> Tracker's Mark
>
> Play when the opposing minion burns blood or life due to damage. Put this card on the opposing minion. This Salubri antitribu gets +1 intercept when attempting to block the minion with this card. If the vampire with this card is Tremere or Baali, this Salubri antitribu can enter combat with him or her as a action. The minion with this card may burn it as a +1 stealth action. A vampire can play only one Tracker's Mark each combat.
>
Mr. Wedge brought up this point in a game some time ago in which I was trying out a wall deck. I gave him a reason for "yes", but I'm not really sure.
It seems that this card could be played during the "resolve each point of damage in turn" portion of combat, VII.a. in the CRR, even if the is going to go to torpor during the "Check for vampires going to torpor" phase of combat.
Curious what others' thoughts are. Cards like Amaranth and Decapitate specify that they are only useable by vampires not going to torpor, which suggests that vampires on the way to torpor could still throw out combat cards that aren't phase specific, such as "pre's", strikes or presses. Ignore the Searing Flames is played after damage is inflicted, implying, again, that after damage is inflicted there is a window in which to play before vamps start going to torpor.
After a quick research, it appears that Tracker's mark is the only card with this propriety. It may be a loophole, but the card is so seldom played that, maybe it should stay like this ?
Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
> AaronC wrote:
> It seems that this card could be played during the "resolve each point of damage in turn" portion of combat, VII.a. in the CRR, even if the is going to go to torpor during the "Check for vampires going to torpor" phase of combat.
>
Doesn't make a whole lot of difference. You're still in combat either way, so you can play combat cards that you meet the criteria of.
For example, Street Cred is playable at the end of a round (if you meet the criteria, of course), even if you're going to torpor. And end of round is later than damage handling.
[LSJ 20080126]
>
> LSJ wrote:
> > Street Cred
> > Type: Combat
> > Requires: Potence
> > Cost: 1 blood
> > Only usable at the end of a round of combat in which this vampire
> > successfully inflicted more damage than the opposing minion.
> > [pot] Move 1 blood from the blood bank to a younger vampire in your
> > uncontrolled region. A vampire can play only 1 Street Cred each turn.
> > [POT] As above, but move 2 blood.
> >
> >
> > The text seems to indicate that you can play that card even with a
> > vampire going to torpor as there is no limitation like in the text of
> > Disarm or Taste of Vitae. Is that correct?
>
> Yes. The vampire can inspire through recklessness (foolishness?) or sacrifice, sure.
>
Interesting. The rules don't say that a vampire cannot play combat cards while in torpor. The "round ends" and "combat ends" steps of combat may happen while a vampire is in torpor, and those are windows during which the vampire in torpor could play miscellaneous combat cards.
> AaronC wrote:
> Interesting. The rules don't say that a vampire cannot play combat cards while in torpor. The "round ends" and "combat ends" steps of combat may happen while a vampire is in torpor, and those are windows during which the vampire in torpor could play miscellaneous combat cards.
>
I think the cards are not played in torpor but "on the way" to torpor. When you are effectively in torpor, the combat is allready ended and no combat cards can be played.
A minion in torpor doesn't end combat. It makes combat go to the "round ends" phase, followed by the "combat ends" phase. I highly recommend reading the Complete Rules Reference on this site. If combat was over right when a minion went to torpor, the opposing minion would have no opportunity to play Taste of Vitae. The opposing minion who plays Taste of Vitae does so during combat but while the opposing minion is in torpor.
LSJ's ruling above indicates that a vampire in torpor may play Street Cred. Street Cred isn't played "while going to torpor". It's played during the "round ends" phase of combat.
> AaronC wrote:
> A minion in torpor doesn't end combat. It makes combat go to the "round ends" phase, followed by the "combat ends" phase. I highly recommend reading the Complete Rules Reference on this site. If combat was over right when a minion went to torpor, the opposing minion would have no opportunity to play Taste of Vitae. The opposing minion who plays Taste of Vitae does so during combat but while the opposing minion is in torpor.
>
> LSJ's ruling above indicates that a vampire in torpor may play Street Cred. Street Cred isn't played "while going to torpor". It's played during the "round ends" phase of combat.
>
I disagre on your point. There clearly CAN'T be a combat with a non ready minion. And if you read LSJ ruling above it doesn't say anything about playibg street cred in torpor but "going to torpor wich is not the same. Likewise, if you read Amaranth/decapitate, nothing is said about playing it against a vampire in torpor but "going to". So IMO, no combat cards can be play in torpor.
> Timo wrote:
> I disagre on your point. There clearly CAN'T be a combat with a non ready minion. And if you read LSJ ruling above it doesn't say anything about playibg street cred in torpor but "going to torpor wich is not the same.
>
This is arguable. I can't think, off the top of my head, of anything that matters whether you model it as "in the process of going to torpor and combat is ending while doing so" or "in torpor so combat is ending". There's probably some corner case somewhere (or some whacking great obvious thing I'm overlooking).
Possibly it would matter if - for example - Fame was around. Am I already in torpor (so I've burned pool), or am I just on my way to torpor? For example, if I have 4 pool left, a Fame on my vampire, and he's going to torpor, can I spitefully play my Dark Influences (2 pool) on you before I lose the three pool to Fame? (Assume I'm in a lost position because you can obviously bleed me out if not, and so can kill myself as I choose.) Not sure.
> Timo wrote:
> Likewise, if you read Amaranth/decapitate, nothing is said about playing it against a vampire in torpor but "going to". So IMO, no combat cards can be play in torpor.
>
However, this is actually incorrect. Torpored vampires are prevented from entering combat (which obviously limits your options a lot), but there is no general prohibition on them playing combat cards. This is important for cards like Infection and Martyr's Resilience.
[LSJ 20031013]
> LSJ wrote:
> Barring explicit card text, torpored vampires cannot:
>
> 1) Take any action except "leave torpor".
> 2) Block.
> 3) Play action modifiers when another minion is acting.
> 4) Play reaction cards.
> 5) Enter combat.
> 6) Cast votes.
>
> Barring explicit card text, torpored vampires can:
>
> 1) Untap during the untap phase.
> 2) Take the "leave torpor" action.
> 3) Play action modifiers when acting.
> 4) Play combat cards that are playable by non-combatants.
> 5) Be targets of actions/effects (including damaging effects).
>
I was looking for references proving my point (that combat was necessarily ended if both combattant are no longer ready).
And I found this :
groups.google.com/forum/m/?hl=fr#!msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/46kydojRGFI/f3sD-qSKiuAJ
Proving me wrong by saying you can play taste of vitae after an amaranth (and after a decapitate). So clearly combat is not ended by an opposant being no longer ready.
And so the question stands : is it possible to play tracker's mark-like cards when allready in torpor (eg after losing 3 pool due to a fame).
Please note that LDJ list quoted above state specifically combat card playable by a non combattant.
> Timo wrote:
> And so the question stands : is it possible to play tracker's mark-like cards when allready in torpor (eg after losing 3 pool due to a fame).
>
Why do you think the Street Cred ruling isn't valid here? Burning blood due to damage is before "end of round", and since Street Cred is playable, why do you have doubts about Tracker's Mark?
Technically the question about Street Cred referred to a vampire "going to torpor", so it is not exactly the same thing.
My logic to this question is pretty simple:
Vampire A is in combat: She can play combat cards.
Vampire A is in torpor: Nothing says that she cannot play combat cards.
Vampire A is in torpor and in combat: She can play combat cards.
However, I did find this line in the rulebook:
>
> Whatever caused the combat, it is important to remember that only ready minions can participate in combat and that your minions cannot enter combat with any of your other minions.
>
The problem is that we don't have a definition for "participate". If "participate" means "play cards", then this logic falls apart. LSJ has ruled that at least some vampires in torpor can play combat cards, so it doesn't seem that "participate" means "play cards".
Since the second clause of the quoted sentence from the rulebook talks about legal targets for rush actions, I infer that "participate" here means "cannot be a target for any effect that would make it begin combat with another minion" (such as any rush action or Taunt the Caged Beast).
> AaronC wrote:
> Technically the question about Street Cred referred to a vampire "going to torpor", so it is not exactly the same thing.
>
Exactly what I wanted to point.
For the rest, I will not be sure without a clear ruling because everything we say now is basically what we think and not what we know.
Sorry - I'm changing this post.
> Timo wrote:
>
> > AaronC wrote:
> > Technically the question about Street Cred referred to a vampire "going to torpor", so it is not exactly the same thing.
> >
> Exactly what I wanted to point.
>
> For the rest, I will not be sure without a clear ruling because everything we say now is basically what we think and not what we know.
>
I am incorrect about Street Cred. Street Cred is only played at the end of a round. It can't be played by a vampire going to torpor, since at the end of the round, the vampire is already in torpor. However, LSJ's ruling seems to say that a vampire in the "going to torpor" step can also play Street Cred. "Going to torpor", which is not clearly defined IMO, seems to happen after damage resolution but before the end of the round.
The ruling still doesn't *technically* address the question of a combattant vampire in torpor playing combat cards. It's not a very careful answer, to tell the truth.
Perhaps the question is not 100% clear, but the evidence certainly weighs more heavily on the side of play-cards-while-in-torpor. I would always rather come up to my own conclusion based on evidence than to just say "I must have a ruling from someone official."
> AaronC wrote:
> Timo, if you were the rules director, how would you rule on this question and why?
>
I'm not ^^
And I could'nt be because I don't have the rule knowledge required ^^
but I will answer :
I would say you can play these cards (tracker's mark, street cred, orgy of blood...) going to torpor but not once you are there. Becaus IMO once you are in torpor you can't participate and i would say that playing cards is participating.
but still, I would have ruled that combat cards can't be played at all by minion not ready (and if you want some cards which can do it, you write it on them, not the other way)
> AaronC wrote:
> I am incorrect about Street Cred. Street Cred is only played at the end of a round. It can't be played by a vampire going to torpor, since at the end of the round, the vampire is already in torpor. The person asking the question in that case made an error that LSJ did not point out.
>
And what made you change your mind ?
> Timo wrote:
>
> > AaronC wrote:
> > I am incorrect about Street Cred. Street Cred is only played at the end of a round. It can't be played by a vampire going to torpor, since at the end of the round, the vampire is already in torpor. The person asking the question in that case made an error that LSJ did not point out.
> >
> And what made you change your mind ?
>
I realized that I was missing a point from that ruling. The point is that Street Cred's text specifically says to play it during the end of the round, and LSJ contradicted the explicit text with his ruling.
I don't think he meant to contradict the text, but he did. Personally I don't think he had a clear concept as to the timing difference of "going to torpor" and "the end of a round".
The *intention* of the ruling certainly seems to be that vampires in torpor can play combat cards.
His ruling that non-combattant vampires in torpor can play combat cards pretty definitely means that he thought "playing cards" in combat was not the same as "participating" in combat (although let's face it: I doubt he was thinking about that line in the rulebook when he wrote that ruling.)
It would be legitimate to rule that "participating" in combat includes "playing cards" in combat, but unfortunately the word "participate" currently has no definition in the game.
Correct answer from jamesatzephyr above (page 1).
However, this one (when exactly does a vampire to whom agg damage is dealt enter torpor/burn?) is on my side for review - with, potentially, reversals of previous rulings.
There is an assumption, I have had for many years, which is "a vampire in torpor can not be in combat". From this I get "combats ends when one combatant goes to torpor" or "going to torpor,(triggers) end of round and end of combat, (i.e.) have the same timing".