Caseless Rounds & Sawed-Off Shotgun

Caseless Rounds [Gehenna:C, KoT:U] Cardtype: Combat Cost: 1 pool Ammo. Only usable before resolution of a gun's strike. For the remainder of combat, once each round when the bearer strikes with this gun, the bearer gets an optional additional strike, only usable to strike with this gun. No more than one ammo card can be used on a gun each combat. Name: Sawed-Off Shotgun [Jyhad:C, VTES:C, SW:PB, CE:PB, Third:PM2] Cardtype: Equipment Cost: 2 pool Weapon, gun. 3R damage each strike, only usable once each combat. My question is this. Is it possible to use the Caseless Rounds with the Sawed-Off Shotgun? During the combat phase we both used the shotgun to strike at each other for 3R. Before the resolution I played the Caseless rounds to get an additional strike. Is it possible to do this? Or did I completely screw him? Thanks for the help.

You would get an additional strike once, but cannot use it, because, so to say, your weapon is "jammed". Furthermore, since you can gain additional strikes only from one source (unless the source states otherwise), you would not be able to play additional strike as well (that one time you actually shoot the sawed-off). But you can play the card itself just to cycle Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.

you can play the ammo card but the additional from the ammo card can't be used because of the shotgun's text. I believe, since it is optional, you can choose to not take that as your one source of additional strikes. This means you could gain additionals from another source and strike with something else.

IMHO, the additional strike is mandatory if you strike with the gun (and you do just after you play this ammo). It is worded "gets". Just like you can't play multiple additional strike cards just to cycle, because you "get" additional strikes which are against the rules, same should apply here. Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.

> Zimji wrote: > Caseless Rounds > [Gehenna:C, KoT:U] > Cardtype: Combat > Cost: 1 pool > Ammo. > Only usable before resolution of a gun's strike. For the remainder of combat, once each round when the bearer strikes with this gun, the bearer gets an optional additional strike, only usable to strike with this gun. No more than one ammo card can be used on a gun each combat. > > Name: Sawed-Off Shotgun > [Jyhad:C, VTES:C, SW:PB, CE:PB, Third:PM2] > Cardtype: Equipment > Cost: 2 pool > Weapon, gun. > 3R damage each strike, only usable once each combat. > > My question is this. Is it possible to use the Caseless Rounds with the Sawed-Off Shotgun? > Yes. [LSJ 20040623] > > Zimji wrote: > During the combat phase we both used the shotgun to strike at each other for 3R. Before the resolution I played the Caseless rounds to get an additional strike. Is it possible to do this? > Yes. [LSJ 20040623] > > Zimji wrote: > Or did I completely screw him? Thanks for the help. > That depends what you did with that optional additional strike. If you did anything else than nothing (for instance, handstrike or Shotgun strike), that was illegal. If you used a Spike-Thrower, you probably nailed him. Using the optional additional strike is not mandatory. [LSJ 20081017]

If he used a Spike-Thrower, that was illegal too, because of the cardtext on Caseless Rounds. Here we go again.... Dave Knowles (Advanced) Sabbat Bishop of Manchester

Spike-Thrower was merely here for the pun

AND I CRUSHED IT LIKE YOU DID HIS DREAMS OF 6R DAMAGE, EAT KARMA RULESMONGER. Here we go again.... Dave Knowles (Advanced) Sabbat Bishop of Manchester

6 damage each round with 2 cards= foldable machine gun + mass reality. Sawed off is narrow. Maybe ruth mcgonely+ dbr make it cool to burn vamps, or magazine on scattershot and draw out thier beast while packing disengage or chafismatic aura. But foldable reality is more awesome.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > But foldable reality is more awesome. > Yes indeedy! And best part is that Mass Realities are cumulative. It would be nice to use one pool more expensive Kpist m/45 (with the maneuver available already on 1st round) but you cannot Concealed Weapon it. Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > > > ReverendRevolver wrote: > > But foldable reality is more awesome. > > > Yes indeedy! > And best part is that Mass Realities are cumulative. > > It would be nice to use one pool more expensive Kpist m/45 (with the maneuver available already on 1st round) but you cannot Concealed Weapon it. > I know. I need to actually build one of my decks that use the combo, allies ive tried, i think its time to buy sense deps and run ravnos.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > i think its time to buy sense deps and run ravnos. > Or just play with Magaji that have Chimestry an use No Secrets from the Magaji cheesiness. Finnish Politics!

On a related note (I don't consider it worth starting a new topic), I thought about milking even more damage out of the Mass Reality thingy and wanted to check if it actually worked. So you got Mass Reality or few in place and your vamp is equipped with two Foldable Machine Guns and a Ghoul Retainer. Am I correct in assuming that if the Ghoul Retainer, even though not strictly the "bearer", uses a Foldable Machine Gun it also gets a additional strike with it? Ghoul Retainer Ghoul with 2 life. 1 strength. During the initial strike resolution each round, the Ghoul Retainer inflicts 1 damage or may use a weapon not used by the employing minion (or another retainer) that round (either before or after). This is not a strike, although it does count as using the weapon. Foldable Machine Gun 1R damage each strike, with an optional maneuver each combat. This maneuver cannot be used on the first round. When bearer strikes with this gun, he or she gets an optional additional strike this round, only usable to strike with this gun. Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > Am I correct in assuming that if the Ghoul Retainer, even though not strictly the "bearer", uses a Foldable Machine Gun it also gets a additional strike with it? > No. > Rulings wrote: > The Ghoul is never the "bearer" of the weapon that it uses. Any side-effect of using the weapon (e.g. Zip Gun, Grenade) is applied to the employing minion, as normal. [TOM 19951114] > Are the additional strikes granted to the employer? No, see the precedent on Meat Hook, and the card text on Ghoul Retainer. [LSJ 20020711] > > LSJ wrote: > > if so, can you burn a garotte your Ghoul retainer used to burn the > > opposing vampire if it went to torpor from the garotte? > > No. It isn't a strike. > > > do you get a press if your ghoul retainer whacks someone with a meat > > hook? > > No. It isn't a strike. > The reasoning for this was expanded in [LSJ 20080211] . (LSJ is mostly agreeing with someone else's analysis.) > LSJ wrote: > > Then it occurred to me that the answer might lie in the text of GR > > requiring that the weapon in question "is not being used by the > > employing minion ... during that round." Taking damage does not count > > as "use" of the weapon, but I suppose the other effects do. This > > could be construed as preventing both minion and GR from using the > > same weapon in the same round, even if the minion's use is subsequent > > to that of the GR. (It is crystal clear from text that GR cannot use > > a weapon currently or previously used that round by the minion, but > > less clear that the minion is restricted from using a weapon that was > > used EARLIER that round by GR). > > Very nice analysis. Better than the excuses I was about to cobble together, I'm > sure. > > > Then it occurred to me that I did not know whether a minion could > > additional-strike with a weapon used by GR earlier that round. I did > > a brief search on this, but could find no rulings. This used to be > > possible, when GR's text forbad use of a weapon being used by the > > minion "presently" rather than "during that round". I think most > > players assume it is still possible. Has this changed with the new > > card text? > > I've probably been assuming it, too. > > But the "not being used this round" has been there since the 1995 printing. (The > 1994 printing used "presently" instead, as you note). > > I hadn't noticed the change, but it seems to offer the path to the current rulings. > > > If such (subsequent) additional strikes by the minion are no longer > > possible, then the rulings on Meat Hook and Garrote make perfect sense > > on the same logic. Otherwise .... > > Well, then. Let's go with that. > That is, benefiting from the press, additional strike or whatever would mean the minion used it, and the Ghoul Retainer card text is being read as saying you can't - prohibiting both past AND future use in the round. LSJ also notes in the same post: > > LSJ wrote: > > I had thought that the prior rulings on Meat Hook and Garrote were in > > fact based on the strike-specific wording. But your most recent > > answers relating to POKER and others seem to call this into doubt. > > Like with "Poker" et al, it is possible to mentally edit Garrote and > > Meat Hook so that all references to the instant "strike" are replaced > > with the instant "GR-use or strike": > > Thanks for the thoughts. I think this is shaky enough to warrant some extra > review by the rules team to see if it can be firmed up. > As far as I know, no change was ever issued.

So in this case, you get moreout of having the gr use a deagle, and the vamp using the foldable machine gun. Not horrible, but less optimal than just running foldables and things that dont cost pool retainer wise.

Ah yeah, the Rulings page... Never thought to check THAT first, silly me! :/ Thanks for help James. Finnish Politics!

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > 6 damage each round with 2 cards = foldable machine gun + mass reality. > Other than the fact that combat is seriously hampered by S:CE, this is a wonderfully-efficient use of cards. I like it. Alexis Sorokin and Lizette seem awesome for this, since they can both: 1)play the Ravnos Cache/Carnival 2)play the Mass Reality 3)play the Disguised Weapon 4)play the Psyche, to stop S:CE 5)protect themselves from any hit back with their Fortitude. Alexis Sorokin Ravnos Group: 4 Capacity: 8 for CEL CHI OBF PRO Independent. Red List: Once each combat, Alexis may dodge as a strike. She may steal an equipment card as a action. She gets +1 bleed when bleeding a Methuselah who controls a ready Toreador. Lizette Clan: Ravnos Group: 4 Capacity: 10 pot ANI CEL CHI FOR PRO Independent: Lizette may prevent 1 damage each combat. Once each action, she can burn 1 blood to get +1 bleed. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

To be honest I think Fauberge is waaaay better than Lisette in this deck. But you can useboth and have a trio of ravnos pistoleros ' Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> Reyda wrote: > To be honest I think Fauberge is waaaay better than Lisette in this deck. > > But you can useboth and have a trio of ravnos pistoleros ' > Actually, smaller vamps seem to get the job done betted in what ive tested. I neexto try my "foldable machine gun blues" in a tournament, but its biggest vamp is chavi. Kevin stated the biggest flaw, sce, but freak driving and rushing again works eazy witb more minions. But with draba, blocking is easy with media locations, and while stsw rocks, smaller vamps make you less worried abouf pool to minion ratios. But its all fun anyway. Heck, using some gangrel with dog packs as support and relying on animalism and fortitude works too. As a joke, you can magazine on manstoper or scattershot AND run taget vitals. Maybe 1 target head, incase tv gets di2'd.