who is the hands down worste 11 cap?

My playgroup has had this debate before, and i wondered what the consensus was. I believe augustus giovanni to be the worste 11 capacity vamp printed. Paying as much for one vamp as you could for 3 solid ones means you neex milage out of said vamp. Pool damage? Inner circles get +2 bleed in most cases, and all of them have some means of multiacting, be it from fortitude, rutors hand, or obf and flurry of action. Also, they have 4 votes. Arika is arguably the best, since her spread and prey specific special doesnt draw as much hate as, lets say leandros juicy ability, and ive heard arguments against all of them, but even other spotty ones trump augustus. My important traits for an 11 cap are damage potential, multiacting, combat survivability, and overall usefulness. Lucian the perfect is short in some areas, but he bleeds for 4, and has an ability thqt is deceptively strong in combat, terror frenzy, crows, dotb, and some bats or manuevers with lids and normal combat really cries. Even just a few of those plus outferior armor of cainez fury or glancing blow to stave off agg, and yiu are good. 2 of my playgroup think sutehk is the worste, and i disagree entirely. He. Can be paid for in eternals of sirius, he can multiact with truth of 1000 lies, and prevents agg with heart of darkness, typhonic beast ( oh, yea, he jus needs some tastes and traps one you have out a path and hes capable of tearing down combat decks with. Pair or 3 typhonicbeasts...) So, i think Augustus sucks, and Hazimel is dissappointing for what he could be. Opinions?

Agree, IMHO he is the worst of all the bunch !

I would nominate Von Bauren, who have no multiacting at all, only +1 bleed, and a pretty weak array of discipline. At least Augustus have Dominate. Another possible nominee is Elimelech. Partly because his special is so disconnected from its discipline that it's near impossible to use, partly because dementation add nothing when you have dominate, partly because nothing he do can't be done by something in the 6-10 cap range, and partly because it's a 11-cap with exactly 0 votes. And then, there is a lot of meh 11 cap. Sutekh and Augustus are in this category, because while they have some good point, it's hard to not find somebody better for cheaper. Rafael also land in this category for me, because he have no special ability and uninspiring discipline, and get played mostly because he's near free for MPA abuser. I have a bit of love for Hazimel because the combination of aus+chi and his special is pretty sweet. The main problem for him is that Sha-Ennu exist.

Thats the problem i see with hazimel, sha ennus ability would make him playable, and fit, if you look at how khalil ravana gets stuck helping him. But hazimel could be amazing, but is the weakest 11 cap with fortitude, since even eleimelech can do more crazyness and has access to bh stuff, and +strength. Eleimelech and hardestadt can get abombwe, and devil channel throat is funny with them, albeit not that commonly seen. By which i mean ive done it, and never seen anyone else do it.

Rafael is still IC with +2 bleed, PRE and OBF, plus shares AUS with Lutz, thus fitting perfectly into 4th group IC decks. He sucks as a star, but he is still a good tag-along. Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.

Elimelech can get, wt: four ride forth combined with enkil cog for free multiaction with no fear of archon investigations. On a malkavian black hand deck he is capable of playing the art of memory and can influence other vampires really fast ( govern, the call, reunion kamut ). More than one superstar deck on the TWDA proves that he can´t be that bad.

I feel like adding Enkidu into the discussion just 'cus I've never won a game with him as a star. Otherwise: Harrod.

> kombainas wrote: > Rafael is still IC with +2 bleed, PRE and OBF, plus shares AUS with Lutz, thus fitting perfectly into 4th group IC decks. He sucks as a star, but he is still a good tag-along. > Mind rape deck, Flurry of action deck, New Council of Doom, Alastors 4-5, etc. With his spread of disciplines he can combine with a lot of clans and high cap vampires. 4 Votes and +2 bleed. He is not top notch, but flexible enough to see him in a lot of tournament winning decks. By far does he not belong to the bottom of the elevenths.

I say Augustus is the worst. I hope he and all the other FN-11-caps gets Advanced versions in the set after Danse Macabre. Rafael isn´t even close to worst-list, IMHO. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

Harrod is weak. Von Bauren as well. Yeah, someone in the old design-team didn't like the Nosferatu much Basically all 11-caps without multi-act-capability suck somewhat as opposed to their more blessed kindred. Flurry of action, Rutor's hand etc only go so far to make up for the lack of true power. that said, Elimelech can be very powerful in the right deck. the occasional claws of the dead with first strike can end some games real fast. he can also bounce like a m¨%£5µ;%?$ker. I always found Leandro & even Etrius to be an especially big disappointment as well (compared to Arika/Stanislava).

> Dr.Mafrune wrote: > Elimelech can get, wt: four ride forth combined with enkil cog for free multiaction with no fear of archon investigations. > On a malkavian black hand deck he is capable of playing the art of memory and can influence other vampires really fast ( govern, the call, reunion kamut ). > Well, yes, but he is far from being alone to be able to do that, and he is very expensive for such shenanigan compared to other vampires. Blackhorse Tanner or Al-Munthatir work almost as well for multiacting and speed influence, while having worthwhile special or discipline. I also feel he is vastly overshadowed by Appius Corvius, who is much better at stealth bleeding in my experience, and have The Rake and Saul Meira who share all three discipline and black hand. Saul Meira is also another enabler of Enkil Cog Shenanigan (which are a lot more needed for Appius since he have no natural multiacting) > Dr.Mafrune wrote: > Mind rape deck, Flurry of action deck, New Council of Doom, Alastors 4-5, etc. > With his spread of disciplines he can combine with a lot of clans and high cap vampires. 4 Votes and +2 bleed. He is not top notch, but flexible enough to see him in a lot of tournament winning decks. By far does he not belong to the bottom of the elevenths. > That depend on how you class the 11 caps. Nobody have done a Raphael superstar deck ; he have discipline who work well together but he lack an additional ability, or a discipline to make him worthwhile alone. That's sad (and subjective) for an 11-cap. I could imagine playing Augustus as a main vampire because of his hard to use and silly special, but I don't see any fun or efficient reason to center around. Of course, you can say he is good because he have classic discipline together. I find he is lacking.

Nobody posted that link yet? vtesone.wordpress.com/2009/01/21/harrod-vs-josef-von-bauren/ I don't think Elimelech is that bad. He brings a lot of multiaction as a Seraph with and he can be be influenced by younger vampires with Reunion Kamut. > > Ohlmann wrote: > That depend on how you class the 11 caps. Nobody have done a Raphael superstar deck ; > It might not be a star deck, but he is the best vampire in a Flurry of action deck because he is the only one with the 4 disciplines: . Adana lacks , Fanchon lacks .

> Non-existant user wrote: > I don't think Elimelech is that bad. He brings a lot of multiaction as a Seraph and he can be be influenced by younger vampires with Reunion Kamut. > I understand the theory. But in practice, I feel it very lacking. He have no vote and no Magic of the smith ; he is too big to be impressive for influencing vampires, and he is pretty bad at rushing, since Telepathic tracking is very expensive against S:CE, while needing setup (read : a flamethrower or assault rifle) to be any good against any serious combat deck. I have seen it played a lot, but I never seen him shine. Note that the good use to Reunion Kamut is influencing Elimelech with auspex weenie, not the other way around.

> Ohlmann wrote: > I have seen it played a lot, but I never seen him shine > www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2010rr3pf Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ohlmann wrote: > Another possible nominee is Elimelech. Partly because his special is so disconnected from its discipline that it's near impossible to use > man. what you are writing is so irrelevant. first strike does not combo with protean agg damage ? first strike does not combo with dementation's coma ? first strike does not combo with disguised weapon ivory bow or senghir dagger ? Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

Anyone with obf plus celerity can get the flurry bleed to untap them, and celerity plus animalism is a very high damage potential combo never taken advantage of. So harod> jo. But vanB has the votes, so hes better than augustus, if only barely. If we were to rank them, i think many people think eliemelech isnt as good as he is, and that shocks me. Imagine if roxanne had some of his specials with her almost identical discilline spread. Trading primogen for first strike would take her far in madness network decks. I thinm nos IC and augustus is the bottom rung, then hazimel and sutehk, and everyone else is higher, leading to slava, saulot, alexandra, lutz, and hardestadt being tied for second, and Arika being brokenly the best.

Sutekh is not horrible. Not great but also not horrible. Presence, Obfuscate, access to masters like Eternals and Farraille. I always thought Haszimel wasn't that good either. But he has access to nightmare curse, will-o-the-wisp, and shared nightmare. I've never played him or used these cards but that seems like there has to be something there. He can also, it seems to me, team up nicely with Sha-Ennu.

Mafune! You just made my day! That is the funniest thing I've seen in a long time.

> TorranceCircle wrote: > Mafune! You just made my day! That is the funniest thing I've seen in a long time. > Im asking this at risk of ruining the joke: Whats in the good doctor's post? My phone just shows a vast empty space between texts.

It's a youtube video titled Trololo-Eduard Khil. An old video, from the 60's 0r 70's maybe, with a guy singing or lip-sync-ing and at times looking like a ventriloquist's puppet.

Well... what about Ezmerelda? Ezmerelda, 11, ANI CHI dom FOR PRE tha, Ravnos, 2, [FN:R] She has dom and 2 votes, her special sucks. Augustus also has 2 votes, you have DOM and his special is usable... Augustus Giovanni, 11, AUS cel DOM NEC POT pre, Giovanni, 2, [FN:R] Independent: Augustus has 2 votes. If a vampire you control has been burned since your last turn, Augustus may move that vampire from your ash heap to the ready region as an action that costs 1 pool. +1 bleed.

Name: Sutekh, The Dark God [FN:R] Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Follower of Set Group: 2 Capacity: 11 Discipline: cel pot NEC OBF PRE SER Independent: Sutekh has 2 votes. You gain a pool each time an action to recruit a Mummy ally is successful. During your untap, you may move 1 blood between Sutekh and any other Follower of Set you control. +1 bleed. Artist: Lawrence Snelly Name: Harrod [DS:V, CE:PN] Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Nosferatu Group: 2 Capacity: 11 Discipline: aus pre ANI CEL OBF POT Camarilla Inner Circle: During your untap phase, you may look at a card in your prey's uncontrolled region. +2 bleed. Artist: Lawrence Snelly Name: Gwendolyn [DS:V, CE:PB] Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Brujah Group: 2 Capacity: 11 Discipline: aus tha CEL FOR POT PRE Camarilla Inner Circle: +2 bleed. Artist: Ken Meyer, Jr.

Appolonius with a Necromancy and a Chimertry discipline skills would be quite bad.

villeining Ezmerelda the turn before you remove her is still gaining a crazy amount of pool... one of the only specials that also answers pentex. too bad she doesn't have or even . Gwendolyn gained a lot from forced march/flurry imho, even though i must admit i have yet to see her in any really successful decks.

> Brum wrote: > Name: Harrod > > Name: Gwendolyn > I have built decks around both of these Vampires (Presence vote for Harrod, with a master to get him to cap 12, and Alastor for Gwendolyn) and whilst I accept there were probably better builds with other Vampires, at least I didn't have to worry about my start Vampire being contested

> wesile wrote: > Well... what about Ezmerelda? > > Ezmerelda, 11, ANI CHI dom FOR PRE tha, Ravnos, 2, [FN:R] > > She has dom and 2 votes, her special sucks. > > Augustus also has 2 votes, you have DOM and his special is usable... > > Augustus Giovanni, 11, AUS cel DOM NEC POT pre, Giovanni, 2, [FN:R] > > Independent: Augustus has 2 votes. If a vampire you control has been burned since your last turn, Augustus may move that vampire from your ash heap to the ready region as an action that costs 1 pool. +1 bleed. > Ezmerelda is the best of the fn indy 11caps. She can multiact, and you can get your pool back, often more than that even, in a pinch. And shes in a twd, but Brad Cashdollar never submitted the list. It was Ezmerelda free states rant. Augustus has never won, and probably never will.

Fakir al Sidi ? Harod ? Augustus ? Fact is, there are worse vampires around, some 9-10 caps are quite awful. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Lech wrote: > Fakir al Sidi ? ... Fact is, there are worse vampires around, some 9-10 caps are quite awful. > Fakir al Sidi is in a lot of recent TWDs. For example, Brian Moritz won the 2010 EC with a deck featuring him: www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2010ecday2 He's a very good vampire.

> AaronC wrote: > > > Lech wrote: > > Fakir al Sidi ? ... Fact is, there are worse vampires around, some 9-10 caps are quite awful. > > > Fakir al Sidi is in a lot of recent TWDs. For example, Brian Moritz won the 2010 EC with a deck featuring him: www.thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2010ecday2 > > He's a very good vampire. > There is an entire archetypr in which fakir shines, 17 wakes and its varients often use fakir liberally. Hes underrated, probably the most underrated 11 cap in the group. And its because his special is so useless compared to just havine something like" Fakir can burn 1 blood to gain 3 votes against any referendum. This can be done 3 times per action" when it comes down to it, he can team with aksinya, zayyat, micty, or amavi in various decks, ir any combination thereof. OR,the numerous gangrel with presence can easily team with him, especially with some gather action. He has bleed, bloat, and vote from pre, he can tool up with tha, and has block denial with dcthroat. All 11 caps with +1 bleed and fortitude (or are named Eze, with his untappy special) are great to cog. Its better with stealth, but you suddenly have 2 bleeds of 3 in succession to crank out pressure, and everyone from ezmerelda to saulot, to hardestadt to fakir, eleimelech, and hazimel get better with it.

Most certainly the Lasombra 11 cap. Oh, wait, I forgot LSJ hates and

> Pagan wrote: > Most certainly the Lasombra 11 cap. > Because he's nonexistent? Baron of Frankfurt

> Pagan wrote: > Most certainly the Lasombra 11 cap. > > Oh, wait, I forgot LSJ hates and > uh, don't want to burst your bubble, but i'm quite happy there is no lasombra 11 cap. How can it be better than all the bunch of perfectly playable 10 cap lasombra we already have ? If you analyze most archetypes, a lot of 11 cap would never see play if it was not for their special. Take Alexandra in AAA TGB for exemple : why play here over one or two smaller toreador princes ? because she untaps another toreador for free (and also for the votes). If she was not a 11 cap, but had the same special, she would be part of the archetype in the same way. Yes, it's a convoluted exemple, but the point is : it's the specials that make 11 cap playable. Most of the time the disciplines are mimicked by smaller vampires. And I'd rather have 1 less pool/influence to spend to have my big fish ready for action Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

Very true. The only 11 caps that are really good tend to not be that way just based upon disciplines. Saulot might be the exception. But AAA uses the special, and without that, all second trads and marcellous become more efficient. Slava has a strong discipline spread not found elsewhere, abd + bleed with votes, so she may be another exception. But enkidu rushes and hits like a truck, arika is stupid bromen with bleedz voges and disciplines, lutz is all the special, you get the idea. A weak special on an 11 cap decreases it from good to just playable.

> Reyda wrote: > Take Alexandra in AAA TGB for exemple : why play here over one or two smaller toreador princes ? > Unblockable Mind Rapes? "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > > > Reyda wrote: > > Take Alexandra in AAA TGB for exemple : why play here over one or two smaller toreador princes ? > > > Unblockable Mind Rapes? > Needs a mastercard. Shes only got little dom, and realistically, Arika and Slava are bettet at mind raping. Straught unblockable is nice, but Arika has big obfscate, and slava can beast meld, and can easily get to 3 or more stealth even without using daring the dawn. I admit that in theory, mind rapes each turn unblockable is hot, but in practice, finding and playing the 2 master cards and having the mnd rape is less easy than just getting te mind rape and having the action modifiers you use for every other action anyway. And, Slava with an abombwe skill card(trifle, btw) can play dc throat to fail blocks. Alexandra isnt bad, but i would use many 11 and 10 caps (corvus, namely) before hef to mind rape.

> Reyda wrote: > uh, don't want to burst your bubble, but i'm quite happy there is no lasombra 11 cap. How can it be better than all the bunch of perfectly playable 10 cap lasombra we already have ? > > If you analyze most archetypes, a lot of 11 cap would never see play if it was not for their special. > I wholeheartedly agree. (so it mean I can sometime agree with Reyda ? ) There is a lot of powerful 10-cap by the way. Appius Corvius is certainly the one I prefer, but there are also Masika, Shalmath, Thetmes, Tryphosa, The Unnamed, Cailean, and there are certainly a big number of other one are pretty powerful. Now, the gap in power between the average 10+ cap and the average Inner Circle tend to be pretty huge. In short, on average, they have 50% more bleed, 100% more votes, and more or less the same amount of discipline. Or, in other words, being 11-cap and camarilla is a huge boon in point construction, which is pretty strange lore wise, but not too important balance-wise. That's why Inner Circle tend to be much more versatile and consequently played on more varied decks. You wouldn't add masika or Thetmes to a deck if you do not have something to do with their discipline and special. Same thing for Augustus Giovanni or Hazimel. Paying 2-3 more pool for 1 bleed/2 votes is significantly less sexy than for 2 bleed/4 votes. (the FN one tend to have it doubly bad, because not only they only have 2 votes, but their clan tend to have few titled vampires, which drive their value even lower. And, of course, the Sabbat have very few 11-cap, without having significantly better vampire otherwise) PS : of course, there is one Sabbat Inner Circle, Sha-Ennu. I don't try to say he is any less good than the average Inner circle, and it's an interesting vampire, which is not played by Inner Circle of doom deck mainly because he have too few common discipline with the bulk of Inner Circle.