Dear fellow Methuselahs,
It has been awfully quiet around the V:EKN so here comes a much awaited and needed update. And there is good news, the project of bringing V:TES back into print through a print-on-demand program with Onebookshelf, Inc. is advancing well. There are and have been a couple of difficulties to tackle: the printing process and quality, as well as dealing with two licensing parties (CCP and WotC).
CCP has agreed in principle to the license. Wizards first required us to demonstrate that the card quality can be achieved. We have now passed this milestone. We now continue to work with Wizards business team to agree in principle to license terms. If Wizards agree, then we will proceed to work through the legal departments at both CCP and Wizards, which can take some time. We are making progress, but it is a slow process.
A lot of the ideas gathered from the marketing teams survey and personal conversations have been gathered from the player base and they have been the foundation of the customer commercial side of the program. As soon as the deal is coming together and financials are more clear we will start leaking details, such as pricing and ordering options to you. I might also add that our rules team is working on many detailed card text updates so all of the POD cards will have the latest text versions on them, many of them incorporating clarifications and errata given by LSJ or Pascal. It seems currently that not all of the 3500 something cards will be available from the get-go, especially since all of the cards will have the same (latest) layout. So it will be a gradual process of adding cards, new to old, as the old cards get re-layouted (a very time consuming and tedious task).
In the meantime we have put the PDF release of Danse Macabre on ice and will wait for the POD program to release the set, which seems to be the preferred option with the majority of players. Nevertheless there will be some previews of cards over the next months and of course you are free to play them yourself at your own discretion, unless playing in a sanctioned tournament of course.
In other news the preparation of the European Championship is going on very well and a venue has been found, more details to come from the organisation team.
Qualifier shirts have been produced in cooperation between the marketing team and vtes.de and can be ordered in qualifier packs .
North American Championship has found its permanent home in Origins so of course this will be the same fantastic and worthwhile experience as in previous years. Kevin Mergen is working on a plan to provide people with the 2013 qualifier shirts on preorder, check out the poll on Facebook
The team working on the new rating integration with Archon upload functionality has now fixed a date for public release, which will be Sunday May 5th. This will not only include the website functionality, but also a (required) new version of The Archon and some detailed use guidelines.
Last but not least there is a new rules update coming, Pascal is currently finalizing it and it should be up by the weekend.
So, again, apologies for the long silence, I promise more frequent updates.
Johannes Walch
V:EKN Chairman
V:EKN Website Coordinator
That is excellent news and well worth patiently waiting for!
I think it will be something that can greatly bolster the chances of attracting new and old players into the fold, the ability to buy what you want, when you want, to build the decks you want to play, not just the decks you can perhaps scrimp together from a dwindling repository of available cards.
As a fairly recently returned player, who has probably spent far more on building up my newly acquired current collection than I should have, I still welcome this excellent news even if does potentially diminish their worth...
regards,
Simon B aka Simidh
Great news. I suspect that there are just a few individuals who will be working on uploading and converting old cards to the new format, but this might be an area where you could draw on the wider community: you could almost certainly find volunteers to help out. That would depend on the software being used, among other things, but it might speed things along.
> Johannes wrote:
> In the meantime we have put the PDF release of Danse Macabre on ice and will wait for the POD program to release the set, which seems to be the preferred option with the majority of players. Nevertheless there will be some previews of cards over the next months and of course you are free to play them yourself at your own discretion, unless playing in a sanctioned tournament of course.
>
The current stumbling block with previews (and a PDF release in its entirety) is what copyright notice to put on the Danse Macabre cards. The material is ultimately owned by CCP (White Wolf) and Hasbro (Wizards), and the work we've done is very clearly derived from their property and not sufficiently original and copyrightable on its own for another party to claim ownership. Although CCP has agreed in principle and we're awaiting Hasbro's agreement in principle, no licenses/contracts/etc. have been signed. We don't want to be presumptuous or jeopardize the license negotiations by publicly publishing material we don't have the licenses for. We're discussing the matter with Steve Wieck and OneBookshelf.com to see what our options are. Depending on the state of negotiations and depending on the legal bits, we might be able to put "Copyright CCP and Hasbro" or "Copyright OneBookshelf.com" or such on the cards. Once that's sorted out, we'll get the previews going.
- Ben Peal
Design Team Leader
Thanks, guys, for this much-awaited update - which turned out to be far better than "Nothing to say". B-)
"It was a perfect plan - until it had contact with reality"
---
Hardy Range
Playgroup Tradition Compliance Manager
Here is my impression of the post, please correct if I am wrong.
Sometime in the future there is a chance that: V:TES will start up again. Most of the cards will be available from an online website. People will purchase the individual cards they want, and the web site will print and ship to order.
Please let me know if I am misunderstanding anything, and also thank you very much for the update.
> gymim wrote:
> Here is my impression of the post, please correct if I am wrong.
>
> Sometime in the future there is a chance that: V:TES will start up again. Most of the cards will be available from an online website. People will purchase the individual cards they want, and the web site will print and ship to order.
>
> Please let me know if I am misunderstanding anything, and also thank you very much for the update.
>
more or less but yes
> johannes wrote:
> I might also add that "sometime in the future" will not be in 5 years. I am hoping for something to happen in 2013.
>
Wow. That would be optimal. I didnt expect things to be realized until early next year.
Am I inferring correctly that hasbro agreeing in principle is taking longer than ccp did, and the tediius work of preparing for the project has already been started, so that once hasbro gives thier blessing, everything can be pushed to the "we need permission in writing and then we are go" stage?
I must not be the only one to greet these news with ambivalent feelings, right?
What will happen with the leftover boosters? They will be worth nothing if (almost) all of the cards will be available for 50 cents... The prices plummeting a hundredfold (a reality in some cases) will surely make not one person mad about their previous investment now worth a dime. While regarding the greater picture I can understand the reprinting of some much needed cards (like Argus, Villein, No Trace, Deep Song, etc. which would still make fun of people who have many copies of these), why is there a need to reprint "not all" of them? And to make them available for the same price even (as a Tortured Confession)? Will this decision make V:tES into an LCG?
Not that this would be the first time V:tES players encounter a drop in the value of their much-treasured cards (LotN, 3rd).
I have more than 30k cards and I really don't care with the "Market Price". Do you think that you will have a market if no one else plays the game? - Do you really think that you can find new players willing to pay a ton of money to play a dead game?
For collectors... the expansion symbol will be different.
And collectors that still want the cards from the original series.
But yeah, as soon as cards are in the print on demand, their price will fall.
I really don't care. In fact I welcome it, as it will boost the number of players.
I have spent an extraordinary amount of money on this game, more than anything else to the point i dropped all the other card games (Magic, L5r, warlord), but i welcome the idea of reprinting cards and giving newbies the chance to improve their decks.
Sure prices will probably suffer. I dont mind really, because i prefer a game which is thriving than a dead game that loses players every year. Although maybe the process of ordering reprints should be debated. I dont think it should be per card as the logistics of that is crazy, maybe sold in kits/chapter packs or storyline kits.
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Wow, the updating of all the card texts seems to be a giganourmous chore. So stupendous amount of respect goes to people involved with that!
Talking legaleze with not just one but several business entities also tends to eat up a lot of time. Especially when you imagine that at least for one of them this probably doesn't rank that high on the importance meter. Hence it gives the feeling for the general playerbase that "nothing is happening".
Finnish Politics!
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> Am I inferring correctly that hasbro agreeing in principle is taking longer than ccp did, and the tediius work of preparing for the project has already been started, so that once hasbro gives thier blessing, everything can be pushed to the "we need permission in writing and then we are go" stage?
>
Let me put it like this: as soon as all the paperwork is done the realization of the project will be relatively quick. Some of the parameters depend on the paperwork, of course (say royalties).
Awesome, thank you.
As for the resale value, i could care less about all my cards if i had noone to play with.period. if you want peices of paper that retain value and arent involved in a game, try stocks and bonds. Although theres some risk with those too, shit happens, its in fact one of the few constants in life.
If you wanted to invest in cards that will never be reprinted, wotc has a list of those for magic the $$$ so look into moxs and black boarxered dual lands.
Now, i still plan on buying cards from sellers like rickstock even once pod is swinging. Why? Its impractical to buy sense deps fir $5-$17 when pod ones are lesz than a buck, and its impractical to pick up mario giovanni for more than 20cents. But mostly, if i have a crypt of all the old layout, why not keep it as such.
That said, most of my card buying will be pod, hands down, if not all of it for a year or so.
Id even pay more for rares, although i know vekn may tbink it immoral to do tbat.
And im still in favor of special alternate art cards for prizes and promos.
But thats awhile away. Right now im just looking forward to print on demand becoming a reality. I may actually get to build what i want now. Arika purge with cogs! Turbo slava with cogs! (Allasto for the gem, obvisously) gwydx summin history! A return of vtes to its natural state of limitlesz possibilities, and without small sets being released giving you 3 of each usecul vamp and 218 copies of cadet.
This is awesome.
End of story.
> wesile wrote:
> I have more than 30k cards and I really don't care with the "Market Price". Do you think that you will have a market if no one else plays the game? - Do you really think that you can find new players willing to pay a ton of money to play a dead game?
>
> For collectors... the expansion symbol will be different.
>
This describes me exactly, well said.
> Damnans wrote:
> It seems currently that not all of the 3500 something cards will be available from the get-go, especially since all of the cards will have the same (latest) layout. So it will be a gradual process of adding cards, new to old, as the old cards get re-layouted (a very time consuming and tedious task).
>
What's the situation with artwork? I appreciate the specifics may vary from card to card, of course, but in general.
Are most pieces of artwork available for reprinting? Were there temporary licenses that have expired or can't be transferred to a third-party? Are we likely to be talking about scans of cards for artwork from the WotC era, rather than originals (or scans of originals)? And/or sourcing new art, of course. I'd just be interested to know if we're talking 5 pieces of new art or 500 - ballpark figures.
I'd like to point out that I'd be delighted to pay more for Rares, a little more for Vamps and Uncommons, and not much for Commons. Having a graduated pricing scale just makes sense.
On the other hand, it'll be interesting to see the 60-Freak Drive March Halcyon Turbo Withdrawal deck actually hit the table.
IMHO, it would is not sensible to pay more for rares as they differ vastly in playability. Furthermore, as long as feedback is concerned, people are more concerned with particular combos, not rarity.
Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.
as has been said before in other places, the secondary market is largely irrelevant; the health of the game is paramount.
I for one, welcome our new POD overlords. the way the game plays, I think it's far better suited in the LCG format as opposed to the CCG format.
On the subject of artwork, im sure we can make it interesting when the time comes in regards to new art.
Several vekn members are solid artists. I am decidedly NOT one of those members, but have friends who are indeex excellent with art. One of them is a photographer, and stylistically he enjoys editing things in strange ways that could easily fit into the theme of most vtes artwork. Another friend of mine is a tatooist and he has become very good in coverups and corrections to other peoples horrible tattoos, and hes a horror fan, and im sure hed be atleast marfinaly interested in potential work.
The reason i bring this up is im sure some artwork may not be legally usable, and some could just use updating.
Parity shift is for example probably something most players want 50 or so of, and will be ordering it accordingly when able to do so for pod price. So, would it not be interesting to give it new art, if its not already going to need that for legal reasons anyway?
Following that thought, why not have the dt select maybe 5 submissions for said card and have it voted upon?
Just an idea.
ReverendRevolver,
What is more likely to happen is that artwork will be needed for cards whose original art or original scans are damaged or lost, or for artwork that we can't get the rights to. Otherwise, from a business perspective, money is best spent on artwork for new cards, as high-quality artwork that is budget-conscious is in short supply. Don't get me wrong - it's a good idea in principle, and I'd love to get new art for some cards. It's just going to be lower on the list of priorities and budget allocation.
I had assumed it wasnt high on the priorities list compared to the entire rest of the project.
To be honest, if i can buy enkil cogs and purges for less than a buck each, the art could be a hand turkey and a frowny face.
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> I had assumed it wasnt high on the priorities list compared to the entire rest of the project.
>
furthermore, I'm sure a vtes fan would gladly accept payment for their art in store credit and bragging rights to see their art in print.
> self wrote:
> furthermore, I'm sure a vtes fan would gladly accept payment for their art in store credit and bragging rights to see their art in print.
>
Get on it.
www.vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/36476-guidelines-for-art-submissions
> self wrote:
> while i have many talents, Adonai, that kind of artistry is not really my forté.
>
Yea, i have the same problem. I would gladly have submitted tons of stuff, if i had any drawing or digital art ability in me. Theres a reason im a musician and not a cartoonist....
But i may talk to some peoplexwho were vtm fans about submissions.
> wesile wrote:
> Artwork its important but not paramount...
>
> Look at Fake Out, Consanguineous, and others like that...
>
> New Arika:
>
Not vulgar enough for the queen of sleeze.....
Maybe if she were holding a pineapple and a krochet mallet with malicious intent.....
> edminister wrote:
> I am hoping that not all cards will be immediately available is just a nice way of saying, screw the imbued.
>
The only NoR cards i neex are some of each conviction and 20 copies of Beatrice Tremblay. The others dont neex printed
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
>
> > edminister wrote:
> > I am hoping that not all cards will be immediately available is just a nice way of saying, screw the imbued.
> >
> The only NoR cards i neex are some of each conviction and 20 copies of Beatrice Tremblay. The others dont neex printed
>
BREAK THE CODE!
Great anti-Imbued card. More importantly, it's easy to get into play for other Gehenna events. Course some people might want to see Gehenna events go after the Imbued get the boot....
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
Eric, we all need more draonbound in our lives
And i like unmasking, just not for imbued.
And im fond or fueled by hearts blood.
Can we ban becoming of ennoia? Just so we dont have to print any more of it?
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> Can we ban becoming of ennoia? Just so we dont have to print any more of it?
>
Playtest version of Becoming of Ennoia wasn't so bad.
Throughout all of playtest, it was simply "requires two Gehenna events in play." During playtest it was never the more restrictive printed version of "requires two Gehenna events controlled by others."
Also, until the final round, it prevented Earth Meld from being played at all (rather than costing 2 additional blood).
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
> echiang wrote:
> Throughout all of playtest, it was simply "requires two Gehenna events in play." During playtest it was never the more restrictive printed version of "requires two Gehenna events controlled by others."
>
> Also, until the final round, it prevented Earth Meld from being played at all (rather than costing 2 additional blood).
>
This card is unbelievably bad. I don´t even understand what the initial idea of it was. Like "How does this card address a compelling game need?"
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
While plenty of other things dont meet a game need, from what i understand, many people were still crying about how "unfair" it was majesty was changed to costing at either level, but earth meld stayed free(its protean, get the hell over it....). So, bOe was made to "fix" the complaints. I have no idea why, fluff wise, the events must be controlled by other methuselahs, as it barwly makez sense on the one dhamphir in all of vtes, but the card is the biggezt joke ever printed in red. And im including body of sun in that classification.
But if it were as eric describes early versions, it would be slightly less of a joke. And hose decks already probably working with very little. Its protean, its a support discipline. It does things at a blood cost that verything else pretty much can do cheaper. It also has like a billion agg poke cards. And the most efficient sce in the whole game. At least give it SOMETHING efficient, so earth melds fine in my book.
The Gehenna events were created to tie into the RPG's Gehenna releases, and represent the events in the book(s) with cards. Sure fire way to introduce bad cards.
> Dorrinal wrote:
> The Gehenna events were created to tie into the RPG's Gehenna releases, and represent the events in the book(s) with cards. Sure fire way to introduce bad cards.
>
damn shame it happened with gahenna and the reckoning. If we could have had better tie ins, imafine how the game wouldve been...
Yearxof the scarab, we coulda gotten Amenti ( mummy allies that coulda had access to base versions of disciplinez to simulate thier haiku or whatever, they are ctypt cardd like imbued, but when they are burned, roll a 6 sided die and they come back in that many turns)
Hell, maybe when orpheous came out they coulda given necromancy some useful cards and allies.
Or in conjunction with NoR, add some risen allies.
KotE would SUCK in vtes, but any other splat, and it could work. Imbued were too much, and gahenna cards were kinda all over the place in utility. I am thankful cards like the rising were balanced well thoug, in later sets, and some events are still cool.
Sad to say, but i think imbued are not gonna get any more help/ printed shit, and neither are any splat getting crypt cards but vamps from here on out.
But we COULD benefot from some vamps that xhurn out a given type of ally easily. An Abomination that recruits any werewolf at one less cost, a nagaraja who recruits any wraith or zombie at one less, and or a baali who does that with demons. Possibly a kiasyd that does so as well, but since theres only 2 changeling allies and 1 retainer kiasyd cant use right now, i dont think that matters as much.
Ally are already too important for my taste, so anything that recruit more easily allies is a bad idea in my humble opinion.
I find your mummy idea especially jarring, since thoses mummy are ennemy of kindred, extremely low in number, and anecdotical in the lore at best.
In the same idea, Abomination don't get along with werewolf all that well, and Baali seem to have no relation with Demon: The Fallen (even if they do have access to some entity also called demon).
Now, Gehenna was event directly in the Vampire world, which concerned mainly vampire. Adding them to the game was a great idea, but a great idea which was hard to implement, and was more or less failed.
> Ashur wrote:
>
> > echiang wrote:
> > Throughout all of playtest, it was simply "requires two Gehenna events in play." During playtest it was never the more restrictive printed version of "requires two Gehenna events controlled by others."
> >
> > Also, until the final round, it prevented Earth Meld from being played at all (rather than costing 2 additional blood).
> >
> This card is unbelievably bad. I don´t even understand what the initial idea of it was. Like "How does this card address a compelling game need?"
>
Well, the primary effect is to deal damage to people's vampires each turn. In that sense it fits well with the New Inquisition - you don't get to choose the target, but you don't have to worry about it easily getting voted out.
The anti-Earth Meld is just a minor effect as opposed to the blood depletion. Blood depletion works well with Marijava Thuggee, or Cryptic Mission, or Foul Blood.
One possible "game benefit" is that like Anarch Revolt and Ancilla Empowerment / Anarchist Uprising, it helps accelerate the game by depleting resources, in contrast to The Coven and Autarkis Persecution which tend to make the game longer.
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
Becoming of Ennoia is on par with Eyes of the Dead right now. Which is shame, as it would be playable with just "requires two Gehenna events in play".
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
A pity. That could be a nice gehenna event, helping to use Fueled By the Hearts Blood and Wormwood, two nice events that dont have many options now.
An errata would be nicely welcome.
Many people hate erratas, I think we should avoid them, but this card is really a easy fix, a nice example of how would be an elegant errata use.
I am death.
Paul Kersey, Death Wish
> Charles_Bronson wrote:
> Many people hate erratas, I think we should avoid them, but this card is really a easy fix, a nice example of how would be an elegant errata use.
>
I often oppose errata, but I do support this one.
> Timo wrote:
> Is there any news?
> Please?
>
The project is evolving and no major roadblock so far. Not having a final validation from all involved parties so can´t really say more at the moment.
> johannes wrote:
>
> > Timo wrote:
> > Is there any news?
> > Please?
> >
> The project is evolving and no major roadblock so far. Not having a final validation from all involved parties so can´t really say more at the moment.
>
Still thanks for saying it
> johannes wrote:
> The project is evolving and no major roadblock so far. Not having a final validation from all involved parties so can´t really say more at the moment.
>
Are there any news, Johannes?
"It was a perfect plan - until it had contact with reality"
---
Hardy Range
Playgroup Tradition Compliance Manager
> Gnerphk wrote:
> Is there anyone we could call, bug, picket, or otherwise (legally, of course) harrass?
>
I think anyone doing those things is morexlikely to hurt than help......
Although if you show up randomly and start doing miniscule things like mow steve wiecks yard or change thexhead of wotc's oil while wearing a vtes shirt, eventually it could help.
But addressing them not so much.......
> Gnerphk wrote:
> Is there anyone we could call, bug, picket, or otherwise (legally, of course) harrass?
>
Steps to actually help:
1) Ensure that you have a local volunteer on the list.
www.vekn.net/vampire-elder-kindred-network/prince-list
2) Ensure that all of your local players are recorded members of the forum.
www.vekn.net/component/comprofiler/userslist
VEKN has 1525 registered users.
3) Advertise events locally and ensure that they are on the calendar before they happen.
www.vekn.net/event-calendar
4) Report on your events when they complete.
www.vekn.net/forum/9-event-reports-and-twd
5) Demo the game to new players and have them join the V:EKN.
www.vekn.net/forum/10-news-and-announcements/66-new-player-acquisition-challenge
6) Help the V:EKN Inner Circle convince the businesses involved that there is actually a potential for profit and not just more lost money by doing 2-5 as often as possible.
> Adonai wrote:
> 6) Help the V:EKN Inner Circle convince the businesses involved that there is actually a potential for profit and not just more lost money by doing 2-5 as often as possible.
>
Hello Adonai,
reading the last part of the post (which I do not dispute!), that sounds like it indicates that the "businesses involved" actually might be afraid of burning more money, and that is why we do not see any progress with print-on-demand for VTES.
Is there any information that this is so?
Has a "major roadblock" (to use Johannes' words) now finally appeared?
"It was a perfect plan - until it had contact with reality"
---
Hardy Range
Playgroup Tradition Compliance Manager
I'm just assuming the whole thing moves so slowly is becauxse there is so little possible profits involved for the companies who are on this. Hence very little effort is being put into making it a reality by them -expensive lawyers are preferably being used in other more lucrative and less complicated projects etc.
Finnish Politics!
Hardy,
I'd be betting that either CCP or Hasbro lawyers have it filed in the "To do on a quiet week" pile. It probably doesn't represent a great internal revenue for them (as a legal department) AND there isn't a pressing external need (i.e. there isn't a Chief Somebody telling them to get it done yesterday).
Us attempting to lobby them would be useless. We are better off showing them that it would potentially be worth enough money to make it worth the time to sort out.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> Hardy,
> I'd be betting that either CCP or Hasbro lawyers have it filed in the "To do on a quiet week" pile. It probably doesn't represent a great internal revenue for them (as a legal department) AND there isn't a pressing external need (i.e. there isn't a Chief Somebody telling them to get it done yesterday).
>
> Us attempting to lobby them would be useless. We are better off showing them that it would potentially be worth enough money to make it worth the time to sort out.
>
That is a very good representation of what is happening.
Let´s see what GenCon brings.
In march (iirc), we were told that there will be some preview from danse macabre.
We are now 6 months later and the playtesting for yet another set has begun and I don't know of any teaser. But I see a good number of players leaving the game.
Hope is a great thing but people need more practical stuff.
Id it possible to have something to meke people wait for the game to be reborn like some good previews?
And maybe a timeline could be decided in which at some point, if PoD is not yet officially scheduled, the new set will be legal for PDF play.
I have great hope for the PoD system but I am afraid it is killing us.
People are waiting for "something" at "some date" and while waiting they do nothing else, they start to go to torpor and soon will be impossible to wake up.
Fo example I have a good number of deck idea for which I don't make any effort to gather the catds because I wait for PoD to happen.
Sorry for the bad post construction and for the approximate english.
> Timo wrote:
> I have great hope for the PoD system but I am afraid it is killing us.
>
I agree. This is going unbelievably slow.
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
Id like to see spoilers, but im not really feeling a pdf set currently. Im in the same baot with waiting on pod so i can build many decks, and my wifes waiting for that as well, but pdf sets arent really going to help in my region.
Much of our lost playerbase is just gone without pod happening.
But again, spoilers would be great.
My preference is that Danse Macabre would have already been released by now as a PDF in advance of POD. However, I have not yet been given the green light to do that by Onebookshelf.com, who are still in negotiations with Hasbro and CCP. We would all like this to go more quickly, but it isn't.
As I mentioned in the most recent Designers' Diary, there _will_ be previews of Danse Macabre in a presentation by the Design Team at the EC in Stockholm. Those previews (and that presentation) will also be shared with the entire V:TES community here on vekn.net.
> Timo wrote:
> Id it possible to have something to meke people wait for the game to be reborn like some good previews?
>
Or a storyline, or a special series of events, or anything organized at the international level to enthuse all players?
Yes, a storyline is something worth discussing. One more point to cover during the coming NC debate in Stockholm. One more point to consider. I have no doubt most of the players would welcome it with open arms.
> Timo wrote:
> And maybe a timeline could be decided in which at some point, if PoD is not yet officially scheduled, the new set will be legal for PDF play.
>
I second that motion.
I was willing to accept a delay in seeing new cards published, if there is a chance to see POD.
But I think we should set a deadline, after which we accept that POD is not going to happen, and instead proceed with other means to keep the game alive.
"It was a perfect plan - until it had contact with reality"
---
Hardy Range
Playgroup Tradition Compliance Manager
> hardyrange wrote:
>
> > Timo wrote:
> > And maybe a timeline could be decided in which at some point, if PoD is not yet officially scheduled, the new set will be legal for PDF play.
> >
> I second that motion.
>
> I was willing to accept a delay in seeing new cards published, if there is a chance to see POD.
> But I think we should set a deadline, after which we accept that POD is not going to happen, and instead proceed with other means to keep the game alive.
>
When the Design Team and the idea of creating new cards to be published via .pdf files was formulating, it was under the expectation that no publisher was going to pick up V:TES and bring it back to print. That remained true until very late in the development process for Danse Macabre, when we were approached by Steve Weick and Onebookshelf.com about negotiations amongst them, Hasbro, and CCP about acquiring the licenses and bringing the game back in print via print-on-demand. This news was a surprise to the Design Team. At that point, the development context changed from "release .pdfs even though we don't have copyright" to "wait until we get the green light from the IP owners so we don't interfere with or jeopoardize license negotiations".
Soon after Steve Wieck contacted us, Johannes proposed the idea to him that we release Danse Macabre as a .pdf set in advance of POD. At the time, we were instructed not to do that, and to wait to see how the negotiations with Hasbro and CCP would go. We were also told that these types of negotiations can go very slowly. As it turns out, these negotiations are going very slowly. On top of it, it is Steve Wieck and Onebookshelf.com who are doing the negotiating, not Johannes, the Design Team, the V:EKN ICs, or anyone else in the V:EKN. As such, we have no direct insight into this process, so the slowness of the negotiation process is made all the more frustrating by the lack of direct information and understanding of how this all works. That said, I repeated my request for a .pdf release of Danse Macabre more than a month ago. I was told to sit tight and be patient, and that a decision on that might not happen until after the EC.
I understand that patience is a virtue. I understand that "hurry the fuck up" is also a virtue. I want these cards in your hands. I want the volunteer artists to be able to show off their work and sell the original pieces so they can get money for their efforts. Again, my preference is that the Danse Macabre cards be released as .pdf files in advance of POD. However, my overriding preference is that V:TES comes back into print. Given that there are active and ongoing - albeit agonizingly slow - negotiations amongst Onebookshelf.com, Hasbro, and CCP about the respective licenses, I will act under the guidance of those parties so as not to interfere with or jeopardize their efforts. I will not act unilaterally and against their requests and guidance, but I will continue to request of them and advocate a .pdf release.
THAT was a clear explanation of why it lasts so long.
I really much appreciate that someone lets us know what excactly is going on. It is very valuable to know that the VEKN-representants are not in charge of the delay. I can't emphazize that fact enough.
Communication is the key.
Baron of Frankfurt
Thanks a lot!
It changes nearly nothing about the point I wanted to make (the game is still slowly diing) buthaving some insight is really good and give a little bit of refreshed hope ^^.
> BenPeal wrote:
> At that point, the development context changed from "release .pdfs even though we don't have copyright" to "wait until we get the green light from the IP owners so we don't interfere with or jeopoardize license negotiations".
>
That clearly applies to cards that would be intended to be "official".
If V:EKN were to release storyline-only cards that would never enter normal sanctioned play and which were valid only for a storyline - say, something along the lines of the clearly-broken Nergal deck, though possibly not so ambitious as a whole deck! - would that also be prevented by license negotiations?
(For example, some storyline-only vampires where each player must use one of them in a clan-themed deck. Some master cards or events similarly. Whatever.)
This is all well and good, but besides waiting for these companies to make their arrangements, what is the VKEN doing to keep VTES alive? Adonai suggested a storyline or planned events, and I know that I've suggested the same on several occasions. If we can't get POD in the meantime, the VKEN needs to do something to aid the community.
Baron of Berkeley
> Count wrote:
> This is all well and good, but besides waiting for these companies to make their arrangements, what is the VKEN doing to keep VTES alive? Adonai suggested a storyline or planned events, and I know that I've suggested the same on several occasions. If we can't get POD in the meantime, the VKEN needs to do something to aid the community.
>
From the marketing perspective: we have developed several projects (or "in develop") but we stucked in due the rights and license - for example we need official agreement to develop any stuff with the triple-snake-mark as a vtes logo if we will do this for the profit (if any) etc etc.
From my perspective for now my hands are tied. Pretty serious. We can only bring some stuff for promo during events like EC (whatever).
We need to wait for the end of the negotiations and then make the decisions - in both ways - with or without legal permissions and pod...The situation has to be clear.
There are plenty of ideas but we live in such a circumstances and we have to be caution. That's my perspective.
Regards
Szewski
When I first heard about the news of a new card set being put together I got very excited, Its good that the game is moving forward. However I understand all the delays, but my frustration is not with VEKN, you guys are doing a fantastic job with this, When I first started playing VTES it was easy to find players, then those players slowly went away, and I searched for 10 yrs. for new players. I still collected cards and was even given cards by those who no longer played. Thanks for VEKN for coming along in putting me in touch with players in my area, My point is that it does not matter to me how long it takes for the cards to come out, I know everyone involved is doing there best, I know there are obstacles, and other things to overcome. I do not want to rush into a card set, in any format. It will happen, and when it does it will be grand.
Prince of Toledo
> johannes wrote:
> Let´s see what GenCon brings.
>
As we have not seen any follow-up, may I assume that GenCon has not brought any progress?
If so: What is your expectation re the ongoing negotiations re POD? Do you still think this has a realistic chance to ever materialize, and if so, what would be your guess about the timeline?
"It was a perfect plan - until it had contact with reality"
---
Hardy Range
Playgroup Tradition Compliance Manager
Here is the latest update about POD:
Against our long-time expectations we were not able to put together a licensing deal. The project is not finally dead, but for the time being we are at a no-go status. I don´t expect any changes within the next 6 months either, the situation might never change.
Therefore we will proceed with the PDF release of Danse Macabre.
I will put together a proper announcement ASAP.
I confused and saddened that we live in a world were it can be legal to distribute a PDF but not print said PDF on pieces of cardboard and give them to others. :/
Thanks Johannes, for the news....
A mixed blessing, but this was what I had been asking for - a decision to ignore the POD path (at least for the time being), and finally get new cards out, even in the less preferred PDF format.
Again: Thanks for your efforts thus far, and let's hope players out there can enjoy Danse Macabre, even if it will not be "real cards".
"It was a perfect plan - until it had contact with reality"
---
Hardy Range
Playgroup Tradition Compliance Manager
> hodgestar wrote:
> I confused and saddened that we live in a world were it can be legal to distribute a PDF but not print said PDF on pieces of cardboard and give them to others. :/
>
The former is done completely non-profit as fan-based content (which we have permission to do) and the latter would be run by a company for a profit. Pretty simple
> johannes wrote:
>
> > hodgestar wrote:
> > I confused and saddened that we live in a world were it can be legal to distribute a PDF but not print said PDF on pieces of cardboard and give them to others. :/
> >
> The former is done completely non-profit as fan-based content (which we have permission to do) and the latter would be run by a company for a profit. Pretty simple
>
Its still dissappointing. Its not as though the IP is turning profit otherwise. Its not as though there needs to be design effort on the ip holders. A not for profit group of volunteers has done all the legwork for the fist set, and its just about getting money for the product being printed. Royalties for the ip of vampire are deckmaster, print and such costs for onebookshelf, and maybe something for artists.
Its really a shame the companies couldnt be bothered to make some amount of money for little more than oking someone else to do the work for them, with zero actual risk for anyone other than drive thru cards.
So, im back to where i was after CCP announced the game was dead in new orleans. I can keep playing. Im not getting cards cheaper than i see them now, theyre gonna go up. I cant get new players (who wants a suboptimal card pool if they spend 3 months understanding the game? Who wants a new hobby where its like mtg with more strategies and no cash or card prizes?).
I still greatly appreciate the efforts of the DT. Seriously, you folks have busted your balls to make this game stay alive. And half the online community seemed to bitch about some part of this. Im excited to see the indy set still.
But im quite pissed that all of that work and they get stuck on computer paper with the artists getting nothing, and a game that cant get staple cards to a playerbase thats gonna shrink.
Also, Johannes, thank you for posting this. I would have hid in a cave, sent bribes to soften the blow, and then reported it anonymously. Bad news is always bad. Even thr impatient people wouldve rather heard today that pod starts soon than pod starts never, watch for pdf sets.
Lots of doors just closed. A very sad day for vtes and Garfeild games in general.
I'm not so much disappointed as afraid for the game's future.
Over in my neck of the woods, playing with cards printed out from PDF files reduces the prestige of the game, resulting in an even higher barrier for entry.
Thanks to all who have been involved in the entire process for the past few months, and to those who have done their part in keeping the game alive. Hopefully it'll all work out in the end.
Suaku
Inceptor Asian Continental Championship
興っ
www.youtube.com/SuakuOz
> self wrote:
> is there a specific stumbling block that has brought us to this impasse?
>
That's probably available on need to know basis if you're part of CCP or WotC.
Finnish Politics!
> Vlad wrote:
> At last a good news : Danse Macabre in pdf !!!
>
Seconded mate. At last we see new cards.
I'd have preferred the POD-way, but we waited long enough now (and our representatives worked hard enough) for it. When it is not going to happen we have to move on.
And here we go.
Baron of Frankfurt
at last some news. This waiting lasts much too long, we need new cards, whatever the format will be.
I assume, there is no more obstacles in releasing Danse Macabre now, so the question is: when it will be done?
> alek wrote:
> at last some news. This waiting lasts much too long, we need new cards, whatever the format will be.
> I assume, there is no more obstacles in releasing Danse Macabre now, so the question is: when it will be done?
>
Johannes wrote: The set is actually complete and we are doing the last steps of post-production so it should be ready for the EC.
Regards
Szewski
> Damnans wrote:
>
> > alek wrote:
> > so what's the news about preview?
> >
> Previews are starting today.
>
What? Where?!
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."