A Layout Change

In one of the other threads, I was thinking of a logo to help identify Independent, Sabbat, Camarilla and Laibon vampires from each other. It may also allow you to create icons for things such as Black Hand and Anarchs which could also be printed on cards in similar location. So, here are some of the ideas I'm running with. For Sabbat: For Camarilla: For Independents: For Black Hand: For examples of the layout change: Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

uhhhhh Is the word "Camarilla" not enough?? I don't understand the need to reduce the game down to all symbols. this isn't Heroclix. Even that other game that no one wants us to be as successful as uses lots and lots of keywords. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

I'd be thinking maybe we'd do away with the "bold text" on vampires and make it symbolic. It was a thought. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

I don't mind thoughts, but you're not explaining your thoughts. Care to? Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

I'd rather not have more symbols. Too many things going on as it is. Trying to explain the different symbols in the game is already a hassle as it is. I'd actually rather lose the cardtype symbols (e.g. ) and have them as text instead. Suaku Inceptor Asian Continental Championship 興っ www.youtube.com/SuakuOz

I'd rather move sect symbols under clan icon, like the one in my attachment. I don't think that removing anarch or black hand is a big deal, i'd rather not to. Also, can we remove that stupid green strip? About attached file, textbox would show only if something is in it. grey circles are clan icon, sect icon and expansion icon (on the other side). Yes, in some cases discipline icons can be on image, i don't think it's big deal - i'd rather have it this way than going green strip. Yes, textbox is semi-opaque and also on vampire image, ditto not a big deal. EDIT: If we are talking about replacing text with icon - first thing that comes to mind is damage/aggravated damage, second is blood/pool. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

It could be useful for vampires who do not share the default affiliation of their clan, like the couple of Sabbat or Camarilla Followers of Set. Those ones are easy to miss because they are too scarce to build a deck around. I don't think Black Hand is needed since it is closely linked to Sabbat.

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > It may also allow you to create icons for things such as Black Hand and Anarchs which could also be printed on cards in similar location > Assuming current design holds, the only vampire who's natively Anarch is Anarch Convert. Everyone else has to become it, or gets it when merged. An icon for one vampire would be somewhat overkill.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > > It may also allow you to create icons for things such as Black Hand and Anarchs which could also be printed on cards in similar location > > > Assuming current design holds, the only vampire who's natively Anarch is Anarch Convert. Everyone else has to become it, or gets it when merged. An icon for one vampire would be somewhat overkill. > There's Jack Drake too.

> Pascal wrote: > > > jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > > > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > > > It may also allow you to create icons for things such as Black Hand and Anarchs which could also be printed on cards in similar location > > > > > > > > Assuming current design holds, the only vampire who's natively Anarch is Anarch Convert. Everyone else has to become it, or gets it when merged. An icon for one vampire would be somewhat overkill. > > > There's Jack Drake too. > Also merged Dominique and Jeremy MacNeil. Which would be a problem for the icon suggestion. But it's much easier to read a word than it is to remember what each icon stands for, and there's already too many icons and symbols in the game.

> Mael wrote: > But it's much easier to read a word than it is to remember what each icon stands for, and there's already too many icons and symbols in the game. > Yes, having to translate between increasingly obscure symbols to a word you can say out loud to a game benefit or rule is definitely a problem that V:TES has faced. Increasing that problem isn't likely to be a good thing, if people are hoping to pick up new players.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > Mael wrote: > > But it's much easier to read a word than it is to remember what each icon stands for, and there's already too many icons and symbols in the game. > > > Yes, having to translate between increasingly obscure symbols to a word you can say out loud to a game benefit or rule is definitely a problem that V:TES has faced. Increasing that problem isn't likely to be a good thing, if people are hoping to pick up new players. > Yeah, it's so difficult to remember all FOUR (4) sects. Lets get rid of clan icons, too .... Wait, it's easier to check sect or clan just looking at icon/background than reading small obscure bold text. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

Next are specific icons for inherent +1 bleed, +1 strength and for each titles... Honestly card text is clear enough, and, IMO, cards do not need to be clogged with more arabesques.

> Lech wrote: > Yeah, it's so difficult to remember all FOUR (4) sects. Lets get rid of clan icons, too .... > As a new player, you're not faced with the incremental change of learning four new icons. You're faced with a blizzard of icons for everything from card type to clan to discipline/virtue. This is already a steep learning curve, and has often been a criticism made of V:TES. (The WW layout change made things a little better, in that you could more easily see some of the more intricate discipline icons rather than squinting. When they first came out, I was forever mistaking Mytherceria for Obeah and vice-versa.) There's a similar issue with keywords generally, and it's an issue lots of CCGs face. New players looking at a card often can't know what it does. This is one area where Magic (for example) has made some forward strides - though it's taken some steps backwards too. Making the game more obscure is a step backwards for newbies, especially when the symbols themselves aren't terribly obvious unless you come from the WoD (and not all players do). Like, you can sort of remember why a gun = equipment, although that can confuse people too, with cards that look for guns. But why is an upside down, funny cross Camarilla? Why is a book independent? Disciplines, it makes some in-game sense. They're often requirements on a lot of cards and - especially when you have multiple levels and multiple disciplines - having a visual shortcut makes a lot of sense. It's annoying, but having to write "Superior Mytherceria + Superior Obtenebration" on a dual-discipline card would probably be lots worse. But since we very rarely have cards that are like: [potence] Some thing. [potence] + [sabbat] Some other thing. [potence] + [blackhand] Some other, other thing. There's not so much of a pressing need on library cards. If there's a hypothetical crypt card out there that is so full of text that it needs to drop the word "Laibon" or "Independent" to fit the text in alongside a long-winded special ability, and there's no way to shorten it and it's the best thing since bacon was invented, I'd rather break the design rules for that one card and make the text box a line bigger. Teeny tiny text on crypt cards is super annoying.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > As a new player, you're not faced with the incremental change of learning four new icons. You're faced with a blizzard of icons for everything from card type to clan to discipline/virtue. This is already a steep learning curve, and has often been a criticism made of V:TES. > On the other hand, each and every new game you are learning consists of lots of symbols. Just take a look at the newer LCGs. Board games, too, tend to have lots of symbols and icons on cards, and nobody objects. I think new players are not intimidated by the number of icons/symbols in VTES, but by the sheer number of cards available and the endless possibilities they enable. Clearer Layout, with less words for things that are "standard" is a good thing. pckvtes.wordpress.com

Im up in the air on this issue, but i would like it if "vanilla" vamps (having no special text) simply had sect affiliation and no "text box" obzcuring art. On a similar note, ive suggested alternate art versions of some vamps for promos or prizes. Alt art with no text box and just text on the art could be neat.

> Amenophobis wrote: > I think new players are not intimidated by the number of icons/symbols in VTES, but by the sheer number of cards available and the endless possibilities they enable. > No, seriously, V:TES has received tons of criticism over the years for its massive learning curve just to understand what a card does, what a blob means, what a keyword means. Not to memorize every card possibility in the game, just to understand what the card right in front of you means. We are where we are, but sticking our heads in the sand and making the game more obscure does nothing to help that. See, for example, the (usually very helpful) step forward that was taken when cards name-check a symbol and display it, so you can symbol match. When players pick up old cards talking about Independent vampires (say, Reckless Agitation) and have no idea if that means Book, Upside Cross, or Spiky Haribo, that's a step backwards.

Who said anything about removing the sect from the text? If anything, it is rather the clan name that should be added (but we might have space issue with Toreador Antitribu...) That being said, icons are more readable from afar or when looking at a card upside down or sideways. And that is a quite common situation in game with all the +1 stuff against X sect. Rather than abstract icons, one could just use some fancy S, C, L and I. And once again, I would only use them on vampires that diverge from their clan's default, so that the very fact that there is an extra icon catches the eye.

> Non-existant user wrote: > Who said anything about removing the sect from the text? > vekn.net/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/50894-a-layout-change#50898 > > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > I'd be thinking maybe we'd do away with the "bold text" on vampires and make it symbolic. >

> Mael wrote: > But it's much easier to read a word than it is to remember what each icon stands for, and there's already too many icons and symbols in the game. > But it is also easier to match to icons together: Look this library card has and this vamp also has — she can use the card. It's also part of the reason the cards have artwork (so they're easily identified). If more icons were to be added, you would still keep the text. Is the problem the shear number of potential icons? + Bleed + Stealth + Intercept + Strength + Votes Anarch Advanced Aggravated Black Hand Flight * Sterile Scarce Infernal Seraph Red List Archbishop Bishop Cardinal Inner Circle Justicar Magaji Primogen Prince Priscus Regent Ally Imbued Independent Camarilla Sabbat Laibon And that would add to: 30 Discipline Symbols (60 if Inf + sup) 7 Virtues 7 Creeds 39? clans Tariq advanced may be the noisiest vamp with 4 icons: Sabbat, Red List, Black Hand, Independent But inner circles would have 3: Sect, Title, +bleed All in all a lot of noise, but it doesn't look too bad: Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook

I really like this idea, but i'd be surprised to see it get much traction as there's a number of hurdles to jump. i remember all of the criticism my idea to just move all the keywords to the bold text part of the card. the biggest one in my mind is deciding which keywords (or concepts) deserve to have a symbol? I know slippery slope arguments are dumb, but where do you draw the line? also, introducing symbols instead of actual words means more back-end legwork designing a symbol for a new concept, and you have to tell your playerbase what this new symbol means and possibly errata old cards. if we examine how common some of these keywords are, we'd get a good idea at just how useful they'd be. I'd advocate for moving to icon based Sect. I'd also advocate for truncating how Justicar and Inner Circle are printed on the cards. We know that they're unique clan titles and will contest because of the rulebook. the others? eh, not so much. I don't think much real estate will be salvaged by moving the other keywords to icons because most of them are uncommon at best.

> Ke. wrote: > > Tariq advanced may be the noisiest vamp with 4 icons: > > Sabbat, Red List, Black Hand, Independent > > All in all a lot of noise, but it doesn't look too bad: > Advanced Tariq is Sabbat, Black Hand, and Red list. Merged Tariq is only independent. to me, this illustrates why making all the keywords icons can lead to messy situations. > Ke. wrote: > But inner circles would have 3: > > Sect, Title, +bleed > with the +bleed, how would you handle +3 bleed? or -1 bleed?

> self wrote: > with the +bleed, how would you handle +3 bleed? or -1 bleed? > Card text. The + Bleed icon would only indicate that the vampire bleeds for more than one. As I said, if such icons were to be introduced then they would supplement the card text — not necessarily replace it. Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook

> self wrote: > Advanced Tariq is Sabbat, Black Hand, and Red list. Merged Tariq is only independent. to me, this illustrates why making all the keywords icons can lead to messy situations. > Actually, merged Tariq is Independent, Black Hand Red List. But your point stands. Suaku Inceptor Asian Continental Championship 興っ www.youtube.com/SuakuOz

> Ke. wrote: > > > self wrote: > > with the +bleed, how would you handle +3 bleed? or -1 bleed? > > > Card text. The + Bleed icon would only indicate that the vampire bleeds for more than one. > > As I said, if such icons were to be introduced then they would supplement the card text — not necessarily replace it. > I think that moving all the keywords to the front and bold them, that would work towards accomplishing both goals. it bugs me that there are two different spots to look for keywords. > the1andonlime wrote: > > > self wrote: > > Advanced Tariq is Sabbat, Black Hand, and Red list. Merged Tariq is only independent. to me, this illustrates why making all the keywords icons can lead to messy situations. > > > Actually, merged Tariq is Independent, Black Hand Red List. > > But your point stands. > is this yet another thing i've continuously misread over the years? the way i've read it was that the whole 'bold line' overrides any previous bold line.

I think all card text should be italicized. Also, we could put a giant steel grey banner along the bottom of each card to use up all that extra real estate.

> self wrote: > is this yet another thing i've continuously misread over the years? the way i've read it was that the whole 'bold line' overrides any previous bold line. > The merged line indicate he is independant once merged. And still Black hand, because the advanced is black hand and black hand is not tied to being sabbat.

Vampires who change sect aren't problematic, just put default sect where sect icon is. Then put changed sect in the damn textbox. Easy ? Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Lech wrote: > Vampires who change sect aren't problematic, just put default sect where sect icon is. Then put changed sect in the damn textbox. Easy ? > Changed sect as text, or changed sect as icon? Note also that some of this might require a rules change to merging. Currently "the text on the base card still applies, but the rest of the card is ignored". Some icons might be inherited (e.g. black hand), some might not (e.g. clan). Also consider layout with regards merging. If you want to see card text of the base vampire at the moment, it's pretty easy to just lay the two cards with the text box sticking out. If you need to see the textbox, the icons above it and the Black Hand icon in the sort-of top left from the underlying vampire, you also start showing off the clan and disciplines (which might have changed). e.g. consider a vampire whose base vampire was "Sabbat. Black Hand." Advanced is just "Sabbat". Merged is Black Hand again. (Would be currently, the card text would be inherited.) And you also want to see the +1 intercept blob above the text box. And their clan has changed from Gangrel Antitribu to Ahrimane.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > Lech wrote: > > Vampires who change sect aren't problematic, just put default sect where sect icon is. Then put changed sect in the damn textbox. Easy ? > > > Changed sect as text, or changed sect as icon? > > Note also that some of this might require a rules change to merging. Currently "the text on the base card still applies, but the rest of the card is ignored". Some icons might be inherited (e.g. black hand), some might not (e.g. clan). > > Also consider layout with regards merging. If you want to see card text of the base vampire at the moment, it's pretty easy to just lay the two cards with the text box sticking out. If you need to see the textbox, the icons above it and the Black Hand icon in the sort-of top left from the underlying vampire, you also start showing off the clan and disciplines (which might have changed). > > e.g. consider a vampire whose base vampire was "Sabbat. Black Hand." Advanced is just "Sabbat". Merged is Black Hand again. (Would be currently, the card text would be inherited.) And you also want to see the +1 intercept blob above the text box. And their clan has changed from Gangrel Antitribu to Ahrimane. > I don't think black hand need their own icon, nor anarchs, so this problem don't exist in my version. About merging, sect icon would be below current clan icon. Merge text would be in textbox (merge symbol, changed sect as icon - if any, otherwise no sect icon in text box, rest of merge text). In this thread i didn't said anything about icons for bleed, str, intercept or any non-sect, non-damage icon. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> KevinM wrote: > I don't understand the need to reduce the game down to all symbols. this isn't Heroclix. > I totally agree with this. This game has enough icons. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Lech wrote: > I don't think black hand need their own icon, nor anarchs, so this problem don't exist in my version. > agreed. not all keywords are created equal.

> self wrote: > agreed. not all keywords are created equal. > Please, for the love of god, will you quit with the oh-so-not-at-all-cute, make your posts italic and shove a whacking great grey block after them thing?

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > Please, for the love of god, will you quit with the oh-so-not-at-all-cute, make your posts italic and shove a whacking great grey block after them thing? > nobody annoyed you back on usenet when you had your long and useless PGP key, pal... I wonder how you can be offended by italics. Come on, is it hurting your eyes so badly ? And yes, I too think the game has enough icons, and some traits / titles are really better with bold text instead of icons, which should be clans or disciplines, since it's like this from the beginning. (except of course for flight and stryga/maleficia which are undisciplined disciplines ) Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> Reyda wrote: > And yes, I too think the game has enough icons, and some traits / titles are really better with bold text instead of icons, which should be clans or disciplines, since it's like this from the beginning. (except of course for flight and stryga/maleficia which are undisciplined disciplines ) > I don't think moving a vampire's Sect to an icon is unreasonable. we've got that green bar as a dedicated space for abilities and requirements after all, and removing Sect would save a lot of space in the text box.

> self wrote: > I don't think moving a vampire's Sect to an icon is unreasonable. we've got that green bar as a dedicated space for abilities and requirements after all, and removing Sect would save a lot of space in the text box. > Unnecessary layout changes add to the confusion of the game. Having cards with text and others with icon doesn't help at all. I got players confused by a G2/3 Tsimisce deck using old and new layout crypt. They didn't play an Asanbonsam Ghoul until they had a G3 vampire with matching clan symbol in play. And "Sabbat" eating "a lot of space" is a bit over the top. Honestly? -alf <INSERT CLEVER QUOTATION HERE>

> Reyda wrote: > I wonder how you can be offended by italics. > Italics are deliberately harder to read than normal fonts. That's why they're used - you have to slow down for them. (If they were easier to read, every newspaper would be printed with them.) Presumably, self biased wants to make his posts more unpleasant for people to read than necessary. See also: we dont make every letter individually coloured, even though it would be totally cute and OMG my posts are so awesome now. Additionally, italics are used here to indicate quotes, not original text!

> alf wrote: > Unnecessary layout changes add to the confusion of the game. > Having cards with text and others with icon doesn't help at all. > I got players confused by a G2/3 Tsimisce deck using old and new layout crypt. > They didn't play an Asanbonsam Ghoul until they had a G3 vampire with matching clan symbol in play. > > And "Sabbat" eating "a lot of space" is a bit over the top. Honestly? > > -alf > This is the main issue: a redesign adds a new format which leads to confusion. Unless the benefits outweigh that very substantial cost - oh, and incidentally, LOOK: a proper use of italics! - then it doesn't make sense to introduce format changes. I don't see any benefits to the proposed changes whatsoever.

Also, remember that we should keep open the possibility that we might have to print our own cards from the new sets if the POD doesn't go. I pray to the gods POD starts as soon as possible, but it might not. Italics is harder to read, depending on the quality of the printer.

> Brum wrote: > Also, remember that we should keep open the possibility that we might have to print our own cards from the new sets if the POD doesn't go. I pray to the gods POD starts as soon as possible, but it might not. > > Italics is harder to read, depending on the quality of the printer. > Print-yer-own is one of the reasons I'd much prefer to make the text box a little bigger in the situations where it's needed, rather than trying to shave microns off the space used by replacing the word "Sabbat" with a spiky haribo. The shiny colour printer at work is awesome, but my inkjet at home is... not. This can be particularly acute with crypt cards where, often, I don't want to pick them up to read them, because it's got 9 blood counters sat on it, and jostling things is annoying.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > See also: we dont make every letter individually coloured, even though it would be totally cute and OMG my posts are so awesome now. > And you spent ten minutes of your precious life to do this. How cute. May I suggest you go outside and enjoy life instead ? Being happy is good for your health, said a very intelligent & educated guy. "J'ai décidé d'être heureux, parce que c'est bon pour la santé" - Voltaire Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> Reyda wrote: > And you spent ten minutes of your precious life to do this. How cute. > May I suggest you go outside and enjoy life instead ? Being happy is good for your health, said a very intelligent & educated guy. > I don't know, I do find fulfillment and happiness in explaining my opinion. Apparently, as do you, considering the very fact you explained why you were not bothered by Self biased

there is nothing i despise more on the internet than cyber bullying. that's about the only explanation i would provide. Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> Reyda wrote: > there is nothing i despise more on the internet than cyber bullying. that's about the only explanation i would provide. > But you DO respect the fact that someone uses as their standard font the font which is typically used here to quote card text, thereby causing problems? Personally, I could care less about his large silver symbol, which causes problems reading his posts, because he obviously doesn't wish me to read his posts. But to subvert the standards typically used on this forum is a bit rude, and it's COMPLETELY stubborn of him not to stop using italics as his main font. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> KevinM wrote: > But you DO respect the fact that someone uses as their standard font the font which is typically used here to quote card text, thereby causing problems? > Causing problems ? Do you want me to give an overly sarcastic answer ? Sincerely ask yourself what kind of problem is caused by a standard, easy to read font, that is simply put in italic. Is it the end of the world ? Does it deserve hateful messages ? > KevinM wrote: > But to subvert the standards typically used on this forum is a bit rude, and it's COMPLETELY stubborn of him not to stop using italics as his main font. > Stubborn you say ? Maybe it's because this nonsens is so trivial, there would be no point in trying to conform for the sake of conforming. Not everyone reasons like you or me... Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> Reyda wrote: > Causing problems ? > Do you want me to give an overly sarcastic answer ? > Sincerely ask yourself what kind of problem is caused by a standard, easy to read font, that is simply put in italic. Is it the end of the world ? Does it deserve hateful messages ? > I am with you man. When someone say something cause him trouble, we should alway assume he is a lying bastard exagerating for his own profit. I would even say we should require several scientific studies to see whether or not this is troublesome ; on the other hand, if anybody on earth ain't bothered, he is representative for the entire world. I can't find the good word to describe this king of attitude. I vaguely recall it have something to do with cattle. Bull something, maybe.

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > Reyda wrote: > > Causing problems ? > > Do you want me to give an overly sarcastic answer ? > > Sincerely ask yourself what kind of problem is caused by a standard, easy to read font, that is simply put in italic. Is it the end of the world ? Does it deserve hateful messages ? > > > I am with you man. When someone say something cause him trouble, we should alway assume he is a lying bastard exagerating for his own profit. I would even say we should require several scientific studies to see whether or not this is troublesome ; on the other hand, if anybody on earth ain't bothered, he is representative for the entire world. > > I can't find the good word to describe this king of attitude. I vaguely recall it have something to do with cattle. Bull something, maybe. > Reyda and Ohlmann are once again at odds. All is right with the internet....

> Reyda wrote: > Maybe it's because this nonsens is so trivial, there would be no point in trying to conform for the sake of conforming. Not everyone reasons like you or me... > I think you're over reacting. Nobody is bullying anybody. Self biased chooses to express his individuality in a way that causes inconvenience to readers, intentionally or not. Maybe that could have been pointed out more gently. Then again, maybe that would have come across as condescending. It's a balancing act, as I'm sure you agree. Anyway, writing in italics is not the end of the world. Nobody suggested that it is. It's still annoying as hell and a terrible way to fight conformity. Sort of like having bad personal hygiene or swearing at nuns.

> Suoli wrote: > Maybe that could have been pointed out more gently. > It had been. vekn.net/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/50894-a-layout-change?limit=10&start=20#50953

> Ohlmann wrote: > I can't find the good word to describe this king of attitude. I vaguely recall it have something to do with cattle. Bull something, maybe. > j'te chie dans la bouche mec... Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> elf biased chooses to express his individuality in a way that causes inconvenience to readers, intentionally or not. > I think this capture the core of the problem. Expression is not always pleasing to the eyes, but hey, we ain't same everyone and our views differ. This isn't a scientific journal where being clear is way above flair and peers review everything before anything gets printed. In an open format it is common to see some deviations and if someone rates flair above being clearly understandable, let it be. Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.

Well, I suspect he prefer the flair because not too many people are inconvenienced. In this regard, people saying that they don't like that are useful if only to know whether he inconvenience half of the forum or two weirdos (that being said, what were we talking of already before we go off track ? baby's clothing ?)

> Ohlmann wrote: > Well, I suspect he prefer the flair because not too many people are inconvenienced. In this regard, people saying that they don't like that are useful if only to know whether he inconvenience half of the forum or two weirdos > > (that being said, what were we talking of already before we go off track ? baby's clothing ?) > I think it was either icons or Nikons..... . Or judging by the thread title, were we debating going back to the jyhad layout?

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > were we debating going back to the jyhad layout? > Having worked as a professional graphic designer for many years, i must say i honestly much prefer the Sabbat & Bloodline-edition layout to the later versions. Even the 'green' color of the Master cards was much classier IMO, and the backgrounds for the Antitribu-clans were much more clear to distinguish. The later !Tor backgrounds are just too similar to the original Toreador backgrounds, and the Malkavians really deserve the pre-Camarilla tiles. i also much prefer the grey BL-Action Modifiers to the brownish LoB-mods. the Jyhad-versions were mostly dull to my eyes. just my 0.002cts

Really, malks and gangrel shouldve gotten less bright veraions of jyhad backgrounds, for the sake of looking better. The gangrel modern frame isnt green enough. The sw and bl layout is ok except for the tinyness of some symbols, but i may be imaging that..... BUT I prefer modern layout for action mods, being the muddyish color. I think combo cards should be more of a goldy brown. All the warhammer hobbyists who have used brown and copper/gold paint and cleaned your bruah in the same water know at least vaguely what i mean....... But to give garfeild credit for jyhad, the brujah layout is very modern gothic punk like the brujah were in the wod.