Here's my current CEL POT combat iteration. I hope the list is readable.
My game plan goes as follows : Defend against your predator in a suitably violent fashion so that you don't take any damage which would be completely unacceptable, bloat with Villein/LB/Taste so that you can gather a good number of minions, don't hit your prey full-force early on because you need to conserve your resources, instead bleed him whenever you have time. Enter late game where, hopefully, table resources have gone down and then proceed with ousting mode. Decks that block and fight even bleeds of one are going to be a problem, also decks that bloat with every action or bring out allies aren't acceptable but instead must die. In any event you must conserve your resources as much as possible, because there aren't good permanents in the deck.
There's also some lunge capacity with 9 Public Trusts, that has felt like a good number and ousting hasn't been a problem as such. There are, of course, a bunch of fighty decks here and I have had so much fun with the likes of setrange/taste of death, gargoyle combat and so on, people fighting back isn't fair Anyway I consider going to some tournaments with this, since ruining some TWDA clone deck's day is so much fun.
The first minion to come out depends a lot on if I draw rush cards. Then if I don't and don't have Jacques Molay in my opening crypt I'm likely screwed. I'd like to try a different crypt with Theo Bell and Beast (3 and 3, then G2 !Brujah) and a little different celerity module, with a few celerity masters that could maybe work with LB, then I would have two rush minions that are smaller and better than Jacques Molay. And I could also trow in Jeremy McNeil, he also has rush... But anyway, having predictable sup. cel is also fine.
Crypt : 12
4x Jacques Molay, 9 cap, CEL POT PRE +1 Strenght, rush younger
1x Jack Drake, 8 Cap, CEL POT pre +1 Strenght
1x Count Germaine, 8 cap, CEL POT PRE, rush toreador immune to weapons
1x DeSalle, 7 cap, CEL POT PRE, +1 Stealth something
1x Urraca, 7 cap, CEL POT pre, Bishop, +bleed /w edge
1x Tomaine, 6 cap, CEL POT PRE, Primogen, +handsize for sabbat prey
1x Jeremiah Noble, 6 cap, CEL POT pre
1x Henry Taylor, 6 cap, POT cel pre, combat card recursion
1x Pug Jackson, 6 cap, Primogen, CEL POT pre
Library : 90
Master : 15 (I find that more won't work with LB in a CEL POT combat deck, so no Dreams, no Pentex... No matter though, I find the additional pool is easily worth it)
8x Villein
3x Lilith's Blessing
1x Giant's Blood
2x Fame
1x Monster
Action : 21 (necessary to have ousting resources and rush cards)
9x Public Trust
6x Bum's Rush
4x Harass
2x Rumble (4 Camarilla minions, can't really have more of these)
Combat : 54 (If Henry Taylor had sup. celerity I'd use more copies of him since conserving combat resources is so important. Luckily a few guys have +strenght though and also CEL POT deals high damage with just a few cards.)
12x Torn Signpost
10x Immortal Grapple
4x Thrown Sewer Lid
8x Taste of Vitae
3x Sideslip (I don't want to be entirely stuck with some aggro-pokey thing)
3x Burning Wrath (you ain't Golcondaing that minion son. Also I don't want to be stuck on some stupid 'friggin Tremere ghost forever.)
8x Pursuit
6x Blur
You need to run couple of Infernal Pursuits and Dreams of the Sphinx. Yes, I know you said that you won't be able to add more masters than 15, but in this kind of deck DotS is a must. To have two of them, remove one Villein and one Monster.
A copy of Armor of Caine's Fury for, you know, Terror Frenzy or suspected Röthshreck?
----
Banging trashcans, breaking windows
We'll wake you up tonight
We like the good time, we scream and shout
And that's what fun's about
> Demnogonis wrote:
> Here's my current CEL POT combat iteration. I hope the list is readable.
>
> (If Henry Taylor had sup. celerity I'd use more copies of him since conserving combat resources is so important. Luckily a few guys have +strenght though and also CEL POT deals high damage with just a few cards.)
>
You play 3 Liliths blessings. If you really like Henrys recursion ability it´s not impossible to throw in 1 celerity discipline card and increase the amount of Henrys and if you dont draw the Henrys you can always play the skill card on someone elses minion.
Not saying it´s a given, but since you commented on his ability and the liliths are already in the deck you might want to give it a thought.
> Demnogonis wrote:
> There's also some lunge capacity with 9 Public Trusts, that has felt like a good number and ousting hasn't been a problem as such.
>
Have you tried Codex of the Edenic Groundskeepers?
> There are, of course, a bunch of fighty decks here and I have had so much fun with the likes of setrange/taste of death, gargoyle combat and so on, people fighting back isn't fair
>
The quick card cycling of a rush deck is perfect for Lilith's Blessing but I wonder if rushing at 3 blood is too much of a drawback?
With no fortitude, I think it could be worth playing some Stutter-step and Stunt Cycles (great against animalism decks).
I prefer Weighted Walking Stick + Psyche! to Torn signpost + Immortal Grapple because you'll need to play less of them (only when required). I'll keep 2 torn Signpost though.
I always play 2 Haven Uncovered in that kind of deck, for the stealth and multi rush it provides
And you must absolutely play Resist Earht's Grasp for its flexibility. Bleeding for 3 with a Public Trust works great at 1 stealth.
I would adjust the proportion: you'll need more Taste (it cycles easily) and more rushes, even though Molay has an integrated rush, and less Blur (costs 1 blood, and 1 blood is a lot in a late game when you have 1 blood and get hit for 1 too)
And I would drop Henry Taylor since he doesn't have CEL (and you don't play Giotto )
I like very much the deck anyway.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Pretty cool deck. But get rid of the Blurs, swap them all for Pursuits, Blur is a weak card to start with and with your POT and +1 strength guys, hitting people twice for 4 should put almost all targets down, and anyone who is still up you can press with the grapple and hit them again.
Because card flow is so crucial in this deck, I would try and make room for a Dreams, Elder Library or Barrens.
@ Exposer : The original version had 6x Sudden Reversal, but that didn't work out very well... Not sure what to do with SH though. It only protects one minion so I don't know if it's a good idea to have a specific counter to that. I don't remember a lot of the cards anymore so they don't occur to me...
@ Jussi : My experiences are pretty different, I find that I don't need to and don't want to cycle much. Could have a Heart of Cheating in maybe, I have a spare copy. Don't fear frenzy cards much, for TF I have sever lids, for Rötschreck, well, that's not that common anymore. I don't have as much experience playing !Brujah as you however, maybe I need to playtest this deck a lot more. Say, do you often run out of deck with all that cycling business?
@ Tomas : Yeah, throwing in the CEL discipline isn't that much of a problem. Maybe I could try replacing some of the minions with more Henry's and see how it goes, it would mean there's a lot more duplicates in the crypt though, and I have noticed it's easy to get out more guys when you have LB in play.
@ Suoli : Yes, in fact I took the Codex out after some games, I felt the action to equip it is wasteful and it's unpredictable if it deals any more damage than just another bleed card. I could as well be using Heart of the City (which I don't have). I find that rushing at 3 blood is pretty much perfect, obviously not against everything but generally. Have to have space for taste
@ Ankha : I had a !Gangrel rush deck with that kind of a combat module, and all I can say is, well, I'm pretty happy with Torn Signpost / Immortal Grapple. The thing with Stunt Cycle vs. Thrown Sever Lid is that SC doesn't deal damage to roughly 1/3 of the vampires in the game. Animalism decks could be pain, but then again they usually don't prevent a lot. Haven had to be left out which sucks, but can't have everything... Resist is good but the thing is I haven't really seen the limitations of the combat module, instead it has consistently worked as I want. Maybe there could be more taste, then there would be less of something else though... Who's Giotto, isn't that some Baali?
@ Dasein : Yeah, Blur isn't as good as Pursuit, but it feels so powerful with those + strenght guys and TS, and it deals pretty good damage on it's own. Dunno about that really, side strikes and such would also be good... The thing with Blur is that since my goal isn't to cycle a lot, I can just grapple / blur somebody with Jaques and play TS with somebody else.
Thanks for your input, off to playing now.
Well, I do run 6 Ashurs in my deck, and it has 20+ masters anyway, so I need to be extra careful playing it. It does have tendency to run out of cards anyway, though. The deck has Richter + Jacko as superstars.
I was more or less thinking, that you need to get rid of extra Villeins, LBs and just to fix your hand when necessary. Since you can play Infernal Pursuit any time during combat, it can just cycle one card out or in case of emergency, you can cycle enough cards to face almost any opponent.
For Ankha as well: I do find Ankha's note of Sticks and Psyches very intriguing. I consider IG as defensive card as well: when you face Ivory Bow, Theft of Vitae, Breath of the Dragon, guns etc. Finnish meta is full of different vionlence
----
Banging trashcans, breaking windows
We'll wake you up tonight
We like the good time, we scream and shout
And that's what fun's about
> Demnogonis wrote:
> @ Ankha : I had a !Gangrel rush deck with that kind of a combat module, and all I can say is, well, I'm pretty happy with Torn Signpost / Immortal Grapple. The thing with Stunt Cycle vs. Thrown Sever Lid is that SC doesn't deal damage to roughly 1/3 of the vampires in the game. Animalism decks could be pain, but then again they usually don't prevent a lot. Haven had to be left out which sucks, but can't have everything... Resist is good but the thing is I haven't really seen the limitations of the combat module, instead it has consistently worked as I want. Maybe there could be more taste, then there would be less of something else though... Who's Giotto, isn't that some Baali?
>
Well, it's a matter of taste and meta. I'll explain below why I prefer WWS+Psyche! I prefer to be defensive if the combat goes long range (because the deck is supposed to fight at close range), and the damage prevention of the Stunt Cycle is great. If it can do some damage also, it's perfect. Rather than being aggressive also at long range and getting my vampire torporized. Adding Resist Earth's Grasp has nothing to do with the combat module (though it is very polyvalent), but has to do with the very useful stealth it can provide on a rush or bleed. - It was a joke, relative to the deck I posted with Henry Taylor and Giotto as stars www.vekn.net/index.php/forum/7-deck-clinic/5167-doomed-henry-infinite-loop
>
> Jussi wrote:
> For Ankha as well: I do find Ankha's note of Sticks and Psyches very intriguing. I consider IG as defensive card as well: when you face Ivory Bow, Theft of Vitae, Breath of the Dragon, guns etc. Finnish meta is full of different vionlence
>
I was considering the card slot more than its effects in combat.
WWS+Pyche! uses less cards and is more efficient against combat ends because 1/ the WWS can survive multiple combat (Torn will be wasted after a S:CE) and you need to play Psyche! only when really needed. Plus, using Psyche will make the opponent play all his combat ends until he doesn't have any left. With IG, if you start to get short of them in hand , the opponent will begin to play again his combat ends that he was unable to play before.
Psyche! can also be used to counter press and also to counter a Rötschreck.
IG can negate some opponent strikes, but not many. And I like to play Fast Hands in case there's an Ivory Bow to steal.
On the downside, you can't cycle WWS as you cycle Torn, that's why I like to play both because not everyone is playing S:CE
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Ankha (and the DS): WWS and Psyche in POT (and CEL/cel) combat is nice idea for the reasons Ankha explained - more cost efficient in the long run. It doesn't rule out TS + IG - and can be almost as devastating as TS + IG with vampires in low blood.
Here's my deck that I'll be building in the future:
Deck Name : Jacques Molay and the Templars
Author : Jussi
Description :
Crypt [13 vampires] Capacity min: 5 max: 9 average: 7.76923
5x Jacques Molay 9 CEL POT PRE obf val !Brujah:4
3x Lord Aaron Wesley 8 CEL POT PRE ani obf !Brujah:4
2x Urraca 7 ANI CEL POT pre bishop !Brujah:4
1x DeSalle 7 CEL POT PRE !Brujah:4
1x Jeremiah Noble 6 CEL POT obt pre !Brujah:3
1x Axel Von Anders 5 PRE cel obf pot !Brujah:4
Library [90 cards]
Action [11]
1x Heart of the City
5x Rumble
5x Sense Death
Action Modifier [7]
2x Hidden Lurker
4x Iron Glare
1x Mask of a Thousand Faces
Action Modifier/Combat [4]
4x Resist Earth's Grasp
Combat [45]
2x Armor of Caine's Fury
2x Disguised Weapon
2x Immortal Grapple
2x Majesty
7x Psyche!
7x Pursuit
4x Sideslip
7x Taste of Vitae
4x Thrown Sewer Lid
4x Torn Signpost
4x Weighted Walking Stick
Equipment [5]
1x Codex of the Edenic Groundskeepers
1x Guarded Rubrics
1x Ivory Bow
1x Joumlon's Axe
1x Sword of Judgment
Master [18]
2x Blood Doll
3x Dabbler
2x Dreams of the Sphinx
1x Drop Point Network
1x Giant's Blood
2x Path of Lilith, The
2x Lilith's Blessing
7x Villein
I'll be relying on Zack's rush more than anything else. I'm not a fan of Fame, it tends to be a prayer in my game style and in the end I'll be winning games by destroying every vampire other than just making pool damage. <== That means, when there are two or three players left in the table.
----
Banging trashcans, breaking windows
We'll wake you up tonight
We like the good time, we scream and shout
And that's what fun's about