Govern, Ghouled, Imbued...

Can I Govern down an Imbued and modify the action with Ghouled?

An imbued is not a younger vampire. therefore you can't play govern superior on it. And even if you could (with another sort of card yet to be created) it would not be a "recruit" action and so you couldn't modify it with ghouled.

Please copy+paste the text of the cards you ask questions about. Like this: Name: Govern the Unaligned Cardtype: Action Cost: 1 blood Discipline: Dominate [dom] Bleed with +2 bleed. [DOM] +1 stealth action. Move 3 blood from the bank to a younger vampire in your uncontrolled region. Thank you. PS: Govern says "..to a younger vampire...". Imbued are not vampires. They are mortal allies. So, no.

Copying and pasting the text of cards is a lot of work when you want a simple and quick answer, I am asking a question not writing a book. I get it for obscure cards and whatnot but this was more a concept question. You will note that an answer was given before you insisted that descriptions be listed. From now on I will ask in other forums as this one seems to be... uptight. An action taken to move pool onto an uncontrolled minion in the crypt is evidently NOT a recruitment action despite the fact that by description that is exactly what you are doing with cards like Govern. If this is a living game and we expect to see other expansions in the future that do not focus primarily on vampires this might need to be clarified. As it stands, the Nights of Reckoning set is the biggest rules addendum so far and for what? A handful of minions that are all in the same group with what appears to be no future releases for it, admit it as a mistake and ban the damned things now and move on with lessons learned or get creative and build on it for better or worse. I was simply asking to see if there was some way to integrate them into what is already a solid game mechanic a little better than bringing a couple out, screwing about with convictions for 20 minutes while the rest of the table pulls up rules addendums on their phones, and then dropping gehenna events that don't affect them because of their semi-ally status. It's boring and the only other practical use for them other than generating table hate is to roll with weapons, targets, and disciplineless actions and combat cards which simply cannot stand in the face of real combat decks.

If you want quirky modified imbued, putrescent servitude makes them able to play potence(not just potence strike like craptastic ghouled) and i think it gives an extra life....... Anyway, its a really shitty card. Thats why they mentioned copy n paste, it is kinda obscure, and it does help since most people dont remember what ghouled says. Some cards are better than you assume when first reading it. Ghouled is worse than you assume when first reading it... And recruit is, as stated in the rules, an action to put an ally into play. Thus, with cards like the summoning, you could ghouled an ally not in your hand. But since even a govern to an imbued is never putting them into play, or described as recruiting, its not a recruit action.

> edminister wrote: > Copying and pasting the text of cards is a lot of work when you want a simple and quick answer, I am asking a question not writing a book. I get it for obscure cards and whatnot but this was more a concept question. You will note that an answer was given before you insisted that descriptions be listed. From now on I will ask in other forums as this one seems to be... uptight. > Sometimes the fact that someone look for the card text and copy-paste it here makes that person read the cardtext. Several times the question is answered in the cardtext. And sometimes new players chech rules post, for them is quite complicated to know all the cards. So putting the cardtext is useful for the VTES community. It's only two minutes for you but you can help other players with that.

> Brum wrote: > PS: Govern says "..to a younger vampire...". Imbued are not vampires. They are mortal allies. > So, no. > It is not so simple. There are cards that are written "vampires" but that can target Imbued, and the whole rulings section in the Imbued rules is dedicated to it. The rule of thumb is: if you can see what you are targeting, then vampire means vampire. If you cannot, then vampire means crypt card. Govern the Unaligned targets cards in your uncontrolled region, and you can look at those at any time, so vampire really means vampire in that case, and it cannot target an Imbued. EDIT: it seems that card texts online have been updated to replace all the wrong "vampire" with "uncontrolled minion" or something similar, but many of those cards have never been reprinted.

> edminister wrote: > Copying and pasting the text of cards is a lot of work when you want a simple and quick answer, I am asking a question not writing a book. > Oh yeah. I suppose your brain hurts so much you can't you the search function, and your fingers so swallowed that pressing CTRL-C is a nightmare. Or you're just rude and lazy. Be thankful some people still had the time you didn't spent to answer your question. > edminister wrote: > From now on I will ask in other forums as this one seems to be... uptight. > If you find such a forum where you can be disrespectful and still ask questions, please go there. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> edminister wrote: > As it stands, the Nights of Reckoning set is the biggest rules addendum so far and for what? A handful of minions that are all in the same group with what appears to be no future releases for it, admit it as a mistake and ban the damned things now and move on with lessons learned or get creative and build on it for better or worse. > Hi there. You may not have noticed, but this is the forum for rules questions, not the one for campaigning for bans.

> edminister wrote: > An action taken to move pool onto an uncontrolled minion in the crypt is evidently NOT a recruitment action despite the fact that by description that is exactly what you are doing with cards like Govern. If this is a living game and we expect to see other expansions in the future that do not focus primarily on vampires this might need to be clarified. > i mean, i get that's largely the end result, but an action that puts counters on cards in your crypt is just that: an action that puts counters on cards in your crypt. A recruit action is pretty specific in its scope: > the wrote: > 6.1.5. Recruit Ally (+1 stealth) > > Allies are action cards that become minions in their own right, capable of acting and blocking independently of the minion that recruits them. The recruit ally action has a default +1 stealth. > > To recruit an ally from your hand, play the card and tap the acting minion. If the action is successful, the ally is placed in your uncontrolled region, even though it is controlled, to indicate that it cannot act this turn (and the cost, if any, is paid). If the action is unsuccessful, the card is burned (see Resolve the Action, sec. 6.2.3). Only one ally card can be recruited per action. Note that allies brought into play by other means are able to act on the same turn, by default. > > At the end of the turn, any allies that were placed in your uncontrolled region (to indicate that they cannot act) are moved to your ready region. > When an ally is brought into play (by any means), he receives blood counters from the blood bank to represent his life (listed on the ally's card). When an ally loses his last life counter, he is burned. If recruiting the ally requires a Discipline and the ally is put into play by some means other than recruiting, use the normal version of the ally, if it is different than the superior. >

> edminister wrote: > Copying and pasting the text of cards is a lot of work when you want a simple and quick answer, I am asking a question not writing a book. > Then you shouldn't ask questions when you haven't even taken the time to respect the card and the game by reading it. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

Wow, three very rude responses from active and upstanding members of our community (one an admin!). Good thing that VTES has so many players that our community can afford to alienate (new?) players by calling them stupid and lazy. Check out my VTES blog: Gaming with BS I also host a google doc which separates the TWDA into clans . That means I track how often clans win, which crypt groups get used, and how many people attend events. You can access all of that info here:

> brettscho wrote: > Wow, three very rude responses from active and upstanding members of our community (one an admin!). Good thing that VTES has so many players that our community can afford to alienate (new?) players by calling them stupid and lazy. > "very rude" ? Regardless of his situation, nobody is supposed to kiss the ass of someone who is angered that rule exists.

I think he overreacted and his words were uncalled for, and I don't think the lecturing was unfair. That said, I am extremely impressed that some of us took the effort to explain the error in his understanding of the rules (game and forum) and his choice of words in a non-confrontational manner. Thank you, guys! Best I have seen in a while. Suaku Inceptor Asian Continental Championship 興っ www.youtube.com/SuakuOz

> edminister wrote: > Copying and pasting the text of cards is a lot of work when you want a simple and quick answer, I am asking a question not writing a book. I get it for obscure cards and whatnot but this was more a concept question. You will note that an answer was given before you insisted that descriptions be listed. From now on I will ask in other forums as this one seems to be... uptight. > Since this response is right after my post, I assume is in direct response to it. I respectfully advise you to ponder on the following points (no specific order: -I have seen many other communities of many other games. None are as welcoming as VtES. You might think this not true. I hope you stick around time enough to be able to see that. -Please note I started my post with "Please". That was not ironic. -Although you might think it's pompous to ask people to copy+paste the card texts during questions, besides the reason people already mentioned that forces posters to read the cards, it also helps us that answer. Many times the questions are not trivial and we need to see card text to better answer them. Might not be easy to access cart texts while at work. -You might go somewhere else to ask for help, but chances are the people there will be the same ones here. Here, you know FOR SURE that the answers are either official or reviewed by the Official Rules Director. Cheers and hope to see you here again, Tiago

Just as a sidenote: Our forums, not unlike the entire internet, has useful information mixed with opinions mixed with good ideas mixed with trolling. What sets us apart are mannerisms and style of each. You might see kevin disliking something for various points he can nitpick apart, and you WILL see ohlmann and reyda sisagreeing alot, but we dont typically do that to complete new faces or in situations without reason for it. And them theres the fact that if you need a rules question answered, this is the hands down best place. If you need a deck critiqued, this is like the third best option, imho, with the better options being having a playgroup of solid as hell playersxcheck it, or having it emailed to players who style you have alot in common with who win with similar stuff. We play a game wherexwe get really pissed in game then act like nothng bad occured after. We do arguing very well. But, unlike any other cardgame forum, and mtg boards i mean you, we help. Give a real attmpt at it, and almost always succeed. Or fail but make sure nobodies too dissapointed. We arent pompous for the sake of it, and we dont act like we arexuniversally better than the other thousands of players, also like mtg forum users. We often know the folks we address, as friemds, acquaintances, or even arch nemesies(again, reyda and ohlmann). We are a community dedicated to helping our game, and its players. All disagreements tend to stem from that shared goal. Other places are not like this, to our degree. Not saying we are better or worse, just unique.

This certainly garnered quite a few responses, the original question was asked via a cellphone so the idea of copying card text on an android was a lot of work. I do believe that I mentioned a group of people sitting at a table on their phones looking for rules clarifications later on. If there is some app I am not aware of please clue me in. Timo answered the question for all intents and purposes immediately after I asked the question, thank you Timo. Brum clarified what is expected in this forum as far as posting. I get that. I responded with a bit of detail about why I was asking and the circumstances that led to such a short and sweet question in the first place and since then... ReverendRevolver offered up other ideas and reiterated the ruling in a more concise manner, kudos. AcBishop, further clarified why cardtext in posts was important, no harm done. Boris played devil's advocate and went digging for more info, I appreciate it. Ankha, AN ADMINISTRATOR just got nasty for no apparent reason. Shameful behavior and I am glad others noted it. Jamesatzephyr than decided to jump in, completely ignoring the fact that I had indeed originally asked a question decided to rail on me for my later clarification of my actions. He also completely ignored that fact that my criticism was constructive, I did post an either/or scenario that he quoted before mentioning my genitals. Cool story bro. Self Biased kept it clean, with further clarifications based on his knowledge of the game, no harm no foul, thank you. KevinM spouted off without using any inference from my second post about how disrespectful I am of the game. I don't suppose he bothered to read Ankha's or Jaemsatzephyr's comments either or he would have done a better job of trying dish out the insults being slung. Brettscho, a childe called Ankha and others out for their caustic attitudes which I applaud, especially since... Ohlmann, a longtime poster, also mistook my second response for an unfounded criticism of the game. The1andonlime thanked many for rules and forum clarifications and claimed that it was some of the best handling of a question he had seen in some time. I truly hope he was being sarcastic because if isn't I would love to pen the next State of VEKN. (following all forum etiquette of course) Brum responded like an adult to my second post and explained himself well, his hopes to see me again in his post is the only reason I have bothered formulating another response at all. ReverendRevolver then chimed in on (I am guessing) what to expect in these forums, even naming names. While critical of my post he was still fair and honest. The bottom line, I posed a question and got an answer immediately. I appreciate it. Forum etiquette was brought up and that should have been the end of it other than healthy debate. It did not end there, your administrator decided to be asinine and prove my earlier mentioned point that the group seemed to be somewhat retentive, others decided to follow suit and drive my point home, it took a new member of the forum to call them out and that is really just sad. God help this forum if someone decided to honestly troll it. I have named names and by the looks of it by and large the forum is functional but no one should expect the types of responses I got from a certain few. Maybe my statements weren't clear and relied too heavily on inference but it is certainly no excuse. Because I am calling out an admin I expect this post to disappear pretty quickly but to those of you who do get the chance to read it and were helpful, I sincerely thank you for your time.

If you use Android look for an application named Vampidroid, you'll have all the cards there

> edminister wrote: > Ohlmann, a longtime poster, also mistook my second response for an unfounded criticism of the game. > I didn't do that. I can't bear rude people who can't understand a simple rule like "copying card texts". You should have apologized, not tried to find some reason to get angry.

Acbishop, thank you very much, I will look into it. Ohlmann, then maybe you should have stated that in your response, instead you made some statement that took some deciphering about ass kissing. What you quoted was my best interpretation of what you had been trying to say. As far as apologizing, I don't see the need especially after some of the statements made, they are hardly worth a response at all but I made one all the same and I did make sure to thank and credit those who are obviously productive members of the forum. That should suffice. For the rest of you, if you want to spout negativity feel free to click on my name and PM it instead, this forum is the public face of the VTES community and spewing vinegar publicly makes everyone look bad, especially when a bunch of new members have to remind you of this fact.

I have a rules question. Suppose that there exists person A who has a tendency to perceive any post as slightly more hostile than it actually is. Also suppose that this person knows his rights and will respond to any perceived hostility in kind. Person A gets involved in a prolonged discussion with person B, who is exactly the same as A. The way their personalities interact dictates that hostility between them increases with every new post and a discussion that started on polite terms will spiral into a flamewar. 1) Which person is in the right? 2) Can the person in the right force the other one to stop being wrong? 3) If not, is there anything else he can do to prevent a flamewar? 4) Do you believe that this post is about you? 5) Are you being insulted? 6) If yes, is this belief founded more on reality or perception? I couldn't find the relevant card text, sorry.

Someone is trolling the forum and his name is Edminister. I suggest everyone stop posting in this thread. It'll only give him reason to go on and on forever about how everyone is persecuting him. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> edminister wrote: > The1andonlime thanked many for rules and forum clarifications and claimed that it was some of the best handling of a question he had seen in some time. I truly hope he was being sarcastic because if isn't I would love to pen the next State of VEKN. (following all forum etiquette of course) > Thank you for bothering to address each response, but I think you have misunderstood what I meant. I never thanked anyone for only handling the question (as implied by your statement). I thanked some people for answering a question and explaining the fault in your choice of words in a non-confrontational manner. > That said, I am extremely impressed that some of us took the effort to explain the error in his understanding of the rules (game and forum) and his choice of words in a non-confrontational manner. Thank you, guys! Best I have seen in a while. > That is what is "Best I have seen in a while". Please realise that, while the tone used by some of us here is rather harsh, your original choice of words: > Copying and pasting the text of cards is a lot of work when you want a simple and quick answer, I am asking a question not writing a book. I get it for obscure cards and whatnot but this was more a concept question. You will note that an answer was given before you insisted that descriptions be listed. From now on I will ask in other forums as this one seems to be... uptight. > is rife with unnecessary sarcasm, and a little judgmental, when Brum was just trying to explain the forum rules on posting of game rules questions. Hope this help put thing into perspective. Suaku Inceptor Asian Continental Championship 興っ www.youtube.com/SuakuOz

Believe what you want KevinM, I am done with this.

I am closing this thread. It has strayed far from the original question. The only thing I want to add is, that everybody please be civil, be polite. This is our hobby, and supposed to be fun.

I'll only add that I'm sorry if my ironic comment about Edminister being totally unwilling to quote cardtext he's asking about has hurt anyone. Answers are 90% of the time in the cardtext, so be sure to read the latest cardtext (official source is vekn.net/images/stories/downloads/cardlist.txt). Other sources may be outdated and must not be used as reference. Quoting cardtext in a rule question should be mandatory, even with the "well-known cards". If you really can't quote cardtext (typing in a phone for instance), please make clear that you did read the cardtext and are unable to quote it. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> edminister wrote: > Can I Govern down an Imbued and modify the action with Ghouled? > Correct answer from Brum in page 1. You can't Govern down to an Imbued. Here's an extract of the Nights of Reckoning Rules addendum: Nights of Reckoning page wrote: > > In earlier sets, card effects that deal with crypt cards have generally assumed that crypt cards were all vampires. Now that this is no longer true, some questions arise. > > In general, if you (the Methuselah playing the card or activating the effect) can look at the crypt card (e.g., because it is in your uncontrolled region or in any ash heap or in play, or if you're "searching" your crypt), then the target crypt card must match the parameters given by the effect. This usually means that imbued cannot be targets of these effects. > > If you target a crypt card "blind" (either an unseen card from the crypt or an unseen card in some other Methuselah's uncontrolled region), then work with whatever you find. If the effect only checks/compares the card's "capacity", then treat the imbued's cost (starting life) as its capacity for that comparision. >