Print On Demand and other languages

Dunno if this should be posted here or in the General Discussion forum... While VTES was in print, it was occasionally proposed from the playerbase that VTES be published in languages other than English. Back then, this idea was unfeasible from a business perspective, given the need for entirely new printing plates. With Print On Demand, there's no need for the printing plates (correct?). Perhaps it's now more feasible to have VTES printed in foreign languages. It'd still be a lot of work, given the need for translations, templating of wording in other languages, typesetting, layout, etc. Thoughts on this? I don't believe the idea is currently in the works, but it might be worth looking into.

Maintaining cardlists / Rulebook / rulings / etc in several languages in going to be extremely difficult. If such a thing is done, I will need tons of volunteers. Also, as far as I know, since V:tES has been printed and played with English cards, many players use the English cardname. Translating names (with correct references to what they .. refer to) is going to be a hassle. Check Russian players, for example: Would they drop "миньен тап" ? As far as I know, French players wouldn't play "Contrôle de la Terre" (Earth Control), "Conduite Bestiale" (Freak Drive), "Carna, la Sorcière" or "Appel à la Grande Bête" (Call the Great Beast). Simply because we're used to the English names. Translating keywords is going to be extremely difficult, as we don't really have that many keywords.

translating the cards, names... isn't a good idea. Even if someone is not familiar with english, he learn the names and basic keywords from another players.

If the cards were going to be printed in other languages, card names should not be translated. However, it would be interesting to know if printing cards in other languages would be a good way to promote V:TES and widen its playerbase. V:EKN Website Coordinator

I used to be a fan of non english cards in mtg, butcin vtes even cards you see often needd wordimg checked sometimes. And english is technically the language you have to at least know some of to play the game, so english only still works, far as i can see.

The obvious translations would be those languages with wide usage around the world, Spanish, French, Portuguese. Maybe at a stretch something like Chinese but that would become a real hassle since you would need to then maintain almost an entire website in Chinese (and I don't think the game is particularly strong in China). Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > The obvious translations would be those languages with wide usage around the world, Spanish, French, Portuguese. Maybe at a stretch something like Chinese but that would become a real hassle since you would need to then maintain almost an entire website in Chinese (and I don't think the game is particularly strong in China). > I recall legal issues selling things with pictures of skulls or human remains in china as well, which could be yet another problem. Honsetly, spanish would make sense. Maybe french(but again, most players from france, spain, mexico, brazil, etc who play typically havr at least some knowledge of english.)

A nifty idea! Could be rather useful for spreading the game in countries that don't have that widespread command of english. Totally agress with Damnans about the card names (applies to keywords etc too). I seem to remember that cards have already been translated to at least spanish so perhaps some experiences from there could be used? Finnish Politics!

It takes a lot of investment to take on a new country, especially China. I don't think anyone has that kind of money to put on VTES. Time would be better spent supporting the languages of the existing playgroups.

Technically translating cards to a new language is easy to do. As long as you create a dictionary for the terminology used in the game and hold on to that standard. For example a ‘retainer’ is A and a ‘minion’ is B and ‘+X stealth’ translates to ‘+X C’, but the term will not be translated as it is a key term/action for the game and players also use while the rest of the game is played in language XYZ. As requested by Andreas N. about 2 ½ years ago, I have done that for the German rulebook and it worked fine. So get your rulebook translated, thereby define the terminology and then translate the card texts. I was also hesitant about the translation of card names, but as long as you keep reference I don’t see a reason why names should not be translated. The ‘other game’ has been living with translated card names for decades and has done pretty well. As an additional remark, it was very helpful for me to have the full set of German V:tM rules handy. The folks who originally published the RPG put a lot of effort and thought into finding the appropriate terms. For example: ‘ally’ vs. ‘retainer’ -MV-

The English language has not been a barrier for new players in Portugal. Since Portugal has never invested in any type of translation from foreign (mostly American) culture items, most gamming-oriented people are rather fluent in English, as some of you already seen. The language is more of an issue for Spain and Brazil, I think.

> Brum wrote: > The language is more of an issue for Spain and Brazil, I think. > The same thing could be said for France, since on average, French have horrible english skill (and everything is translated and/or voice acted). But apparently, french vtes player are despite that good english speaker Unlike what Marcus Vitel say, in my experience, translation is pretty difficult, mainly because consistency is key, and often translations errors or ambiguity can change the meaning of a card quite a bit. Having only english card may be better than translated card with errors on some cards that force to check Secret library at each rule question just in case.

> Brum wrote: > The English language has not been a barrier for new players in Portugal. > I suppose the main topic of this thread isn't about the players, but about the quitters / people not interested in playing the game.

> Pascal wrote: > > > Brum wrote: > > The English language has not been a barrier for new players in Portugal. > > > I suppose the main topic of this thread isn't about the players, but about the quitters / people not interested in playing the game. > I think its too much pulling resources into suboptimal areas to reqlly consider. Maybe down the road spanish, french, and german cards could see print. Maybe even italian. Going to russian, chinese, etc, is way more work than worth doing to my knowledge. Laibon cards in swahili would be neat, but not worth effort.

Localization costs for such project would be quite high considering the volume (several thousand cards + rulebook + erratas + rulings) and nobody's going to pay for this. The logical choice would be to do it basing on volunteers in target countries - finding them may be tricky (this WILL be a time-consuming project), although that may not be such a barrier as one may think. And in the end, who would translate the content in a better way than people who love the game and who have played it for many, many years? Personally I don't like playing games in my native language, I will always choose the English version when given a choice (I grew up on games played in English and it just stayed that way). However, from the marketing perspective, the popularity of V:TES may greatly increase and player acquisition should get a massive boost, so I wouldn't reject the idea. If anyone can print the cards in any language, the accessibility barrier is pretty much gone, and so is the language one. Which directly translates into "good for business". I used to work in localization in the past (coordinated global translation projects as a PM, corporate level mostly) so I have a pretty good idea on how to run such project - give me a shout if you ever consider doing it and I can give you a hand (stuff like project planning, terminology validation, coordination between translators, basically the ropes). Resource-wise you need a PM who can run the whole thing + one or more coordinators per target language / country, who can recruit and coordinate volunteers. I'd say it is doable in 6 - 8 months. Happy to give out more details if you need them.

Another possible issue, playing the game is, at least in theory, always donexin english at largexevents. It could be rough forxplayers to only need thier nativexlanguage to play continental events done in english.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > Another possible issue, playing the game is, at least in theory, always donexin english at largexevents. > > It could be rough forxplayers to only need thier nativexlanguage to play continental events done in english. > True, but think about the scale. If you can run local tournaments with, let's say, 50 people and qualifiers / nationals with 150 - 200, you have a pretty decent scene on your own. Again - entry barrier is close to zero, all you need to get the scene running is good marketing. Plus people who want to play internationally can always choose to do so, therefore accepting the "English only" clause abroad. Sure we're daydreaming at the moment, but I wouldn't say it's impossible to achieve.

> Pascal wrote: > > > Brum wrote: > > The English language has not been a barrier for new players in Portugal. > > > I suppose the main topic of this thread isn't about the players, but about the quitters / people not interested in playing the game. > Even less of a problem in Portugal. For example, in Portugal people only use MtG cards in "Portuguese" when forced to by price (cheaper) or stores (draft versions). Kids know the spells they learn in Hogwarts, and latin is worse than English.

> Brum wrote: > > > Pascal wrote: > > > > > Brum wrote: > > > The English language has not been a barrier for new players in Portugal. > > > > > I suppose the main topic of this thread isn't about the players, but about the quitters / people not interested in playing the game. > > > Even less of a problem in Portugal. > > For example, in Portugal people only use MtG cards in "Portuguese" when forced to by price (cheaper) or stores (draft versions). > Kids know the spells they learn in Hogwarts, and latin is worse than English. > Which reminds me..... If vatican city ever needs cards in latin, dont ask me for help. High school was a long time ago, and i cant conjigate a damn thing in latin anymore........

I like the idea. I'm convinced, that for some people language IS a barrier and they would play the game more likely without that barrier. I think it'd be worth the try. Baron of Frankfurt

> Joscha wrote: > I like the idea. I'm convinced, that for some people language IS a barrier and they would play the game more likely without that barrier. I think it'd be worth the try. > It is a gigantic enterprise. That is the major problem I see with it.

> Brum wrote: > It is a gigantic enterprise. > That is the major problem I see with it. > I agree. I think people in favor of that don't understand the amount of work that will have to be poured, nor the fact that if it is badly done (which will certainly happen, since it's very hard to do) it's worse than english-only card.

As per my previous post I don’t think it is difficult to do, but it has to be done properly. I totally agree. But I strongly believe that making cards available in languages other than English will provide a great benefit for the few people still interested in trying the game for the first time. VEKN members tend to see the situation from a veteran / tournament player’s perspective, but I think it is equally if not more important to bring new to the table and keep the barriers for that as low as possible. If you have a volunteer organization and people are willing to dedicate time to the project, I would rather ask why not to do it? Here (again) is my suggestion: •Have the NCs select a project team to translate the rule book and of course choose people who have the language capabilities •Select a project leader who has the authority to make the calls in case of opposing opinions. He/she needs to have strong knowledge of the V:tM background. •Have the rulebook translated and at the same time create a dictionary of V:tes terms •Apply the terminology to the card texts Question: Didn’t we have a set of translated rule books? Where are those? -MV-

> MarcusVitel wrote: > As per my previous post I don’t think it is difficult to do, but it has to be done properly. > Well, experience with translated material - in a country where everything is translated - is that it's alway done pretty badly. I don't really see what make you so optimistic, but decreting it's easy won't make it easy. Don't forget the amount of work to be consistent between every cards. We would need translator (which is a job, not an hobby) that actually know rule well.

> MarcusVitel wrote: > Question: Didn’t we have a set of translated rule books? Where are those? > The Rulebook in Spanish can be found here: www.vtes.net/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=YtF7UYvV7XQ%3d&tabid=380&mid=871&language=es-ES It's an old version though (Third Edition), but it could be easily updated. And here is an outdated version of the English-Spanish dictionary of VTES terms: damnans.hostei.com/viehome.htm V:EKN Website Coordinator

I understand your concerns and trust me that I am fully aware of what you mean – especially movie titles have been and will be translated horribly many, many times. What I don’t agree with is the statement that while something had not been done properly in the past, we can assume that it will go wrong in the future. There are always infinite ways to do something the wrong and maybe only one way to do it right. This project has a high potential of attracting new players and I understand that we need the right people to take it on. For someone who has a solid knowledge of English and a team to help him/her, it will be easy. Especially when you have the V:TM rules handy in the designated language as most of the terms have been translated by the RPG publishers. We had many volunteers submitting their art for new cards and I would not tell these enthusiastic community members that I have seen many bad pieces of artwork on gaming cards, so we need a professional full-time artist to do the job or if we can’t afford that we created cards without artwork. I am also not intimidated by the amount of cards that need translation. When the team decided that “Intercept” translates to A, “Predator” to B and “the acting methuselah” to C - how hard could it be to translate “+1 A - [only usable if] your B is C”. Once the key terms are defined, most of the card texts fall into place. Just start with one of the base sets and go one set at a time. -MV-

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > MarcusVitel wrote: > > As per my previous post I don’t think it is difficult to do, but it has to be done properly. > > > Well, experience with translated material - in a country where everything is translated - is that it's alway done pretty badly. I don't really see what make you so optimistic, but decreting it's easy won't make it easy. > > Don't forget the amount of work to be consistent between every cards. We would need translator (which is a job, not an hobby) that actually know rule well. > This is not going to be easy, true. In fact, again - considering this volume - it will be a highly complicated project. However, it is far from impossible. If you're worried about consistency, you use a CAT tool (Computer Assisted Translation) and share the database between translators. Initially you translate all the terminology and then validate it, this gives you the core stuff so you can work on the rest. I really don't want to post a wall of text here about how I think it should be done (I don't think this is the right place for it), but it is totally doable. Takes a lot of time, work and energy, sure, a lot of attention to detail as well, proper teamwork (and - more importantly - a proper team) is essential, but I wouldn't be so pesimistic about it.

If this becomes a realized direction, why dont we make an IC member reaponsible for coordinating things, then decide like1-3 Languages to test with. They need to be decided by ease of translation compared to potential playerbase expansion/relevance. Id assume spanish and german would probably be top contenders. But we should wait until pod is running, and thus current texts exist for all cards.

I am fluent in traditional Chinese/Mandarin (reading, writing, speaking to 9th grade level). My simplified Chinese needs improvement but I can read half of the language and the rest are not too hard to identify given time, and of course, English is my native tongue. Yes, this will definitely be a job and not a hobby as it would take up a tremendous amount of dedicated time to translate the rules and card texts correctly, but can definitely be done with proof-reading afterwards. I also agree the card title/name should remain English, and only translate the body of description to foreign language. I will talk with the Asian community here in Asia and see what we can come up with. Get busy living or get busy dying ----Andy Dufresne

I have better-than-none but not much better than "I can buy a dinner on the mainland"... BUT I do have access to some native Chinese speakers as well. I might be able to help out a little too James. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418