My first thing after seeing it was
"Stanislava deck already is powerful archetype. Why boosting her by allowing for free high cap vamps?"
I havent seen it yet but i am bound to think that Gather+Golconda combo is insane.
And dont tell me that you can remove it. with her blocking and tons of obedience.
Besides my friend uses Gather with House of Sorrow. Free Angus the Unruled and next turn another 9cap practically for free.
And to think that some dude removed Lilith blessing, completely forgetting about Gather.
Gather is weak enough to not be worth the slot most of the time for me. If you have Stanislava and the best thing you can do is gather, it's rather sad really.
Don't forget the vampire gathered come in play empty (or with few blood payed from your pool at best), and Stanislava don't block too well, so removing it isn't exactly the most difficult thing on earth.
Dude i know that
Lilith blessing was banned because it was very good in combo with villein
But this is even more retarded combo.
I realise Gather alone is not that good. But add HoS and Golconda and you have insane bloat.
Gamebreaking to me. Not mentioning you can get easy votelock with different Justicars in crypt.
Dont you think something should be done to prevent this abuse? We should be preactive, before somebody wastes a few tournaments
I never seen someone using that in an abusive way ; most of the time it's between okay-ish and downright bad. Golconda may help make thoses empty vampire useful, but I prefer to use Villein and keep my vampire.
Note that you cannot have multiple Gangrel justicar in your crypt, and even if your could they would contest title. And there is rather few gangrel prince, so the vote lock seem not all that threatening.
Also, House of Sorrow + Gather tend to compare badly to, say, Govern + Zillah, if only because it's much more versatile. That's the main point : if you have dominate, like Stanislava have, why bother with Gather ?
> Ohlmann wrote:
> I never seen someone using that in an abusive way ; most of the time it's between okay-ish and downright bad. Golconda may help make thoses empty vampire useful, but I prefer to use Villein and keep my vampire.
>
> Note that you cannot have multiple Gangrel justicar in your crypt, and even if your could they would contest title. And there is rather few gangrel prince, so the vote lock seem not all that threatening.
>
> Also, House of Sorrow + Gather tend to compare badly to, say, Govern + Zillah, if only because it's much more versatile. That's the main point : if you have dominate, like Stanislava have, why bother with Gather ?
>
ad1 I dont understand what you mean. Gather+Golconda is free pool. You still have full Stanislava. Unlike Villein case.
ad2 i didnt mean same justicars. you can have one from each clan plus 5 stanislavas in perfect crypt
ad3govern plus zillah costs 5 pool, 1 master phase and 1 action. gather plus house costs 3 pool, master phase and action only once, then its only 1 pool and action
> galliard wrote:
> ad1 I dont understand what you mean. Gather+Golconda is free pool. You still have full Stanislava. Unlike Villein case.
>
It's not "free" : you invest pool and action to hope to gain some pool later. Villein let you remove some of the useless blood (no, Stanislava don't need 11 blood on 90% of the game I see ; 5 blood is often plenty in a game), and if you don't use Gather you can siphon every vampire you get, which do net a lot of pool - and you still can Golconda them once they are empty, in torpor, or whatever.
>
> galliard wrote:
> ad2 i didnt mean same justicars. you can have one from each clan plus 5 stanislavas in perfect crypt
>
And they cannot be gathered if they aren't gangrel.
>
> galliard wrote:
> ad3govern plus zillah costs 5 pool, 1 master phase and 1 action. gather plus house costs 3 pool, master phase and action only once, then its only 1 pool and action
>
... BUt since your vampire is full, you can villein it. So, it actually cost less pool to go the Govern + Zillah - in fact, you gain pool instead of spending it.
I count 7 decks in the TWDA using Gather.
I count 13 occurrences of Gather in these 7 decks.
I count 4 of these 7 decks using only 1 Gather.
None uses recycling.
I'll quote Matt Green (2003) : "Amazing. Got me 2 vampires, never got burned" (out of 4 Gathers).
Now, if someone has been abusing the card, the least I can say is that they've not been winning with it.
Remember, Gather is attached to a single >Gangrel< crypt card. If Stanislava plays Gather and targets Angus, once Angus comes out, Gather won't redirect to Ingrid.
And since it's unique, you'll have to burn it if you want to bring someone else in play with Gather.
Ive listed out plenty of gather decks, never bothered building them. Heres the trick:
Use Fakir or Slava.
Once you pick one of them, the rezt of the crypt is the exact same:
Xavier,Zayyat, Karsh,Brunhilde,Torvus.
You play therbold reality. You play house of sorrow. The 11 cap gathers, then freak drives or forced marches to gover or scouting with slava or enchant with fakir. The gathered vamp should be zayyat, unless you can flip him with the beads from the action and transfers. Make sure he has some beads on him.
Then flip him with gather that hos untapped.
Next, turn hos into pool with therbold, play another.
Zayyat uses his special to brunhilde or torvus, 11 cap enchant, govern, whatever to zame vamp, creak drives, gathers karsh or Xavier. Untap gather with hos, bring out two other fatties.
Now you have axtoolbox deck and will be gathering only if you need to burn or golconda a vamp. Slava cersion can vote, and deflect, but fakir can mots and shares tha and pre with zayyat and brunhilde, while slava can forced march with Xavier and Karsh.
Its never broken, tap n cap is WAY more efficient at ganing pool and if its law firm, better at free minions too with maryanne lucinde, or queen ann with prince that are younger. The latter two of those can even oitferior domain of evwrnight and govern enchant scouting, with deflectiond and 2nd trads for defense and multiact bleeds daring dawn and krcs to go offensive, so is just way better and doesnt need combo to work, just the cards it already uses.
Gather is ok, but not amazing.
Gangrel arent as good as they should be.
> Non-existant user wrote:
> From what you describe, it is Insurance Scam you play, not Therbold.
>
My bad, brain wasnt on, apparently. I used scam and therbold in grotesque decks, so i musta crossed some wires in my head.....
> galliard wrote:
> Dont you think something should be done to prevent this abuse? We should be preactive, before somebody wastes a few tournaments
>
Given that the Gather + HoS + Golconda (or whatever) combo has been understood for years, it seems likely that it's not game breaking. Yes, you can potentially get quite a lot of pool, but a fair amount of your forward momentum is sacrificed in the process. Also that to get both cards out fairly early, you probably need to stack your deck with quite a few, which causes some related issues later. Also, unlike Villein+Lilith, Gather is an action card, which is usually more interactive - people can block it. And your empty vampire may be vulnerable to various nefarious issues. So it's probably quite a bit more involved than 6 Villeins and three copies of Lilith.
At this stage, the best way to demonstrate how insanely game-breaking the card is really would be to break a few tournaments with it, demonstrating your astonishing V:TES prowess and the card's problems.
The problem with Gather is that high-cap Gangrel are just awful.
If you're playing Stanislava, there are 20 other things you could be doing that are more productive than Gather. At best, you might get out Ingrid for the basic dominate and superior in-clan. Once she's out, you're probably better off keeping her and that's 20 pool.
If you're using Fakir, no other Gangrel can use his spread and he's not that great on his own.
Thanks to Justicar's disease and lack of bounce or boost, it just isn't worth it.
I've thought about the Golconda combo, but you end up wasting so many card slots and actions and it still won't oust.
Gather is cute, but I almost never see it used.
I've used Gather for years in my G1/2 Gangrel voting deck. It's nice because a)no one ever removes it, and b)it gets you out another titled vampire, which you need since G1/2 Gangrel don't have decent vote push.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
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you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
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> KevinM wrote:
> I've used Gather for years in my G1/2 Gangrel voting deck. It's nice because a)no one ever removes it, and b)it gets you out another titled vampire, which you need since G1/2 Gangrel don't have decent vote push.
>
Well, they have lokis gift now. Are you implyimg that isnt reasonable vote push?
On a more serious note, Gangrel in vtes have gotten screwed hard. The last set that tried to be nice to them was AE, and even then, thier "best" stuff was an 8 cap with +1 intercept and a 7 cap with all in clans(a canon character to boot) but he was freaking precon only. Then they also got a bmch of amusing fatties like xavier and zayyat, and two functional fatties, torvus and brunhilde, along with solid midrange vamps and weenies, but id take Iliana over most midcap g3 gangrel most days, so still not amazing.
Then they got a support vamp and a guy to make werewolves better in TR. Then KOT happened, and they at least got an attempt at help in the form of a few neat fatties again, along with an almost playable pto, but again, the best thing to happen to gangrel in KoT was deep song got printed.
So, in summery, gangrel suck, gather is weak because of it. If g5-6 sees better stuff, like access to second trad, dominate, solid special texts, etc, gangrel can finally be relevant. Imagine how good gather would be if gangrels in clans were ani dom for. But, being stuck with a support diacipline like protean, they need crypt design love. They need a crypt like g2 tzimitce got midcap wise. Maybe a built in rusher. But i dont think gather sucks, i think g2 was the last time gangrel got a big favor done, because slava is good.
the only time I found Gather to be "broken" was when it dissuaded my prey from casually banishing my 9-cap with low blood because he would just come right back out for free
if only Gather weren't unique, then i could easily protect all my vampires from friggin Banishment
I once thought Gather is THE card and gathered eight of them ;o).
Two problems I encountered:
a) If your gathered minion comes out you have to burn the card to be able to play a new one. That is time consuming and costs you 1 pool. Annoying.
b) You can play it with Golconda, good call. You don't have to burn Gather anymore. But to be honest gathering your vamps and burn them afterwards for pool doesn't win you games. In the meantime the other decks do things, build strong positions, better their minions, burn pool. You gather and bloat. It may be a good thing to let you stay alive, granted. But it doesn't win you games IMHO.
Baron of Frankfurt
Wait wait wait....
After reading your post I read the card text again :
Name: Gather
[Anarchs:R, KoT:R]
Cardtype: Action
Clan: Gangrel
Cost: 1 pool
+1 stealth action. Unique.
Put this card in play, tapped, and choose a younger Gangrel in your uncontrolled region. During the influence phase, you may tap this card to move that Gangrel from your uncontrolled region to your ready region, with any counters he or she has, unless that Gangrel would contest a vampire in play. Any vampire can burn this card as a action that costs 1 pool.
I never imagined that you had to burn your own gather if you want to gather another Gangrel...
It is crappier than I thought it was...
And by the way, I don't see anything that say that you don't have to burn your Gather after a golconda.
> Joscha wrote:
> b) You can play it with Golconda, good call. You don't have to burn Gather anymore.
>
As others have pointed out, this doesn't work. References:
Gather doesn't go on the vampire. [LSJ 20041024]
>
> LSJ wrote:
> Trivia:
> [Gather] is never in the possession of the vampire who played it.
> It is simply "put into play" not "put on the acting vampire".
>
So burning the vampire (or removing it from the game) doesn't also take out Gather, as it would for the Leather Jacket held by the vampire.
Similarly, it hangs around, but won't target another copy of the vampire with the same name; it targets that specific card. (So you can't Golconda Wynn, then use the dangling Gather on another copy of Wynn you have in your uncontrolled region.) [LSJ 20041112]
>
> LSJ wrote:
> >>Gather targets *that particular card*, not the Vampire by name.
> >
> > what?? but the card says select a younger gangrel in your uncontrolled
> > region, and after that says, move THAT gangrel to your ready region,
> > so if i gather nadima again i would be moving THAT gangrel, not
> > another one
>
> No. THAT gangrel was burned. The copy of Nadima in your uncontrolled
> region is not THAT vampire. It is a different one (with the same name).
>
> Non-existant user wrote:
> A minion cannot perform more than one bleed action each turn, even if he untaps.
>
The Baron (the same card of The Baron) bleeds for many times.
EDIT: I know that is legal, but seems unlogical.
Is it because cards in play remember which card they target, but minions leaving play loose memory of their state?
Lousy Internet in Luanda.
Upside, I haven't been rushed by any Laibon yet.
> Brum wrote:
>
> > Non-existant user wrote:
> > A minion cannot perform more than one bleed action each turn, even if he untaps.
> >
> The Baron (the same card of The Baron) bleeds for many times.
>
Do you mean the situation where - for example - the Baron burns himself, goes to the ash heap, and is brought back into play with Possession? (Possibly triggering a Soul Gem along the way.)
Going into the ash heap wipes you clean. (Also, going into the library or crypt.) You're no longer the same minion. [LSJ 20010627]
>
> LSJ wrote:
> > > 3. If my Muddled Vampire Hunter rushes another minion and dies, and then
> > > get's Compel Spirited, can he now rush again imediatly? (NRA?)
> >
> > Yes.
> > All minions that re-enter play from the ashheap may do things that previous
> > copies of themselves did earlier the same turn. Treat the minion that
> > enters play in this fashion as not previously having taking any actions, as
> > the minion remembers nothing of the turn because it was in the ash heap.
> >
> > "Minions brought into play from the Ash Heap (or Hand) are as pure as they
> > day they were born. They retain nothing from any previous "life" they may
> > have had in the controlled region. (Card text excluded, of course). This
> > includes forgetting any actions they may have taken in that previous life."
> > [LSJ 6-25-1997]
>
> Correct.
>
This is an upside for repeating actions, but can also be a downside for beneficial effects that targetted that minion.
> Timo wrote:
> Wait wait wait....It is crappier than I thought it was...
>
> And by the way, I don't see anything that say that you don't have to burn your Gather after a golconda.
>
Thanks for the correction guys.
Does anybody wants to swap Gather for something useful ?
Baron of Frankfurt
> Joscha wrote:
> Thanks for the correction guys.
> Does anybody wants to swap Gather for something useful ?
>
It's far from terrible, but it's not a card to build your whole deck around. But you have a Gangrel deck which might have a few spare actions going? Adding a Gather might well be a reasonable thing to do.