about agravated+normal damage

hello i was sure that when you have zero blood, you burn if you take 1 normal and 1 aggro damage. it doesnt have to be 2 aggro. thats how i interpret rulebook how is it? my opponent had 1 blood and he got 2r from carrion crows and 1hs aggravated and said he dont burn. i will quote a line that makes me think he was wrong Aggravated damage done to a wounded vampire can burn the vampire outright. A wounded vampire is one that has taken damage that he failed to heal or one that is in torpor or on his way to torpor. i won that game anyways so we didnt argue much, but its important to know this for future regards

> galliard wrote: > how is it? my opponent had 1 blood and he got 2r from carrion crows and 1hs aggravated and said he dont burn. > he is wrong. the vamp should burn. here's what happens : the vamp has 1 blood. He has to handle 2 normal damage and 1 agg damage. the first damage makes him lose one blood, and the second, since he cannot heal it (no blood left), sends him to torpor. the agg damage comes on top of that : since the vamp is already on way to torpor, the agg damage requires him to burn a blood to prevent destruction. He has no blood left, so he is burned on his way to torpor. Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

See also the rulebook where this example is covered: > rulebook wrote: > If both regular damage and aggravated damage are successfully inflicted on a vampire at the same time, the regular damage is handled first. This only applies to unprevented damage; damage prevention effects can be used to prevent the aggravated damage before the normal damage, if the player chooses. If a vampire is wounded, he goes to torpor after all the damage is handled (see Torpor, sec. 6.5). If aggravated damage burns him, he goes directly to the ash heap. He doesn't go through torpor first. > Krid is ready and has 1 blood when he receives 1 point of aggravated damage. He cannot heal this damage, so he is wounded and goes to torpor with 1 blood. Milo is ready and has 2 blood when he receives 3 points of aggravated damage. He cannot heal any of it. He becomes wounded by 1 point, and so he must burn 2 blood to prevent destruction from the other 2 points (1 blood per point), leaving him empty and in torpor. Barth is ready and has 1 blood when he receives 2 regular damage and 1 aggravated damage. He burns 1 blood to heal the first point of normal damage. He doesn't have enough blood to heal the second point and becomes wounded. The aggravated damage burns him, since he already is wounded and cannot burn a blood to prevent his destruction. > Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Correct answers from Reyda and Ankha. Normal damage is handled before aggravated damage during damage resolution.

The forma for burning outright is 2 or more agg at zero, and add in damage from there at a 1 per blood basis.

just do the simple math of x+2 damage as long as 1 pt is aggravated(eg. 7blood on a vamp gets burned if he takes 9 damage and so long as one of those is aggravated). For the sample above 7 damage puts him to zero blood, 8th torpors him already the last aggravated point of damage burns him. So in the scenario you cited Galliard you definitely burned that vamp.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > The forma for burning outright is 2 or more agg at zero, > They don't both have to be agg. At zero blood, one normal damage will wound you (no blood to heal it) just as well as a point of agg will wound you (cannot be healed). Additionally, relying on a formula causes some awkwardness when a vampire who has already been wounded is still in combat. (Undead Persistence, Undying Tenacity.) Similarly, if the vampire is hit by a "go to torpor" effect (e.g. Coma), wounding them.

Yea, but flamethrower gets around undying tenacity et al, and coma..... is just weird. The rule is, the first agg puts you in torpor, and then you have to burn blood to heal the damage. Take more agf than blood, your toast. The only reason 1 agg doesnt kill you is the rule is that first point puts you in torpor. But if you are empty and take an ivory bow hit, you go to torpor. Ive never to my knowledge hit an opponent for 2 crows and shot with ivory bow while empty, but i suppose dbr+ vitals probably happens every once in awhile and yeilds the same results. Im not normally mixing damage types, beyond needding to know if a vamp is burnable or not. As for coma and woundimg...... Gwydd bleeds with kindred spirits, gets blocked, playes dawn op. Opponent is at one blood. Gwydd plays crows, then comas, preventing thexopponents strike with fortitude. Opponent would go to torpor from first crow damage, and then burn a blood, but since coma drops him, he attempts to heal 2 agg, fails, and burns, correct? Itll only ever happen with gwydd, hazimel, una, and maybe nostoket(if they dont decline to block, little dawn op...) but still could happen i guess.

if you are already wounded (going to torpor) and take one aggravated damage still, you are toast. Aggravated damage is one of those ways where you can kill an undead persistence trap combat deck, of course he will be preventing the aggravated damage with fortitude cards so its kinda moot in a way.

just check the rulebook for clarifications. For each point of damage inflicted on a vampire, he must burn one blood to heal the damage. A vampire can burn all of his blood if needed, and doing so does not have any other negative effects on the vampire. If a vampire cannot heal all the damage (i.e., more damage is inflicted than he has blood with which to heal), he burns blood to heal what damage he can, and the unhealed damage leaves him wounded. A wounded vampire is moved to torpor after the remaining damage is handled (see Torpor, sec. 6.5). Some damage is described as aggravated damage, such as damage from fire or sunlight or from the claws or fangs of some other immortal creatures, including some vampires. Aggravated damage differs from normal damage in two ways: Aggravated damage cannot be healed, and aggravated damage can burn a vampire if that vampire is already wounded. Aggravated damage is damage that a vampire cannot heal. Since it cannot be healed, the vampire doesn't burn any blood to heal it, but instead becomes wounded (unless the damage is prevented, of course). Aggravated damage done to a wounded vampire can burn the vampire outright. A wounded vampire is one that has taken damage that he failed to heal or one that is in torpor or on his way to torpor. For each point of aggravated damage that is successfully inflicted on a wounded vampire, he must burn a blood to prevent his destruction. If he doesn't have enough blood, he is burned. Destruction by this method does not constitute diablerie (see Diablerie, sec. 6.5.5). If both regular damage and aggravated damage are successfully inflicted on a vampire at the same time, the regular damage is handled first. This only applies to unprevented damage; damage prevention effects can be used to prevent the aggravated damage before the normal damage, if the player chooses. If a vampire is wounded, he goes to torpor after all the damage is handled (see Torpor, sec. 6.5). If aggravated damage burns him, he goes directly to the ash heap. He doesn't go through torpor first.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > The rule is, the first agg puts you in torpor, and then you have to burn blood to heal the damage. > No. The rule is that the first point of aggravated damage taken by an unwounded vampire sends them to torpor (wounding them). If the vampire is already wounded, the first point of aggravated damage goes straight to "burn blood to avoid destruction". Thus when on zero blood, receiving one normal damage and one agg damage simultaneously will burn you. e.g. a Wolf Companion plus aggravated hand damage. If you play Undead Persistence, it stops you from going to torpor - but it doesn't make you un-wounded. [LSJ 20050106] So if you receive a point of agg damage afterwards, that can burn you. (Assuming you're empty, you might not be.) This doesn't require a Flamethrower, an Ivory Bow or agg hands for 1 can do it. > ReverendRevolver wrote: > The only reason 1 agg doesnt kill you is the rule is that first point puts you in torpor. > The first point dealt to an unwounded vampire puts them in torpor. > ReverendRevolver wrote: > Gwydd bleeds with kindred spirits, gets blocked, playes dawn op. Opponent is at one blood. Gwydd plays crows, then comas, preventing thexopponents strike with fortitude. > Strike resolution comes before damage handling, so non-damage effects go first. (This is why, for example, 'steal blood' effects move counters before damage is handled.) The opponent takes the Coma in the face, wounding them. The opponent then handles the damage. Assuming Crows was at superior (2 damage) and the hand strike was for 1 damage: The vampire is already wounded, so the first point of aggravated damage takes the blood on the vampire, burned to avoid destruction. The second point of aggravated damage burns the vampire. The third is overkill, since the vampire is now little bits of ash and bone on the floor. > ReverendRevolver wrote: > Itll only ever happen with gwydd, hazimel, una, and maybe nostoket(if they dont decline to block, little dawn op...) but still could happen i guess. > If you're looking for ani/for/dem, yes, there are only a small number of vampires who can do that specific combo. But there are other sources of "go to torpor" strikes, such as Entombment and Rowan Ring. Similarly, there are other sources of aggravated damage you could do alongside it e.g. a Ghoul Retainer plus an Ivory Bow, or side effects from the opponent's own strike (Burst of Sunlight, Eye of Unforgiving Heaven), an exploding Improvised Flamethrower, or someone playing Winged Second. Additionally, it's important to know how damage to an already-wounded vampire is handled for other situations. For example, my Force of Will is unexpectedly blocked. During combat, I get sent to torpor with zero blood from a large non-aggravated strike (for example). After resolution, I take 1 agg damage (superior Force of Will). That burns me, because I'm already wounded.

James explained it well, I couldnt put a better explanation more thorough than he did. So to summariza what he said, yes 1 aggravated damage can burn you so long as enough normal damage was done as well to wound your vampire.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > ReverendRevolver wrote: > > Gwydd bleeds with kindred spirits, gets blocked, playes dawn op. Opponent is at one blood. Gwydd plays crows, then comas, preventing thexopponents strike with fortitude. > > > Strike resolution comes before damage handling, so non-damage effects go first. (This is why, for example, 'steal blood' effects move counters before damage is handled.) > > The opponent takes the Coma in the face, wounding them. > > The opponent then handles the damage. Assuming Crows was at superior (2 damage) and the hand strike was for 1 damage: > > The vampire is already wounded, so the first point of aggravated damage takes the blood on the vampire, burned to avoid destruction. > > The second point of aggravated damage burns the vampire. > > The third is overkill, since the vampire is now little bits of ash and bone on the floor. > What third point ? If Gwyedd is striking with coma, he's not striking "hands" at the same time Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

i admit your right,although the effect is still a burned minion by the two agg damage and Coma.

> Madzar wrote: > > > jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > > > ReverendRevolver wrote: > > > Additionally, it's important to know how damage to an already-wounded vampire is handled for other situations. For example, my Force of Will is unexpectedly blocked. During combat, I get sent to torpor with zero blood from a large non-aggravated strike (for example). After resolution, I take 1 agg damage (superior Force of Will). That burns me, because I'm already wounded. > > > > > > > > What happens if you get sent to torpor with blood still left on the vampire (say via entombment)? Do you get burned or the vampire just loses 1 blood to prevent destruction by Force of will? > > > Rulebook: > > "For each point of aggravated damage that is successfully inflicted on a wounded vampire, he must burn a blood to prevent his destruction." > Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director