Greets!
In our last tournament, we ran into an interesting scenerio, thanks to József Gábor Gál's unorthodox idea. There were a lot of 419 Operation in play as well as The Rising. What happens when these two cards collide assuming there's no victory points gained?
419 Operation
[EK:C]
Cardtype: Action
Clan: Osebo
+1 stealth action.
Put this card in play. During your untap phase, you may move 1 pool from your prey's pool to this card or move the pool on this card to your pool. Your prey can burn the Edge to move the counters on this card to his or her pool and burn this card.
Name: The Rising
[HttB:R]
Cardtype: Event
Gehenna. Do not replace until your prey is ousted.
Requires at least two other Gehenna cards in play. A Methuselah cannot gain pool during his or her own turn unless he or she has the Edge or at least one victory point. Any pool he or she would gain goes to the bank instead.
NC of Hungary
///
I would suppose the tokens are alway burned instead of put into whoever pool. I don't really see why this wouldn't be the case, but maybe I am missing something obvious.
Just collect pool on the 419 Ops. Then bleed them out behind it while their pool is low. Nothing stops you from stockpiling counters on 419s...
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
I guess the quedtion is about burning the edge for burning one 419 operation. IMHO when you burn the edge for burning the 419 you don't get the tokens to your pool cause the edge is burned, so not controlled by you
You can burn the edge and operation in your preys untap to get your pool back. Rising only restricts you gaining pool on your own turn and 419 Operation lets you burn it at any time by burning the edge.
Marko, Prince of Helsinki
Yeah, sorry for not being obvious, my main question would be that if I have the Operations, and Rising is in play, my prey would not get the chance to gain pool by bleeding, getting the Edge, burning the Operation... a-e's solution is a correct one, but this way my prey only gets to burn 1 Operation IF he managed to get the Edge...
NC of Hungary
///
Hum... lets see If I understand the question...
Your prey bleeds someone... and of course gets the Edge...
Now... he can burn the edge to burn a 419...
But now he does not have the edge anymore... so can he gain any pool from the 419?
Is that that the question?
Now IMHO you can count the burning of the card and regaining the pool as a single window... so he should be able to regain the pool... or as a sequence... in that case he shouldn't get anything... but lets hear it from the judges...
I would think you don't get the lost pool but considering "burning the edge" as a cost and looking at the ruling for eternal of sirius at 4 pool, maybe the timing of cards make it that you still get your pool back?
> Malachy wrote:
> 419 Operation
> [EK:C]
> Cardtype: Action
> Clan: Osebo
> +1 stealth action.
> Put this card in play. During your untap phase, you may move 1 pool from your prey's pool to this card or move the pool on this card to your pool. Your prey can burn the Edge to move the counters on this card to his or her pool and burn this card.
>
> Name: The Rising
> [HttB:R]
> Cardtype: Event
> Gehenna. Do not replace until your prey is ousted.
> Requires at least two other Gehenna cards in play. A Methuselah cannot gain pool during his or her own turn unless he or she has the Edge or at least one victory point. Any pool he or she would gain goes to the bank instead.
>
Question: if The Rising is in play and I have the Edge, what happens if I "burn the Edge to move the counters on this card to [my] pool"?
Answer: Off Kilter provides precedent.
+1 stealth action.
Gain 1 pool. If you do not have the Edge, you get the Edge. Otherwise, you may burn the Edge to gain 1 additional pool.
Note that this is a similar "burn the edge to [gain some pool]" construction.
[LSJ 20100207]
> LSJ, wrote:
> > My question would be: If you DO have the edge, and burn it for the
> > final sentence of Off Kilter, will The Rising neuter that last pool
> > gain because you now no longer own the edge?
>
> Yes (unless you also have a VP already).
>
So in a similar situation - burn the Edge to move the counters - The Rising would also neuter it.
Similar situation seems to = 419 op and Victorias special in this instance, the difference being 419 can be burned when its not your turn if you burn the edge, while victorias special is completely killed, since you burn the edge your turn to use it.
Similarly, if you bleed with kindred spirits during your turn with the rising out, and burn the edge for leverage, you gain no pool, simce you lose and do not regain the edge that action and its your turn. This changes if you oust since you gain a vp on that action, which i think ks stackw the poolgain into the same window of.
If you madness network kindred spirits bleed on your preys turn, and burn the edge for leverage, you eo gqin pool, its not your turn as per rising and ks.
Its obvious timing windows, and slightly ambiguous cost windows.
Obviously, gambit accepted also negates you having had a vp to the rising .
Also, Hrothulf rushing using his special and emptying an anathemad vamp gains no pool, if rising is out, as edgr was bruned as cost.
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> Similarly, if you bleed with kindred spirits during your turn with the rising out, and burn the edge for leverage, you gain no pool, simce you lose and do not regain the edge that action and its your turn.
>
Leverage doesn't matter. If you don't have the Edge, then bleed with Kindred Spirits, you don't gain pool.
[LSJ 20100206]
> LSJ, wrote:
> > The Rising is in play. I do not have the edge. I successfully bleed
> > with Kindred Spirits. Do I gain 1 pool from Kindred Spirits ?
>
> No. You have to resolve the bleed (resolve the action) in order to get
> the Edge.
>
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> This changes if you oust since you gain a vp on that action, which i think ks stackw the poolgain into the same window of.
>
It may change. It doesn't have to.
[LSJ 201002008]
> LSJ wrote:
> Similarly for the package of "VP + 6 pool". You can say you have the
> VP first and then the 6 pool (so that The Rising will leave you alone
> about the the 6 pool gain). Or the other way around, if you need to
> avoid gaining the six pool.
>
(Why would you want to avoid gaining pool? Parity Shift.)
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> If you madness network kindred spirits bleed on your preys turn, and burn the edge for leverage, you eo gqin pool, its not your turn as per rising and ks.
>
Incorrect. [LSJ 20100206] (above).
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> Also, Hrothulf rushing using his special and emptying an anathemad vamp gains no pool, if rising is out, as edgr was bruned as cost.
>
Yes, burning the Edge happened when the action resolved (successfully). Ages before.
How do you not gain pool for a ks bleed during your preys turn? The rising says nobody gains pool during thier turn without the edgr or a vp. Your preys turn is not your turn.
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> How do you not gain pool for a ks bleed during your preys turn? The rising says nobody gains pool during thier turn without the edgr or a vp. Your preys turn is not your turn.
>
Sorry, yes, brain fart.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > ReverendRevolver wrote:
> > How do you not gain pool for a ks bleed during your preys turn? The rising says nobody gains pool during thier turn without the edgr or a vp. Your preys turn is not your turn.
> >
> Sorry, yes, brain fart.
>
Just making sure, as that was one of the points i was certain of.
> Izaak wrote:
>
> > a-e's solution is a correct one, but this way my prey only gets to burn 1 Operation IF he managed to get the Edge...
> >
> Isn't the always the case?
>
In your own turn, you can burn one 419 per bleeder: bleed, burn the edge, bleed, burn the edge, rince and repeat.
> Non-existant user wrote:
>
> > Izaak wrote:
> >
> > > a-e's solution is a correct one, but this way my prey only gets to burn 1 Operation IF he managed to get the Edge...
> > >
> > >
> > Isn't the always the case?
> >
> In your own turn, you can burn one 419 per bleeder: bleed, burn the edge, bleed, burn the edge, rince and repeat.
>
Dudes, this is obvious... a-e's hint was about regaining the pool from Operation by burning the Edge in other Meth's turn cuz Rising only restricts pool gain in your own turn. My whole question is about pool gain in this situation really...
NC of Hungary
///
> Malachy wrote:
> Greets!
>
> In our last tournament, we ran into an interesting scenerio, thanks to József Gábor Gál's unorthodox idea. There were a lot of 419 Operation in play as well as The Rising. What happens when these two cards collide assuming there's no victory points gained?
>
> 419 Operation
> [EK:C]
> Cardtype: Action
> Clan: Osebo
> +1 stealth action.
> Put this card in play. During your untap phase, you may move 1 pool from your prey's pool to this card or move the pool on this card to your pool. Your prey can burn the Edge to move the counters on this card to his or her pool and burn this card.
>
> Name: The Rising
> [HttB:R]
> Cardtype: Event
> Gehenna. Do not replace until your prey is ousted.
> Requires at least two other Gehenna cards in play. A Methuselah cannot gain pool during his or her own turn unless he or she has the Edge or at least one victory point. Any pool he or she would gain goes to the bank instead.
>
a - you control the 419 Operation
During your untap phase, if you have the Edge (or a VP), you can move the counters on 419 Operation to your pool. If you don't have the Edge (or a VP), you can move the counters on 419 Operation to the blood bank.
b - your predator controls a 419 Operation.
During your turn, if you burn the Edge (with no VP) to 419 Operation's cardtext, you'll move the counters from 419 Operation to the blood bank.
During anyone else's turn, if you burn the Edge (with no VP) to 419 Operation's cardtext, you'll move the counters from 419 Operation to your pool.
Interesting. Gain and Move are defined as equivalent terms in VtES. Good to know. Other CCGs disagree on such rulings for terms, so this question needed to be asked.
> Azel wrote:
> Interesting. Gain and Move are defined as equivalent terms in VtES. Good to know. Other CCGs disagree on such rulings for terms, so this question needed to be asked.
>
Yes, but "target" and "choose" and still different, so we arent above word lawyering y any means