtes.belgium/

Now I'm tempted to make a deck with only Frontal/Fame/Humanitas/Catacombs & tons of Freak drives restorations and Ambush/Bum Rushes... and pick on Smudge ... oh throw in a tension in the ranks... for fun

Correct answers scattered all over this thread. Here's the basis: > > Rulebook wrote: > To take the action described by a card in play, announce the action and tap the acting minion. If the action is successful, it resolves as indicated on the card (and the cost, if any, is paid). If the action is unsuccessful, there is no effect. > A minion cannot perform an action with the same action card more than once each turn, even if he untaps. A minion cannot perform each action via the same card in play (including from the minion's own card text) more than once each turn, even if he untaps. > Say you played 3 Frontal Assaults. Your Anson enters combat [via Frontal Assault #1] with your prey's Dimple, and sends him to torpor. You gain 3 pool (1 from each Frontal Assault). Your Anson untaps (Helicopter, Monster, Freak Drive, ...). He now enters combat [via Frontal Assault #2] with your prey's KoKo, and sends him to torpor. Here's another 3 pool. However, during your influence phase, your prey still has 5 ready Third Tradition: Progeny, so you burn 15 pool.

Thanks, Pascal. That's how I thought it worked, but I couldn't find a ruling. It's sort of a weird usage. I made a Black Spiral Buddies deck and ended up putting 5 minions in torpor. 15 pool is much better than 5.

Can you please post your decklist ? Pentex Board of Directors Prince of Oye Plage Alastor Grand Nord

It's a work in progress...but here are the basics: Denette Stensen x 3 Jesús Alcalá x 3 Leo Washington x 3 Bill Butler x 2 Lula Burch x 2 60 Cards Master: 18 Blood Doll x 5 Charisma x 2 Frontal Assault x 5 House of Sorrow Hungry Coyote Parthenon Twisted Forest Tension in the Ranks x 2 Allies: 5 Black Spiral Buddy x 5 Actions: 10 Bum's Rush x 5 Computer Hacking (or camera phone) x 5 Combat: 20 Dodge x 5 Fake Out x 5 Glancing Blow x 5 Quick Jab x 5 Reaction: 5 On the Que Vive x 5 Misc: 2 Dragonbound The Unmasking

Looks squishy if your hand clumps. Looks like it does what your after though...... Add abbots? I think 2 caps who are sabbot using dbr and 38s would be more efficient, but i dont like bsb in decks other than sebasion ghoulet(even then, its not as aweaome as id like....) Good eye for the concept though. Someday i may try railgun reality with frontal assault( mass reality plus horrid reality finding flamthrowrrs....)

Adding anything other than core would slow it down too much. With the mix I've got, clumping shouldn't be a problem. The baby !Gangrel are there to get out werewolves and feed me - they're exceptionally squishy. I've toyed with switching to Renegades or using mono-protean agg poke, but we'll see where this one goes first.

Let me know how it does. With the frontals, im not sure garou is worth the pool investment. But ive been wrong before aboit wolves.(as it turns out, computer hacking wins with tunnel runners better than deepsong.....)

You'd need to switch up the hand damage a bit, but you could take out the bum's rushes and the fake outs. It's a different deck, but I think if it's quick, it could work. Ideally, you have 2-5 gangrel babies hunting for you every turn, the garou pay for themselves pretty quickly. If I were serious, I'd probably focus on 100% forward pressure and just hope my predator doesn't pull anything horrible. It's hard to outpace 2-5 pool gain a turn.

Parthenon, The Type: Master Cost: 2 pool Master: unique location. Tap during your master phase to get an additional master phase action. house of sorrow do NOT allow for 3 MPA with parthenon.

Why not exactly? *With both Parthenon & House of Sorrows in play* 1. Play Frontal Assault 2. Tap Parthenon 3. Play another Frontal Assault 4. Tap House of Sorrows to untap Parthenon 5. Tap Parthenon to get another master phase action 6. Play third Frontal Assault Unless I'm missing something, I'm pretty sure that works.

the keyword "during" means "once during" and not "any amount of time during" in VTES.

> yesferatu wrote: > Why not exactly? > LSJ wanted it that way. > yesferatu wrote: > *With both Parthenon & House of Sorrows in play* > 1. Play Frontal Assault > 2. Tap Parthenon > 3. Play another Frontal Assault > 4. Tap House of Sorrows to untap Parthenon > Completely legal to this point. > yesferatu wrote: > 5. Tap Parthenon to get another master phase action. > This you cannot do. LSJ August 27, 2009 Also LSJ December 7, 2004

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that refers to "during" as in "in the middle of an action" not during a phase. Ventrue Directorate would be in the middle of a referendum. You could tap the Directorate Assembly during that referendum, then use the House of Sorrows after the vote resolves to untap it and then tap it again during a different referendum. Obviously, you can't use Heidelberg "during" combat or as a response to being blocked. The card text says it cannot be used during an action. The end of your Master phase is still "during" your Master phase. As long as you haven't started your Minion phase, it's still "during" your Master phase. You could use House of Sorrows to untap an Eco Terrorists to put down blood twice during your influence phase, right? ***and now that I think about it...that means you couldn't give yourself 2 stealth with a twisted forest or double intercept off a KCRG.*** Those are both during an action though and not during a specific phase. If you couldn't use House of Sorrows twice during the same phase, what would be the point of playing it?

> yesferatu wrote: > Correct me if I'm wrong, but that refers to "during" as in "in the middle of an action" not during a phase. Ventrue Directorate would be in the middle of a referendum. > > You could tap the Directorate Assembly during that referendum, then use the House of Sorrows after the vote resolves to untap it and then tap it again during a different referendum. > Moot. You can't tap the Ventrue Directorate Assembly. > > Name: Ventrue Directorate Assembly > Cardtype: Master > Clan: Ventrue > Cost: 2 pool > Master. > Put this card in play. Each ready Ventrue gets an additional vote during political actions. This card may be burned by any minion as a action; Brujah get +1 stealth when attempting that action. > > yesferatu wrote: > Obviously, you can't use Heidelberg "during" combat or as a response to being blocked. > > The end of your Master phase is still "during" your Master phase. > As long as you haven't started your Minion phase, it's still "during" your Master phase. > > You could use House of Sorrows to untap an Eco Terrorists to put down blood twice during your influence phase, right? > Can't do. Ecoterrorists clearly states "During your influence phase, tap to ...". > > Name: Ecoterrorists > Cardtype: Master > Clan: Gangrel > Cost: 2 pool > Master: unique location. > During your influence phase, tap to move 1 blood from the blood bank to a Gangrel in your uncontrolled region. > > yesferatu wrote: > ***and now that I think about it...that means you couldn't give yourself 2 stealth with a twisted forest or double intercept off a KCRG.*** > Those are both during an action though and not during a specific phase. > If you couldn't use House of Sorrows twice during the same phase, what would be the point of playing it? > As usual, I *highly* recommend quoting cardtext . The reason for Parthenon not to be usable twice in a Methuselah's master phase is because The Parthenon reads "During your master phase, ...". (see the 2009 link provided by Adonai) Now, let's look at KRCG, Twisted Forest: > > Name: KRCG News Radio > Cardtype: Master > Cost: 2 pool > Master: unique location. > Tap to give +1 intercept to a minion you control, or tap this location and burn 1 pool to give +1 intercept to a minion controlled by another Methuselah. > > Name: Twisted Forest > Cardtype: Master > Clan: Gangrel antitribu > Cost: 2 pool > Master: unique location. > Tap to give a Gangrel antitribu you control +1 stealth. > See it? No? That's because it's not there. Yep, "During X do Y" is not the template used on these cards. Here's a link for a "ruling" from LSJ: [LSJ 20081126] wrote: > > > Can I use the effect of the first card again immediately - e.g., to > > get +2 stealth for the same acting Lasombra with Elysian Fields, or > > to > > get +2 intercept for a blocking minion from the same KRCG News Radio? > Sure. Card text. >

General rulings: Terminology: •"During time period X, (you may) do Y" limits Y to once per phase X. [LSJ 19970625]

I just don't see it. You could play a Frontal Assault, tap the Parthenon, which stores an additional master phase action in the middle of your master phase - untap it with the House - because you're still have a master phase action stored, play the second FA, tap the Parthenon again...and play the last FA. The master phase is not the same as mid action or combat. I think the example mentioned Ventrue Headquarters and I misremembered it. The House of Sorrows clearly breaks the once per phase rule or else you could never use it on stealth locations and such during the minion phase.

> yesferatu wrote: > I just don't see it. You could play a Frontal Assault, tap the Parthenon, which stores an additional master phase action in the middle of your master phase - untap it with the House - because you're still have a master phase action stored, play the second FA, tap the Parthenon again...and play the last FA. The master phase is not the same as mid action or combat. > I think the example mentioned Ventrue Headquarters and I misremembered it. > The section in orange is incorrect. You cannot use a "During X, do Y" effect more than once per X. Trivial examples: Blood Doll (can't be used to Minion Tap your vampire): > > Name: Blood Doll > Cardtype: Master > Master. > Put this card on a vampire you control. During his or her master phase, this vampire's controller may move 1 blood from this vampire to his or her pool or from his or her pool to this vampire. > Powerbase: Montreal > > Name: Powerbase: Montreal > Cardtype: Master > Master: unique location. > During your influence phase, you may move 1 blood from the blood bank to a vampire in your uncontrolled region. Any vampire may steal this location for his or her controller as a action. > And it would be the same for Ventrue Headquarters - they can only be tapped once per referendum. > > Name: Ventrue Headquarters > Cardtype: Master > Clan: Ventrue > Cost: 1 pool > Master: unique location. > During a referendum, you may tap this card to gain 3 votes. > The ruling (which has now become a rule per se) is that if a card reads "during X, do Y", then you can only perform Y once per X via the given card. > yesferatu wrote: > The House of Sorrows clearly breaks the once per phase rule or else you could never use it on stealth locations and such during the minion phase. > wrong. It "breaks" it because it untaps cards. It won't break a card that uses a "during" keyword, because]/i] there's a "during" keyword on it. Let's take another example: [LSJ 20090417] wrote:] > > > Reading the newsgroup, I've seen multiple references to the idea that > > one can untap the Enkil Cog in order to take a second action in > > another player's minion phase. However, the wording of Enkil Cog > > (pasted below) suggests that this is not allowed because it follows > > the "during X do Y" format. Is this correct? > > > > Requires a vampire of capacity 10 or more. Unique. > > Only usable when this vampire successfully bleeds your prey (play > > after resolution). Put this card on this vampire. ***During any > > Methuselah's minion phase, this vampire may tap this card to attempt > > an action.*** This vampire has +1 bleed. > Correct, it is not allowed. > Now, there has been several answers, references to rulings and Rulebook quotes on this matter supporting the fact that you can't "break" the Parthenon with House of Sorrows. If you have a reference (rather than an expressed thought) pointing towards the contrary, please share it.

> yesferatu wrote: > I just don't see it. You could play a Frontal Assault, tap the Parthenon, which stores an additional master phase action in the middle of your master phase - untap it with the House - because you're still have a master phase action stored, play the second FA, tap the Parthenon again... > The sequence of events (whether you play FA right after tapping the Parthenon or later) has nothing to do with the fact you can't use The Parthenon more than once during the master phase (due to the During X do Y template) > Name: The Parthenon > Tap during your master phase to get an additional master phase action. > > yesferatu wrote: > The master phase is not the same as mid action or combat. > What do you mean exactly? > yesferatu wrote: > The House of Sorrows clearly breaks the once per phase rule > Wrong assumption. It does only what it does: untap a card. > yesferatu wrote: > or else you could never use it on stealth locations and such during the minion phase. > "Minion phase" is irrelevant. Once again, you make an assumption on designer's intent. Wherever it's a stealth location or not, the relevant part is "can I use it more than once?". KRCG doesn't use the "During X do Y" and therefore is not restricted. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I swear I'm not trying to be argumentative. The rule just seems strange. 1. I understand things like Powerbase Montreal or Blood Dolls being used once. They don't tap, obviously, so you can only use them once. 2. It was my understanding that the "tap" mechanic was the limiting factor on cards like Twisted Forest, Heidelberg, and The Parthenon. Once they're tapped - you've used them once and they are done. If they somehow become untapped, they are reset and you can use them again. 3. House of Sorrows allows you to untap a card, which resets it. It was my understanding that unless the card is tapped, as long as the conditions are met, you can still use it. 4. I wasn't aware that "during" and "once during" are the same thing. "During" designates when the card can be used, "once during" further specifies when AND how often it can be used. In that case, it clearly says - no matter what - a card can only be used once. 5. Pentex Loves You, for example says: "Master: unique location. You may tap this card and choose a Sabbat vampire. ONCE during the current action, the chosen vampire may burn 1 blood to get +1 bleed." The Rumor Mill works the same way. "Tap to choose a vampire. ONCE during the current action, the chosen vampire may burn 1 blood to get +1 intercept." As does Wall Street Night: "Tap to select a minion you control. ONCE this turn, the chosen minion may move a counter from an investment card controlled by any Methuselah to your pool as a +1 stealth action." The card text says ONCE. When the designers mean once per turn or once per action, it looks like they include it on the card text. So, even if the card is untapped, the card text says it can only be used ONCE. No matter what. Angela Preston: "Camarilla: Angela must burn 1 blood to attempt to block an older vampire. You may tap Angela during your influence phase to untap any other vampire." She doesn't have the ONCE per Influence phase text, because there is no way for her to untap during the influence phase, since she is a minion. Including ONCE in her text would be redundant. As far as I know, she could only be become untapped again during a minion phase. You wouldn't need to include the text, because there is no way for her to become untapped again "during" the influence phase. Cock Robin: "Camarilla Nosferatu Justicar: ONCE per turn, when Cock Robin successfully performs an action that requires Animalism [ani] , he untaps at the end of the action. +1 strength." The designers aren't shy about using the term ONCE. 6. Since Parthenon does not say ONCE in the description and I'm not sure "during a phase" and "once per turn" are the same thing, I'm confused.

> yesferatu wrote: > I swear I'm not trying to be argumentative. The rule just seems strange. > Reading the rulebook is hard, I know. > yesferatu wrote: > 1. I understand things like Powerbase Montreal or Blood Dolls being used once. They don't tap, obviously, so you can only use them once. > "During X, do Y" has nothing to do with tapping or not tapping. Nothing whatsoever. Nothing. At all. Under any circusmtances. > yesferatu wrote: > 2. It was my understanding that the "tap" mechanic was the limiting factor on cards like Twisted Forest, Heidelberg, and The Parthenon. Once they're tapped - you've used them once and they are done. If they somehow become untapped, they are reset and you can use them again. > This is a rule you have made up out of thin air. > yesferatu wrote: > 3. House of Sorrows allows you to untap a card, which resets it. It was my understanding that unless the card is tapped, as long as the conditions are met, you can still use it. > This is a rule that you have made up out of thin air. There is nothign about House of Sorrows that resets anything. It simply changes the tappedness of a card. > yesferatu wrote: > 4. I wasn't aware that "during" and "once during" are the same thing. > The rulebook explains the "During X, do Y" template. See "Wording templates". > yesferatu wrote: > Angela Preston: > "Camarilla: Angela must burn 1 blood to attempt to block an older vampire. You may tap Angela during your influence phase to untap any other vampire." > > She doesn't have the ONCE per Influence phase text, because there is no way for her to untap during the influence phase, since she is a minion. > There is nothing preventing a minion untapping in your influence phase. Alexandra, for example. (Plus a clan change, obviously.) > yesferatu wrote: > Including ONCE in her text would be redundant. As far as I know, she could only be become untapped again during a minion phase. > Making up rulings based on random, unsubstantiated, incorrect assertions that you are making is massively unhelpful. Minions become untapped outside the minion phase pretty regularly! (Like, every untap phase.) > yesferatu wrote: > You wouldn't need to include the text, because there is no way for her to become untapped again "during" the influence phase. > Except, there is. > yesferatu wrote: > The designers aren't shy about using the term ONCE. > But don't always use it, because the "during X" template has been widely ruled on for many, many, many years. > yesferatu wrote: > 6. Since Parthenon does not say ONCE in the description and I'm not sure "during a phase" and "once per turn" are the same thing, I'm confused. > During X, do Y means once during X, do Y. Whether X is a whole turn, a whole phase, or a tiny timing window. This has been ruled on repeatedly and often, and is now included in the rulebook.

1.1. Important Terms in the Game Tapping and Untapping: The concept of tapping and untapping is a unique feature in Deckmaster games. During play, you will turn cards sideways to "tap" them, indicating that the cards have been used for some particular purpose or effect. Untapping a card restores it to its original position, indicating that the card is reset and will be able to be tapped again later. Only untapped minions can take actions, block the actions of other minions, or play reaction cards (see Minion Phase, sec. 6). Wording templates “During X, do Y”: The “during X do Y” template is used in several cards. When this template is used, only one Y can be done per X with this card. For instance, you may move blood from your vampire to your pool with Vessel only once per untap phase. Vessel does not depend on the tap mechanic, which...you know...exists. So how do you square the top rule with the bottom rule?

> yesferatu wrote: > 1.1. Important Terms in the Game > > Tapping and Untapping: The concept of tapping and untapping is a unique feature in Deckmaster games. During play, you will turn cards sideways to "tap" them, indicating that the cards have been used for some particular purpose or effect. Untapping a card restores it to its original position, indicating that the card is reset and will be able to be tapped again later. Only untapped minions can take actions, block the actions of other minions, or play reaction cards (see Minion Phase, sec. 6). > Yes, you can use it later (later doesn't necessarily imply right this second), but there's a restriction on using it, from the during X, do Y template. Which is also in the rulebook.

> yesferatu wrote: > 5. Pentex Loves You, for example says: > "Master: unique location. > You may tap this card and choose a Sabbat vampire. ONCE during the current action, the chosen vampire may burn 1 blood to get +1 bleed." > > The Rumor Mill works the same way. > "Tap to choose a vampire. ONCE during the current action, the chosen vampire may burn 1 blood to get +1 intercept." > > As does Wall Street Night: > "Tap to select a minion you control. ONCE this turn, the chosen minion may move a counter from an investment card controlled by any Methuselah to your pool as a +1 stealth action." > > The card text says ONCE. When the designers mean once per turn or once per action, it looks like they include it on the card text. > Last sentence is wrong (at least in those case). The fact is its hard to reword the card differently. You can't write for instance: "Tap this card during an action to give a Sabbat vampire +1 bleed." since it's a completely different effect. It's the controlled who choses to burn a blood (or not). You can't write neither: "Tap this card during an action to give a Sabbat vampire the possibility of burning a blood to get +1 bleed." because it's still not the same effect (the burn blood effect may be used later during the action, not at the exact moment the Pentex is tapped). So you would have to write : "Tap this card during an action to give a Sabbat vampire the possibility of burning a blood during this action to get +1 bleed." but this wording is very clumsy. Hence the actual wording. The "once" has nothing to do with a deliberate would-be opposition to a "during X do Y" that wouldn't be restricted to one Y per X (which is wrong) Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > Last sentence is wrong (at least in those case). The fact is its hard to reword the card differently. > Actually, you could just drop the "once". "Tap this card and choose a Sabbat vampire. During this action, the chosen vampire may..." (Inconsistent card texts are inconsistent. Which is why we have the ruling. Which is in the rulebook.)

Thanks for clarifying the ruling. Those two rules looked contradictory to me. I don't want to be a jerk about it, but cards are occasionally inconsistent and the examples used - even in the rules - don't always appear to apply.

I always tap my blood dolls and hunting grounds, and even do somehting with the edge IF I have it... just as a reminder that they have been used... this doesn't break any rules that I know of, does it?

It does, in case someone steals them. Tapping means the card is not usable until it untaps, which usually means until the begining of the next untap phase of their controller. Blood Doll and hunting grounds are usable once per untap/master phase of their controller. So if someone steals your hunting ground during their untap phase, then it would not untap, but it is still usable.

> delangen wrote: > I always tap my blood dolls and hunting grounds, and even do somehting with the edge IF I have it... just as a reminder that they have been used... this doesn't break any rules that I know of, does it? > Not recommended. You wouldn't tap, say, Owain Evans during your untap phase, just because you used his ability. You wouldn't do it, because nothing tells you to do it. It could be confusing for other players to see a tapped card in your play area. Suppose your vampire has a Blood Doll and a Corporal Reservoir, and one of them is tapped. Another player might assume that, since Blood Dolls can't tap (apart from Remover..), the tapped card has to be a Corporal Reservoir, and, thus, it's safe for him to hit your vampire for 1 agg. I would recommend not to do what cards don't tell you to do. Other "famous" examples: A player used Lilith's Blessing (before it was banned) and turned one of his minions to Bahari. He decided to use a coin to mark the vampire as Bahari. A while later, his predator saw 1 counter on his vampire, and assumed it was a blood counte (since nothing had been played that could have given that vampire a counter of any kind). His predator feared a Deflection would be played, and restricted his bleed. Again : someone did something they weren't told, and caused a misrepresentation of the game state for another player. Answering "If you had paid some attention, we woudln't be facing a situation" isn't right, as they did nothing wrong. It's not difficult to remember which Vessels / Blood Dolls you've used. Usually, you only have 4 of them (tops). And the untap phase isn't that long (usually ... it's another affair with Nehemia + Heart of Nizchetus), and so is the master phase (barring any Ashur Tablets gimmicks). So, again, I would recommend: stick to cardtext. At least, it's the same for everyone. Habits aren't. Or maybe they are, but only if you stick with the same group of players, with whom you share these habits. Try to think as a new player entering the group "I don't understand why you tapped that Blood Doll when you used it, but not that .44 Magnum when you stroke with it.."

I suppose I could be nice and re-tap them at the end of the phase... It gets confusing at end game...example from a few weeks ago: My prey had to deal with: in play was Smiling jack w/5 on him, A Famed torporized vamp, an antediluvian awakening, a society of leopold, and a camarilla segregation... he also had the rack and a hunting ground... now add to the fact that we play for fun and always embibe the spirits... well it took several scenarios for him to work out one where he could survive, all the meanwhile the other meth's complaining about him going back and forth paying and unpaying, trying to figure out who burns what with which vamp... so eventually Tariq the silent survived the chaos to destroy Leandro for the table sweep... I had a point... oh yeah... I ruled that he could do anything during his phase, it wasn'T like chess where once you take your hand off the piece it's Final...

> Pascal wrote: > Other "famous" examples: A player used Lilith's Blessing (before it was banned) and turned one of his minions to Bahari. He decided to use a coin to mark the vampire as Bahari. A while later, his predator saw 1 counter on his vampire, and assumed it was a blood counte (since nothing had been played that could have given that vampire a counter of any kind). His predator feared a Deflection would be played, and restricted his bleed. > That is (yet another) bug with Lilith's Blessing, not with any of the players involved. Any effect that grants a permanent trait must be associated with a visual reminder of some kind, because ten turns later it is impossible to remember who used Lilith or who went Anarch. If there is no card to put on the vampire, then it has to be a counter.

> Non-existant user wrote: > Tapping means the card is not usable until it untaps, > Careful. Tapped cards can be used for lots of things. This commonly turns up with lots of vampire special abilities that can be used even if the vampire is tapped or in torpor. (Obviously, card text can specify "untapped" or "ready" or whatever - but lots don't.) You don't want to fall into the trap of thinking a tapped, torporized Alexandra can't use her special to untap someone.