As always, changes contained herein do not go into effect for sanctioned tournaments for 30 days. (So these become active on May 22nd, 2013.)
Rulebook Impulse
The notion of "impulse" has been added to the Rulebook. The "impulse" represents the next opportunity to play a card or use an effect. It respects the Sequencing Rule. Only the player with the impulse can play a card or use an effect.
Additional Strikes
A minion may only gain additional strikes after the initial strike resolution, or after the resolution of one of his or her additional strikes. A minion with unresolved additional strikes cannot gain additional strikes. A minion is limited to gaining additional strikes only from one source each round. A minion cannot pass on using an additional strike.
Cardlist
Some typos were corrected (Lilith’s Blessing reading "Duscipline"). Names of artists were harmonised ("Larry Snelly" becoming "Lawrence Snelly") Incomplete cardtext was completed (The Summoning was missing some characters). No change in other text.
Banned Cards
Lilith’s Blessing Lilith's Blessing has been added to the banned list. An alternative effect to bring its mechanics back to the tournament game is being investigated, and the card will be reintroduced once a solution has been found and tested thouroughly.
Complete Rules Reference
Some clean-up (that was necessary) - removal of outdated references, alignment with the Rulebook.A complete list will be available soon.
General Rulings
I have started including all the valid rulings I encounter (either here on vekn.net or in the Newsgroup) to the Card Rulings page. My objective here is to have that page become more of a database than a simple page. The long-term goal is to have it integrated in tools such as the SecretLibrary or VampiDroid. This will require some changes in the tables, to properly cross-reference cards, rules, and rulings.
A "complete" (as far as the word applies to on-going processes) will be available soon.
> Non-existant user wrote:
> I guess it is mostly about how to play Quickness.
>
and hell for leather /cel ability.
and also Jacko
and maybe also Battle Frenzy
Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
> Reyda wrote:
>
> > Non-existant user wrote:
> > I guess it is mostly about how to play Quickness.
> >
> and hell for leather /cel ability.
> and also Jacko
> and maybe also Battle Frenzy
>
Ah, so, if anarch jacko is impersonating osebo, and he has a battle frenzy, he has to use his initial strike, let it resolve, use his built in free additional, let it resolve, use battle frenzy free additional, let it resolve, play quickness, let it resolve, play hell for leather, let it resolve, THEN play blur. Correct? (And this could all happen, maybe 2 times a decade. Maybe....)
But they key is multie free additional strikes cant get added until he initial strike is resolved, and only one free additional effect can be played and resolved at a time. Right?
> jozxyqk wrote:
> I'm a little bit confused about the Additional Strikes ruling.
> What am I missing here that's new?
>
Resolves the ambiguity in the rule book discussed in this thread:
vekn.net/index.php/forum/6-rules-questions/41472-additional-strikes#41472
Pascal, for those of us not following things more closely, can you share any reasons why Lilith's Blessing was banned?
I guess the answer is power level, but I'm not sure. It seems like there are other cards (or even Master cards) that may be more powerful, depending on how you want to judge "power level."
As always, thank you for the great work that you're doing! It is a huge help to the game!
Ira
Ira, lilliths blessing reached the autoinclude point. The problem is NOT lilliths blessing per se, but it is broken alongside villein. As are so many other cards. Which again points out that Vilein is the problem, but (resume beating a dead horse into the distance)
However the combo of bring out arika, gain 11 pool via villein, arika becomes a twelve cap, call ancient influence? yeah thats a little bit strong
And this is but one of the many ways it was broken in. So not power level but the brokenness alongside vilein
> jozxyqk wrote:
> I'm a little bit confused about the Additional Strikes ruling.
> What am I missing here that's new?
>
The additional strikes ruling is, I think, partly a result of the Additional Strikes disucssion from Nov last year. Specifically, the scenario presented here , which rather surprised a lot of people, is explicitly disallowed.
--
National Coordinator
South Africa
> drnlmza wrote:
>
> > jozxyqk wrote:
> > I'm a little bit confused about the Additional Strikes ruling.
> > What am I missing here that's new?
> >
> The additional strikes ruling is, I think, partly a result of the Additional Strikes disucssion from Nov last year. Specifically, the scenario presented here , which rather surprised a lot of people, is explicitly disallowed.
>
Correct.
That one needed explicit clarification.
Kinda bummed... I just traded some pretty decent stuff for some Lilith's blessing. Yes, I know all VTES players in the known universe had them out the wazoo but I did not.
> Lambach wrote:
> Kinda bummed... I just traded some pretty decent stuff for some Lilith's blessing. Yes, I know all VTES players in the known universe had them out the wazoo but I did not.
>
Just wait, i bet it will be legal to play in reasonable timeframe. It will be bit weaker, but i have no doubt it will be playable. It's not PTO, RTI or Madness of the Bard.
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
Thanks for the clarification on why the Additional Strikes ruling was needed, everyone.
It still seems like the official ruling was the way I always intuitively played these kinds of effects, but it's nice to know that this is not a major change to the rules.
> Blooded wrote:
> Ira, lilliths blessing reached the autoinclude point.
>
While that may have been Pascal's reason, that's not supported by the evidence. I just looked at the March 2013 Tournament Winning decks, and we find:
19 decks
16 include Pentex
10 include on the que vive
5 include lilith's blessing
I included on the que vive as a point of reference.
I continue to hope that Pascal will respond directly and provide some insight.
Ira
Didn't Ben Swainbank design Lilith's Blessing for his final storyline?
I think the plan was to include some anti-Bahari tech in followup storylines but then that wasn't meant to be.
And then people figured out how to easily exploit it to put more counters on the table in regular play.
Really, all Lilith's needs for a balancing factor is a couple of cards that say "Do a thing, or do a nastier thing to Bahari".
> jozxyqk wrote:
> Really, all Lilith's needs for a balancing factor is a couple of cards that say "Do a thing, or do a nastier thing to Bahari".
>
Since we don't currently have a nailed-down method of releasing new cards, that's tricky. And at some point, you might just say "Look, we'll do this for now as a sticking plaster." Who knows, it's possible FZD is formulating some new anti-Bahari tech as we, uh, type, but can't print them right now.
But it's not a trouble-free answer. On a simple point, if people have to alter their decks to provide sufficient counters to one card, it's probably suggesting that the card itself is an issue.
Also, however, you end up in a design minefield. You want the card to be good enough to include in sufficiently decent mainstream decks. If the main vehicle for that is to make it a possible include in good Tier 1, 1.5-ish decks, you're competing against some very good cards, so the power-level of the card needs to be quite good. Say, am I about to swap out Banishment for a new vote? Pentex Subversion? Bum's Rush? Mind Rape? Deflection?
Now, you might be able to craft a card that boosted a Tier 2 or 3 deckstyle into something more competitive (say a killer card that makes Thanatosis more playable). But if you're relying on less competitive decks to include the card (say, a Tier 2 deck that stays Tier 2 when playing it), you can end up with non-trivial design headaches, because the Tier 1 decks don't have to adjust at all and can come out of the equation relatively stronger - they get all the discouragement value of lots of anti-Bahari tech being present in the game, without paying the price. (See also: iterative Prisoner's Dilemma scenarios.)
Why's there a price? Typically, the standard design 'algorithm' tends to mean that if you don't want to wallpaper an existing card, you have to have some pluses and minuses. Say you end up with Bum's Rush where the combat is especially punishing against Bahari vampires. To compensate, you put some sort of drawback so that in the mainline case, it's not quite as good as normal. If you Deflection-esque-clone is better when you're being bled by a Bahari, it's probably going to be worse when you're being bled by a normal Arika.
One alternative is that you end up with a bunch of cards that just wallpaper a handful of existing, commonly-played cards. There's no downside to playing Old Card vs New Anti Bahari Card, so you just play that. Enough of them end up in common circulation that playing Lilith's Blessing just becomes a no-go - so really, why bother printing those cards, just ban Lilith's?
Another alternative is similar, but aim squarely at not-Tier-1 cards. So the Tier 2 deck gets a card that is outright better than its current tech, but which is still substandard. This might not happen altogether intentionally - it is the sort of thing that can easily happen when you try to create a card that empowers a new Tier 1.5 strategy, but which fails to do so in actual play. (And how many cards have been released over the years which fail to deliver in reality? More than a few.)
It really isn't that easy to make a card that can provide a meaningful choice for deck-building, such that Lilith's Blessing is still a meaningful choice, where everyone concerned can weigh up pros and cons. You want things that engage people without being an insta-include or instantly dismissed, which is competitive without being broken, preferably which isn't just a silver bullet - and that's really not an easy balance to strike.
Well, thats the primary design herdle from the beginning, isnt it?
Lilitns, like ashurs, like anthelios, like anson, like anything else, is intendex for one ourpose that isnt broken, and you add enough together they become an unstopably well oiled machine.
Its not as easy to see with forsight in making the cards. Into thin air clearly needed not to go with lost in crowds. Liliths et all werent obviously broken, just plainly useful.
The solution is banning, possibly temporarily before changing it, but the issue is still that changing a liftle bit of its words return it to being useful instead of broken.
We will see wherexthis all goes though.
> Klaital wrote:
> Anthelios and Ashur Tablets still weren't banned though. :/
>
IMHO, if ashur tablets are reprinted at some future time, the decks that rely heavily on them will run into problems because of the "remove all other copies in play" clause. More people will play them and thus getting three out may become less reliable.
> TorranceCircle wrote:
>
> > Klaital wrote:
> > Anthelios and Ashur Tablets still weren't banned though. :/
> >
> IMHO, if ashur tablets are reprinted at some future time, the decks that rely heavily on them will run into problems because of the "remove all other copies in play" clause. More people will play them and thus getting three out may become less reliable.
>
So the game would turn even more in the ugly "who-plays-more-masters-per-turn" race that is now, which imho isn't desiderable at all: the errata making ashur to retrieve just (less) minion cards is much needed and desiderable instead
Emiliano
vekn.net administrators staff
> nc-italy wrote:
> So the game would turn even more in the ugly "who-plays-more-masters-per-turn" race that is now, which imho isn't desiderable at all: the errata making ashur to retrieve just (less) minion cards is much needed and desiderable instead
>
What makes you believe that changing Ashur so that it retrieves fewer cards and/or only minion cards would make Ashur no longer in the "who-plays-more-masters-per-turn" race? I think it'd be just as played, in almost as many decks.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017
> KevinM wrote:
>
> > nc-italy wrote:
> > So the game would turn even more in the ugly "who-plays-more-masters-per-turn" race that is now, which imho isn't desiderable at all: the errata making ashur to retrieve just (less) minion cards is much needed and desiderable instead
> >
> What makes you believe that changing Ashur so that it retrieves fewer cards and/or only minion cards would make Ashur no longer in the "who-plays-more-masters-per-turn" race? I think it'd be just as played, in almost as many decks.
>
The fact that restricting the tech to minion-only is by definition
a restriction, so the "retrival race" game would be restricted
to more specialized (minion cards) decks (say: choirs) and by that the omni-all-good module with master-pool-retrival tech that is now with the current ashurs would be no more (which is indeed much desiderable)
Emiliano
vekn.net administrators staff
So they fish Ashur Tablets back with Anthelios. Sure it does slow it down, but its not ending the problem of timing out games.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
Tablets not fishing up events or masters would in fact let decks that do not abuse it, like combat, which already needs help, and the concept of decks being slimmed with recursion ( still cheating, but less so than other uses).
Girls decks bloat with liquidation and pick up anything they want that was lost as collateral with tablets. They lose their anthelios? Pick uo with tablets. Lost a pentex? Tablets. Had to discard a villen now needed to live because of aksynia? Tablets. Oh, anf its all thosexat once.
Anthelios used to be annoying because imbued reused one freaking di for like 6 turns. But anthelios makesyou at leazt discard, and if you cant get it back with tablets, it is less pure win.
Kevin, i never play with you since you run all of the origins events i make it to, and havent seen yiu play since the nac in new orleans, but how many decks have you seen run ashurs other than girls decks that make you say nearly all of them would still run it? I dont recall ever being at a table with you with any of my ashur using decks(anson second trad guns, g2 gargoyle combat, ruth mcginley dbr, or weenie prezence fortitude flash grenades with pentinent resilience) and ive seen nearly nobody use tablets at a tournament in the last 2 years almost that werent running girls or at least comboing with liquidation( which allows for cheating level deck and hand optimization).
I dont see how girls decks get theirxmilage anymore if its just minion cards
Also, are convictions technically minion cards? I know they dont have problems recurring, but just wondering.
Anthelios is still good for mmpa decks, but if they straight dont have liliths, they return to earlier versions, and without tablets being their crutch, their bloat enging becomes villeins for 7-8 and really risky liquidations.
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> Also, are convictions technically minion cards? I know they dont have problems recurring, but just wondering.
>
No, convictions are their own card type (neither master or minion). From the NoR rules:
Rule: Conviction is a new card type. It is played in the untap phase, so it is an "untap" card, not a master or minion or discard (event) card....
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
> TorranceCircle wrote:
>
> > Klaital wrote:
> > Anthelios and Ashur Tablets still weren't banned though. :/
> >
> IMHO, if ashur tablets are reprinted at some future time, the decks that rely heavily on them will run into problems because of the "remove all other copies in play" clause. More people will play them and thus getting three out may become less reliable.
>
Even with 3 people on a table playing Ashurs I rarely see the race condition having a significant effect.
> Lambach wrote:
> Kinda bummed... I just traded some pretty decent stuff for some Lilith's blessing. Yes, I know all VTES players in the known universe had them out the wazoo but I did not.
>
Don´t know which country / city you are from but in Europe / US this was a pretty widely available promo card.
> Lambach wrote:
> Kinda bummed... I just traded some pretty decent stuff for some Lilith's blessing. Yes, I know all VTES players in the known universe had them out the wazoo but I did not.
>
Well, the same happened to me with PTO and Memory. But at least, Lilith's Blessing may come back
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> johannes wrote:
>
> > Lambach wrote:
> > Kinda bummed... I just traded some pretty decent stuff for some Lilith's blessing. Yes, I know all VTES players in the known universe had them out the wazoo but I did not.
> >
> Don´t know which country / city you are from but in Europe / US this was a pretty widely available promo card.
>
It was available from what i had seen beginning around when heirs was released, and the first two tournaments i played in locally i got one each time. Then thry were gone. I picked up 2 at the NAC in new orleans that year, and we had arrived early. Once i took 2, 3' or less were left, and this was the evening before events were underway.
After that, it was really spotty with its availability in any tournament i attended. Granted, thats only ohio tournaments, except maybe 2 a few states aways, but lilliths was immidiately a combo card people had ideas for.
It wasnt infamous insurgent, or rubicon. You never saw someone saying " ill never use this" and giving it away, and if it was a grab what you want prize system, liliths were the first empty space among stacks.
It was available, but even being active in tounaments not localized to one meta when it was available, i only managed to get enough for two decks, and thats more than many players got.
Anyway, thats the reason people comain about how hard it was to get, then have to buy them or had to trade stupid for them.
Johannes is entirely right about availability, on the supply side, but there was really high demand for something that lets you fetch skill cards or cockroach play as you wish.
Its banned for now, and while im sure id be even less happy if i spent $10 a pop on them( i already lose my malkavian antitribbu potence deck and have to rebuild one of my gotsdam decks) i think at the very least, a lesson about future promos will have been learned by the scarcity of LB and POD is the already coming into existence way to avoid similar issues in the future.
But, LB availability issues is no different than promo vamps being harx to find for new players when, lets say, Fatima isnt exactly easy to track down either. So, its a known issue that POD fixes, revardless of other factors.
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> It was available, but even being active in tounaments not localized to one meta when it was available, i only managed to get enough for two decks, and thats more than many players got.
>
I am pretty sure it was/is available through tournament packs from David Tatu. No?
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> Anyway, thats the reason people comain about how hard it was to get, then have to buy them or had to trade stupid for them.
>
I gave away four per player at Origins for the last two years, and they were $4-6 for years on eBay.
They weren't difficult to acquire, not at all. But this is pretty much my canned response to $4-6 cards that people complain that they are unable to obtain.
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017
> KevinM wrote:
>
> > ReverendRevolver wrote:
> > Anyway, thats the reason people comain about how hard it was to get, then have to buy them or had to trade stupid for them.
> >
> I gave away four per player at Origins for the last two years, and they were $4-6 for years on eBay.
>
> They weren't difficult to acquire, not at all. But this is pretty much my canned response to $4-6 cards that people complain that they are unable to obtain.
>
At which events? I helped you stack the support day 1 last year, and i dont recall seeing it. Not to say it wasnt there, i just dont remember it. Kind of moot for this year i suppose...(edit, if i find it among the promos i gave my wife, all complaining about its scarcity in this part of the united states is moot)
The year before i made final table at shadow twin and didnt get my stuff until another player gave it to me, so i cant say for sure with that year... i think the actual qualified players got lb promos that year for sure, but its normally not ppl i see every year at origins griping about not having it ( odd, since all but the forums users ive heard gripe live in the state origins is held in...)
@ johannes, it might be, but i got the 4 i needed the first year, and i felt no need to get more.
Hell, you cant swing a dead cat in ohio without hitting a prince, so i feel no need to be one and organize prize support, short of helping organizers distribute it.
It wasnt as easy to get as junk cards, people whined, i found what i needed.
Az soon as PoD is running, people overpaying for promos shouldnt happen anyway, i suppose.
> Additional Strikes
> A minion may only gain additional strikes after the initial strike resolution, or after the resolution of one of his or her additional strikes. A minion with unresolved additional strikes cannot gain additional strikes. A minion is limited to gaining additional strikes only from one source each round. A minion cannot pass on using an additional strike.
>
Does this have any effect on
Octopod
>
> Requires a ready Blood Brother of the same circle as another one in combat. Can be used by a vampire even if he or she is not involved in the combat.
> [san] Only usable before range is chosen. The Blood Brother in combat gets an additional strike each round this combat.
> [SAN] As [san] above but with two additional strikes each round.
>
or
Vial of Garou Blood
>
> Equipment. A vampire with this Vial may burn this card before range is chosen in a round of combat. If he or she does so, he or she gets +1 strength and an additional strike each round for the remainder of combat, and he or she cannot use other equipment cards for the remainder of combat.
>
?
I think it does, if only in the context of the strikes resolving before you could, for intance, play hell for leather at cel with an anarch blood bother, or "use" jackos additional if hexjust chugged garou blood.
Even if the effect of a card like octopod, garou blood, or black metamorphisis ives you an additional strike before you have resolved even you initial strike, you cant access/ use said additional until the initial strike resolves, and since you have pending additionals, you cant play any freebie additional strikes until your done with your pending ones.
Im pretty sure the same applies to infernal Dragos playing fractura at base striga for x=487 .
He has acess to initial strike + up to 487 additional hand strikes, but they eqch must resolve beforexthexnext is even accessed.
Where I can donwload the updated card list?
Fernando Cesar - Sydnelson
LackeyCCG and OCTGN VtES Mantainer
Prince of Rio de Janeiro
Powerbase Rio de Janeiro
> Sydnelson wrote:
> Where I can donwload the updated card list?
>
As always: www.vekn.net/index.php/downloads
There's no newer version available.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > Sydnelson wrote:
> > Where I can donwload the updated card list?
> >
> As always: www.vekn.net/index.php/downloads
> There's no newer version available.
>
Seens the list on tha page is more new than the page you point.
Thanks anyway
Fernando Cesar - Sydnelson
LackeyCCG and OCTGN VtES Mantainer
Prince of Rio de Janeiro
Powerbase Rio de Janeiro
> Sydnelson wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> >
> > > Sydnelson wrote:
> > > Where I can donwload the updated card list?
> > >
> > As always: www.vekn.net/index.php/downloads
> > There's no newer version available.
> >
> Seens the list on tha page is more new than the page you point.
>
> Thanks anyway
>
Do you mean www.vekn.net/index.php/card-lists ?
You're right (though they should be the same).
I've updated the download page so it redirects to the Card lists page.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Yes, this page, forgot to paste the link.
Fernando Cesar - Sydnelson
LackeyCCG and OCTGN VtES Mantainer
Prince of Rio de Janeiro
Powerbase Rio de Janeiro