Tier 1 deck archetypes

What are the current tier 1 decks? Master decks Girls deck Nana Animalism Anson Vote decks AAA New Brujah Royalty Ventrue Lawfirm Combat decks Shalmath with Decapitate Enkidu with Earth Meld and Psyche! for multirush Una and variants Tupdogs Walls Weenie Auspex Carna Wall Bleed decks Vignes Kiasyd Weenie Dementation Ally decks Warghouls Shamblers Nephandi Nocturns Block, bleed and endure !Ventrue/Tremere Grinder Euro Brujah 21 Decks. And then there's quite a few who have either been left in the dust a wee bit or haven't quite found their final form and potential. Bubbling Under IC Flurry Arika Giovanni Powerbleed Malk94 Unnamed New Tremere Turbo Nergal Daughter Vote Tzimisce Wall Weenie Presence Imbued Naturally all of this is just my opinion and experience and I left out on purpose a couple that I consider extremely powerful but which haven't really stabilized into the global consciousness quite yet (Serenna and Anu, for example). That said, I'm quite sure that I'm missing a whole lot. Which ones? And are there unworthies in the lot?

Grinder deck are tremere-based now, that's the main thing you missed. And Imbued are certainly not tier 1 in any way. I believe Shalmath and Enkidu are a bit weaker than you gave them credit for. Weenie auspex too, or maybe it's the description which is way too generic.

> Ohlmann wrote: > Grinder deck are tremere-based now > It is? "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ohlmann wrote: > Grinder deck are tremere-based now, that's the main thing you missed. > Any links to a couple of TWDA entries? Edit: Oh yeah, I actually remember now. The Carna decks. Yes. Also, !Ventrue seem to be winning and getting to the finals rather consistently still. > And Imbued are certainly not tier 1 in any way. > They seem to be winning and getting to the finals rather consistently still. > I believe Shalmath and Enkidu are a bit weaker than you gave them credit for. > Have you met them? Played by good players and with tuned decks? Because really, the Enkidu deck is utterly amazing and I would rate it as being in the top three decks currently. Shalmath is not quite as crazy but the combat package is just so ridiculous.

To clarify : I don't pretend to be a reference about metagame ; I am giving my opinion of people who never won a tournament. > Lemminkäinen wrote: > Also, !Ventrue seem to be winning and getting to the finals rather consistently still. > I see them less played, and coincidentally less successful. Then again, !Ventrue is not dead as an archetype, but Tremere grind seem a step above it, and both deck play more or less the same way. > Lemminkäinen wrote: > Imbued seem to be winning and getting to the finals rather consistently still. > IIRC, they have won one tournament in one year. And I never seen them perform extremely well. I would rate this as average, especially since ally stealing or burning is pretty widespread, because of war ghoul and other ally deck. > Lemminkäinen wrote: > Have you met them? Played by good players and with tuned decks? Because really, the Enkidu deck is utterly amazing and I would rate it as being in the top three decks currently. Shalmath is not quite as crazy but the combat package is just so ridiculous. > I have met them (and at least once with an above-average player behind the deck). They seem to be pretty good, but very fragile, and I have often seen a well-placed banishment or Pentex Subversion be enough to oust them. I also have seen Enkidu (especially) going to torpor because of card jam or player error/underestimation. They are solid deck, I agree ; but they don't seem all that resilient.

Reading through recent TWDA's it seems that there were quite many wall-type decks, none of them weenie. Are you sure wall category deserves only 1 entry? Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.

> Ohlmann wrote: > I see them less played, and coincidentally less successful. Then again, !Ventrue is not dead as an archetype, but Tremere grind seem a step above it, and both deck play more or less the same way. > Missing Fortitude seems like a weakness, though and results in a more wallish approach. > IIRC, they have won one tournament in one year. And I never seen them perform extremely well. I would rate this as average, especially since ally stealing or burning is pretty widespread, because of war ghoul and other ally deck. > Well, ally stealing works badly against the Imbued and they have trivial access to +2 Intercept and easy access to +3. But yeah, I hear you. What do others think? Should Imbued be placed into the bubbling under category? > I have met them (and at least once with an above-average player behind the deck). They seem to be pretty good, but very fragile, and I have often seen a well-placed banishment or Pentex Subversion be enough to oust them. I also have seen Enkidu (especially) going to torpor because of card jam or player error/underestimation. > > They are solid deck, I agree ; but they don't seem all that resilient. > Banishing Enkidu is a rare thing. At least the deck that's making the rounds here is very resistant to hand jams and to Pentex unless it hits it on the round after Enkidu comes. I admit that my opinion may be biased in that the deck is being played by the IMO top player in Finland (top three at the very least). > kombainas wrote: > Reading through recent TWDA's it seems that there were quite many wall-type decks, none of them weenie. Are you sure wall category deserves only 1 entry? > An excellent point. How would you describe the deck archetype? Just 'Wall' seems a bit nebulous. Is the Tzimisce Wall the most potent? Anson gun wall is also powerful - are there others?

> An excellent point. How would you describe the deck archetype? Just 'Wall' seems a bit nebulous. > Well, "wall" would have to be classified under combat-type ousting archetype (yeah, Smilling Jack and co. does pool damage as well, but a wall would not be able to defend them if only striking for 1). There can be non-violent wall types, but I am yet to play against or build one. If we agree, that wall belongs under combat archetype, wall differs from rush in it's way to enter the combat. Just as adding two Deep Songs into ANI bruise-bleeder does not make it a rush deck, same way adding few 2nd Trads, does not make a wall deck, it should be clear, that wall has to reliably intercept and untap, which takes quite some space in a deck. Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.

Just my 2 cents : please be more specific in your deck description. Because the name of a vampire don't fully describe what it is.

> kombainas wrote: > > > An excellent point. How would you describe the deck archetype? Just 'Wall' seems a bit nebulous. > > > Well, "wall" would have to be classified under combat-type ousting archetype (yeah, Smilling Jack and co. does pool damage as well, but a wall would not be able to defend them if only striking for 1). There can be non-violent wall types, but I am yet to play against or build one. If we agree, that wall belongs under combat archetype, wall differs from rush in it's way to enter the combat. Just as adding two Deep Songs into ANI bruise-bleeder does not make it a rush deck, same way adding few 2nd Trads, does not make a wall deck, it should be clear, that wall has to reliably intercept and untap, which takes quite some space in a deck. > I think that Wall is fundamentally different from rush combat. For example, Weenie AUS wall usually has Sniper Rifles and maybe Target: Vitals but not much else combat. It relies on the fact that the minions are somewhat expendable and all can block effectively. A wall doesn't usually aim for "nuclear" destruction but rather puts in Smiling Jack (sometimes also Anarch Revolt and Constant Revolution) and waits for the table to die. Combat decks often have something like 60 combat cards while Wall decks have for example 50 Reactions. This leads to very different decks wrt lethality. > Timo wrote: > Just my 2 cents : please be more specific in your deck description. > > Because the name of a vampire don't fully describe what it is. > Not a bad idea. I don't want to be too specific, because VTES decks, by their very nature, allow for lots of variations while still retaining the basic idea, but yes, I'll try to describe them a bit more.

> Ohlmann wrote: > To clarify : I don't pretend to be a reference about metagame ; I am giving my opinion of people who never won a tournament. > well, thank you, but you make small mistakes here. > > Lemminkäinen wrote: > > Also, !Ventrue seem to be winning and getting to the finals rather consistently still. > > > I see them less played, and coincidentally less successful. Then again, !Ventrue is not dead as an archetype, but Tremere grind seem a step above it, and both deck play more or less the same way. > they are all the rage during tournaments, and are one step ahead the tremere archetype. Fortitude cards give them access to better resilience, freak drive for multi action the turn you are out of intercept, and daring the down which is amazing for the lunge. They have a lot of small caps with dom, and the blood gain from Owain is incredible through the course of a game. They can defend the rack or smiling jack better than the most of the tremere decks I saw in tournaments. > > Lemminkäinen wrote: > > Have you met them? Played by good players and with tuned decks? Because really, the Enkidu deck is utterly amazing and I would rate it as being in the top three decks currently. Shalmath is not quite as crazy but the combat package is just so ridiculous. > > > I have met them (and at least once with an above-average player behind the deck). They seem to be pretty good, but very fragile, and I have often seen a well-placed banishment or Pentex Subversion be enough to oust them. I also have seen Enkidu (especially) going to torpor because of card jam or player error/underestimation. > > They are solid deck, I agree ; but they don't seem all that resilient. > Banishment on Enkidu, you must be kidding me they often have T.J. in the crypt to prevent parity shifts and I only saw once the old trick "i put a master discipline dominate on alexandra to mind rape everything ". Enkidu decks pack pentexes to avoid being pentexed. I have almost never seen enkidu in torpor, except when the player made an obvious mistake. Taste of vitae for 6 goes a loong way for a vampire to not even think about torpor Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> Reyda wrote: > I have almost never seen enkidu in torpor, except when the player made an obvious mistake. Taste of vitae for 6 goes a loong way for a vampire to not even think about torpor > That's where Cardinal Sin: Insubordination is a great card. My Stavros torporized Enkidu after Earth Meld + Psyche!

I saw Enkidu go down to five weenies who realized he's Red List and out of combat cards. The weenies just ran at Enkidu hitting for one and getting torpored in the process but the fifth took Enkidu with him.

> Reyda wrote: > Banishment on Enkidu, you must be kidding me > You're right in that Shalmath is much more vulnerable to Banishment. Enkidu banished is still something I have seen. > > Reyda wrote: > Enkidu decks pack pentexes to avoid being pentexed. > Packing 1 pentex don't help all that much. Of course, maybe people pack 5+ pentex to avoid the main problem of the deck, or use Infernal Pursuit or whatever to have it fast, or some other creative solution. I didn't see them doing much good however. > > Reyda wrote: > Taste of vitae for 6 goes a loong way for a vampire to not even think about torpor > But when you actually taste for six, it's combat where you were never in any risk. Enkidu is good in combat, but other deck are authorized to be good too, and believing a vampire with small fortitude cannot go in torpor is ... a bit foolish. But most importantly : people don't take specific measures against star rusher, because it is not played that much and it's a bit underestimated. But my opinion is that making a deck powerful against Enkidu or Shalmath is a lot easier than against tier1 decks. For example, being able to banish it ain't that hard, and being able to mostly survive its combat package is not that hard either, even if a small bit more difficult than sticking 5 majesty and calling it a day.

> Ohlmann wrote: > being able to mostly survive its combat package is not that hard either, even if a small bit more difficult than sticking 5 majesty and calling it a day. > Out of interest, how do you do this?

> Out of interest, how do you do this? > Looking through some latest TWDA decks, one-shotting Enkidu seems pretty ez for a combat deck. For a combat monster deck, Enkidu decks pack quite low defences (Taste is not a defence!). Hektor could burn her like any other vamp, using most tricks available for Enkidu, as well as Prevent All and Disarm combo would work, as only 1 of 4 recent TWDAs starring Enkidu had more than 5 cards to prevent that single point of damage to have Enkidu disarmed. Needless to say, most of people behind the table would diablerize torpored Enkidu even at a cost of losing a minion. Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.

How in the high heavens is a superstar multi-act RUSH deck even remotely close to tier1? Weenie rush kills vampires as well as multi-rush, except that it can actually afford to lose minions, doesn't rely on a perfect card sequence to keep going and can actually bleed for more than 1 as well. Enkidu rush with Earth Meld/Phyche is cute, somewhat of a novalty to play at the kitchen table occasionally, but it's tier 3 at most. If Enkidu multirush decks are tearing up your metagame, then either you all play terrible decks, or are all terrible players. Or both.

> kombainas wrote: > Looking through some latest TWDA decks, one-shotting Enkidu seems pretty ez for a combat deck. For a combat monster deck, Enkidu decks pack quite low defences (Taste is not a defence!). Hektor could burn her like any other vamp, using most tricks available for Enkidu, as well as Prevent All and Disarm combo would work, as only 1 of 4 recent TWDAs starring Enkidu had more than 5 cards to prevent that single point of damage to have Enkidu disarmed. Needless to say, most of people behind the table would diablerize torpored Enkidu even at a cost of losing a minion. > You seem to be focusing on possibilities instead of probabilities. I can only speak for my own deck lists and tournament experiences but Hektor and the like are only a threat if they a) have the good sense to rush Enkidu before he can act, b) have set range + Immortal Grapple, c) there's a guy that can and will diablerize Enkidu and d) Enkidu doesn't have the answer to aggravated damage in his opening hand. That's not an insignificant amount of ifs. If Enkidu does get to act, I typically run through 30 cards in a turn if necessary. That's plenty enough to pull some answers. If that's not enough, the lack of prevent cards is not really pivotal to the deck design - if hitback was a significant obstacle to winning with Enkidu, the deck lists could easily pack more combat defense.

If you really want to put this beyond the realm of personal opinion, how about going to the effort of categorizing every TWD in the last year or whatever (since publication stopped might be interesting) and assigning each deck points equal to how many players in the event? Total the points and see what happens. May not be as illuminating as hoped but it would likely be surprising. Traveller Card Game

> Ohlmann wrote: > For example, being able to banish it ain't that hard, and being able to mostly survive its combat package is not that hard either, even if a small bit more difficult than sticking 5 majesty and calling it a day. > This can apply to Shalmath but not so much to Enkidu. I mean, how do you survive 18+ Psyche! without ruining your deck?

> Izaak wrote: > How in the high heavens is a superstar multi-act RUSH deck even remotely close to tier1? Weenie rush kills vampires as well as multi-rush, except that it can actually afford to lose minions, doesn't rely on a perfect card sequence to keep going and can actually bleed for more than 1 as well. > > Enkidu rush with Earth Meld/Phyche is cute, somewhat of a novalty to play at the kitchen table occasionally, but it's tier 3 at most. > > If Enkidu multirush decks are tearing up your metagame, then either you all play terrible decks, or are all terrible players. Or both. > I don't think you really have a strong grasp on how Enkidu Meld/Psyche! flows when played correctly.

> Izaak wrote: > How in the high heavens is a superstar multi-act RUSH deck even remotely close to tier1? Weenie rush kills vampires as well as multi-rush, except that it can actually afford to lose minions, doesn't rely on a perfect card sequence to keep going and can actually bleed for more than 1 as well. > > Enkidu rush with Earth Meld/Phyche is cute, somewhat of a novalty to play at the kitchen table occasionally, but it's tier 3 at most. > Spoken like someone who has never faced even a half-way decent version of the archetype. > If Enkidu multirush decks are tearing up your metagame, then either you all play terrible decks, or are all terrible players. Or both. > Could be. French nationals, for example, are usually full of both terrible players and terrible decks.

> I don't think you really have a strong grasp on how Enkidu Meld/Psyche! flows when played correctly. > You mean, I don't have a strong grasp on how the deck plays when it flows correctly. Which I actually have. In which case it's pretty alright, but that's when the stars align and you draw the right cards in the right order. Still nowhere near tier 1, but whatever suits you.

> Izaak wrote: > > > I don't think you really have a strong grasp on how Enkidu Meld/Psyche! flows when played correctly. > > > You mean, I don't have a strong grasp on how the deck plays when it flows correctly. Which I actually have. > No, what I meant was that I don't think you understand how the deck works. Because you make it sound like it doesn't, and it does. Nothing to do with star alignments or luck, the probabilities are in favor of it working. I've seen it myself over multiple tournaments. It is, of course, entirely possible that you're talking about some kind of a variant - it's easy to ruin the deck by making some changes that might not immediately look bad.

> Izaak wrote: > > > I don't think you really have a strong grasp on how Enkidu Meld/Psyche! flows when played correctly. > > > You mean, I don't have a strong grasp on how the deck plays when it flows correctly. Which I actually have. > > In which case it's pretty alright, but that's when the stars align and you draw the right cards in the right order. Still nowhere near tier 1, but whatever suits you. > Eh, card flow is the last thing that deck has to worry about when properly built. It's more robust in that way than probably 90% of other tier 1 decks.

> Lemminkäinen wrote: > Could be. French nationals, for example, are usually full of both terrible players and terrible decks. > Winning one tournament don't make a deck tier1. Also, nobody was seriously expecting combat, or Enkidu. If you do, and actually try to remember the deck have very few space for anything other than Psyche/Earth meld/Pursuit, and that's not a foolproof plan (for example, 12 Superior Mettle can frustrate a Enkidu deck to no end, since he don't have space for Carrion) You also forget he setup slowly, oust slowly, may have to destroy his predator and give the table to his grandpredator, and like every combat deck on earth can hand jam easily. It's were Reyda say "good player don't hand jam". But they can also win tournament with underpowered deck too. Also, not tier1 does not mean trash deck. Enkidu is a way to take advantage when people are lazy on anti-combat setup, and it's not the easier deck to counter ; it's not the hardest either. PS : I do have played against the version you talk of. I have seen it hand jam, and in another instance been destroyed by blood brother rush simply because the blood brother were persistent enough to burn through the few defense card of the deck. Blood brother tier0 deck ? (sarcasm inside)

> Reyda wrote: > they are all the rage during tournaments, and are one step ahead the tremere archetype. Fortitude cards give them access to better resilience, freak drive for multi action the turn you are out of intercept, and daring the down which is amazing for the lunge. They have a lot of small caps with dom, and the blood gain from Owain is incredible through the course of a game. They can defend the rack or smiling jack better than the most of the tremere decks I saw in tournaments. > Don't forget about the advantages Tremere have: Magic of the Smith yields crucial equipment early in the game; Theft of Vitae is more effective against fortitude and ranged combat; strong clan cards like Arcane Library, Chantry, and Ponticulus. I prefer to think of the Tremere version of the archetype as different, not better or worse.

> Ohlmann wrote: > Winning one tournament don't make a deck tier1. Also, nobody was seriously expecting combat, or Enkidu. If you do, and actually try to remember the deck have very few space for anything other than Psyche/Earth meld/Pursuit, and that's not a foolproof plan (for example, 12 Superior Mettle can frustrate a Enkidu deck to no end, since he don't have space for Carrion) > (I assume you meant Rolling with the Punches, because Superior Mettle doesn't help against additionals.) If you have 12 prevent cards in a 70 card deck, I'm going to bet on Enkidu slapping you silly 9 times out of 10. Over many, many tests, Carrion Crows was deemed unnecessary. That's why it's not played. I'm also going to bet that the guy that tries to have a reliable combat defense against Enkidu has either a very specific or a very terrible deck.

> Ohlmann wrote: > Winning one tournament don't make a deck tier1. > Of course it doesn't. This version has won four tournaments, though, which is a bit closer, but still not "proof" of course. However, Suoli has something ridiculous like a 90% win rate or something with his deck. It also made the finals in EC FCQ. > (for example, 12 Superior Mettle can frustrate a Enkidu deck to no end, since he don't have space for Carrion) > I have never seen such a combat module. Seems extremely janky. > You also forget he setup slowly, oust slowly, > Nope. Quote from the TWDA: "the longest game I played in the tournament lasted for about 1h 15min I still managed to deplete my library in every single game" > and in another instance been destroyed by blood brother rush simply because the blood brother were persistent enough to burn through the few defense card of the deck. Blood brother tier0 deck ? (sarcasm inside) > And I've seen a Samedi precon oust a Girls deck. So?

> Ohlmann wrote: > Also, nobody was seriously expecting combat, or Enkidu. > Yeah, packing combat makes your deck lose focus. Then again, losing your vampires due to lack of combat makes you deck lose. Mighty hard to win from torpor/ashpile... In my experience the central European metagame tends to favor less combat oriented deck. Here in northeast combat is usually present and sometimes heavily present. Taking combat decks from heavy combat environment to soft combat environment tends to wreck even more havoc than normally on the receiving end of heavy combat. Finnish Politics!

> a) have the good sense to rush Enkidu before he can act, b) have set range + Immortal Grapple, c) there's a guy that can and will diablerize Enkidu and d) Enkidu doesn't have the answer to aggravated damage in his opening hand. > a) well, rushing a red-list is not a prob, plus just as Enkidu setup, others can as well. b) what would Enkidu do at range? Hide? If Enkidu keeps hiding, problem solved? c) anyone at the table would and if you are the target of Enkidu wrath, you would be the first volunteer to sacrifice even your star if it means not going out alone d) with 5 answers out of 90 cards, you can bet on it, and if your deck is combat-oriented, you yourself would have enough resilience just to offer another agg/disarm threat soon enough. 12 cards per 90 to prevent dmg in combat is not uncommon or unreasonable in general. So realistically, the only if is whether you can survive long enough, to deal your own havoc on Enkidu. This if is quite strong, but not really impossible even without special preparations. Rock-paper-scissors. This does not make Enkidu war machine any less powerful, just illustrates, that it faces same problems any combat would, probably less than most. Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.

> kombainas wrote: > > > a) have the good sense to rush Enkidu before he can act, b) have set range + Immortal Grapple, c) there's a guy that can and will diablerize Enkidu and d) Enkidu doesn't have the answer to aggravated damage in his opening hand. > > > > a) well, rushing a red-list is not a prob, plus just as Enkidu setup, others can as well. > > Rushing Enkidu is not always the first choice for many players. Sometimes they might have to rush their predator, for example. Or maybe they just don't want to take the chance before influencing some chump to rescue. Either way, there's a non-zero chance that Hektor won't rush Enkidu on the first turn. > b) what would Enkidu do at range? Hide? If Enkidu keeps hiding, problem solved? > Enkidu only needs to run if he doesn't have some other answer to aggra. After surviving to his first active turn, he can rush softer targets until there's an answer to Hektor. So no, problem not solved. > c) anyone at the table would and if you are the target of Enkidu wrath, you would be the first volunteer to sacrifice even your star if it means not going out alone > Again, non-zero chance that nobody is capable or willing to diablerize early in the game. Hektor might not have an Amaranth and other players might not want to risk a blood hunt. > d) with 5 answers out of 90 cards, you can bet on it, and if your deck is combat-oriented, you yourself would have enough resilience just to offer another agg/disarm threat soon enough. 12 cards per 90 to prevent dmg in combat is not uncommon or unreasonable in general. > If we're talking Hektor with inferior Fortitude, he doesn't stand much of a chance in the prevention department. I guess my main point here is that, for Enkidu to die badly against Hektor, a lot of things need to be true. Individually they might be even probable, but even if you assign something generous like a 80% probability for points a, b, c and d to go individually your way, Enkidu still only has a 41% chance of going down. The numbers are obviously pulled out of my ass but they should illustrate the point: it's not a black and white match up and there's no way to say with confidence that it'll go one way and not the other.

Our metagame is fairly combat heavy and after my own experiences the Melbourne Meta is very Aus-Guns heavy (and in general wall-ish). I saw a Tor Aus-Cel-Guns, Weenie Aus-Guns and there was at least one Animalism-type wall I remember hearing about but didn't play against. Sydney tends to have a strong sideline of combat unless the deck is intended to be literally a one-trick-pony. Powerbleed decks used to pack hit-back combat. There aren't too many "S:CE All Day Every Day" type decks, but I have one of my own. On the flip-side, I'm also starting to play some of the few decks that have no red cards at all. If I was listing Tier 1 Archetypes I'd be doing it be Ousting Method and then making "Families" under that. (I'm sure there are more than this smattering that appeared to mind) Weenie Animalism Auspex Celerity Guns Celerity Sticks Dementation Dominate Presence Computer Hacks Breeders Breed-Boon Palla Grande Ravnos Clown Car Assamite Death Star Anarch Palla Grande Undue Influence Laibon Ravnos Breed-Vote MMPA Girls will XYZ Anson TGB Princes Old Ventrue Lawfirm Ventrue with Eurobrujah AAA TGB Vote New Ventruw Lawfirm New Brujah Vote Nosferatu Princes with Nosferatu Princes (other tech) New Nosferatu Princes Trick-Deck A key card-trick or manipulating one vampire's card text to drive the main ousting technique of the deck. Sargon Multi-Entice Turbo Baron Spirit Marionette Force of Will Bleeds at Dawn Gangrel For-Pro Yo-yo bleeders Ayo Igoli XYZ Eats the World Wall Decks Characterised by being able to reliably block 2+ actions a turn and grinding down your prey (or the whole table) via permanents with actions built in. !Ventrue Stickman !Ventrue Teflon Animalism Wall No Secrets from Cesewayo Tzimsce Who See All and Block All Powerbleed Lasombra Malk 94 Brutal Influence Auspex-Based Powervote Cap 'n' Tap Lasombra Vote Cryptic Rider/Malk Rider Swarm Stealth Bleed Nocturn Mid-to-low Cap Dementation Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Our metagame is fairly combat heavy and after my own experiences the Melbourne Meta is very Aus-Guns heavy (and in general wall-ish). I saw a Tor Aus-Cel-Guns, Weenie Aus-Guns and there was at least one Animalism-type wall I remember hearing about but didn't play against. > If the people keep on using the same archetypes/deck types or even decks time and again don't people build decks to counter the threats their decks pose? Or at least take it heavily into account when building a deck? Finnish Politics!

I have a deck already got 2 decks planned to counter heavy-blocking meta-games. They'll probably sit in my deck-box permanently until its needed. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

It's not like this Enkidu Psyche list is new or anything. Enkidu was printed in what, 3rd? The Earth Meld Psyche thing has been around since then since then. That's more than 5 years now and in that time it won *drumroll* 4 tournaments. Ladies and gentlemen, we have the new breakout "tier 1 that can't be meta'd against" deck on our hands! Be prepared for contest-fest at EC2013 in a few months! // It's a reasonably ok deck in an enviroment where everybody Villeins for 8 and nobody really plays combat defense other than a few random Majesties to hate on animalism.

> Izaak wrote: > It's not like this Enkidu Psyche list is new or anything. Enkidu was printed in what, 3rd? The Earth Meld Psyche thing has been around since then since then. That's more than 5 years now and in that time it won *drumroll* 4 tournaments. Ladies and gentlemen, we have the new breakout "tier 1 that can't be meta'd against" deck on our hands! Be prepared for contest-fest at EC2013 in a few months! > !Ventrue Grinder was doable for how many years and how many did it take to finally bloom like it has? You also don't understand the Enkidu deck, if you think it was really possible in its current incarnation when Enkidu was printed (back in KMW, btw). But that's quite OK, you have now repeatedly and very ably demonstrated that you really don't understand it or have encountered a well-played, well-tuned version, so I thank you for your contribution and will ignore you now wrt Enkidu rush deck.

Enkil Cog (KoT) made Enkidu Pursuit/Psyche!/Earth Meld viable. Eyes of Argus (KoT) and a shift after Target Vitals (LotN) made !Ventrue grinder a good metagame choice. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > > Wall Decks > Characterised by being able to reliably block 2+ actions a turn and grinding down your prey (or the whole table) via permanents with actions built in. !Ventrue Stickman !Ventrue Teflon Animalism Wall No Secrets from Cesewayo Tzimsce Who See All and Block All > Is this where the Carna/Tremere deck fits? Also, what is !Ventrue Teflon? I've never heard that name for an archetype.

!Ven Teflon would be: High Intercept, High Obedience, High Deflection and plenty of FOR combat. It's basically a precursor to a Stickman or Grinder deck but tends to have bleed or permableed as their oust module. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > If I was listing Tier 1 Archetypes I'd be doing it be Ousting Method and then making "Families" under that. (I'm sure there are more than this smattering that appeared to mind) > Smattering? I'd say that half of the decks you list can't properly be considered Tier 1. The top tier can't hold that many decks. !Ventrue Teflon seems suspiciously like a much better deck archetype that actually has won a fair number (10) of tournaments: Tremere/!Tremere politics with Mirror Walk and Obedience anti-combat When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

Jeff, Of course it can. Because it can contain historical Tier 1 Decks as well as Current Tier 1 decks, and since it is a set, it can also contain an infinite number of Future Tier 1 Decks. Many of those decks are old, they don't see a lot of play now for a variety of reasons (some of them being that their tech has been superseded, others have had key tricks nerfed, others have just gone out of fashion). Some of them are new, some of them are particularly looming in the zeitgeist (for whatever reason). Some of them are enduring. Some not (like say Turbo Baron, Anarch Palla Grande Undue Influence, Assamite Death Star). It all depends on what you want to define as "Tier 1" and if you intend to make it a "Currently considered to be in the decks which have most reliably won tournaments" list... or if you want to make it a broader term. I have always viewed the "Tier 1" as "Enduring, competitive, likely to come back in fashion particularly when a long-time player drags one out of mothballs deck". Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Enkil Cog (KoT) > It came with 3rd ed. actually. Ed. sorry, mixed up with something Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.

> kombainas wrote: > > > Enkil Cog (KoT) > > > It came with 3rd ed. actually. > Enkil Cog is definitely from KoT www.facebook.com/groups/vtes.belgium/

> TorranceCircle wrote: > > > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > > Wall Decks > > Characterised by being able to reliably block 2+ actions a turn and grinding down your prey (or the whole table) via permanents with actions built in. > > > Is this where the Carna/Tremere deck fits? Also, what is !Ventrue Teflon? I've never heard that name for an archetype. > I would definately put most of the Carna Decks here. Also Jeff Kuta, the deck you described is not the same one I was thinking of but easily fits in as a Wall Deck. Along with some of the other Early Malk decks like many of those featuring Mariel Lady Thunder, Anatole, Maris Streck, Leandro-1st Trad and Rachel Brandywine Earth Meld decks (with or without 3rd Trad breed-bleed or Madness Network + Perfectionist). Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > !Ven Teflon would be: > High Intercept, High Obedience, High Deflection and plenty of FOR combat. It's basically a precursor to a Stickman or Grinder deck but tends to have bleed or permableed as their oust module. > So basically the list has 2 grinders of different variety. Jussi Hattara Webmaster Extraordinaire Finnish Politics!

> jhattara wrote: > > > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > > !Ven Teflon would be: > > High Intercept, High Obedience, High Deflection and plenty of FOR combat. It's basically a precursor to a Stickman or Grinder deck but tends to have bleed or permableed as their oust module. > > > So basically the list has 2 grinders of different variety. > Well, I know the Teflon because I remember it being one of the semi-reliable !Ventrue decks your could make waaay back in G2-3. I haven't seen many Grinders (especially not like the Euros and US players have been complaining about) in AUS. I've seen the G2 deck also run it's own vote module and oust via votes. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

When I mean tier 1, I mean the few top decks in the current environment. Both parts of that are important. If you have more than five decks in tier 1, going too far. Not everything is best. If you don't consider only the current environment, you really lose any meaning to whatever analysis you are trying to do. Best decks of yesteryear were likely best because there was a different cardpool. Imbued were clearly one of the best, if not the best strategy prior to the bannings of Edge Explosion and Memories of Mortality - tournament results are clear on that. But, besides the bannings, that was before a slate of Imbued hosers and just more cards in general for dudes with disciplines. While some newer cards were worth playing by Imbued, the Imbued haven't gotten any new crypt options, Powers, or other Imbued specific cards since NoR. It's perfectly normal for a deck/strategy to be tier 1 at some point and tier 2 or 3 or awful at some other point. Turbo Stasis? Probably never tier 1 but a metagame answer to what might have been the only tier 1 deck at the time - Necropotence variants. V:TES may not cycle out cards, but cardpools do change. !Ventrue were not strong back in the day and, then, became mighty off the backs of new crypt options - Blackhorse, Owain, et al. Ravnos were pritnear unplayable before Final Nights. Anyway, the point of tiers is to establish the current metagame. I don't believe tiers are really all that meaningful to this game precisely because there aren't clear 2-4 best decks at any given time. I would say you would have a far better shot at tiering players, i.e. that there are 2-4 best players at a given time rather than 2-4 best decks at a given time. Traveller Card Game

> ICL wrote: > Anyway, the point of tiers is to establish the current metagame. I don't believe tiers are really all that meaningful to this game precisely because there aren't clear 2-4 best decks at any given time. > Identifying and analyzing high level decks that consistently do well is meaningful. Call it top 100 deck types if that makes more sense than tiers.

> Suoli wrote: > > > ICL wrote: > > Anyway, the point of tiers is to establish the current metagame. I don't believe tiers are really all that meaningful to this game precisely because there aren't clear 2-4 best decks at any given time. > > > Identifying and analyzing high level decks that consistently do well is meaningful. Call it top 100 deck types if that makes more sense than tiers. > If you want to make a top 100 without going into the specifics of the decklists, you will have to put even my very famous nana brutal influence and ceze no secret which have probably 5 VP and a GW beetween them... Oh wait, they are allready listed. My mistake...

> Timo wrote: > > > Suoli wrote: > > Identifying and analyzing high level decks that consistently do well is meaningful. Call it top 100 deck types if that makes more sense than tiers. > > > If you want to make a top 100 without going into the specifics of the decklists, you will have to put even my very famous nana brutal influence and ceze no secret which have probably 5 VP and a GW beetween them... > > Oh wait, they are allready listed. My mistake... > You're right, dividing decks into tiers instead of just listing them is much more useful. Except the concept of tiers might cause confusion for those who use it as defined in Mt:G lingo.

For me, the teir a deck sits on is a more personal thing: Tier 1: Decks I am willing to lose with in a tournament. Tier 2: Decks I am willing to lose with in a casual game. Tier 3: Decks I wish I had never pulled cards for in the first place!

> Lemminkäinen wrote: > What are the current tier 1 decks? > > Master decks > Girls deck > Nana Animalism > Anson > > Vote decks > AAA > New Brujah Royalty > > Combat superstar decks > Shalmath with Decapitate > Enkidu with Earth Meld and Psyche! for multirush > Una and variants > > Walls > Weenie Auspex > > Bleed decks > Vignes > Kiasyd > Weenie Dementation > > Ally decks > Warghouls > Shamblers > Nephandi > Nocturns > > Block, bleed and endure > !Ventrue/Tremere Grinder > Euro Brujah > Imbued > > 19 Decks. > > And then there's quite a few who have either been left in the dust a wee bit or haven't quite found their final form and potential. > > Bubbling Under > IC Flurry > Arika > Giovanni Powerbleed > Malk94 > Unnamed > New Tremere > Turbo Nergal > Daughter Vote > Tzimisce Wall > Weenie Presence > > Naturally all of this is just my opinion and experience and I left out on purpose a couple that I consider extremely powerful but which haven't really stabilized into the global consciousness quite yet (Serenna and Anu, for example). > > That said, I'm quite sure that I'm missing a whole lot. Which ones? And are there unworthies in the lot? > This thread seems to have diviated a number of times. This list seems innaccurate. In light of the naqualifiers, won, and nac seeing an assload of us players, and a nice snapshot of the rest of the world as well, i think we have a vague idea of hoe the meta looks. Emphasis on vague though, because games 1 and 2 of day one of the nac, i had Fatima assault rifle combat decks as my prey. Im pretty sure thats not the new trend, just weird coincidence. Anyway, Tupdogs are still a "thing" including a new nephandi dog variant. G2 powerbleed is also very much still a common thing for big tourneys, so nobody should be shocked to be staring down le din tho this year. Why oh why is ventrue lawfirm not listed with votes? I saw several variants of those decks over the last week. Nocturns are of course still popular, but i dont think lasombra who vote are. Black hand lasombra is popular though. To formulate a realistic list of tiers and decks, finals lists would help.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > Anyway, Tupdogs are still a "thing" including a new nephandi dog variant. G2 powerbleed is also very much still a common thing for big tourneys, so nobody should be shocked to be staring down le din tho this year. > > Why oh why is ventrue lawfirm not listed with votes? I saw several variants of those decks over the last week. > Aye, I'll add those two. > Nocturns are of course still popular, but i dont think lasombra who vote are. Black hand lasombra is popular though. > What does Black Hand Lasombra do and what does it look like? > To formulate a realistic list of tiers and decks, finals lists would help. > I agree. In my latest final, my deck certainly wasn't the best around the table. There were two better decks, but they were deemed too dangerous and got ganged up on.

> Lemminkäinen wrote: > What does Black Hand Lasombra do and what does it look like? > You basic stealth bleed/nocturn, with extra black hand untap and Art of Memory thanks to Banjoko, Emeneguildo and Henri Lavenant.

I also have seen versions with Appius Corvius, Saul Meira, and Ermeguildo. Bigger vampire but better abilities.

> Ohlmann wrote: > I also have seen versions with Appius Corvius, Saul Meira, and Ermeguildo. Bigger vampire but better abilities. > Side note: my predator in the second round of LCQ @origins was playing nocturns with Corvus. He cogged corvus. He had corvus stoles with form of corruption. And still won the table........ But yea, meta doesnt stop evolving. Winning a tourney with something unexpected doesnt normally start a meta shift, with the exception of when folks freaked out over turbo parity shift a few years back, but that still wasnt a big lasting thing. But seeing deckw that do persistantly well in toutneys and having lists of finalists decks would help in research for this topic. Alot.

Maybe somebody posted this in this thread, but I don't recall seeing it. I highly recommend reading this blog post from the TTC Master: ttcmaster.blogspot.com/2009/11/ave.html . Don't overlook the comments to the post. Traveller Card Game

Oh, hindsight......... '09. Girls decks have potential......... '13. Girls decks get cards banned...... I still feel that a tier 1 mainstay is !ventrue grinders, chiefly Hugh's stickmen. I think he was winning with them when this blog wqs out, but its hard to deny how versatile the decks are. Carna i havent seen in a year or so, outside of Loughman playing it maybe in casual games. And i seriously havent seen weenie aus in ages, or at least heard anything about it. I hate tupdogs, and hate that they are they only good gargoyle decks, but the fact is Darby is good at playing tupdogs. He can win finals with them, and has. That sort of combat, where you leave a flaming crater where your preys ready region was situated when the game started, takes skill to win with. Alot of it. Darby is tactically inclined to be sucessful with said deck. Others, not so much. I recall turning tupdogs into a wreck of spent !tremere and gargoyles with ease while playing Akunanse no secrets combat. Its all incredibly reliantcon the players with combat, and i can tell easily which combat decks ive played wrong by the time im half way into tourney

Yep, stuff changes, as we all do, right? ttcmaster.blogspot.com/2013 IC Organized play coordinator Please contact me with any OP query using the mail in my profile

Oriaaaaaaaaaaaan!!!!!!

Orian, hows WoW TCG going ? Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

It's dead. Tons of free time, yeah! IC Organized play coordinator Please contact me with any OP query using the mail in my profile

Awesome! We have you all for ourselves. You're going to Stockholm?

If I win french nationals probably because I will be motivated, otherwise I highly doubt it as it is the opposite of Europe for me, and pretty expensive. IC Organized play coordinator Please contact me with any OP query using the mail in my profile