Basically, put your idea of masters that are currently unplayable or almost unplayable, but making them trifle would not make them overpowered.
I suggest we do not talk about cards like Gangrel Atavism, Deal with the Devil, which will remain useless anyways unless drastically changed.
My first pick would be Ascendance although i realise many will disagree with this one.
Further:
Gird minions
Short term investment
Secret Horde
Protracted investment
archetypes (exept Perfectionist)
maybe boon cards - i dont see them in play at all, but i am not sure about it, need your opinion
Dont be shy guys. If Minion tap and Sudden reversal could become trifles, i guess there is plenty of other masters to add to the list
> galliard wrote:
> Basically, put your idea of masters that are currently unplayable or almost unplayable, but making them trifle would not make them overpowered.
>
Ok, interesting idea.
> galliard wrote:
> My first pick would be Ascendance although i realise many will disagree with this one.
>
Because it nearly wallpapers Blood Doll, yeah, it's no good.
> galliard wrote:
> Further:
> Short term investment
> Secret Horde
> Protracted investment
> Gird minions
> archetypes (exept Perfectionist)
> maybe boon cards - i dont see them in play at all, but i am not sure about it, need your opinion
>
The "investment" cards could become trifles, sure, I don't see them becoming an issue.
I'd only make Gird Minions into a trifle it it were also Once Per Game. As a trifle, its power would be HUGE in bleed decks, weenie decks, or other lunge-capable decks.
Almost all archetypes are just bad cards. I don't think making them trifles is going to make them better.
> galliard wrote:
> Dont be shy guys. If Minion tap and Sudden reversal could become trifles, i guess there is plenty of other masters to add to the list
>
Villein is MT as a trifle. Wash is *not* SR as a trifle; Wash has serious drawbacks.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
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Only Trophies.
Other "wallpaper" cards won't be un-wallpaperized because they become Trifle. Who wants to play Gangrel Atavism, even if it's a trifle?
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Non-existant user wrote:
> There is no point in changing investments: the hurdle is not the single MPA to put them in play, it is the multiple MPAs to use them.
>
On the contrary, it'd work *perfectly* for Investments, because they could be put into play and then 1 counter removed from them RIGHT AWAY.
Short Term Investment would be, essentially, free.
Protracted Investment would cost 50% less.
etc.
Then they could just sit there until a turn came around when you didn't have a Master, and you could gain 1 blood.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that Investments were MEANT to be played that way, but Trifle just didn't exist yet.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
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> Ankha wrote:
> Only Trophies.
>
Oh man, I'm SO looking forward to playing my Trophy:Progeny deck as Trifles. muhuhaha
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
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I always thought Contract suffered from being a full MPA, but I haven't thought about the ramifications of bad players suddenly deciding that Contract:Trifle was worth playing.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017
> KevinM wrote:
> I always thought Contract and Corruption suffered from being a full MPA, but I haven't thought about the ramifications of bad players suddenly deciding that Corruption:Trifle was worth playing.
>
Corruption master ? What are you talking about ...?
Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
uhhh Original Post Edited
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017
Id say humanitas, liberatus, depravity, coroners contact, regenerative blood,true faith!!!!, census taker, agfressive tactics, temptation of greater power, vulrability and ishtari warlord. Also maybe all the bolt on anarch or black hand masters, except for shakar.
Oh, and maybe all the useless powerbases.
Also possibly last stand.
Definately all the investments.
And not ever, for any reason should misdirectiin be atrifle. Ever.
Oh, and if the gangrel dont get serious crypt love soon, id request ecoterrorists, backways, and gangrel revel all bexmade trifles to help them out.
I was going to suggest children of osiris, artistically inept, and all the clan hosers, but then my brain turned back on and realized theyd still be unplayable.
Maybe vicisstitude poisoning....
Its an error, but at costing 3 pool id almost make that suggestion. Almost.
I was going between here and secret library on my phone, and must have gotten TogP stuck in my head by accident. I think Cairo international was supposed to be in that spot, but i forget already.... should hace wrote stuff down....
> Ankha wrote:
> Only Trophies.
>
> Other "wallpaper" cards won't be un-wallpaperized because they become Trifle. Who wants to play Gangrel Atavism, even if it's a trifle?
>
I wouldn't change trophies.
I would change the Red List mechanic so that marking a Red List minion was done as a trifle master phase action.
When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
How about not changing tonnes of cards? I know I'm not being constructive here, but I'd rather invent new cards than modify existing, more-then-a-decade-old ones...and btw there are a couple of very good archetypes (Monster, Perfectionist, Dubbler, Cavalier and even Capitalist )
NC of Hungary
///
> Malachy wrote:
> How about not changing tonnes of cards? I know I'm not being constructive here, but I'd rather invent new cards than modify existing, more-then-a-decade-old ones...and btw there are a couple of very good archetypes (Monster, Perfectionist, Dubbler, Cavalier and even Capitalist )
>
Its no fair namimg every playable archdtype and saying they are ok.
I saw someone drafg Bravo with Enkido once, that was amusing....
And im all about new cards, but making really underpowered old stuff playable, or even theoretically playable is almost az good as more new cards. True faith beinv worth playing? Who knows, but unlikely.
And investments? Totally coild be trifles, since they are only alan sovern enablers rivht now.
I think aggressive tactics is nearly playable as a trifle, though. Makes it more worth 2 pool, and helpful for disruption strategiez.....
Kiddo nice idea, although dangerous. I like playing weenie monodiscipline decks and i feel i would be overpowered if i didnt have to take parthenons there.
Reverend, you probably didnt think your post very well. Or if you are joking, please dont.
Depravity is imo playable in many decks. ToGP...please man.
The rest might be ok, but you should delete your whole second post about gangrels.
We can wait forever for the expansion. Meanwhile, lets stay serious here and perhaps we can get some new playable cards out of the old ones. And therefore new deck ideas.
If we are super lucky, we may even convince Pascal to some ideas, before PoD comes out, so we can have a couple of new cards already with corrected text.
Nifty idea.
I won't suggest any candidates since I know that the rules team guys know the masters that would need thsi treatment way better than I do.
Finnish Politics!
the hell is your attitude lonkka? those guys are not smarter than we are. maybe some of use play vtes longer than they do.
they just happen to be authorities, but i am sure they are open to suggestions.
so dont be shy to put your candidates for trifle upgrades. just make it balanced
To be fair he didn't say they are smarter than we are - he said they know the masters needing treatment way better than he does, ie. in no way discouraging others from making suggestions.
Personally I'd avoid changing a load of cards though. Maybe investments.
Galiard- im unsurexif the rules team will be too worried about actually making these ideas realized, but im positive pascal wouldt make TogP a trifle because i typed it in its name in place of Cairo intntnl due to my kid not shutting up whil i typed( although wouldnt that we an interezting story.....)
Anyway, Revel costs enogh pool, only grants strength bonus, and burns as an action. It couod be trifle.
Also, there are many cards that would probably still be unplayable, but at least closer if made trifle.
The investments are the most definate cards thiugh.
> galliard wrote:
> the hell is your attitude lonkka? those guys are not smarter than we are.
>
Didn't say that.
I just said that the guys taking care of the rules will be way more qualified for picking out cards that would be in need of this treatment than I.
Didn't know that admitting to your own shortcomings is an attitude.
> galliard wrote:
> maybe some of use play vtes longer than they do.
>
Probably yeah.
Me having played the game from the day it was released still doesn't remove the fact that there are plenty of people who are better and more qualified for that job than me.
It ain't about who has been playing longest but who is best/better qualified.
Finnish Politics!
About disciplines cards....maybe we can solve two issues. Big caps are too expensive in general.
Make it a optional 1 pool costo to make it trifle for vampires of capacity 6 or more. Or 7.
Its hard playing big caps who own one of your disciplines at basic.
I am death.
Paul Kersey, Death Wish
I'm not convinced Master: discipline cards should become trifles. However, I do feel there could be trifle versions of those cards. Why not?
It could be as simple as it costs a pool and it's a trifle. But I'm sure we could come up with some interesting alternatives!
I am going to start another thread about it, since it's tangental to this topic.
EDIT: started a thread here if you are interested.
Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.
Master disciplines that don't increase capacity maybe should trifles. Regular ones ? I don't know about you, but i don't want to improved turbo decks.
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
I'd like to see master disciplines stay as they are now.
I don't feel high caps are hard to play. Most of the time, they can multiact (FD, ruthor) and/or have useful titles and specials, and you can recoup the blood by using minion tap or villein. Why change something as basic when master discipline cards are still alive and played ?
Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
> Reyda wrote:
> I'd like to see master disciplines stay as they are now.
>
> I don't feel high caps are hard to play. Most of the time, they can multiact (FD, ruthor) and/or have useful titles and specials, and you can recoup the blood by using minion tap or villein. Why change something as basic when master discipline cards are still alive and played ?
>
I dont think they are unplayable by any means, id just like something like:
Master trifle
Costs 1 pool
Put this card on a vampire you control and choose a diaciine they dont have. Burn this card at the end of yiur master phase to search your library for a copy of that disciine card, and place it on this vampire.
Unless lb comes back soon.
Also, i think abomwe as trifle is really neat, and id like to not belittle its coolnesz with tio much cluttering csimilar effects
Why 1 pool and not 1 blood?
What specific decks are going to justify additional pool costs for disciplines (which is already built into how vampires are made) just to gain the marginal benefit of trifleness? How many decks that want more disciplines can't justify additional pool costs?
Traveller Card Game
> ICL wrote:
> Why 1 pool and not 1 blood?
>
> What specific decks are going to justify additional pool costs for disciplines (which is already built into how vampires are made) just to gain the marginal benefit of trifleness? How many decks that want more disciplines can't justify additional pool costs?
>
It allows deck thinning, and the pool cost pays for that and the 1 "point" that vampires are typically alotted per thiercost/cap in design.
Again, not bi.ding, and blood may suffice, i waz just thinking itherwise....
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> Master trifle
> Costs 1 pool
> Put this card on a vampire you control and choose a diaciine they dont have. Burn this card at the end of yiur master phase to search your library for a copy of that disciine card, and place it on this vampire.
>
Please stop this. It´s just powercreep, a concept the creator of this thread should try to grasp. It should be avoided at all cost.
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
> Ashur wrote:
>
> > ReverendRevolver wrote:
> > Master trifle
> > Costs 1 pool
> > Put this card on a vampire you control and choose a diaciine they dont have. Burn this card at the end of yiur master phase to search your library for a copy of that disciine card, and place it on this vampire.
> >
> Please stop this. It´s just powercreep, a concept the creator of this thread should try to grasp. It should be avoided at all cost.
>
Say what you will about power creep. I dont like it either.
But earlier parts of this thread had good ideas, like investments, true faith, etc, being trifles.
And if you can break vtes with true faith being a trifle, you are probably my new hero.....
I think "trifle" has gotten a little out of hand.
> Merriam-Webster.com wrote:
> Trifle (tri·fle) noun. 1. : something of little value, substance, or importance
>
Scooping all the blood off a vampire and moving it to your pool is no trifling matter!
(okay, okay, I know, it's a game mechanic, don't take it so literally!)
But it started out intended for weak cards. By using "trifles" you would have the option of using weaker master cards at the expense of a card slot in your deck, rather than costing a full master phase action.
It has since evolved. Now we see some powerful cards that are "trifles" with a higher pool cost, or a higher opportunity cost. You could, in theory, make a trifle version of any current master card and balance it's cost.
I don't really have anything of substance to add. Just rambling here.
Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.
Rather than making existing cards trifke, how about making cards that makes it easier to put trophies (progeny is a problem), disciplines masters and archetypes into play? These cards has keywords that make them easy to target with rules or other cards.
Overkill is highly underrated. You know, like in computor games and such.
> agzocgud wrote:
> Rather than making existing cards trifke, how about making cards that makes it easier to put trophies (progeny is a problem), disciplines masters and archetypes into play? These cards has keywords that make them easy to target with rules or other cards.
>
Damn. If only we had a card that fetched trophies..... redlist rush would be almost playable. If you could readily summon up trophies (2-3would be dine, plus the one you get to fetch without it being in play) it would make an asston of xecks exist, and would make zayyat, Xavier, ezmerelda, and every 9 or 10 cap magaji into a viable combat deck workhorse. Almost making up for thier inability to go anarch without a carded action.
Zayyat is ok now, playable, jist not game winning(in all fairness, i still havent actually assembled any of the like 3 decks ive intended to use him in....) but if he could MotS for an ivory bow, freak drive, and rush a redlist minion with a couple trophies oit, you could stack up trophies revered, domain, and library on him, making him a card drawing, heavy bleed at 2 stealth with no cards needed, and omni blocking machine.
But im confusedxby your other two issues....
We had a card that fetched disciplinez. It was called liliths blessing, and they are working on returning that effect, ifnot that card, to the game.
We HAVE a card that doez that with archetypes. its called guide and mentor, and taxes you for for multilles of the same archetype, as it should, so that you cant get 4 monsters dunkimg 8 minions a turn or 5-6 malks bleedi.g with capitalists and bloating with vessels. Or really even anybody having their whole ready region filled with perfectionists....
I think having more toolup actions that are "trifle actions" like abbot, inferior dual form, and nocturn would be helpful.
Im not talkimg about already powerful cards like black metamorphisis, or preturnatural strength. Im not even talking about almost good cards like masochism, or solid ish cards like lomis gift. Im talking about things that cost blood and dont matter enough to waste an action on often. Shadow of the beast, ablative skin, chill of oblivion, permanancy, and to a lesser extent, ritual challenge, retain the quick blood, and possibly biotaum experiment. Se eral of those should grant immidiate or end of turn untap. That wouod help lots of weak spots....
> agzocgud wrote:
> Rather than making existing cards trifke, how about making cards that makes it easier to put trophies (progeny is a problem), disciplines masters and archetypes into play? These cards has keywords that make them easy to target with rules or other cards.
>
I could have just as easily quoted someone else, but I find the fear of Trophy: Progeny to be perplexing.
Let's see, two tournament winning decks have had more than zero copies. One had three copies and had four other Trophy cards. The other deck was a deck archetype I played against multiple times - I happened to be one of the people who lent Ira some of the 29 copies he played in his deck.
But, let's assume that number of wins understates the power because few people bother to acquire the cards for the deck or build the deck. That deck has a lot of weaknesses. It's far more likely to go off against people who don't understand how it works than people who realize what is going on. And, even when it does "go off", it can still be ousted ... by an Abomination deck bleeding with Jake Washington and Tasha Morgan.
Not to say I am in favor of trifling up T:Progeny or any other Trophy. I find the Red List/Trophy mechanics to be inherently flawed and not to the benefit of the game. But, I wouldn't really care if they did get trifled.
Traveller Card Game
> ICL wrote:
>
> > agzocgud wrote:
> > Rather than making existing cards trifke, how about making cards that makes it easier to put trophies (progeny is a problem), disciplines masters and archetypes into play? These cards has keywords that make them easy to target with rules or other cards.
> >
> I could have just as easily quoted someone else, but I find the fear of Trophy: Progeny to be perplexing.
>
I don't think the suggestion is a fear of it currently. Currently, you can reliably win 1 trophy per successful Red List dunk. If you use a master phase action to play more, you can get more.
If, on the other hand, you could go library-diving to get out Trophies in a manner that was much easier than currently, you could get out multiple Trophy: Progeny, with free blood. Assuming that there was an action to do it, for example, and it was cheaper than just playing your own copy of Third Tradition: Progeny (or equivalent), you could get out a lot of Progeny. This would be especially the case if - as suggested - the library-dive untapped you. e.g.
Cat Missing: Reward Offered
Action, +1 stealth, Requires a titled vampire
Choose a Trophy card by name. If this action is successful, search your library for a copy of that card and put it in play, and untap this acting vampire.
That sort of thing might let weenie breed get somewhat out of control.
There are, of course, ways of avoiding this. e.g.
Choose a Trophy card by name. You cannot choose a card if you already have a copy of that card in play which has not been moved to a vampire.
(It's at times like this you wish the rules defined a term like "awarded" or "unawarded".)
Choose a Trophy card by name. If you choose a card that you control a copy of which has not been moved to a vampire, the cost of this action increases by 1 pool.
IMHO we should limit this thread to Master -> Master Trifle cards... the ones that already exist.
I believe that the investments should be trifled. Trophy's should be reviewed in a "Red List mechanics" and not in this thread.
There are some other master cards that could be playable by this method.