Please Ban The Unmasking

I am ok with Giant's Blood, Villein, Lilith's Blessing, Golconda, etc. What I really want to see banned is The Unmasking. Why? Turning every ally into a +1 intercept minion is a HUGE change to the game state, one that can not be countered without a LOT of effort. Add that to Carlton's +1 intercept, Imbued convictions, etc and it can too easily shut a lot of decks down cold. This card shows up in just about every tournament, if not every tournament round, that I play in. Make players actually put some effort into blocking with allies if that's what they really want to do. It would still be a powerful strategy with all of the sources of intercept around, not even counting Imbued. So tired of this card. Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

So you're mostly tired because you play again ally decks (that include some Unmasking of course). If Unmasking was banned, would you be less tired? If you expect some ally meta, why don't do play some anti-ally cards? Currently in Paris, we don't see ally decks that often, and Unmasking isn't a major problem. You can't ban cards because during one period, you encounter more decks of a certain type. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

All event cards are problematic. The Unmasking is one of the worst offenders. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

Simply meta against allies — there's a handful of allies can't block cards and Entrancement + Force of Personality is solid (The Uncoiling is also useful). For a lot of theses decks +1 int is their only defence, generate 2 and you're normally clear. If +1 int poses such a problem for some decks I'd more concerned about the decks than The Unmasking. Removing it from the game would make a lot of decks less viable and impoverish the game. Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook

I hoped this was a satyrical thread when i read the title. Im just out of the NAC weekend, and i truly feel nothing needs banned. A few things neex erratad still, lb and tablets, but thats not what you have q problem with. During the won, i was told several people had thier games wrecked by 4 th cycle. I watched a game during the last chance qualifier where someone dropped 4th cycle and made an Anarch Convert have the Liason title from rise of the whatever it is for the game, since that event has the only text to remove that title. Ppl were planning on metagaming against imbued and allies at an event where the mrta was unknown. Several vampires bled with entrancement. Jake washington was fed to needy vampires all week long. I saw wonderous thngs, such as Mikkel gaining 60 pool with journal of horash ina turn(his total eas then 75 with 3 on an uncontrolled minion...... :0) i saw no evidence that unmasking was broken. Its strong. Strong enough to make hellhound playable in casual even. But its car from the most stupid powerful card in the game. Ive used it with satyrs and dead hookers, and you know what? People i could catch withca media location got caught more, people i couldnt got to cycle stealth. If you can get 1 stealth and rarely or never more ( maybe perfect paragon, resist earths grasp, or forched marchis your only stealth? Or you vote without any stealth but what the action gets?) Then unmasking isnt as strong as abbot. Or no secrets. It just gets you caught by (typically) a weaker minion than by a vamp with one of those cards. War ghouls are the exception, and force of personality and crocs tongue make them more managable. This isnt like the mmpa decks, where its a problem, and some troll says "play more suddens, build a better deck" there are real sulver bullrts for unmasking, and cards that screw allies. Whats really your problem? No 4th cycle, uncoiling, entrancement or black hand ritual? Ok, that was troll like of me, but really, has unmasking been a bigfer problem for your deck than getting caught without having a way to deal with it in general, or perhaps not having enough stealth in general? I have and run decks that cry to standing intercept. Its the drawback if playing some decks. And yet another risk you have to calculate. Unamsking is fine, and enables eay more decks than its even broken.

> brandonsantacruz wrote: > I am ok with Giant's Blood, Villein, Lilith's Blessing, Golconda, etc. What I really want to see banned is The Unmasking. Why? Turning every ally into a +1 intercept minion is a HUGE change to the game state, one that can not be countered without a LOT of effort. Add that to Carlton's +1 intercept, Imbued convictions, etc and it can too easily shut a lot of decks down cold. This card shows up in just about every tournament, if not every tournament round, that I play in. > > Make players actually put some effort into blocking with allies if that's what they really want to do. It would still be a powerful strategy with all of the sources of intercept around, not even counting Imbued. So tired of this card. > What decks are you playing that automatically lose to a predictable, fixed amount of blocks at a fixed +1 intercept per round? Why do the ally decks get to a point where they can recruit enough allies and cycle enough cards to hit Unmasking? This just sounds like a case of some lower tier decks losing to higher tier ally decks.

@Brandon: Corruption Decks. Just start playing: Nacho-cheese: Nakhtoreb + Venenation = Unblockable SCREW YOU! Corrupt Bleeding: Snakes + Venenation + Change of Target... Who needs combat when you're not getting into combat unless you block for some cocaine addled reason... Stealth Vote, using 'swarm punishers' like Snipe Hunt, Kindred Segregation, Anarch Revolt, Domain Challenge... If people keep on bringing guns, bring landmines... Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

In Los Angeles, there is a list of cards you will always see. I don't know about up where Brandon lives but I know he has played some games down here. This list is probably similar to other locations. The list is about 18 cards long. 1) Bowl of Conv 2) Carlton, the doorman 3) Heart 4) Ivory bow 5) No Secrets 6) Unmasking 7) etc, etc. Allies are usually at every table, Dennis and absimlards armies, Robert and Nocturns, Mike S. and Renegade Garou, the other Robert with Arms Dealers, even Darby when he is here "Pooping out warghouls on the second turn." I've gone from a minimum of 2 entancements (2 years ago) to a minimum of 4 in any deck. The Uncoiling works against unmasking, Anthelios, narrow Minds, and other event type decks. Also, the names I mentioned playing ally decks are some really good players. I think, Brandon, that it might be more an issue that really good players can use a really good card to make it really hard for everyone else to win. You just have to adjust to players abusing the card. Maybe throw in some Blood to Water!!!! LOL!!!

I believe intercept, specialy of the permanent type, is a bit out of control here and now. But I don't think banning *only* Unmasking will only displace the problem. I believe that the whole package would be : * ban unmasking * ban the bowl * make 2nd tradition as either +2 intercept against D action, or burn one blood to untap, not both, and not on everything. * make No Secret allow only one block tapped per turn * limit to one intercept retainer per vampire * and maybe something for abbot like a blood cost or untap at end of turn instead of immediatly. This way, actions would be much more successful on average, and more importantly complete deck shutdown by intercept would be much more difficult. Maybe the Unmasking is not broken and/or uber powerful. But it can be extremely irrating to see your prey intercepting stealthy, undirected action without needing card. It's more or less the same problem as tupdog torporing each vampire the turn you influence them : maybe it don't make your predator win, but it make you miserable. (also, 2nd trad mean that being a prince is better for intercept than having auspex. No wonder why eurobrujah or nosferatu work with prince and not archbishop)

At least one of those adjustments completely nerfs Animalism Walls, while not shredding the tournament scene they shouldn't be kicked in the junk because people aren't playing either: 1) Block denial (Seduction, Force of Personality, True Love's Face, Crocodile's Tongue, etc) 2) Change of Target 3) Block Punishment (Aching Beauty, Venenation, Burning Touch, etc) Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> TorranceCircle wrote: > In Los Angeles, there is a list of cards you will always see. I don't know about up where Brandon lives but I know he has played some games down here. This list is probably similar to other locations. The list is about 18 cards long. > > 1) Bowl of Conv > 2) Carlton, the doorman > 3) Heart > 4) Ivory bow > 5) No Secrets > 6) Unmasking > 7) etc, etc. > > Allies are usually at every table, Dennis and absimlards armies, Robert and Nocturns, Mike S. and Renegade Garou, the other Robert with Arms Dealers, even Darby when he is here "Pooping out warghouls on the second turn." I've gone from a minimum of 2 entancements (2 years ago) to a minimum of 4 in any deck. > > The Uncoiling works against unmasking, Anthelios, narrow Minds, and other event type decks. > > Also, the names I mentioned playing ally decks are some really good players. I think, Brandon, that it might be more an issue that really good players can use a really good card to make it really hard for everyone else to win. You just have to adjust to players abusing the card. Maybe throw in some Blood to Water!!!! LOL!!! > I am thinking of LA as my extended meta at this point. There is some tech I'm working on to hose the armies of expendable, +1 intercept (or more) dudes, but none as classy as Wind Dance + Apportation + Blood to Water like you did to that Garou. That was a highlight of that tournament. What I'm concerned about is having such a broad power based on one permanent card. The only thing I can think of in the same ballpark is Week of Nightmares. How many zero cost, no requirement Ravnos can you think of? My guess is none. Spend a little more on your allies and get a bunch of cool options. That's great if you are the one playing it, but sucks if you maybe want to oust that person. Getting so much permacept usually requires a lot of effort. Unmasking just makes it too easy. It is hard to get rid of/prevent the card. The card has no or almost no drawback. I could think of a few things to help limit the power of the card, but I would prefer to ban it outright than do errata. Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

Computer Hacking Allies + Cloak the Gathering Vampires. Just recruit chumps, cheap expendable chumps who can bleed and S&B your prey to bits using a giant fat wad of Cloak the Gathering, Psychic Veil and Veil the Legions. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

I think it's all the fault of the Event card type having such inelegant design.

> Ohlmann wrote: > I believe intercept, specialy of the permanent type, is a bit out of control here and now. But I don't think banning *only* Unmasking will only displace the problem. > > I believe that the whole package would be : > * ban unmasking > * ban the bowl > * make 2nd tradition as either +2 intercept against D action, or burn one blood to untap, not both, and not on everything. > * make No Secret allow only one block tapped per turn > * limit to one intercept retainer per vampire > * and maybe something for abbot like a blood cost or untap at end of turn instead of immediatly. > > This way, actions would be much more successful on average, and more importantly complete deck shutdown by intercept would be much more difficult. > > Maybe the Unmasking is not broken and/or uber powerful. But it can be extremely irrating to see your prey intercepting stealthy, undirected action without needing card. It's more or less the same problem as tupdog torporing each vampire the turn you influence them : maybe it don't make your predator win, but it make you miserable. > > (also, 2nd trad mean that being a prince is better for intercept than having auspex. No wonder why eurobrujah or nosferatu work with prince and not archbishop) > LoL Sure, sure, lemme just wipe that dust off my Malk '94 there with all those "balanced" changes you propose B-)

> Pendargon wrote: > LoL > > Sure, sure, lemme just wipe that dust off my Malk '94 there with all those "balanced" changes you propose B-) > I'd better *also* change stealths cards than the current state.

Lots of minions with +1 intercept != lots of intercept. or do not care about the Unmasking. Combat that can get through the allies does not care either. Both of them also work against all kinds of walls. If you are planning on stealth-bleeding with Mirror Walk as your only stealth card, then you have a problem, but that does not mean Unmasking is broken. It just means you built a deck that is vulnerable to it. In the deck clinic, maybe we should add the question: "How do you expect to make your actions succeed?"

Allies don't have an answer to Form of Mist/Earth Meld/Shadow Body/SC:E and Unmasking fortunately doesn't change that. It's not a balanced card, it lacks some kind of drawback, but i sure wouldn't ban it personally. It doesn't break the game and you can meta against it. Enter: Stanislava, Lord Fianna, Kamiri [base] with an added ambulance, Xeper (Juniper), Secret must be kept, Kindred Segregation, Heavy Combat (TM), Power of One, Shattering (demented Anarch Ravnos could really make use of this card), Recurring contemplation on top of the usual Entrancements or just bring your own allies to the table ('collaborating' is one of the better options here)... or bring Scourge of the Enochians to nuke Horatio/Piotr preferably BEFORE they can get the Warghouls in play. Not even the 'collaborating part unbalances the game as a whole or makes it less rich in its possibillities.

> Non-existant user wrote: > Lots of minions with +1 intercept != lots of intercept. or do not care about the Unmasking. Combat that can get through the allies does not care either.?" > I disagree with both of these statements. Any standing intercept will end up hurting a stealth bleed deck. These decks start to have trouble when every bleed action requires +2 stealth and every undirected action needs +1 stealth. Also take into account that Carlton + Unmasking increases it to +3 stealth per bleed. Plus you have to deal with the rushing allies, meaning that if you only pack stealth + and no combat defense, you may have a problem. TorranceCircle is correct that Carlton appears at every game in LA. "Combat that can get through the allies" Hmm. Interesting concept. Many combat packages are not efficient against allies. And even after you've burned the ally, you may not have any combat cards left to deal with the actual vampires. Underbridge Stray, Vagabond Mystic and other effects make allies very resilient. The Unmasking + allies + Pentex Subversion vs. combat superstar = defeat of combat superstar deck as smaller vampires are unable to remove Pentex guarded by resilient or expendable allies. Yeah - The Unmasking makes everything worse.

> AaronC wrote: > > > Non-existant user wrote: > > Lots of minions with +1 intercept != lots of intercept. or do not care about the Unmasking. Combat that can get through the allies does not care either.?" > > > I disagree with both of these statements. Any standing intercept will end up hurting a stealth bleed deck. These decks start to have trouble when every bleed action requires +2 stealth and every undirected action needs +1 stealth. Also take into account that Carlton + Unmasking increases it to +3 stealth per bleed. Plus you have to deal with the rushing allies, meaning that if you only pack stealth + and no combat defense, you may have a problem. TorranceCircle is correct that Carlton appears at every game in LA. > > "Combat that can get through the allies" Hmm. Interesting concept. Many combat packages are not efficient against allies. And even after you've burned the ally, you may not have any combat cards left to deal with the actual vampires. Underbridge Stray, Vagabond Mystic and other effects make allies very resilient. The Unmasking + allies + Pentex Subversion vs. combat superstar = defeat of combat superstar deck as smaller vampires are unable to remove Pentex guarded by resilient or expendable allies. > > Yeah - The Unmasking makes everything worse. > Stealthbleed typically likes cycling stealth, its a weakness of mozt of the deckes ive ever ran unmasking with. Comabat superstar deckw ive ran are more than happy to bun allies with support cast if the star gets pentexed. Running, or even having access to, good supporters is how i decide if a deck is viable. My Anson combat has volker, saah brando, jimmy dunn and other to name a few who have opened a can on folks if anson is pentexed, banished, or whatever. Count germaine has pug, benedict, and others that play the same combat and kill allies in his stead, typically just until pentex is burned. And then theres tension. Most ally decks, barring nkcturnes, wont discard the masters to burn it. So, if your prey is allies, you are ousting slowly by them throwing allies under the bus. If its yoir predator, theyll wither stop or your grandpredator will be thrilled to oust them. Imbued are strong. No hiding that. But if theres that much ally crap, meta against it. Or if your really worried, run bhmlks, sybils tongue for unmasking am black hand ritual play it, burn it, and its done. Seems impraxtical, but ive never been as worried about the unmasking as others seem to be.

Also, unmasking is expensive. Banning would piss lots of people off. Pod aside, it wasnt thqt long ago my wife went through 3-4 boxes of gehenna for events like that, and before that it was $50 almost to get a pair of unmaskings. Its,good, enables decks, and even when half my meta played imbued and war ghouls, we dealt with unmasking just fine. And thqts to say nothing for how carlton was always seen in our games.

I love to play decks with allies. But my playgroup adapted to this fact and I can't play them anymore because of all the Entrancements around. It's awful. Please ban Entrancement. And my Unmaskings fall to Uncoiling often enough. Damn. Baron of Frankfurt

> Joscha wrote: > I love to play decks with allies. But my playgroup adapted to this fact and I can't play them anymore because of all the Entrancements around. It's awful. Please ban Entrancement. And my Unmaskings fall to Uncoiling often enough. Damn. > Also ban xeper and sebastien goulet

> Joscha wrote: > I can't play them anymore because of all the Entrancements around. It's awful. Please ban Entrancement. And my Unmaskings fall to Uncoiling often enough. Damn. > Outside of the well-used irony to help the main point, I would say that anti-ally tech are a bit powerful. They would be perfect if every ally was something small and expendable like the Reanimated Corpse or Arms Dealer, but a lot of ally are similar to 3-cap vampire. Succeding to steal a War ghoul, the Remnant of an Endless Storm, or a Rock Cat is however a much bigger swing in balance than almost all action. Of course, it's not a balance issue exactly. It's a design issue, where a game of small interaction have a portion with very huge swing.

Don't know about you folks but if I made a deck that would get slaughtered by Unmasking then I'd stick in 1-2 uncoiling (depending on library size). Chances are that if your prey has unmasking with allies blocking your grandprey might have difficulties too and would like the deal to remove uncoiling after you have taken it out.

Exactly how is it different if there is random ally with +1 intercept blocking you than say Neighbour John or Carna with a sniper rifle?

> Klaital wrote: > Exactly how is it different if there is random ally with +1 intercept blocking you than say Neighbour John or Carna with a sniper rifle? > Ally are not alway unique and sometime are disposable, so the counter are differents. For example, Nocturn spam with the Unmasking, while not broken by any mean, don't care that you blur an Assault Rifle in the face, while Carna certainly do.

Neigbor john with abbot and atonement is a much bigger problem for some low stealth decks than allies. Again, nocturns are always expendable, but tension makes it hard for them to remain an issue. Freak drive at superior also hurts decks that try blocking everything without no secrets or other nonsense.

Hey guys ! there are anti event techs, anti allies techs (and even in the form of excellent crypt cards) that you could use but actually do not because you want to optimize your deck. When was the last time you saw Pieterzoon advance hit a table ? Funny cause he's a really decent vamp and protects you 100% against the gehenna that would screw your deck. If some cards annoy you, why not build in consequence ? Try that, and if it does not work for some consecutive months, then we can talk about banning. Please feel free to use this thread to share your experience using cards like Fourth cycle or Black hand ritual ! Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> Reyda wrote: > Hey guys ! there are anti event techs, anti allies techs (and even excellent crypt cards) that you could use but actually do not. When was the last time I saw Pieterzoon advance hit a table ? Funny cause he's a really decent vamp and protects you 100% against the gehenna that would screw your deck. If some cards annoy you, why not build in consequence ? > > Try that, and if it does not work for some consecutive months, then we can talk about banning. > > Oh, and if unmasking gets out of the game, I'd then ask for Edge explosion to make a comeback. > I agree with you until that last line. Clearly, memories of mortality needs unbanned (In all seriousness, if MoM was erratad to ghoul or non-imbued mortal ally, and made unique, it would be potentially ok. But as long as unmasking is around, ally decks are viable. If its gone, they arent, and the game becomes less dynamic. Dynamic=good. Static=screwed.)

> brandonsantacruz wrote: > I am ok with Giant's Blood, Villein, Lilith's Blessing, Golconda, etc. What I really want to see banned is The Unmasking. Why? Turning every ally into a +1 intercept minion is a HUGE change to the game state, one that can not be countered without a LOT of effort. Add that to Carlton's +1 intercept, Imbued convictions, etc and it can too easily shut a lot of decks down cold. This card shows up in just about every tournament, if not every tournament round, that I play in. > Would you be similarly shut down or frustrated when playing against: - a weenie Auspex wall - an aus/for grinder, with a strong wall element - a well put together No Secrets from the Magaji blocker - a Camarilla wall with a lot of Second Tradition - a good Howler wall ? There are strong examples of each in the TWDA, all of which tend to demonstrate exceptional good table control and longevity in the hands of a skilled player. The weenier decks tend to be more frustrating, as block denial/block fails tech (e.g. Seduction, Elder Impersonation) is typically less useful. You may at least be able to ram a few actions by an Anneke deck with a careful use of Pentex Subversion and Call of the Hungry Dead, or whatever. (Obviously, it's not the case that the wall deck needs to be able to block everything for you to be considered shut down. Though the best played walls I've seen don't want to block everything - if I'm the wall and you're my prey, I want you to do some damage to your prey; if you're my predator, I don't want my grand-predator completely destabilised. This is a tricky balance to master, but some players do it very, very well indeed.)

As usual, so many of the posters here actually think the OP is complaining about how the card personally affects him, rather than understanding that he actually describes why he thinks the card is just a bad idea. He says it quite succinctly: > brandonsantacruz wrote: > Why? Turning every ally into a +1 intercept minion is a HUGE change to the game state, one that can not be countered without a LOT of effort... > > Make players actually put some effort into blocking with allies if that's what they really want to do. It {ed. ally wall} would still be a powerful strategy with all of the sources of intercept around, not even counting Imbued. > Events can't be blocked. They can't be Sudden'd/Washed. They can only (for all practical purposes) be undone by The Uncoiling. Should events be as powerful as The Unmasking? That's the question to answer. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

You can cancel gehenna card as its played btw (unmasking is gehenna card right? )

> Jeff wrote: > Events can't be blocked. They can't be Sudden'd/Washed. They can only (for all practical purposes) be undone by The Uncoiling. > Well, there are several options: - Shattering (it's a +2 stealth action, btw) - black hand: Black Hand Ritual (only has +1 stealth) - MooT: Not to Be - event: Uncoiling - !Ventrue: Jan Pieterzoon adv.

I play several Not to Be in my DoC breed boon, funnily enough, ever since I added them to the deck, I have never seen anyone even try to play Scourge of the Enochians against that deck... although I have still canceled dragonbound, unmasking, and anthelios on occasion, so they haven't been wasted slots. I personally think people don't play this card enough.

> Jeff wrote: > As usual, so many of the posters here actually think the OP is complaining about how the card personally affects him, rather than understanding that he actually describes why he thinks the card is just a bad idea. > As usual the OP says a card is a bad idea instead of trying to cope with it. Baron of Frankfurt

> Joscha wrote: > As usual the OP says a card is a bad idea instead of trying to cope with it. > This argument work against any banishment. Including Return to Innocence and Protect Thine Own. Now, I don't believe Unmasking being unbalanced. I believe permanent intercept being too widespread.

I never had the feeling of "OMG, Unmasking is owerpowered". It is strong, sure, and highly unpleasant for some decks. But, it can be DI'ed, allies are already prone to various effects (and immune to others, but that is not the topic here. It is what it is, some decks just cope better, and some worse with it. What, Ventrues are now entitled to shout " ban New Carthage" because it shuts them down hard while giving Brujah huge boosts? Plus, every serious tournament deck i made in the last year and a half, probably more has had Uncoiling in it, if nothing to get rid of that pesky anthelies that i keep seeing on almost every damn table. There are far, far more problematic cards in Vtes, if you ask me... Just my 2 pool

> Pendargon wrote: > But, it can be DI'ed > Typo for Uncoiling, or there is an anti-event beginning by D I ? Not that it decrease the strength of your arguments. I feel permanent intercept too disruptive and a factor for stalling, but it's not per see something unbeatable, as it is shown by the very fact that it don't win that much tournament.

I agree with (most of) what Pendargon said before. I just wanted to add that I have refrained from playing allies in tournaments for the past 2 years. Mostly for two reasons: 1. Animalism combat is quite popular and a lot of allies simply die against that sort of combat. 2. Presence has become more popular, too. These decks usually run 2-3 Entrancement, and this is nicely complemented by the use of Force of Personality and Perfect Paragon, making it much, much harder for effectively blocking Entrancement. Sure Unmasking is strong. But if your deck is dependent on actions that rely on +1 stealth only, a whole lot of other things will stop you as well (the vampires with +1 intercept, decks that rely on 2nd Tradition, etc.)

Unmasking should not be cheap. For worse, its free. Giving all your allies minions +1 intercept is simply too widespread. That should, at minimum sense, cost 2 pool. The "no replace" directive for the card is a sick joke. If unmasking had a 3 pool cost, and a never replace directive, even so everyone who use allies would still use it without thinking. And it would be very effective. So we know its overpowered. I am death. Paul Kersey, Death Wish

> Charles_Bronson wrote: > Unmasking should not be cheap. For worse, its free. > > Giving all your allies minions +1 intercept is simply too widespread. That should, at minimum sense, cost 2 pool. The "no replace" directive for the card is a sick joke. > > If unmasking had a 3 pool cost, and a never replace directive, even so everyone who use allies would still use it without thinking. And it would be very effective. > > So we know its overpowered. > Seriously, what are these broken ally decks? Even more importantly, what are these decks that automatically lose to allies?

Unmasking doesn't give YOUR allies +1 intercept, it gives EVERYONES allies +1 intercept.

> Klaital wrote: > Unmasking doesn't give YOUR allies +1 intercept, it gives EVERYONES allies +1 intercept. > Seriously? So, New Carthage then could cost 0, because gives EVERYONE titled brujah +1 bleed and additional vote? I am death. Paul Kersey, Death Wish

> Charles_Bronson wrote: > If unmasking had a 3 pool cost, and a never replace directive, even so everyone who use allies would still use it without thinking. And it would be very effective. > > So we know its overpowered. > If I assert something and say it's true, it's automatically 100% fact. So we know your argument is weak.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > Charles_Bronson wrote: > > If unmasking had a 3 pool cost, and a never replace directive, even so everyone who use allies would still use it without thinking. And it would be very effective. > > > > So we know its overpowered. > > > If I assert something and say it's true, it's automatically 100% fact. > > So we know your argument is weak. > Indeed it is, as it is alone. So many others arguments in this thread. I felt I dont needed to repeat them all. I just gave one more argument. I am death. Paul Kersey, Death Wish

> Joscha wrote: > > > Jeff wrote: > > As usual, so many of the posters here actually think the OP is complaining about how the card personally affects him, rather than understanding that he actually describes why he thinks the card is just a bad idea. > > > As usual the OP says a card is a bad idea instead of trying to cope with it. > On the contrary, I do meta against allies and Unmasking quite a bit. In a recent tournament, I tailored a !Ventrue grinder deck to do well against War Ghouls, faced them, and still lost due to the number of allies in play by the time I was in the heads-up. In a tournament not too long before that I was playing Malk 94 and figured that my only way to kill Robert Scythe's deck was to "strangle him in the cradle" and not let him set up. Before I could he had out a couple War Ghouls, A. Ghouls, Carlton, etc. Lost in Crowds + something else became a requirement for any bleed action to get through. I only ousted him when my predator let me bounce his bleed of ~six at stealth, then I lost anyway due to being beaten down. Sure, there are stronger archetypes vs allies (like ANI wall), but I have faced Unmasking enough to know how damn difficult it can make it to oust someone, and basically for free. As for playing the Uncoiling, I've tried that, too. It works OK, but it mostly just sits in your hand until something maybe would really hose you or it gets discarded. I've thought about trying more exotic tech (i.e. Black Hand Ritual or The Shattering), but they require some setup and then the card slots that could be something to help oust your prey. Black Hand Ritual can also be blocked, just like Not to Be can be suddened (not by the player playing it, I grant you). All of this trouble to deal with just one card? Really? I say ban it. Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

> brandonsantacruz wrote: > As for playing the Uncoiling, I've tried that, too. It works OK, but it mostly just sits in your hand until something maybe would really hose you or it gets discarded. > Some cards like sargon fragment, whisper from the dead, Carlotta etc allow you to fetch whatever you need in your ash heap... > brandonsantacruz wrote: > I've thought about trying more exotic tech (i.e. Black Hand Ritual or The Shattering), but they require some setup and then the card slots that could be something to help oust your prey. > Oh, the joys of deckbuilding... Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> Suoli wrote: > Seriously, what are these broken ally decks? Even more importantly, what are these decks that automatically lose to allies? > Maris Streck + WarGhoul comes close IMO. I'm not saying it's unbeatable, but it's a unique almost alien decktype to play against. 'infinite intercept' for those deadly WarGhouls even though they don't have any disciplines is on the crazy side IMHO, because by the time Maris runs out of blood, the predator's/prey's vampires will be long in torpor and Piotr/Horatio can bleed totally unbothered. Antonion+Nephandi is also very powerful, and Unmasking is at its most annoying with extra-resilient allies such as Carlton/Nephandi/WarGhoul because they often don't suffer ANY damage from blocking themselves (not even when playing Trap in the latter cases). I feel Ventrue in particular suffer immensely from this auto-block.

> porphyrion wrote: > I feel Ventrue in particular suffer immensely from this auto-block. > If you play in a strong ally meta, I would say add 4/5 entrancements and 4/5 force of personality in your ventrue deck and you will see if they are so fearsome. And I swrear your friend playing warghoul will think twice before bringing this deck in other tournaments. And I know, in other cases, majesty is better than force of personality and govern is better than entrancement but they are far from useless.

I play Ventrue and Giovanni tap N bleed in tournaments allot. These are not decks that like 2+ minions with inherent intercept. Recently I also play Nephandus and my meta has allot of Warghouls and sometimes Shamblings. There is nothing broken about Unmasking. It just allows you not to dye to or . Grinder with extra Rolling with the Punches, Uncoiling, block the allies comming in and that's it for them. If he's your cross table ally, do all Governs at superior, let your prey get a VP and then bleed the table with 6 or 7 minions with . If you ban Unmasking you also have to ban all cards that allow recursion, ban Restructure and you must errata Entrancement and Far Mastery to be 0 stealth. Before Unmasking, I feel ally decks were strong because of Memories of Mortality. I agree we can't have both cards. But we must have one of them. Like any other archetype, there is not one dominant type above all others if people use better choices of deck building and deck playing.

> brandonsantacruz wrote: > As for playing the Uncoiling, I've tried that, too. It works OK, but it mostly just sits in your hand until something maybe would really hose you or it gets discarded. > Okay, you tried to cope with it. And you found sth. that works at least okay (and that even works against other bad events). YMMV but in my book that is enough to not ban it. Baron of Frankfurt

> Jeff wrote: > Should events be as powerful as The Unmasking? That's the question to answer. > You're focusing on the wrong thing. The Unmasking happens to work well in a variety of fun decks. (Plus Imbued.) Who doesn't like War Ghouls, Shamblers, or Renegade Garou? Well, the guy getting his face eaten by them, but even so. So it's relatively popular. When Events first burst onto the scene, some of them attracted a lot of table hate. They indiscriminately punch everyone in the nuts. Some of them can, with relatively little effort, destroy whole deck types. Yes, obviously some of them require a certain number of other events in play already, but that's not the most difficult thing in the world to accomplish. Fall of the Camarilla can destroy a deck based around, say, Second Tradition/Parity Shift/Carthage Remembered. (One might reasonably make an argument that those sorts of decks are very good and some toning down would be okay. But just destroying the deck isn't that!) The massive, massive table hate generated meant that quite a lot of people backed off. Maybe they didn't win, but they were ruining other decks, so other decks just turned round and got them off the table ASAP. (You saw similar reactions to Anarch Revolt decks, pre-errata.) The main two events that see a lot of active play are The Unmasking and Anthelios. They're not table melting in themselves, and they're the two you can plan to use - the scattershot approach of some events makes them much less reliable, oops, oh no, I've just ousted my grand-prey. Other events do see play, like Uncoiling (defensive/reactive), Scourge of the Enochians (similar), and a bit of Dragonbound. But if someone brings a Gehenna-stacked deck, they can still melt a table or two. And there's still not a great deal you can do about that. And a ban to Unmasking won't do much about that. (Nor would errata.) A better option, to my mind, would be a greater variety of options for interacting with Events. Put it out of play, increase their cost, burn them, shuffle them back into your deck, delay it for a turn, give it an upkeep cost, maybe a kooky Malkavian "Play a game of Jenga and toss a coin to see if you can play it" card. Does that give you a tool to use against Unmasking? Yes. And potentially against other events? Hopefully too. Options might be: a more expensive Anarch Convert like (groupless) card that can destroy an event (2 pool, 3 pool, 4 pool?) some sort of collective effort by other Methuselahs - say, a "referendum" in which each Methuselah has one vote only (and no other votes) something involving Mages altering the fabric of reality, maybe a card that requires a mage (and some better mages), which might suppress the event or give it an upkeep cost an event that makes other events more expensive to play And some of this would be multifunctional - a superior level on a card, an alternative level on a card, an option on a referendum. Say: Eminent Domain Political Action Requires a titled vampire Choose a location or event controlled by another Methuselah. Successful referendum means that the chosen card is burned, and its controller burns 2 pool. Super, super great? No, but a potentially interesting alternative to Disputed Territory that also includes pool damage, and possible Event-smiting.

I'm a big fan of allies, if not so much the ones mentioned, and I hate The Unmasking. I don't like winnie decks (not to be confused with babymaker decks), but I hate Scourge of the Enochians. Making something more powerful does not equate to making it more fun, and making a class of things more powerful tends to make the weaker things in that class weaker ... because people react to power and put in ways to deal with the more powerful things in a class that typically also mess with weaker things in a class. Traveller Card Game

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > Eminent Domain > Political Action > Requires a titled vampire > Choose a location or event controlled by another Methuselah. Successful referendum means that the chosen card is burned, and its controller burns 2 pool. > I like it. Especially the idea that it works against more than just events and it delivers pooldamage too. Maybe it is too much damage, but that is sth. for playtesting. Baron of Frankfurt

Is this thread for real or just a joke? yeah, let's effin' start banning the cards in the order of their power. Sooner or later we won't have anything else to play with than Julius and Up Yours! Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > Is this thread for real or just a joke? > > yeah, let's effin' start banning the cards in the order of their power. Sooner or later we won't have anything else to play with than Julius and Up Yours! > Banning cards in order of their power is the only way to do it, when necessary. Why ban something that's weaker than the most powerful card? Sarcasm's fine when backed up with logic. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Lönkka wrote: > Is this thread for real or just a joke? > With most "please ban..." posts, start from the principle that the person is saying "This card/deck-type is really bloody powerful and I can't deal with it." Happens a lot. There are then a variety of responses, including: - you're reading the card wrong, it doesn't work like that (so it's a lot less powerful) - you're missing some really obvious defence - if you change your strategy a little, you can survive way better (like "Burn the Madness Network whenever it hits the table, don't wait to survive the OOT combat!") - well, every deck type has some foils, and you're just doing the equivalent of playing zero combat defence and getting creamed by a powerful combat deck - actually, there are quite a lot of decks that do badly against it, maybe it warrants errata, or a better selection of defensive cards - oh wow, it's way too bloody powerful, kill it with fire (Return to Innocence) Events - and particularly powerful Events - are probably part way down that list, for me.

Also, ban is not for the most powerful card only. Some have been banned because they were annoying (Madness of the Bard mainly, and that's basically the reason for the call to ban imbued too). ANother interesting example are the table swicher. They certainly aren't the most powerful card on themselves, since they don't actually oust anyone, but they improve too much some kind of decks. In addition to be annoying, that is.

> Ohlmann wrote: > Also, ban is not for the most powerful card only. Some have been banned because they were annoying (Madness of the Bard mainly, and that's basically the reason for the call to ban imbued too). > > ANother interesting example are the table swicher. They certainly aren't the most powerful card on themselves, since they don't actually oust anyone, but they improve too much some kind of decks. In addition to be annoying, that is. > Seat switchers also were taking like 6 years discussion in tournaments before goimg to referendum, i was led to believe thats why the ban. Just like pto would be legal still if not for the IC part of its text..... Madness of the bard is not a good card for a game where everyone must have a grasp on english, but many players only speqk it, making things painfully unfair to folks who only have the basics, as rules require. Imbued are a different kind of annoying.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > Seat switchers also were taking like 6 years discussion in tournaments before goimg to referendum, i was led to believe thats why the ban. > They could cause very, very, very long discussions, yes. (I can think of one example that took something 90 minutes.) But LSJ's publicly stated reasoning for the ban was simpler - it gives a player two predators at the same time, their real predator and the guy who's going to jump right in there. Which is pretty unfair. Richard Garfield's original design was fairly careful to avoid two players having the same incentives (e.g. he expressly didn't include "Whoever ousts the Methuselah gets the VP" and went for the circle of death format), except where the third player is being egregiously horrible to the table so everyone wants rid of him. A key skill in V:TES is being able to do your thing while staying under the radar - or at least being regarded as Just Doing Normal Stuff, rather than ravaging the table with 75 Gehenna Events, 300 Anarch Revolts and a squillion Baltimore Purge.

Ban lilith's, ban unmasking ... If you play ventrue you get screwed by brujah grapple, if you play brujah you get screwed by gangrels prevention and aggro, if you play gangrel you get screwed by weenie politics, if you play weenie politics you get screwed by tupdogs rockcat, if you play tupdog you get screwed by the tremere fetching a gran madre, if you play tremere you get screwed by ventrues playing kiss of ra .... just pick the right seat, (wo)man! * ps ever try to play nephandus wall? I did ... antonio + toy unmasking and a lot of babbles & philip; guess who was my predator yesterday? Tzimisce+trap horrid form .... Rofl * pps i get lililths ban somewhat but what about the fun decks like hermana?! That really sucks!