Lilith's Blessing : Propositions for a new text

Hello, As Johannes mentioned it , I am creating the open revision for Lilith's Blessing cardtext update. Current text: Name: Lilith's Blessing Cardtype: Master Cost: 1 pool Master. Put this card in play. As a master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and becomes Bahari. How it's going to work It consists in several steps. 1 - gather propositions. 2 - filter propositions (down to 10). 3 - test propositions. 4 - vote on propositions. 5 - announce result. How to participate It's quite simple. If you want to submit a proposition, send a mail to Rules [at] VampireTheEternalStruggle.com , and set the subject to "[Lilith's Blessing] [Proposition] {a short comment here}" (I can't use <mailto: > here, sadly ) If you want to participate in playtest, send a mail to Rules [at] VampireTheEternalStruggle.com , and set the subject to "[Lilith's Blessing] [Playtest] {your name}" Please also add some information about you: Your name, where you play, how often, and how long you've been playing the game. If you want to submit feedback, send a mail to Rules [at] VampireTheEternalStruggle.com, and set the subject to "[Lilith's Blessing] [Feedback] {your Id}" (don't be afraid, I'll assign you an Id on reception of your Playtest subscription mail). Feedback will be limited to those who subscribed to the Playtest. If you want to submit your vote, send a mail to Rules [at] VampireTheEternalStruggle.com, and set the subject to "[Lilith's Blessing] [Vote] {your id}" (same Id you'll be given when subscribing) A few remarks: Respect the subjects! I have created filters in may mailbox according to these fields. Anything that doesn't exactly match one of them won't be considered valid. It's easier, safer, better and shorter to copy-paste the text above. Step 1 : Anyone can submit. You don't have to participate in the playtest to submit. Step 1 : End date: June 25th. Any propositions received after this date are likely not to be considered in the Step 2. Step 1 : If a proposition's intent is unclear, depending on how much time I have, I will try to reformulate your idea with you. Step 1 : Propositions already posted on forums / internet / blogs / ... haven't been taken into account. Step 1 : Feel free to propose anything. The limits are: changing Lilith's Blessing. Here's an example of something I thought of (but that I don't like): "[Rulebook] Playing a Trifle master card grants you a Trifle Master Phase action. Trifle Master Phase actions can only be used to play Master Cards." (replacing the existing text about Trifles in the Rulebook) Step 1 : Please send the full text of the card. I can assume it'll remain a master card, but if you want to change the cost, or the requirements (etc.) please make it clear. A few guidelines: - The card must remain a Master. - It's a blessing, not a curse. - The discipline search is a mandatory part of the effect. (finding doesn't have to be mandatory) - Here's a short design intent exceprt: "The point is to identify the followers of Lilith (which are the Bahari in WW source material). Lilith, in the source material, rewards those who have suffered." Step 2 : (filtering X results down to 10) will be achieved by me. Don't get angry if you idea of making it Trifle isn't in there. Step 3 : Files will be available for Playtest round June 30th. Playtest is open to everyone, but you must register for playtest to receive the versions to playtest. Step 3 : While testing, feel free to feedback on the version(s) you're testing. Major faults, etc. Step 3 : There is only one round of playtest. No back-and-forth changes. Step 4 : I haven't yet decided which voting system to choose. It is likely that I'll ask you to give a mark to the cards you've tested. Now, whether I'll have you give me a preference order, or something else has yet to be decided. One thing seems clear to me, though - it's unlikely we'll go for "relative majority". Step 4 : Date for vote closure is yet to be announced.

Pascal, I was wondering if you would consider extending the deadline to June 22. A whole mess of VTES players will be in Columbus in a week or so for the NAC and often good ideas come out of discussions at such events. Extending would allow such discussion, would allow those Methuselahs to return home, consider, and submit some ideas that might not otherwise occur to them.

Sure, I'll extend it to allow NAC discussions

Can we have some guidance on what specifically should be fixed? I assume it's the backdoor pool growth.

Sure. Remove master-dependency as much as you can. Here are a couple of my ideas: Switch from "master phase action" to "discard phase action". Switch from 1 MPA to "during your untap phase"

Pascal, Is it supposed to be: 1) An editing of the existing text 2) An overhaul to have similar effects via a different mechanism 3) Consider everything between the artwork and art credit as blank and start with that. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

Send me what you think it should be.

Pascal, if I could offer a suggestion: Take a look at Google Drive. You could create a form, and post a link to the form here. FOR EXAMPLE All the data will be saved as a spreadsheet. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

> Pascal wrote: > Sure. > > Remove master-dependency as much as you can. > > Here are a couple of my ideas: > Switch from "master phase action" to "discard phase action". > Switch from 1 MPA to "during your untap phase" > I´m confused. Is this an answer to "Can we have some guidance on what specifically should be fixed? I assume it's the backdoor pool growth." ? I don´t really understand - isn´t the main problem people have with LB that it´s too strong? ("You get free vamps!" etc) "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

What I get from Pascal's post (and from his earlier idea on trifle MPAs) is that the main requirement is to break the Villein/Lilith combo.

> Ashur wrote: > > > Pascal wrote: > > Sure. > > > > Remove master-dependency as much as you can. > > > > Here are a couple of my ideas: > > Switch from "master phase action" to "discard phase action". > > Switch from 1 MPA to "during your untap phase" > > > I´m confused. Is this an answer to "Can we have some guidance on what specifically should be fixed? I assume it's the backdoor pool growth." ? > > I don´t really understand - isn´t the main problem people have with LB that it´s too strong? ("You get free vamps!" etc) > I agree. I spent too much time thinking about this, and I am under the conclusion that what Pascal posted in that example is a theoretical example of the problem with Lilith's Blessing and some solutions to the theoretical problem. I have a feeling that he does not want to say what he thinks is the problem with Lilith's Blessing, and instead wants us to make suggestions based on what WE think is the problem with the card. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

2 thoughts: 1. I think the main issue is that villein was built to makexlarge caps playable, and liliths was designed to be a difficult to pull off way to fetch a skill card and gain some blood. Im pretty sure the reqson 3 blood is gained isxto offset having to be empty to use it. The problem is the interaction of the two, and not just a 2 card combo, but how easy it is to break a deck (girls deck mostly) with it. If you build a deck based upon using fatties with dem obf aus aus that have standing +1 bleed, you can use lb and villein to make rudolfo, peslrsephone, googly moogly, lazarus james, william builtmore, etc all usable in one deck and theoretically ave 4 8+ caps out. It makes you hard to oust, and is borderline broken. But using nana, cybele, and aksynia to play master solitaire and usimg villein and liliths to get all 3 fatties free with no drawback then being nearly unoustable thanks to bloat, recuraion, and aksynia bounce is difderent. I think liliths and tablets needed erratad. Still do. Using those cards to go crazy with masters is making the game about things other than its premise, minion imteraction. If liliths is returned to mostly being a way to bolt on skill cards by letting you fetch them, i think the problem is solved. If tablets adds the word "minion" between "13" and "cards" i thinks its perfect. 2. Origins is coming. Maybe we should cook up some ideas on lb and hammer them out in some casual games in columbus. Agree on some basics and go from there, then submit data with the card to pascal. Again, just a thought.

Here you can see some ideas the participants of a discussion about LB collected. Look And this is the thread where possible changes were discussed Look 2 Baron of Frankfurt

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > But using nana, cybele, and aksynia to play master solitaire and usimg villein and liliths to get all 3 fatties free with no drawback then being nearly unoustable thanks to bloat, recuraion, and aksynia bounce is difderent. I think liliths and tablets needed erratad. Still do. Using those cards to go crazy with masters is making the game about things other than its premise, minion imteraction. > The card that breaks MMPA decks is Liquidation, not Lilith's. Same amount of pool for no initial cost, minion or combo pieces required. And the drawback is more like a "draw-all-the-cards-you-need-to-win".

> Suoli wrote: > > > ReverendRevolver wrote: > > But using nana, cybele, and aksynia to play master solitaire and usimg villein and liliths to get all 3 fatties free with no drawback then being nearly unoustable thanks to bloat, recuraion, and aksynia bounce is difderent. I think liliths and tablets needed erratad. Still do. Using those cards to go crazy with masters is making the game about things other than its premise, minion imteraction. > > > The card that breaks MMPA decks is Liquidation, not Lilith's. Same amount of pool for no initial cost, minion or combo pieces required. And the drawback is more like a "draw-all-the-cards-you-need-to-win". > yes, i agree ahur liquidation is the broblem, and its fixed by banning liquidation, or makimg it remove some or all its cards from the game. And making ashur say miniin cards. Thats the hands down most intelligent fix, making ashurs perfect. But liliths should come back, since it shouldnt have left and seems to just get banned long enough to make me buold new decks for origins. But yea, liliths was one of 7 combos bad cheese decks used, and not the strongest even.

> Suoli wrote: > The card that breaks MMPA decks is Liquidation, not Lilith's. Same amount of pool for no initial cost, minion or combo pieces required. And the drawback is more like a "draw-all-the-cards-you-need-to-win". > Would the problem card in that case be Anthelios? Using MPAs simply to gain pool and dump cards into your ash heap doesn't seem like much of a problem.

The core of the deck is Ashur + Anthelios, so of course if you remove them the deck is killed. Liquidation and Lillith (and minion tap and villein) make the concept a lot stronger, because it allow you to use your MPA for a lot of pool. So, if you want girl to be unplayable, ban ashur and anthelios. If you want to weaken it, attack lillith and/or liquidation and/or villein.

> BenPeal wrote: > > > Suoli wrote: > > The card that breaks MMPA decks is Liquidation, not Lilith's. Same amount of pool for no initial cost, minion or combo pieces required. And the drawback is more like a "draw-all-the-cards-you-need-to-win". > > > Would the problem card in that case be Anthelios? Using MPAs simply to gain pool and dump cards into your ash heap doesn't seem like much of a problem. > Anthelios and Liquidation are both problematic on their own. I think the whole concept of Ascendance-like cards is awful, whether it's for 1 pool or for 3. > Ohlmann wrote: > Liquidation and Lillith (and minion tap and villein) make the concept a lot stronger, because it allow you to use your MPA for a lot of pool. > I'm not sure Lilith's Blessing has a place in an MMPA deck. How often is it actually correct to play LB rather than another Liquidation?

Anthelios isnt really a problem as much as ashur tablets being able to pick up master cards. I one turn, mmpa decks can play liquidation, use anthelios, and drop a third ashur tablets. That nets 6 pool, lets you tuck 12 cards into your deck, and one to the hand. As has been quite blatantly stated, ashur tablets is a problem. Its a problem because normal decks use it to small advantage, and thats ok. Butcmmpa decks can EASILY crank through 3-4 liwuidations and use ashurs to optimize thier decks. If every deck could devote 3 turns' master phases to gain 6-18 pool while weeding out unwanted cards from thier deck, we wouldnt be playing vtes. Ashur tablets needs to soley target minion cards. Just anthelios isnt enough to make girls decks still as strong. If liliths NEEDED changed, and maybe it did, i just lack real proof of it being a bigger problem than something so easily fixed as ashur tablets, then lets get liliths to require the skill card for the blood to be added, and if mmpa decks are still the big scary, we ban liquidation. Which is, by the way, only actually played in decks that arent what we want to bolster anyway.

I agree with Suoli with having Lil' Blessing in MMPA decks - it just doesn't pull off that many times to profit. You can have one in your deck to gain blood in the end game - but not for early Villein + Lil' Blessing. About Girls deck: that deck is strong because of resilience, which is result of ability go gain lots of pool and Aksinya who helps you to cycle some master cards out of your hand. Aksinya is the key vampire in that deck - she comes out first and will find inner peace first. Also, you need to be a masterful player of people to make Girls deck work. I don't mean to say that Girls deck isn't powerful - it is. But there were lots of MMPA decks who won tournaments before Ashurs and Liquidation and Girls. Issue with a MMPA deck archetype is same sort of issue than OBF+DOM deck. They both exist, are strong and in tournament environment they are really hard to win with. ---- Banging trashcans, breaking windows We'll wake you up tonight We like the good time, we scream and shout And that's what fun's about

> Jussi wrote: > Also, you need to be a masterful player of people to make Girls deck work. > > I don't mean to say that Girls deck isn't powerful - it is. But there were lots of MMPA decks who won tournaments before Ashurs and Liquidation and Girls. Issue with a MMPA deck archetype is same sort of issue than OBF+DOM deck. They both exist, are strong and in tournament environment they are really hard to win with. > Wait a minute now ... If Girls and obf+dom-stealth-bleed are not easy to win with, what decks ARE easy to win with? "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

He is saying they are hard to play, but powerful when play well, not that they are not powerful. (which is not exactly the case for dom/obf, but that's another story ...)

> BenPeal wrote: > Would the problem card in that case be Anthelios? Using MPAs simply to gain pool and dump cards into your ash heap doesn't seem like much of a problem. > I tend to think the problem card is one that can be played more than once per game, gives you pool, and helps only you. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

Anthelios generally also only helps the person who plays it, since unless you have multiple master phase actions, anthelios is pretty useless.

> Klaital wrote: > Anthelios generally also only helps the person who plays it, since unless you have multiple master phase actions, anthelios is pretty useless. > I disagree. Other people tend to fetch their Pentexes and so on, quite annoying. Anyway, I hate Anthelious ALOT, but yet I can´t really see why people start to babble about all these other cards. Pascal has banned LB, and asked for help how to fix it. My take (which I will send in if not convinced not to by anyone): Lilith's Blessing Master [1 Pool] Master. Put this card in play. As a master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library, hand or ash heap for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card and 3 blood and becomes Bahari. (I have no idea if this should be worded in some other way. The point is you need to fetch a skill card to get the blood, and you should be able to fetch it also from hand or ash heap, otherwise I think it´s too crappy.) "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > Anyway, I hate Anthelious ALOT, but yet I can´t really see why people start to babble about all these other cards. Pascal has banned LB, and asked for help how to fix it. > I do agree that, outside very specific contexts, this is not a good place to discuss other cards at length. However, someone said that LB makes MMPA decks good, others disagreed. If a change to LB revolves around the existence of MMPA decks I think it's important to have a discussion about the general dynamics of those decks and how LB fits/doesn't fit into them. > My take (which I will send in if not convinced not to by anyone): > > Lilith's Blessing > Master > [1 Pool] > Master. > Put this card in play. As a master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library, hand or ash heap for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card and 3 blood and becomes Bahari. > > (I have no idea if this should be worded in some other way. The point is you need to fetch a skill card to get the blood, > To tie the Discipline card and the blood in to the same clause, you could replace the last line with "If you do, that vampire becomes Bahari, gains the Discipline card and 3 blood". > and you should be able to fetch it also from hand or ash heap, otherwise I think it´s too crappy.) > Allowing ash heap means you can use a single Agent of Power over and over to satisfy the Discipline requirement. I'm all in favor of more singleton Agent of Powers but somebody else might say that it's more of a slight, probably inconsequential buff than a nerf to LB.

And deck that use Lillith for discipline fetching were possible before (the main example being the Hermana potence deck that won a tournament in Spain), so Lillith Blessing would still have a use with mandatory skill fetching from library. That being said, since the wanted outcome is more minion interaction, maybe Lillith could be triggered by a minion action instead of a master action ? I.E. Lillith would allow you a bloodless vampire to become bahari, fetch a skill card, and gain 3 blood as a +1 stealth action, instead of mandatory hunting. That way, you'd better have something to not die horribly in combat since you could be intercepted. (since it's quite an extreme nerf, maybe it could need some additional bonus, like untapping at end of turn or something. The 0 blood requirement on the other hand is tied to fluff IIRC)

> Jeff wrote: > > > BenPeal wrote: > > Would the problem card in that case be Anthelios? Using MPAs simply to gain pool and dump cards into your ash heap doesn't seem like much of a problem. > > > I tend to think the problem card is one that can be played more than once per game, gives you pool, and helps only you. > Ascendance?

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Pascal, > Is it supposed to be: > 3) Consider everything between the artwork and art credit as blank and start with that. > Actually, I sure hope people don't take this approach! Any that do will be something I'd tend to oppose and campaign for others to oppose as well. Folks, let's not forget that lots of copies exist out in peoples' card collections and the smaller and easier the change is from the original card mechanics, the lass problems it will cause in games. One of the worst, most annoying parts of the existing game are cards like Mind Rape that work completely differently from a lot of the copies of Mind Rape that people use in their decks. Having to explain such changes to newbies (and, "Yes, we're really NOT lying to you - the card you see before you really isn't what Mind Rape does!...") is a distraction the game doesn't need. I understand why some cards need to be changed. And having bothered to ban Lilith's Blessing, the change to bring it back now needs to be sufficient to truly address whatever problems the players have seen in the original card. That said, it helps a lot if the mechanics aren't changed more than necessary for these purposes.

> Suoli wrote: > Allowing ash heap means you can use a single Agent of Power over and over to satisfy the Discipline requirement. > Alright, I agree, that sucks. Back to the drawing board. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Suoli wrote: > To tie the Discipline card and the blood in to the same clause, you could replace the last line with "If you do, that vampire becomes Bahari, gains the Discipline card and 3 blood". > Yupp, that´s a good, but a bit ugly, wording. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

Bahari are Redlisted. This allows for a very real draw back and allows Trophies to be more playable. I am not opposed to making the skill card mandatory, but Bahari being redlisted fits with the cannon and is good for the game. i.e. No need to change card text.

> Wedge wrote: > Bahari are Redlisted. > > This allows for a very real draw back and allows Trophies to be more playable. > I am not opposed to making the skill card mandatory, but Bahari being redlisted fits with the cannon and is good for the game. i.e. No need to change card text. > But then, you can see easily an Inner Circle Red List who keep his full votes. Seem strange. OTOH, making the vampire both indep' and red list seem a bit much. (here and now, it's possible with a titled 11-cap with a skill card, but that's extremely rare, both because you need the skill card and because Red List is not a very good card by itself)

> Wedge wrote: > Bahari are Redlisted. > > This allows for a very real draw back and allows Trophies to be more playable. > I am not opposed to making the skill card mandatory, but Bahari being redlisted fits with the cannon and is good for the game. i.e. No need to change card text. > Agreed, certainly the change I argued for in an earlier thread on Lilith's Blessing and Antheleios here . However, rather than duplicate all of that, I guess I might as well push that suggestion through to Pascal. As noted, no need for any card text change, it simply expands the Bahari trait with a downside (i.e. Red List) and empowers a weak strategy (i.e. Tropies)

I like the simplicity. Id be all in favor of that, or making liliths say, after the line about fetching the skill card" if you chose a discipline card, the vamoire gains the card, 3 blood, and is bahari" Simple is best.

> Wedge wrote: > Bahari are Redlisted. > > This allows for a very real draw back and allows Trophies to be more playable. > I am not opposed to making the skill card mandatory, but Bahari being redlisted fits with the cannon and is good for the game. i.e. No need to change card text. > You'd have to put text saying "Bahari are Redlisted" somewhere, be it on the card or with the addition of a new term to the rulebook. I'm not sure if an addition to the rulebook to cover an issue with one card is warranted - you'd have to get the Rules Team to approve it.

Lilith's Blessing Master 1 pool Put this card in play. While this card is in play your vampires may take a hunt action at +1 stealth to search your library for a Master Discipline which can be played on the vampire. If the action is successful put the Discipline card on the vampire, the vampire gains 1 blood, untaps and is now Infernal. Lilith's Blessing [Revised Version] Master 1 pool Put this card in play. While this card is in play your vampires may take a hunt action at +1 stealth to search your library for a Master Discipline which can be played on the vampire. If the action is successful put the Discipline card on the vampire, the vampire gains 1 blood. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Lilith's Blessing > Master > 1 pool > Put this card in play. While this card is in play your vampires may take a hunt action at +1 stealth to search your library for a Master Discipline which can be played on the vampire. If the action is successful put the Discipline card on the vampire, the vampire gains 1 blood, untaps and is now Infernal. > That would be completely unplayable. Discpline masters are hardly played even without getting one making you infernal.

> Klaital wrote: > > > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > > Lilith's Blessing > > Master > > 1 pool > > Put this card in play. While this card is in play your vampires may take a hunt action at +1 stealth to search your library for a Master Discipline which can be played on the vampire. If the action is successful put the Discipline card on the vampire, the vampire gains 1 blood, untaps and is now Infernal. > > > That would be completely unplayable. Discpline masters are hardly played even without getting one making you infernal. > Klaital, Is that because you see the purpose of Lilith's Blessing being about "Getting 3 blood without an action or pool cost". Because if so, that's entirely the thing I like least about Lilith's. I'd concede to removing the Infernal cost and ditch the untap... but the Infernal is part of the Bahari idea (since Bahari is basically a specialised Infernal in the Lore AFAIK) and the Untap is about making it effectively not cost 1 pool if you are successful. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > > > Klaital wrote: > > > > > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > > > Lilith's Blessing > > > Master > > > 1 pool > > > Put this card in play. While this card is in play your vampires may take a hunt action at +1 stealth to search your library for a Master Discipline which can be played on the vampire. If the action is successful put the Discipline card on the vampire, the vampire gains 1 blood, untaps and is now Infernal. > > > > > > > > That would be completely unplayable. Discpline masters are hardly played even without getting one making you infernal. > > > Klaital, > Is that because you see the purpose of Lilith's Blessing being about "Getting 3 blood without an action or pool cost". Because if so, that's entirely the thing I like least about Lilith's. I'd concede to removing the Infernal cost and ditch the untap... but the Infernal is part of the Bahari idea (since Bahari is basically a specialised Infernal in the Lore AFAIK) and the Untap is about making it effectively not cost 1 pool if you are successful. > Not really...... The lore for lilith is shes not infernal/the wyrm/ serving oblivion/ demon affiliated. Shes not good, she hates caine, but infernalism is entirely different. The lamia were bahari, so is brujah in one gehenna ending. Bahari could easily be redlist. Infernal isnt as cool. Lb may as well stay banned if it makez yiu infernal. It could just give a vamp at half capacity or less a discipline card. Thats its function. Once each game a vampire gets a skill card frm yiur deck. Also, i feel changing as few words as possible is ideal. Rwquire the skill card. Make bahari redlist. Even both. Infernal makes it useless.

If the point is to lessen the pool gain... > Put this card in play. As your first master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and becomes Bahari. > This would not be my first choice, So I will not submit it. or > Put this card in play. As a master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and becomes Bahari. Tap this vampire. >

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > Also, i feel changing as few words as possible is ideal. > Rwquire the skill card. Make bahari redlist. Even both. Infernal makes it useless. > You can't really make Bahari also Redlisted without editing the Rulebook. I doubt that Pascal plans rulebook edits as a result from this process. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > > > ReverendRevolver wrote: > > Also, i feel changing as few words as possible is ideal. > > Rwquire the skill card. Make bahari redlist. Even both. Infernal makes it useless. > > > You can't really make Bahari also Redlisted without editing the Rulebook. I doubt that Pascal plans rulebook edits as a result from this process. > www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?lib=2135

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > > > ReverendRevolver wrote: > > Also, i feel changing as few words as possible is ideal. > > Rwquire the skill card. Make bahari redlist. Even both. Infernal makes it useless. > > > You can't really make Bahari also Redlisted without editing the Rulebook. I doubt that Pascal plans rulebook edits as a result from this process. > Thats fair. I wouldnt change the rulebook for one card. Making the "blessed" vampire get a bahari counter and being redlist as long as it was bahari is simpler. But heres the least edit-intensive fix: Lilith'sBlessing(1pool) Master Put this card into play. As a master phase action, you may tap this card and choose a ready vampire you control with no blood. If that vampire is non-bahari, search your deck for a master: discipline card and place the Discipline card on that vampire, along with 3 blood. That vampire is now Bahari. @ wedge: tapping the vampire makes the card suck again, and agwin, may as well keep it banned. Heres where im at with liliths blessing: Therexneeds to be a card that fetches a discipline and bolts it onto a vampire. If it werexa hunting ground that let any vampire hunt for 3 blood and a skill card to become bahari, like a superld-up lord ashton, it would be just ok. If it said "tap this card and chose a vampire you control who isnt at full capacity. That vampire gains a master discipline card from your library and is now bahari" id be content. If it said " tap this cars and chose a ready non-bahari vampirw you control. Search your deck for a master: discipline card and burn one pool to place it on this vampire. This vampire is now bahari." Id still enjoy it and play it. Or we ban it and print somethinf new. Or we change the hell oit of it and print something new anyway. Regardless, we need a skillcard fetcher. Not because the game wont survive without it, but because itcpreforms a runction to encourage different ways to build decks, and creates new options for building decks. I dont think we need a card that lets any vampire gain 3 blood after being villeined empty without any extra steps. Its not needed, and encourages lazy deckbuilding along with discouraging minion interaction "they jist gaimed nine, why should i bother bleeding. Ill just stay untapped to block" Oh, and girls dexks are, in fact, easy to play. Skill? Win a,major tournament with a deck focusing on appalonious and computer hacking, and everyone will knowxyou're skilled. But last year, during the week of nightmares, one od our local hall of famers was so plastered he barely could walk without gravity trying to claim him for the ground, andxmany players saw this, but he still managed to pilot a girls will find deck to final table. I wont say if he won or not, becausexthat would be too incriminating, but the next day, i recall Bell saying " It just goes to show how overpowered that deck is, if **** could do that with it in the statexhe was in" or something nearly identical to that.

@ ReverendRevolver What happens when you have vampire with no blood in your minion phase?

> Wedge wrote: > @ ReverendRevolver > > What happens when you have vampire with no blood in your minion phase? > Exactly the point, making it a hunt action thats not an action at all is bad buisness. If it made it a hunt action, you could at least theoretically freak drive/firced march/as the crow afterwords. If it taps you, then you're oit a minion a whole turn. Thats rarely a middlexof the road issue, yiu either care not at all because you are doing so good the liliths is a win-more play, orxyou need that minion and tapping is such a bad play that you dont use the card, making it again, useless.

So you would be ok with it being the same, but only gaining one blood?

Other option: Lilith's Blessing Master [1 Pool] Master. Put this card in play. During your discard phase action, you may burn one pool and tap this card, you may search your library or hand for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control. That vampire gains the Discipline card, if any and 3 blood and becomes Bahari. This vampire untaps. Changes: Discard instead of master (but doesn't cost the DPA). Making a Bahari now costs one pool. Vampire don't need to be dry. You don't need to have discipline cards on your deck. (same as now) The vampire untaps.

> Wedge wrote: > > > Put this card in play. As your first master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and become Bahari > > It is not the first time somebody submit something about a "first MPA" or "this player can play only one MPA" or other things along this line of thought. You seems to forget that the rulebook allready say that you can play only one MPA a turn. How will react a new player when encountering a card which do not do what is written on the card and speaking of a first MPA while there should not have a second one (or a third or fourth) I think that the game is allready difficult enough to learn without adding this kind of thing...

> Ashur wrote: > > > Jussi wrote: > > Also, you need to be a masterful player of people to make Girls deck work. > > > > I don't mean to say that Girls deck isn't powerful - it is. But there were lots of MMPA decks who won tournaments before Ashurs and Liquidation and Girls. Issue with a MMPA deck archetype is same sort of issue than OBF+DOM deck. They both exist, are strong and in tournament environment they are really hard to win with. > > > Wait a minute now ... If Girls and obf+dom-stealth-bleed are not easy to win with, what decks ARE easy to win with? > None of the decks are easy to win with - but considering Girls and DOM+OBF, they both have issues: - DOM-OBF would win lots of tournaments if it could. Other players tend to begin against aggressive bleed deck. - Girls have different issues - Deck is rather slow and has little to none pool defense outside of Aksinya. - Both decks have issues with hand jam (well, most of the decks do): If you take out Aksinya or deflect to any other Metusaleah, Girls will have a master jam. Triggering Ashurs won't help much there. OBF+DOM has issues with stealth jam, at some point you just don't pull those bleed enhancers anymore and then OBF+DOM becomes teethless. Edit: Thanks to Ohlmann, who got my point ---- Banging trashcans, breaking windows We'll wake you up tonight We like the good time, we scream and shout And that's what fun's about

I have received a great deal of mails! Thanks to everyone. Proposition desk is not closed, so feel free to submit your idea. A few guidelines: - The card must remain a Master. - It's a blessing, not a curse. - The discipline search is a mandatory part of the effect. (finding doesn't have to be mandatory) - Here's a short design intent exceprt: "The point is to identify the followers of Lilith (which are the Bahari in WW source material). Lilith, in the source material, rewards those who have suffered." Backgroundwisely, Bahari, Red List, and infernals are not related.

> Jussi wrote: > > > Ashur wrote: > > > > > Jussi wrote: > > > Also, you need to be a masterful player of people to make Girls deck work. > > > > > > I don't mean to say that Girls deck isn't powerful - it is. But there were lots of MMPA decks who won tournaments before Ashurs and Liquidation and Girls. Issue with a MMPA deck archetype is same sort of issue than OBF+DOM deck. They both exist, are strong and in tournament environment they are really hard to win with. > > > > > Wait a minute now ... If Girls and obf+dom-stealth-bleed are not easy to win with, what decks ARE easy to win with? > > > None of the decks are easy to win with - but considering Girls and DOM+OBF, they both have issues: > - DOM-OBF would win lots of tournaments if it could. Other players tend to begin against aggressive bleed deck. > - Girls have different issues - Deck is rather slow and has little to none pool defense outside of Aksinya. > - Both decks have issues with hand jam (well, most of the decks do): If you take out Aksinya or deflect to any other Metusaleah, Girls will have a master jam. Triggering Ashurs won't help much there. OBF+DOM has issues with stealth jam, at some point you just don't pull those bleed enhancers anymore and then OBF+DOM becomes teethless. > I don´t really got it. What decks are easier to win with than Girls or obf-dom sb? Sure Girls can be tricky - if you are facing good players, that know how to handle it. If not, you kind of outwin just by playing all your masters and cycling in a smart way. Obf-dom-sb you can put into the hands of almost any newbie/monkey/amoeba and they take a gw in 37 % of the cases just by going forward. This is in MY experience. Decks that are REALLY hard to win with is (IMHO!) rush-decks and weenie-aus. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Pascal wrote: > A few guidelines: > ... [snipped things] ... > - Here's a short design intent exceprt: "The point is to identify the followers of Lilith (which are the Bahari in WW source material). Lilith, in the source material, rewards those who have suffered." > > Backgroundwisely, Bahari, Red List, and infernals are not related. > Okay, so we are sticking to the "We must create a new keyword which may have no future in the game beyond causing Lilith's Blessing to work once." Seems like a long-way around to do something that can be altered to self-limit. 1) Lilith's Blessing runs out of 'blessings to give' (Like Cooler) 2) Lilith's Blessing runs out when your vampires have no Disciplines left to learn 3) Lilith's Blessing runs out when Lilith gets tired of you and ignores you (like Palla Grande) Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Timo wrote: > > > Wedge wrote: > > > > > Put this card in play. As your first master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and become Bahari > > > > > > > > > It is not the first time somebody submit something about a "first MPA" or "this player can play only one MPA" or other things along this line of thought. > > You seems to forget that the rulebook allready say that you can play only one MPA a turn. > > How will react a new player when encountering a card which do not do what is written on the card and speaking of a first MPA while there should not have a second one (or a third or fourth) > > I think that the game is allready difficult enough to learn without adding this kind of thing... > Perhaps you are right, we already a number of cards that do not do what they say (i.e. text changes and errata). Clearly we should do away with any card that breaks the one master phase action per player, least it confuse new players. Really, I am hard pressed to remember a game in which no player used more than the one master at turn as allowed. There are a few (many?) cards that have redundant lines in the text. Is the phrase "your first" when you only have one going to send some new player in a downward spiral? I don't think so. There are many more egregious things in the game that will break them before this.

This is my suggestion to new Lilith’s text. [img size=300]http://www.lackeyccg.com/vtes/vtesrio/Lilith's Blessing V2.jpg[/img] In addition I want to request a revision to a PTO card. This is my suggestion to a new PTO. [img size=300]http://www.lackeyccg.com/vtes/vtesrio/Protect Thine Own V2.jpg[/img] I also have follow the instructions and send a email to Pascal with suggestions. Fernando Cesar - Sydnelson LackeyCCG and OCTGN VtES Mantainer Prince of Rio de Janeiro Powerbase Rio de Janeiro

Even if it's once per game, imho it is still too strong in torpedoing star vampire decks. I'd suggest adding a delay, e.g. "burn this vampire during your next discard phase". This way the victim could Villein/Golconda/lunge one last time or bounce twice/go for suicide blocking, etc. This would incetivise the victim to interact with others or at least a chance to minimize the damage done (transering out another star would still take significant time, so PTO would still be powerful). Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.

I think PTO should be left where it is. Banishment is enough.

Change it so you only gain 1 blood instead of 3. Only 1 blood serverely increases the risk in terms of villein abuse vs 3. It still rewards those that have suffered by preventing a hunt and gaining a skill card. It doesn't become wall paper and would still be useful in decks, but it's unlikely to be so abused or an auto include. Only one character is changed in terms of card text. Ke Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook

> kombainas wrote: > Even if it's once per game, imho it is still too strong in torpedoing star vampire decks. I'd suggest adding a delay, e.g. "burn this vampire during your next discard phase". This way the victim could Villein/Golconda/lunge one last time or bounce twice/go for suicide blocking, etc. This would incetivise the victim to interact with others or at least a chance to minimize the damage done (transering out another star would still take significant time, so PTO would still be powerful). > I agree, but i would add the stipulation of 8 cap or less for inner circle even, on the premise that most IC arent inherently capable of routing out someone as acient andxpowerful as lets say Petaniqua or Eknidu or even someone like the demdemeh. Politics should only go so far. Maybe: " if this vampire is an inner circle member, chose any non cam vampire with capacity less than 9, or any younger non cam vampire with a city title." Wedge, i know theres benefit to not acting to hunt, but being tapped before you can act is incredibly limiting. Sydnelson, i like the card a bit too much, it could be overpowered, but its hands down worth testing. Maybe lb cold trigger afer a combat in which a vampire took 3 or more damage, or 2 or more agg? Rewarding suffering and whatnot, yiu know? Also, if we eant to be fluff nazis, she only taight caine the basic for pot cel obf and such, so tha nec and obt wouldnt be her thing

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > I agree, but i would add the stipulation of 8 cap or less for inner circle even > But what would be his purpose ? Replacing one of your banishment by something more powerful on every deck that have IC ? Making real sure that Camarilla have a superior vote version for every staple vote ?

I thought the topic here was about Lilith's Blessing...

Until such a time as Bahari means something other than you are or aren't, Lilith's Blessing should be limited. If say we had an event that said a non-bahari vampire you control can take a 20 stealth action to burn a Bahari vampire controlled by your predator or prey. This vampire untaps if that action is successful. Okay, to much, how about all non-Bahari vampires can take a 1 stealth action to enter combat with a Bahari vampire. Or more simply all Bahari are Redlist. Can we all agree V:TES is a game of attrition? Pool, taps and blood (only in that it can effect the other two) are what we are battling over. The cards that give blood and are not associated with a tap (minion phase), are limited too one blood, with the exeptions of giants blood (once a game), the coven (share), svawdharma (Ravnos),Papillon (city title) and lord of sernity (-able). All other cards require a tap (minion phase). Free blood is bad. If LB was not put into play and rather played like swadharma it could cost nothing. Limiting it to one blood would work as well. Replacing the word Bahari with Redlist would be fine, even though it allows for exploitation with priority shift, at least its a card slot and action. @ Sydnelson Why untap, you seem sold on something for nothing, either 2 blood or one blood and untap. Untap is huge.

> kombainas wrote: > Even if it's once per game, imho it is still too strong in torpedoing star vampire decks. I'd suggest adding a delay, e.g. "burn this vampire during your next discard phase". This way the victim could Villein/Golconda/lunge one last time or bounce twice/go for suicide blocking, etc. This would incetivise the victim to interact with others or at least a chance to minimize the damage done (transering out another star would still take significant time, so PTO would still be powerful). > It's is just a suggestion, I really like PTO, have a lot of than here waiting your return but agree, is a powerfull card. I have more decks that will perish for PTO than benefit with it but we can made some adjustment to try take it back, just a playtest with this adjustments can be sure the card is or not overpower. The limitations to use only one per game, only usable as a blood hunt referendun (vampires can play modifiers like awe, bewitching, voter or reactions like kindred coercio) and younger vampires wll reduce alot the usage and the overpower of that card. Maybe with few more changes like below 10 instead younger vampire and a pool cost instead a blood cost can finnaly bring this card back to business. I see other comments about PTO, I want to reply all of then but the focus here is Lilith Bleesing. In future if Rule Team consider revise PTO we can talk about it. > ReverendRevolver wrote: > Sydnelson, i like the card a bit too much, it could be overpowered, but its hands down worth testing. > As I said above we need test those changes and see what happens. > Wedge wrote: > @ Sydnelson > > Why untap, you seem sold on something for nothing, either 2 blood or one blood and untap. Untap is huge. > When I see this card I see a way to a vampire become a Bahari, the discpline and blood gain is secondary. Due that the vampire that became a Bahari need to be untapped to use all Bahari stuff in the same, like became anarch with Go Anarch and Laibon with Mozambique Allure. The problem is we do not have any Bahari card to use and look for nexts upcoming expansions we do not have this kind of card so soon. Then we look for other 2 big benefits of Lilith thats is gain blood and a discipline card (soul gem turbo decks really like that!). In my opinion if vampire cant act in the same turn he become a Bahari this game mecanics will be very slow and complicate to used and that card will be used only for secondary effects. Fernando Cesar - Sydnelson LackeyCCG and OCTGN VtES Mantainer Prince of Rio de Janeiro Powerbase Rio de Janeiro

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > > > Wedge wrote: > > @ ReverendRevolver > > > > What happens when you have vampire with no blood in your minion phase? > > > Exactly the point, making it a hunt action thats not an action at all is bad buisness. If it made it a hunt action, you could at least theoretically freak drive/firced march/as the crow afterwords. If it taps you, then you're oit a minion a whole turn. Thats rarely a middlexof the road issue, yiu either care not at all because you are doing so good the liliths is a win-more play, orxyou need that minion and tapping is such a bad play that you dont use the card, making it again, useless. > Um, wow! Some of us might think that the ability to bypass being blocked and punched into torpor by, say, Frederick the Weak on a Sports Bike would be more better than the chance to possibly Freak Drive and be forced to hunt again. That is certainly why I find this game so challenging!

> Pascal wrote: > I have received a great deal of mails! Thanks to everyone. > Proposition desk is not closed, so feel free to submit your idea. > If the problem with the card is ONLY that it's too easy to trigger with a Villein, then fixes should get straight to the point: Lilith's Blessing Master, cost 1 Pool Put this card in play. As a master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library for a Master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who began the master phase with no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and become Bahari. Of course, this will catch vampires who were emptied during the master phase bny other means than Villein cards - for instance, by removing blood via Blood Doll. If players are OK with the use of other means, then the second sentence of card text can read, "As a master phase action, you may tap this card to search library for a Master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bhahari vampire you control who has no blood and has not had a Villein card played on him during the current turn." For a specific problem, it's simplest to make a specific fix.

And it's also a good way to have to do another fix next year.

> When I see this card I see a way to a vampire become a Bahari, the discpline and blood gain is secondary. > Bullexcrement, if that were the case it would be in line with cards that make you anarch or black hand or even laibon. As the card is now or what you suggest, Bahari can only be a negative to be balance. While it is true Go Anarch and Mozambique Allure untap you, they are both action cards. Twilight Camp and Seattle Committee are a better starting point for Lilith's Blessing, if Bahari was the reason and not blood gain/skill card. It is all about the secondary effects. You neither are or aren't Bahari. That is all.

I agree completely with Wedge. If we aren't going to see a huge pile of Bahari related cards (yay YET another mechanic that will probably go nowhere compared with... Bleed & Vote & Flick) that create viable Tier 1 Decks then Lilith's Blessing will be played for: 1) Fetching disciplines 2) 3 free blood once per minion The game already has a mechanic for adding in 'free blood' it's called Hunting. The only comparable hunts to Lilith's Blessing are Abactor , Vulture's Buffet and Ghost-Eater . These are actions. Why should Lilith's Blessing NOT be an action? Fetching a Discipline is a limited skill, usually on a vampire's text like Lord Ashton. Again, there are very few cards that allow for Discipline searching (most of them are 'new minions'). Searching for a discipline should be just like Lord Ashton's text... requiring an action. I can't see a reason why this card shouldn't provide a Hunt Action and a Discipline. Plus, if 'Bahari' is going to end up being something that exists only to stop Lilith's Blessing work twice, then we can do the same thing by forcing the discipline card to be put on the minion. Either the Library will contain a wide number of disciplines OR it will work at most twice because of the limit of Discipline cards to be put on when a Superior discipline is on a minion. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Ohlmann wrote: > And it's also a good way to have to do another fix next year. > That's why I said: > > fredsct wrote: > If the problem with the card is ONLY that it's too easy to trigger with a Villein. > You're only going to need to do another fix next year if there's another problem with the card. Do you see any other problem? If so, you should say what that is so people can 1) respond to your opinion about it if they disagree; or 2) make an effective new design that addresses it. I agree: banning and reinserting a card over and over is very bad.

> fredsct wrote: > For a specific problem, it's simplest to make a specific fix. > I snipped it, but your suggested card text defines Villein as broken -- just like Into Thin Air defines "itself+Lost In Crowds" as broken -- so why not leave Lilith's alone at that point, and just fix (or ban) Villein? Note that I don't agree with this AT ALL but that's what you're doing by saying "This card prohibits this other card over here." I see Lilith's as being 5% of the problem and Villein as 95%, so I dislike this entire thread. But I appreciate Pascal's willingness to entertain us with bread and circuses. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> KevinM wrote: > ...your suggested card text defines Villein as broken -- just like Into Thin Air defines "itself+Lost In Crowds" as broken > I disagree. It defines the combination of the effects of the two cards taken together as broken based on the synergestic effects of the combination. For example, given the effects of Vox Domini, no one ought to mind a card like: Vox Mortis Only usable during the referendum of a political action. Not usable on a referendum that is automatically passes. 100 votes are cast against the referendum. Each Methuselah may play only one Vox Mortus OR one Vox Domini per game. The problem with Vox Mortis which would probably get it banned, however, is the existance of Elder Kindred Network. Without EKN, Vox Mortis is perfectly fine, I think. So which is the problem: Vox Mortis or EKN? IMO, the synergistic effects of two cards combined can be a problem where either single card is not necessarily a problem. For my part, I don't even see the synergy between LB and Villein to be a problem, let alone either card by itself. But, as you point out, here we are. I just think the discussion of "What's the problem?" helps answer the question of "What's the solution?" Whether you agree with my opinion of synergic effects or not, I think that point is a good contribution.

Kevin, it painful, but i have to agree with you that villein creates like 489 problems by itself, and liliths blessing is only onexof those problems. But i also have to admit that villein enables many decks. I feel lb without villein enables "fairer" decks than villein without lb, but both got printed. Juggernaut, im not entirely disagreeing with you, and if lb enabled a hunt action adding a discipline, we could kill bahari from thexrules, and keep blessing away from bahari, justclike path if lilith. But maybe another angle. If the prerequesit is "non-bahari, non-ready vampire who is not at full capacity" rewarding those who have suffered. "Search your library for a master dicipline card and place it on that vampire. Move that vampire to your ready region, and he or she may burn one blood to untap." We have a card not farming pool, not really useful with villein, and needs setup, or shitty luck in absence of that. Id say, if anything, bringing a minion above ground once a game per minion is an entirely differentcproblem. Maybe tack on a pool cost, make them redlist oncexthey pop back up, and we havexa new avenue. But honestly, id rather just have a card that taps and adds a skill card.

I am not sure why there is an all fired rush to bring this card back into the fold. What pressing need is there for this card to even exist in the game? The reason it was affecting the tournament scene is the 3 blood gain for a relatively easy to attain stipulation, Villein (which made it even less difficult) or no. If people truly are interested in its 'fetch a skill card' effect then their deck is most likely using multiple copies of the same M:Discipline card and every copy of LB put into the deck can just be other copies of that M:D card. Sure, it will have its limited uses otherwise but that's the gist. With this precedent set, however, why don't we just ban Ashur's Tablets and thinktank a way to bring that one back afterwards.

> Robert wrote: > I am not sure why there is an all fired rush to bring this card back into the fold. What pressing need is there for this card to even exist in the game? The reason it was affecting the tournament scene is the 3 blood gain for a relatively easy to attain stipulation, Villein (which made it even less difficult) or no. If people truly are interested in its 'fetch a skill card' effect then their deck is most likely using multiple copies of the same M:Discipline card and every copy of LB put into the deck can just be other copies of that M:D card. Sure, it will have its limited uses otherwise but that's the gist. > > With this precedent set, however, why don't we just ban Ashur's Tablets and thinktank a way to bring that one back afterwards. > Ashur Tablets doesnt need banned, its change is so easy no fanfare is required I dont have the card in front of me, and dont feel like typimg it all out amyway, but ive been saying this simce last year atcleast: Between "13" and "cards" on the text of ashur tablets, insert the word "minion" . Hell, if i could write small enough, id vulunteer to do ^ "Minion" On any copy someone brought me once the card is legally erratad. Liliths gwts to fetch the card, so if you use more than one differwnt skill, its handy. It also had thexbenefit lacking in multiple skill cards where if you run 2 lb and 3 skills, one lb lets you get all 3 skills, while 5 skill cards makes yiu wait to draw.....

> Pascal wrote: > - Here's a short design intent exceprt: "The point is to identify the followers of Lilith (which are the Bahari in WW source material). Lilith, in the source material, rewards those who have suffered." > Suffering, eh? Put this card in play. As a master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire in torpor you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and becomes Bahari. Okay, that's not entirely serious, but are there any good options that make it somewhat harder for the vampire to qualify for LB in the first place - but still keep it to be a good effect that's worth aiming for? For example: Put this card in play. When a combat finishes in which a non-Bahari vampire you control was a participant, and that vampire was punched about a bit in some fashion to be determined, tap this card to... (Actually, the torpor version might not be totally awful if you move using it to your discard phase too. (Mummify-a-go-go!) (Mmm.. brackets.))

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > > Ashur Tablets doesnt need banned, its change is so easy no fanfare is required > You agree that it needs a change, got it. So you must also realize that LB and Liquidation on their own (or together) are not making MMPA decks so much stronger than they have been all ready. > ReverendRevolver wrote: > > Liliths gwts to fetch the card, so if you use more than one differwnt skill, its handy. It also had thexbenefit lacking in multiple skill cards where if you run 2 lb and 3 skills, one lb lets you get all 3 skills, while 5 skill cards makes yiu wait to draw..... > Lilith's is only getting you one skill card per minion, so if the deck in question is that convoluted then good luck. You also seem to think that 5 skill cards are harder to draw than 2 LB's that make you pay a pool and wait at least one more turn to use. It should have another plus to it then, maybe also giving the minion 3 blood or something useful like that.

> Robert wrote: > Lilith's is only getting you one skill card per minion, so if the deck in question is that convoluted then good luck. You also seem to think that 5 skill cards are harder to draw than 2 LB's that make you pay a pool and wait at least one more turn to use. It should have another plus to it then, maybe also giving the minion 3 blood or something useful like that. > I had one deck where I used Lilith's to cover three separate missing skills needed for five different minions, the exact one needed differing based on the minions I happened to bring out that game. LB worked superbly for that. I'll grant you, you're right to say there's an all-or-nothing quality to drawing your first Lilith's Blessing instead of getting stair-stepped through each of the different skill cards I would need to draw in its absense. But one of the really irritating parts of deck games is the way they always seem to deny you the thing that turns out to be exactly relevant in many of your games. So for a deck that may need different skills based on the opposition and the crypt you draw, it was a nice tool. Whether that made an otherwise bad deck tournament-competitive is kind of iffy, I'll admit. But it sure made the deck a whole lot more fun for me to play. I took it apart last month after LB got banned.

Personally, i feel strongly lb is the LEAST problematic card playex in girls decks, and that Aksynia in those decks breaks Aksynia. Also, ashur tablets is a huge problem, with an easy fix. I like the function of liliths blessing, and having it out before minions even. I dont think it was that broken, but we will see......

I really like the skill card fetching element of Lilith's, but I think that three blood is too strong a combo with Villein. What if it tapped a vampire and gave them three blood with their skill card? Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

I'd like to suggest this idea. Lilith Blessing Cardtype: Master Cost: 1 pool Master. Put this card in play. As a out-of-turn master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and becomes Bahari. - as out-of-turn, it restricts you from using othe out-of-turn masters - as out-of-turn, it becomes 1st master - as out-of-turn, it restricts (i hope) to play it during your turn - it creates some funny combo with Agent of Power: get any discipline for full opponents' turn and your full turn

And you cannot Villein! If you fully Villein, you would need to hunt and would end up with blood by default. Nice nerf for the card! Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.

highly original idea to make LB an out-of-turn master! but being able to do this in combat, or after playing a deflection or strix with a vampire's last blood, seems to replace one kind of (IMO controllable) craziness with another one that could freak even more... changes for example the playability of Corpse Minion etc in ways that are hard to predict-

highly original idea to make LB an out-of-turn master! but being able to do this in combat, or after playing a deflection or strix with a vampire's last blood, seems to replace one kind of (IMO controllable) craziness with another one that could freak even more... changes for example the playability of 'Corpse minion' etc in ways that are hard to predict-

> porphyrion wrote: > highly original idea to make LB an out-of-turn master! but being able to do this in combat, or after playing a deflection or strix with a vampire's last blood, seems to replace one kind of (IMO controllable) craziness with another one > Make it not usable during an action, like Heidelberg.

Or take Pascal suggestion of using it in the discard phase instead of the master phase.

> Ohlmann wrote: > Or take Pascal suggestion of using it in the discard phase instead of the master phase. > Either is fine, seem balanced.

> jAvel wrote: > I'd like to suggest this idea. > > Lilith Blessing > Cardtype: Master > Cost: 1 pool > Master. Put this card in play. As a out-of-turn master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and becomes Bahari. > > - as out-of-turn, it restricts you from using othe out-of-turn masters > - as out-of-turn, it becomes 1st master > - as out-of-turn, it restricts (i hope) to play it during your turn > - it creates some funny combo with Agent of Power: get any discipline for full opponents' turn and your full turn > You would lose the ability to do untap phase manipulations to remove all blood from the minion. And you would also lose mandatory untap phase effects (e.g. The Rack, Palatial Estate) that would tend to prevent the minion from being empty by the beginning of master phase. Not complaining. Just observing.

Ok. No need for out of master turn. This idea is too harsh. Just make: ...master phace action to gain 2 blood and a master discipline card on a *ready* vampire you control who is empty of blood since your last discard phase. I am death. Paul Kersey, Death Wish

> Charles_Bronson wrote: > who is empty of blood since your last discard phase. > I am not sold on this, because it's too much bookkeeping for me. I would as much like that it's done on untap phase, so you have to have your vampire empty during other player turn, or that it's somehow an action, so other people can intercept it. Even if it end up not consuming a master phase action, since having something risky to use for (relatively) big reward seem more balanced than using a stable ressource for (relatively) big reward.

I have an idea or two that might work - mailed one to Pascal even - but I think the best thing to do is leave it banned.

> Dorrinal wrote: > I have an idea or two that might work - mailed one to Pascal even - but I think the best thing to do is leave it banned. > Honestly, im gonna br really pissed is it comes back and still lets you play free vampires. I havent had time to test new dexks forxthe NAC, and the one ive had solid for 2 years and nevercran ina big tourney used lb to bolt tham onto the allstar. I rebuilt it without tham, and really is was only 12 cards i changed, but thats the whole scary package when it blocks, and i havent had time to test the new version. I think if you just change the last line(s) of lb to " move that discipline card, if any, to that vampire along with UP TO THREE BLOOD FROM YOUR POOL. That vampire is now Bahari." It would be ok. But seriously, Ashur needs that tiny fix carried out. I think Aksynia could be curtailed if, lets say touch of clarity and hide the mind could counter her ability as well as thier respective targets. But maybe thats too much. Ill be happy ordering enough touch of clarity to use in decks ever. I own one. I canceled a voter cap in a tourney with my old anatole wall once. Only time in not casual ive drawn and played it..... For the record, im sure a cubic assload of good ideas have been sent to pascal already, and more will follow. Heres hoping some evil genious or another saves the card(Darby, im looking at you...... )

Hmm. Master. Put this card in play. As a master phase action, During your untap phase, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and becomes Bahari, and you skip your master phase. I think it covers some of the same ground as, for example, master: OOT type arrangements, with slightly fewer timing and rule headaches, and less book-keeping.

Skipping your master phase is to big a cost. It means you can't use master phase effect like blood doll path of evil revelation or other stuff...

And it allow weak but strange combo with things like Brujah Debate, Ex Nihilo, or Snipe Hunt. Certainly not game-breaking, but annoying.

> Timo wrote: > Skipping your master phase is to big a cost. It means you can't use master phase effect like blood doll path of evil revelation or other stuff... > Yep. Thus meaning that for some decks it's good, some decks it's not so good, in some circumstances using it is good, some circumstances it's bad. But the effect can remain quite strong for decks that want to make use of it, without it being trivial to do so. That's pretty much what I'd want out of an errata-ed version.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > Hmm. > > Master. Put this card in play. As a master phase action, During your untap phase, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and becomes Bahari, and you skip your master phase. > > I think it covers some of the same ground as, for example, master: OOT type arrangements, with slightly fewer timing and rule headaches, and less book-keeping. > To me, it would be just a whole lot simpler if you made it an OOT Master that may only be used during your own untap phase. Causing it to skip your master phase sounds like a big magnet for future rules complexity and maybe some unintended consequences, if there are any cards out there that have negative effects which require resolution during the master phase.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > Heres hoping some evil genious or another saves the card(Darby, im looking at you...... ) > Thanks for having faith, however unfounded it might be. I have been lurking (to simply observe the "design by committee effort) but seem to have been called out. Here's what I can offer. FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION: It's crucial to define, gain consensus and clearly state the existing problem BEFORE proposing solutions, so the right bits can be fixed. I believe the issues with Lilith's Blessing were fourfold: simplicity, scale, timing, and persistence. SIMPLICITY: Villein for everything and Bless became the only correct answer for newly influenced minions. It removed what should have been interesting decision-making. SCALE: It added too many blood counters to the table. One player in our group often created 2-3 times more blood than Giant's Blood using only LB. Yes, that one player AVERAGED almost 20 additional blood per game throughout our last day-long playing session. And yes, that scale alone did create additional VP. If Giant's Blood is classified as overpowered, what does that make LB in decks made to exploit it? TIMING: The effect existing in the Master phase leverages Villein's trifle effect too efficiently (regardless of number of MPA) PERSISTENCE: Once installed, it remained accessible forever (ultimately contributing to scale). In my mind, that leads to "what can I do with Bahari keywords and skill grafting without contributing to runaway blood creation?" The best course of action might be to parallel an existing set of mechanics. What if LB looked something like Twilight Camp? And here, despite my earlier rant on consensus-building, I'll offer up a solution that addresses the (admittedly Darby-centric) problem definition above. Name: Lilith's Blessing Cardtype: Master Cost: 1 pool Master. Put this card in play with 3 blood. During your untap phase, you may tap this card to choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control. That vampire becomes Bahari. Search your library for a Master: Discipline card. Move up to 3 blood from this card and that Discipline to the chosen vampire. Burn this card when it has no counters. For templating purposes, I used Jungle Hunting Ground, which actually gains blood, avoiding any "counter to blood" conversion language. The "Search your......chosen vmapire" language is templated from Path of Death and the Soul. So, this proposal - gets away from any Villein-Bless (or Vessel-Bless) interaction and keeps the blood gain in the same window as Hunting Grounds or Jake Washington - timing which seems to be currently well-balanced. - doesn't require an empty vampire, so it can still be done on new minions (after the same waiting period we see with the current LB). You could get the discipline and add one more blood if you want. - eliminates scale issues - it's post-cost effect is the same as Svadharma or the Coven (the turn it's played) and if used that way, it's gone. - can remain permanently accessible if you're not harvesting blood, empowering use of "Bahari" and discipline grafting. - doesn't create any option to use the effect in a combat or response to something like Shattering Crescendo, which I would see as a huge problem (e.g., effectively creating 3 damage prevention for any vampire) - it remains playable multiple players. Pascal has seen this proposal, since I submitted as a random voice in the design-by-committee deluge B-) Darby.

> TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote: > FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION: It's crucial to define, gain consensus and clearly state the existing problem BEFORE proposing solutions, so the right bits can be fixed... > This is the most important thing anyone has ever said here and needs to be stickied at the top of the card suggestion forum.

> Dorrinal wrote: > > > TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote: > > FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION: It's crucial to define, gain consensus and clearly state the existing problem BEFORE proposing solutions, so the right bits can be fixed... > > > This is the most important thing anyone has ever said here and needs to be stickied at the top of the card suggestion forum. > Actually, im cool stickying this and closing the thread. I may try testing Darbys idea, but it so far it seems to be the best solution typed in this thread. I vote for that.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > Actually, im cool stickying this and closing the thread. I may try testing Darbys idea, but it so far it seems to be the best solution typed in this thread. I vote for that. > Closing the thread? Better idea: leave the thread open. If Darby's proposal proves so tremendously popular that no further significant discussion is required, that will be proved by the lack of further discussion.

> This is the most important thing anyone has ever said here and needs to be stickied at the top of the card suggestion forum. > Discussion about what exactly is wrong with LB raged for quite a while. Pascal did not make any official statement (ir I missed it) about the exact reason... Darby just made a (quite) educated guess. However, in-depth analysis was great, did enjoy it! Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.

> kombainas wrote: > > > This is the most important thing anyone has ever said here and needs to be stickied at the top of the card suggestion forum. > > > Discussion about what exactly is wrong with LB raged for quite a while. Pascal did not make any official statement (ir I missed it) about the exact reason... Darby just made a (quite) educated guess. > > However, in-depth analysis was great, did enjoy it! > Hes good at that. And analyzing the game. I think pascal kept quiet so this whole community acid testccould be tried as scientifically as possble, without adding more variables. I think we all agree that easily running 4 11 caps and paying only 1 pool total for them is an issue. Im not sure of any other problems wotlrth bwnning the card....

text:Name: Lilith's BlessingCardtype: MasterCost: 1 poolMaster. Put this card in play. As a master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and becomes Bahari Preposed change:- text:Name: Lilith's BlessingCardtype: MasterCost: 1 poolMaster. Put this card in play. As a master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and becomes Bahari. This card can not be used before or after with another master that would give you Pool this turn. A possible solution to bloat abuse. Sorry about the terrible wording, of course It could be worded clearer & more specific.

> koko wrote: > text:Name: Lilith's BlessingCardtype: MasterCost: 1 poolMaster. Put this card in play. As a master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and becomes Bahari > > Preposed change:- > text:Name: Lilith's BlessingCardtype: MasterCost: 1 poolMaster. Put this card in play. As a master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and becomes Bahari. This card can not be used before or after with another master that would give you Pool this turn. > > A possible solution to bloat abuse. Sorry about the terrible wording, of course It could be worded clearer & more specific. > Similar idea to other proposals, its not bad, just worded clunkily. It still works off of vessel n blood doll, so neat. Id rather see the skill mandatory though.

I can also see how adding "skill mandatory" may address mid/large cap vamps with all superior disciplines bloating with LB in addition with other masters.

Preposed change:- text:Name: Lilith's BlessingCardtype: MasterCost: 1 poolMaster. Put this card in play. As a master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and becomes Bahari. You cannot gain pool this turn. It's a hard nerf but I don't like to beat around the bush. Besides, the original effect is still VERY powerful. The consequences should reflect that power.

I don't feel it like a nerf at all. You can play Villein, gain all the pool you need for the turn, then Lillith.

You're right. How's this? Name: Lilith's Blessing Cardtype: MasterCost: 1 pool Master Put this card in play. As a master phase action,, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and becomes Bahari. During your discard phase, if more than 1 master phase action or card was used, you lose 3 pool. Wording needs work but you get the idea. How's that?

> KoKo wrote: > During your discard phase, if more than 1 master phase action or card was used, you lose 3 pool. > I would change that to : > KoKo wrote: > At the end of your master phase, if you used more than one master phase action, you lose 3 pool. > That way, if someone play an OOT master, you won't lose 3 pool. I kind of like the idea, but I don't have a strong opinion for that.

> KoKo wrote: > You're right. How's this? > > Name: Lilith's Blessing > Cardtype: MasterCost: 1 pool > Master > Put this card in play. As a master phase action,, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and becomes Bahari. During your discard phase, if more than 1 master phase action or card was used, you lose 3 pool. > > Wording needs work but you get the idea. > > How's that? > As worded, the burning 3 pool is not contingent on using Lilith's Blessing, so would apply to all your master phases once this card is in play. It would also mean you would burn 3 pool whenever anyone plays a Sudden or Wash on one of your master cards.

What if it didn't stick around, and was only a one-shot effect? Something like: Lilith's Blessing 1 Pool Master. Put this card in play. As a master phase action, you may tap this card to Search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and becomes Bahari. So, you're paying a card, a pool and master phase action to give 3 blood to an empty vampire one time.

Don't forget the opportunity cost! All in all, this looks elegant and decreases the text-load. Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.

Here is a version that weakens the blood gain yet strengthens the discipline-fetching ability (changes are in red): Name: Lilith's Blessing Cardtype: Master Cost: 1 pool Master. Trifle. Put this card in play. As a master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library, hand, and ash heap for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 1 blood and becomes Bahari.

Notice that a single Agent of Power can be used each turn with this version. It's far from being problematic given that there is no requirement of discipline card, but it's an interesting angle (for example, Hermana gaining sup' sanguinis for a turn)

I notice that all of the recent variations of this card are not doing anything to maintain or increase minion interactions. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > I notice that all of the recent variations of this card are not doing anything to maintain or increase minion interactions. > text:Name: Lilith's BlessingCardtype: MasterCost: 1 pool Master. Put this card in play. As a master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and becomes Bahari Preposed change:- text:Name: Lilith's BlessingCardtype: MasterCost: 1 pool Master. Put this card in play. As a master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and becomes Bahari. This card can not be used in combination with another master that would give you Pool this turn. If able this Vampire must take an action this turn. This Vampire can not hunt this turn. It could be worded clearer & more specific, however Increasing requirements to use this Master may stop players abusing this card.

> If able this Vampire must take an action this turn. This Vampire can not hunt this turn. > > It could be worded clearer & more specific, however Increasing requirements to use this Master may stop players abusing this card. > This is so much text for such a cornercase drawback. However, this would make it a curse, not a blessing. Perhaps a simple steal/burn clause would work. Something like any minion can burn/steal this card as a D action. If it is successful, inflict 1 damage to every bahari vampire. Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.

text:Name: Lilith's BlessingCardtype: MasterCost: 0 pool Master. Put this card in play. As a master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 1blood and becomes Bahari My last effort does read a little like a curse. However I think the "steal/burn clause" reads like a curse also. Three blessing No pool cost, 1 free blood, and possibility to gain a Discipline card.

Well, burn/steal clause of whatever effect, is not a curse strictly speaking, it is a way to remove blessing (ala fall from grace) or becoming a new favourite. Stealing/burning it should probably cost a pool/blood or more, but what I somewhat like is punishing bahari if they let this to happen. Imagine someone bloating with highcaps and LB with a spray of obediences. You don't go after the guys, you go after LB, bam-bam, thank you mam, bleed for 1+ until any poolgain gotten from abusing LB goes to influencing a new vampire. Obedience won't help if you get past fatties and you could pass LB around without ever creating bahari of your own as some sort of desecration. Everything without any cards, but LB and some light stealth to get past blockers for the initial stealing. You would have lots of minion interactions (constant thievery, temptation to become bahari yourself and risk being punished for that and 3 player interactions). Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.

What if were more targeted to a specific type of deck? Lilith's Blessing 1 Pool Master. Put this card in play. As a master phase action, you may tap this card to Search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and becomes Bahari. This vampire must enter combat with a minion controlled by your predator as a 0 stealth action this turn.

It seem a good enough idea to be tested, but I fear a bit that it's too good, since for some deck it's add PB:Luanda to the effect of Lillith. Most combat deck won't become unstoppable juggernaut for that, but I kind of fear what an Hermana Maior can do with that, for example. If the 'enter combat' prove too exploitable, it may be a bleed limited to 1 or 2, ignoring excess. That way, Lillith blessing become a kind of better Hungry Coyote, since instead of a mandatory hunt for 1, you gain 3 blood and bleed for 1. And more importantly, your mandatory action is done with blood on you, so it's a lot less risky. Or even simply, instead of requiring MPA action, Lillith blessing allow your empty vampire to hunt for 3 and became Bahari. It could conceivably be allowed even to Bahari, since empty hunt is already harsh and dangerous. It would be a niche card, but that give awesome effect when it work.

> Adonai wrote: > What if were more targeted to a specific type of deck? > > Lilith's Blessing > 1 Pool > Master. > Put this card in play. As a master phase action, you may tap this card to Search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and becomes Bahari. This vampire must enter combat with a minion controlled by your predator as a 0 stealth action this turn. > I do like this version very much, I must declare I do enjoy playing combat decks. However I think this may possibly make weenie rush decks a little over powered. 1st (Extra hunt option) text:Name: Lilith's BlessingCardtype: MasterCost: 1 pool Master. Put this card in play. As a master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and becomes Bahari. The choosen vampire may choose to hunt by stealing a blood from their prey or predator as a +1 stealth action. 2nd Version:- (Hunt variation) text:Name: Lilith's BlessingCardtype: MasterCost: 1 pool Master. Put this card in play. As a master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and becomes Bahari. This chosen vampire does not hunt as normal this turn. Hunt by stealing a blood from your prey or predator as a +1 stealth action. 3rd Version:- (Addition blood gain when hunting this turn) text:Name: Lilith's BlessingCardtype: MasterCost: 1 pool Master. Put this card in play. As a master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 1 blood and becomes Bahari. If this chosen vampire successfully hunts this turn, he or she gains 1 additional blood. I think this would increase interaction with other minions, possibly blocking the hunt. Also possibly being able to gain 3 blood on one vampire through different blood gain windows I feel would be more balanced. Through other options in your turn (x from master and x from hunting (and gaining discipline card). This prevents the original text being so exploited (hopefully) when used with other combos such as:- Villein, Hunting Grounds, Jake Washington ect..

It seems I may be too late to suggest a change, but here is my thought on a revision of the card that (in my view) protects the most interesting part of the card and culls much of the abuse: Lilith's Blessing Type: Master Cost: 1 pool Master. Put this card in play. As a master phase action, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and becomes Bahari. Burn Lilith's Blessing if you fail to find a Discipline card. I think this fix stops the widest applications of bloating, unless you are willing to pack your library with discipline cards. Also, it supports my slight bias to encourage the use of discipline cards to increase variety. Rubia

Right, I think I've got enough material to produce a dozen of valid cards (some of them might still have some questions marks - should "this" happen during the untap phase? during the discard phase? etc.) Feel free to send me an email to participate in the playtest (see the first message). Thanks, Pascal

> Pascal wrote: > Right, I think I've got enough material to produce a dozen of valid cards (some of them might still have some questions marks - should "this" happen during the untap phase? during the discard phase? etc.) > > Feel free to send me an email to participate in the playtest (see the first message). > > Thanks, > Pascal > Im not sure if anyone else has said this, but myself and other members of the community appreciate tremendous extra workload you volunteered for with this project. Its not something that you, as the rules team director, had to do, and i get the reason behind this and the pressures from supporters and opposers of the liliths blessing concept, and im impressed at how much work you accepted to yourself just to test try a concept to make folks who think they got ignored get a shot. I thougjt the old way was ok, but thank you for volunteering this much effort outside of your normal responsabilities.

> Pascal wrote: > Right, I think I've got enough material to produce a dozen of valid cards (some of them might still have some questions marks - should "this" happen during the untap phase? during the discard phase? etc.) > > Feel free to send me an email to participate in the playtest (see the first message). > > Thanks, > Pascal > I was wondering where is the state of his project ? Does an officiel new Lilith's Blessing exists waiting for reprint ?

An unofficial version is ready. It's waiting for testing and reprints. I would suggest to those who want to playtest some revised cards to contact Hugh (Squidalot).