Cards for Necromancy

[Edited to add in new a card: 12-7-13] Vigor Mortis Action Requires Necromancy Choose an ally or retainer in any ashheap. Untap the acting vampire and put that ally or retainer in play with this card on them and their starting life. If it is an ally it may use its own text. If it is a retainer it gains any permanent effects that it would give to its employer (i.e. +1 bleed, +1 intercept) ; it has 1 strength, 1 bleed. After it takes an action which resolves burn the ally or retainer. As above but put a blood from this acting vampire on this card. When an action by the minion with this card resolves burn a counter off this card or the minion. During your untap one vampire you control may transfer 1 blood to this card Past Sins Action Requires Necromancy action. Name a card in your prey's ash-heap. Put this card in play and remove a copy of the named card from play from your prey's ash-heap to put a counter on this card. Minions you control with Necromancy may take a action to remove a copy of the named card from your prey's ash-heap to put a counter on this card. When a minion you control is bleeding your prey you may burn X counters from this card to gain +X bleed against your prey. Burn this card when your prey leaves play. You may only control one Past Sins. As above but when you put this card in play you may remove two copies of the named card. Chronicle of Buried Secrets Equipment Requires Cost 1 pool The minion with this equipment may remove a mortal ally or retainer from any ash-heap as a +1 stealth action to put X counters on this equipment where X is the cost in pool or 1 for minions without a pool cost. The vampire with this equipment gains +1 bleed for each counter on this card. Enslaved Wraith Retainer Requires Wraith 2 life. Put this wraith on the acting vampire. The acting vampire may burn 1 life from this wraith to give the acting vampire +1 stealth. As above but you may burn this retainer to make a non-bleed action unblockable. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

I understand the point of Past Sin, but taking one action to get +1 bleed one day is pretty meh, even when removing one card at the same time. Chronicle of buried past seem better, since it work with Shambling, and Harbinger for example can use the bleed. The third one feel okay.

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Chronicle of Buried Secrets > Equipment > Requires > Cost 1 pool > The minion with this equipment may remove a mortal ally or retainer from any ash-heap as a +1 stealth action to put X counters on this equipment where X is the cost in pool or 1 for minions without a pool cost. The vampire with this equipment gains +1 bleed for each counter on this card. > So if you discard multiple copies of Scapelli (3 pool), you can gain +3 bleed each time? Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Chronicle of Buried Secrets > Equipment > Requires > Cost 1 pool > The minion with this equipment may remove a mortal ally or retainer from any ash-heap as a +1 stealth action to put X counters on this equipment where X is the cost in pool or 1 for minions without a pool cost. The vampire with this equipment gains +1 bleed for each counter on this card. > Actions that target stuff in ash heaps are always undirected.

@PB: Stuff that targets other's ash-heaps is IIRC. @Akha: If you take the 3 actions to remove the 3 Scapelli's then the card gets +3 bleed. Yes. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > @Akha: > If you take the 3 actions to remove the 3 Scapelli's then the card gets +3 bleed. Yes. > +9 in fact. Scapelli have a pool cost of three, so three counter per action.

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > @PB: > Stuff that targets other's ash-heaps is IIRC. > Nope. Actions that target an ash heap are always undirected. LSJ 24 Sep 2001 Also: Directed Actions General Rulings > > Directed Actions: > > Actions which target another player's hand, uncontrolled region, crypt, or library (or cards therein) are directed at that player. (Actions which target another player's ash heap are undirected by default). [LSJ 20010924] [LSJ 20010926] > None of this is to say that a new card's text couldn't over-ride that general rule/ruling.

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Chronicle of Buried Secrets > Equipment > Requires > Cost 1 pool > The minion with this equipment may remove a mortal ally or retainer from any ash-heap as a +1 stealth action to put X counters on this equipment where X is the cost in pool or 1 for minions without a pool cost. The vampire with this equipment gains +1 bleed for each counter on this card. > 6x Chronicle of Buried Secrets 6x Learjet 8x Scapelli 10x Hag's Wrinkles 20x Freak Drive 4x Psychic Veil Nx stealth and masters One guy with nec/thn bleeds for 4 on turn 3, two guys bleed for 20 on turn 5, three guys bleed for 57 on turn 7... EDIT: In case you're wondering, they're just chilling out on turns 4 and 6. Don't want to look too aggressive.

> Ankha wrote: > > > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > > Chronicle of Buried Secrets > > Equipment > > Requires > > Cost 1 pool > > The minion with this equipment may remove a mortal ally or retainer from any ash-heap as a +1 stealth action to put X counters on this equipment where X is the cost in pool or 1 for minions without a pool cost. The vampire with this equipment gains +1 bleed for each counter on this card. > > > So if you discard multiple copies of Scapelli (3 pool), you can gain +3 bleed each time? > No, you play Ravnos with Necromancy and Goodnight Sweet Prince your Imbued crypt into the ash heap, and get +6 bleed every time you target Earl or Anna, silly.

1st card, mm actions for bleeds. Ok little on the weak side. 2nd card, like the idea, I can see that one be used. 3rd card, mm..no Enslaved Wraith should be Dom & Nec Search your library for an Wraith This vampire recruits that Wraith(requirements and cost apply as normal). Shuffle afterward. DOM & NEC take control of any Wraith in play. Or something to that effect.

> bluezeb wrote: > 3rd card, mm..no Enslaved Wraith should be Dom & Nec Search your library for an Wraith This vampire recruits that Wraith(requirements and cost apply as normal). Shuffle afterward. DOM & NEC take control of any Wraith in play. Or something to that effect. > In lore, domination have no effect on wraith as far as I know. Necromancy on the other hand can work. I also don't see the reason why the completely different card you propose is better or worse than the one from Juggernaut.

Firat card:seems ok ish. Could be bad, but id see it tested. "Chronicle" seemz odd to me being put on a non-unique card. Second: seems crazy strong. Maybe comes out empty, and any vamp with necro can take the action to remove all +1 bleed counters currently on the card and put x more on, where x iw cost of ally they rfg Third, not sure of. Nagaraja control the stuff of oblivion, so they need at least one ally and one retainer that are spectres, can blow up wraiths, inflict agg, and deny blocks/tap weenies who try blocking. HoS should have wraith allies and retainers that can chump block but dont burn, or do any damage, kinda like a weak throwaway ponticulous. Think 2 life ponticulous with 0 statlines and immune to non agg, comes oit with pathos, rfg when theres none left. And maybe a retainer wraith that gives +1 intercept at nec aud and +1 hand size and the nec ability at. NEC AUS. Not sold on the submitted retainer tho.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > Firat card:seems ok ish. Could be bad, but id see it tested. > +1 bleed per zero-stealth action seems pretty poor. If you're doing a action against your prey, just play Computer Hacking. If you want to remove cards from ash heaps, add a few Trochomancy. If you're the Giovanni, probably play Threats or Conditioning or something. If you're the Samedi or Harbingers looking for a bit more lunge, this isn't really it. If card conservation were a real thing, it might be interesting - but very few decks run out of cards, unless they're combat decks or twisters. Imagine I have 4 actions, and 2 copies of Computer Hacking available. (I use Computer Hacking as a baseline - a deck could be playing something better.) 4 actions at zero stealth, 6 bleed. Switch one of them for a Past Sins. Play Past Sins (0 bleed), bleed with Computer Hacking and Past Sins (3), take an action to put a counter on the thing, bleed for 2? And I'm more blockable - my predator can get in on the act too. If I have action modifiers, I can potentially play the action modifiers on all four bleed actions - but only two of the four actions with Past Sin. If I just equip a Camera Phone, this vampire can bleed for 2 the next three turns giving me six. And that's assuming that I can get a regular supply of a card from another deck - not every deck is quite so predictable. Would I much rather have my destiny in my own hands? Probably. If the action taken to remove a card were at +1 stealth, it would have a niche, but still wouldn't likely see much play. A card that could, say, take one counter from a Necromancer in your untap phase and slowly build up to give you expendable +bleed - would that be a way to go? Maybe. > ReverendRevolver wrote: > Second: seems crazy strong. Maybe comes out empty, and any vamp with necro can take the action to remove all +1 bleed counters currently on the card and put x more on, where x iw cost of ally they rfg > Also that if it moves minion, it loses its counters. Heidelberg or (untap+) Rave would be quite unpleasant.

> Chronicle of Buried Secrets > Equipment > Requires > Cost 1 pool > The minion with this equipment may remove a mortal ally or retainer from any ash-heap as a +1 stealth action to put X counters on this equipment where X is the cost in pool or 1 for minions without a pool cost. The vampire with this equipment gains +1 bleed for each counter on this card. > Ok, make a Nec deck with some Scappelli (ally - 3 pool or any other mortal ally since its to discard anyway). Discard them to your ash heap, put one Chronicle on each of your minions (not unique), put a Heidelberg just to make things faster.. Its to broken...

> Ohlmann wrote: > In lore, domination have no effect on wraith as far as I know. Necromancy on the other hand can work. > Some people have suggested using things like Shroudsight and Lifeless Tongues to let you see (read: make eye contact with) a wraith. Interesting hack. But in V:TES, Dominate already affects wraiths. Far Mastery, Command, Mesmerize. It also, in general, seems a reasonable approximation for "Used by powerful Giovanni".

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > But in V:TES, Dominate already affects wraiths. Far Mastery, Command, Mesmerize. > There is a difference between accepting that respecting lore is too problematic for few gain, and going out of his way to contradict the lore. I feel it's the second case here. > jamesatzephyr wrote: > It also, in general, seems a reasonable approximation for "Used by powerful Giovanni". > Yes, but powerful Harbinger are supposed to be able to do stuff with wraith, too.

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > jamesatzephyr wrote: > > It also, in general, seems a reasonable approximation for "Used by powerful Giovanni". > > > Yes, but powerful Harbinger are supposed to be able to do stuff with wraith, too. > Err, yes? The existence of a card that facilitates a good use for wraiths by the Giovanni in no way prevents Harbingers getting some similarly powerful utility, any more than Dominate being good at bleeding prevents Dementation being good at bleeding with its own cards.

I agree that contradicting lore just for the sake of it is bad. But if we want necro to be on par with dom and dem, we should start banning govern, kindred spirits..... you know what, just ban dominate and dementation if we need necro to be on par with them...... The root of the issue is early sets and necro SUCKING TERRIBLY. Lots of unplayable cards there. Suhailah i can justify playing, but early necro i cant except in very casual decks. Also, shambling hordes was a step in the right directioin, but most early ally and retainers that couldve helped necro went to the giovanni. The (i presume at least) point of proposing new necro cards is making it suck less. Makes sense. Its just finding a niche for necro, especially the non giovanni side of it, thats challenging. Samedi could use help, nagaraja could use some uniqueness in what they do (thier disciplines are dominate, necro, and le din tho's special, right?) But HoS really would like necro to be better, since they are just !ventrue without dominate or !salubri without valaren currently. So, adding better necro cards is a great option. The cappadoccian mortis got changed in vtm, but the basics are a fair start for some HoS necro. Another route is clan specific necro cards, but ideas for both couldnt hurt. Point im failing at making: necro needs a better niche than possesing amd one kind of zombie. Wraith allies and retainers, plus hand size, and minor weenie tapping could all be touched on. I dont know ig huge number bleed pump is what they need. Thematically, i mean, since it makes them better mechanically. But necro and protean having a conditioning for +5 isnt really the best way to fix them.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > I agree that contradicting lore just for the sake of it is bad. > I'm not sure that creating a dual-discipline card, so you can take advantage of making the card a little more powerful etc., is "just for the sake of it". > ReverendRevolver wrote: > The root of the issue is early sets and necro SUCKING TERRIBLY. > Necromancy in Dark Sovereigns isn't the worst discipline ever. It comes out of it much better than Chimerstry, for my money. The major problem is that it ends up being very unfocused. And then the additions in Ancient Hearts are pap. Serpentis gets basically two decent cards in AH (Temptation and Form of Corruption), a bunch of really sub-standard nonsense (what was Eyes of the Serpent about? why do I want terrible stealth from Form of Corruption, when I can just play Obfuscate? Mummify?). And Phobia, which was almost not entirely awful in its original printing ("Each master phase"), then awful ("your master phase"). Of 9 Necromancy cards, three are pretty solid. Spectral Divination (stealth/intercept) was quite decent. Jar the Soul had reasonable use in tap and bleed decks (which are massively less popular these days). Spiritual Intervention isn't awful, but somewhat contradicts Potence. Then you get Compel the Spirit and Possession which weren't totally awful, but very trick-focused - certainly they fueled some fun[ decks, even if not terribly effective. Torment the Soul looks okay (important words follow) when viewed from the perspective that WotC apparently thought second-round combat was a feasible strategy (which they apparently did). Of course, it doesn't mesh well with Potence and the need for Immortal Grapple, and was totally outclassed by just playing Disarm (once Sabbat rolled around) and Pulled Fangs (which was totally amazingly awesome, and yet another of the reasons why second round combat was a totally bonkers proposition). And, of course, Eyes of the Dead.

As of now, good necro is: Shambler. S:ce (for free) +1 stealth or intercept for a blood on one card. -1 intercept or block fails on a card. Ok cards: Possesion Demonic possesion Chair of hades Chill of oblivion Playable: Dead hand Jar the soul The issue for me is, even the good cards arent amazing, and with the exception of shambling hordes, something else does something very similar, typically with less cost. Earth meld>just combat ends, for example. Theres just not much character to make necro stand out. Its a support discipline, not unlike protean, but both it and protean could be way cooler with a little help.

You missed Mercy for Seth which is very nice card for harbingers who can block the action to remove it. Can completely shut down vampires with it, and as a nice side effect, it insta kills imbued.

I am not sure of the value of determining which indep' discipline suck the most. All four are weaksauce with a small number of extremely powerful card. Except quietus, who try to save itself with Loss and fail.

Thematic Ideas: Past Sins Victorian/Shakespearean Tragedy always centers around a person's sins and misuse of their powerful aspects coming to bite them in the ass. So, digging around for people's past deeds resulting in bleed. It's meant to punish the 'repeaters' like high Majesty, high Obedience, Ashur Tablet and Anthelios Decks. Chronicle of Buried Secrets Simple: A record of where all the bodies were buried and then exploiting them. Dead mortals --> + bleed Enslaved Wraith Find a Wraith. Use to enslave it. Throw it in harm's way to keep you safe while you do the important things. The classic "disposable goon". Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Ohlmann wrote: > I am not sure of the value of determining which indep' discipline suck the most. All four are weaksauce with a small number of extremely powerful card. Except quietus, who try to save itself with Loss and fail. > This thread is focusing on necro, obviously a skill in need of some better stuff. For comparisons sake, i believe(since thats why i keep including protean as a point of reference), other indy disciplines were thrown in. To be fair, indy clans probably get off better than the bloodlines with necro as a discipline. They get more cool toys. The ravnos especially got at least sense dep and draba. Alonf with plenty of other actually useful and thematically logical stuff for chi, plus good in clan stuff. The big point is giovanni got cards for clan specific that could have been necro in general. Not even justcgood stuff, like zombie which is so-so, could have been necro. Necro still sucks, and that is the cause of this thread. To be fair, lsj tried to help quietus with loss.

Ironically I'm planning to Necro a thread about Necromancy. New card added to the original post. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

I don't think it should untap the acting vampire, thats a bit strong when you can get a basically free ally with 3 bleed with it. Thats basically like a super powered version of Nocturn, and Nocturn's are already quite strong.

The formulation is very hard to understand, mainly because you never state that the retainer is put into play as an ally ; so the whole bit on the benefit he give look absurd when you believe that it's a retainer that you put on one of your vampire.

> Klaital wrote: > I don't think it should untap the acting vampire, thats a bit strong when you can get a basically free ally with 3 bleed with it. Thats basically like a super powered version of Nocturn, and Nocturn's are already quite strong. > It's not even on +1 stealth. Require more cards than nocturn. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > [Edited to add in new a card: 12-7-13] > Vigor Mortis > Action > Requires Necromancy > Choose an ally or retainer in any ashheap. Untap the acting vampire and put that ally or retainer in play with this card on them and their starting life. If it is an ally it may use its own text. If it is a retainer it gains any permanent effects that it would give to its employer (i.e. +1 bleed, +1 intercept) ; it has 1 strength, 1 bleed. After it takes an action which resolves burn the ally or retainer. > As above but put a blood from this acting vampire on this card. When an action by the minion with this card resolves burn a counter off this card or the minion. During your untap one vampire you control may transfer 1 blood to this card. > 0 stealth Necromancy actions seems like an intuitive way to help Samedi without helping Giovanni, I'll give you that. As for the card as a whole, it's absurdly strong. Free Ponticulus, Ambrosius and Tye Cooper for any vampire with ? And you get to untap afterwards? The inferior alone is super strong for spamming Veneficti, Renegade Garou or Remnant, but Vigor Mortis + Compel the Spirit? It's Summon History on crack.

If you use it with Infernal servitor, can you burn the serviteur instead of removing it from the game ? And do you use inferior or superior text ? If yes to both, it's more than absurd, since in addition to being able to bleed for 3 at stealth, he can Veil your other action just to be sure.

> Ohlmann wrote: > If you use it with Infernal servitor, can you burn the serviteur instead of removing it from the game ? And do you use inferior or superior text ? > > If yes to both, it's more than absurd, since in addition to being able to bleed for 3 at stealth, he can Veil your other action just to be sure. > I was more thinking political ally or robert carter for the 3 bleeding ally, but yeah servitor is even worse. And also yeah, if you take an ally that doesn't take actions (like ponticulus for example) its more or less permanent.