What happens to the city titles of two of my vampires, when I influence out a second, but different vampire with a title of the same city?
For example: It happened to me in the Draft at GothCon, that I controlled Malabranca (Archbishop of Rome) and influenced out Sela Adv. (Archbishop of Rome).
It was ruled, that both titles are contested, and that in my next untap phase i could choose to yield one title, for to get back the title of the other vampire the following turn.
Was that correct?
Thanks in advance!
National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de
Why wouldn't Sela yield her title immediatly when going into play ?
IIRC, title contest work the same way as minion contest ; in other word, if you self contest the most recently brought into play copy is yielded immediatly.
> Hakuron wrote:
> What happens to the city titles of two of my vampires, when I influence out a second, but different vampire with a title of the same city?
>
They contest the titles.
During each of the controller's subsequent untap phases, each vampire chooses to contest or yield the titles, as appropriate. You don't have to have one yield and, in fact, both could choose to yield. That might be useful if you wanted to go Anarch, maybe.
If one yields and the other contests, the one who still has the title gets it back in the controller's next untap phase.
[LSJ 20020531]
>
> LSJ wrote:
> Two vampires under the same controller can contest a title, however.
>
> A Methuselah could bring out both the Prince of New York and the
> Archbishop of New York, for instance. Or one of her vampires could,
> as in your example, seize Praxis on one of her other controlled
> vampire's prince titles.
>
> On the Methuselahs untap phase, both could yield, both could contest,
> or one could yield and the other pay to contest. In the third case,
> the one who paid to contest would not gain the benefit of the contested
> title until the *following* untap phase. [4.2]
>
[LSJ 20050331]
>
> LSJ wrote:
> Correct.
> So, if the referendum passes, Arika becomes Ventrue Justicar and contests
> the title with Lucinde.
> ...
> Note that while one yields, the other would have to also yield unless
> he or she paid a blood to contest. If one contests and the other
> yields, then the one who didn't yield still won't get the title
> back until the *next* untap phase (not the current one).
>
> Ohlmann wrote:
> IIRC, title contest work the same way as minion contest ; in other word, if you self contest the most recently brought into play copy is yielded immediatly.
>
You're prohibited from contesting unique cards, not unique titles.
4.1 of the rulebook contains the prohibition on contesting unique cards:
>
> Rulebook, wrote:
> Be careful about putting duplicates of the same unique cards in your deck. You can't control more than one of the same unique card at a time, and you cannot contest cards with yourself (if some effect would force you to contest a card with yourself, then you simply burn the incoming copy of the unique card). On the other hand, you may wish to have a second copy handy in case the first is burned.
>
There is no such mechanism in 4.2, on contesting titles.
Titles are contested.
During your next untap phase you choose which vampire yields and/or pay, then in the following untap phase the vampire who paid will get his or her title back (provided there's no other vampire contesting the title).
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Why should you have to wait an extra turn? Can't you order your untap phase as you like?
1) First vampire yields the contest.
2) Second vampire checks that all other contestants have yielded, so he gains the title.
EDIT:
OK, it is in the complete rules reference, which directly contradicts the rulebook on that point. Suggested changes to the rulebook, sections 4.1 and 4.2:
> Section wrote:
> If all other cards contesting your unique card are yielded, then the card is untapped and turned face up during at the beginning of your next untap phase, ending the contest.
>
> Section wrote:
> If all other vampires contesting a title with your vampire have yielded the contest, then your vampire acquires the title during at the beginning of your next untap phase, ending the contest.
>
That is, if the CRR is the right one, of course.
What I thought it was weird that LSJ said that the vampire who was going to keep the title still had to pay a blood.
> Note that while one yields, the other would have to also yield unless he or she paid a blood to contest. If one contests and the other yields, then the one who didn't yield still won't get the title back until the *next* untap phase (not the current one).
>
That makes no sense. You can choose to contest or not to contest a title in any order during your untap phase according to the rulebook. Heck, the choice to contest or not to contest can even come after other untap effects, such as using a Vessel. (I think my playgroup has told me that contests have to resolved immediately after untapping, but that's not the case.)
The rulebook doesn't seem to allow a vampire to contest a title that is no longer contested. LSJ's ruling contradicts the rulebook by saying, essentially, that the resolution of multiple contests happen at the same time during the untap phase.
Bad LSJ ruling!
Because LSJ probably intended for all costs to be paid first. Since you are the same controller of both vamps, and they both share the same untap phase, then that would mean the vamp which doesn't yield the title would still have to pay the cost of the blood, or yields if said vamp doesn't have blood.
I'm pretty okay with that ruling of LSJ actually.
Sure, it makes sense - unless you read the rulebook.
> 4. Untap Phase
> You start your turn with your untap phase. At the beginning of your untap phase, you must untap all of your cards... Any cards or effects that require or allow you to do something during your untap phase take effect after you have untapped your cards. You may choose the order in which these effects take place. Along with effects generated by cards, there are other effects that are resolved during the untap phase:
> ...
> • For each card and title you are contesting, you must choose to yield or to pay to contest it (see below).
>
> 4.2. Contested Titles
> … If more than one vampire in play claims the same title, then the title is contested. While the title is being contested, the vampires involved in the contest are treated as if they have no title, but they remain controlled and may act and block as normal.
>
> The cost to contest a title is one blood, which is paid by the vampire during each of his untap phases. Instead of paying the cost to contest the title, the vampire may choose to yield the title (or may be forced to yield, if he has no blood to pay). … If all other vampires contesting a title with your vampire have yielded the contest, then your vampire acquires the title during your next untap phase, ending the contest.
>
Notice that a title is only contested when more than one vampire in play claims the same title. If a vampire chooses to yield the title, he no longer claims the title. If no other vampire claims the title, it is no longer contested. According to the last line under 4.0 above, you would not have to choose to yield or contest if there is no contested title. Section 4.0 clearly states that choosing to contest or yield any card is an effect that is ordered in the untap phase with other effects.
That means you should be able to:
1. Pay the contest for the first's title and then yield the second's title later,
2. Pay to contest both vampires' title in any order,
3. Or yield the first's title and then the second no longer has anything to contest. In your next untap phase, according to the rule, the second vampire acquires the title.
> AaronC wrote:
> The rulebook doesn't seem to allow a vampire to contest a title that is no longer contested.
>
It's still contested.
In the non-self-contest situation, that happens all the time. Vampire A has a title, which is contested with Vampire B, controlled by different Methuselahs. Vampire A yields the title. Vampire B's title is still contested, until Vampire B's controller's next untap phase. Vampire B can't make use of the title at all - if the title was a Prince, Vampire B still can't cast votes, still can't play Second Tradition, and still can't be the target of a Blood Siege.
In the rulebook, you only un-contest a card or a title once there are no other Methuselahs/vampires claiming a hold on it, and then during your next untap phase. You still have a contested title to pay for in III.A.3 (Complete Rules Reference).
Back when you could self-contest unique cards, the same thing applied. (Typically vampires, because you wanted to get a 'better' copy of the vampire out - less damaged, less in torpor, or something.)
[LSJ 20000202]
>
> LSJ wrote:
> > Basic formula for contested unique locations, equipment, vamps, etc is
> > Turn 1: Bring out second copy, lose use of both copies.
> > Turn 2: Pay contestation for one, yield the other during untap.
> > Turn 3: Receive use of unyielded copy at beginning of untap.
>
> Correct.
>
> AaronC wrote:
>
> > If all other vampires contesting a title with your vampire have yielded the contest, then your vampire acquires the title during your next untap phase, ending the contest.
> >
> Notice that a title is only contested when more than one vampire in play claims the same title.
>
The quote you provided tells us that the contest ends when the one remaining vampire receives it back. For some period of time (between the other vampire yielding it, typically on another Methuselah's turn), the title remains contested.
Two vampires claiming the same title starts the contest. But the one remaining vampire still has a contested title, up until they're given it back.
> AaronC wrote:
> If a vampire chooses to yield the title, he no longer claims the title. If no other vampire claims the title, it is no longer contested.
>
No, that is expressly the reverse of what the rules state - you have to wait to get a contested title, or a contested card, back.
> AaronC wrote:
> 3. Or yield the first's title and then the second no longer has anything to contest.
>
No, the title is still contested, because the contest hasn't ended.
> AaronC wrote:
> Sure, it makes sense - unless you read the rulebook.
>
> > 4.2. Contested Titles
> > … If all other vampires contesting a title with your vampire have yielded the contest, then your vampire acquires the title during your next untap phase, ending the contest.
> >
> Notice that a title is only contested when more than one vampire in play claims the same title. If a vampire chooses to yield the title, he no longer claims the title. If no other vampire claims the title, it is no longer contested.
>
The contest does not end when all other vampires yield. The contest only ends, as described in the rulebook, during your next untap phase, not during the untap phase when decisions about yielding or contesting were made.
--
National Coordinator
South Africa
> Non-existant user wrote:
> OK, it is in the complete rules reference, which directly contradicts the rulebook on that point.
>
The Complete Rules Reference doesn't actually tell you when you get titles back. Cards are handled in III.A.2. But titles aren't cards.
(If III.A.2 applied to titles, consider the situation where my infernal Baali wins a contest for a title, or any other vampire who does not untap as normal. III.A.2 would also untap the vampire!)
The rulebook tells you:
>
> Rulebook, wrote:
> If all other vampires contesting a title with your vampire have yielded the contest, then your vampire acquires the title during your next untap phase, ending the contest.
>
So, Vamp A, Vamp B, both mine, contested title. I'm in my untap phase. Vamp A yields the title. Vamp B will get it back "during my next untap phase". To get it back immediately would give it back to me in this untap phase. So it happens next turn.
I think I can then order it however I like among my other "during your untap phase" effects, in III.A.3, in my next untap phase. (Though I can't think offhand of a situation where that would actually matter.)
> Hakuron wrote:
> What happens to the city titles of two of my vampires, when I influence out a second, but different vampire with a title of the same city?
>
> For example: It happened to me in the Draft at GothCon, that I controlled Malabranca (Archbishop of Rome) and influenced out Sela Adv. (Archbishop of Rome).
> It was ruled, that both titles are contested, and that in my next untap phase i could choose to yield one title, for to get back the title of the other vampire the following turn.
>
> Was that correct?
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
the cheek!