Black Magic Woman - Tremere Black Hand Tap-Bleed

EDIT: Skip to version 3 here . EDIT: Skip to version 2 here . Selena and Yasmin should be the first vampires in play. Dominion and Remover are there to make it easy to push bleeds through; use Rutor's Hand to untap after Remover (or maybe Census Taker). Perfectionist helps recoup the cost of Rutor's Hand and Govern the Unaligned. Mirror Walk prevents combat while acting; Wind Dance should be saved for blocking. Features an Auspex-based defense (instead of just Deflection) for some intercept. Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 3 max: 6 average: 5.08333 3x Selena 6 AUS DOM THA !Tremere:3 2x Yasmin the Black 6 AUS THA dom pre !Tremere:3 2x Aisling Sturbridge 5 AUS THA dom Tremere:2 2x Hannigan 5 AUS THA dom !Tremere:2 1x Cohn Rose 5 THA aus dom pre Tremere:3 1x Brooke 3 dom tha !Tremere:2 1x Ehrich Weiss 3 dom tha Tremere:3 Library [60 cards] Action [12] 9x Govern the Unaligned 3x Rutor's Hand Action Modifier [11] 2x Conditioning 9x Mirror Walk Combat [7] 7x Wind Dance Master [13] 1x Census Taker 1x Dominate 2x Dominion 1x Pentex(TM) Subversion 2x Perfectionist 2x Remover 1x University Hunting Ground 2x Vessel 1x Wider View Reaction [17] 6x Eyes of Argus 3x My Enemy's Enemy 4x On the Qui Vive 4x Telepathic Misdirection

I've been toying with the deck concept, on and off, for years. I really like the synergy between Rutor's Hand and Remover. Let me talk about some of the issues I'm having right now: Why Selena/Yasmin instead of Ash/Cameron? I prefer to combine Selena's DOM with Aisling and Hannigan. I didn't like the supporting crypt options for Ash. 60 cards? You should add x, y, and z... I'm keeping the ratios tight to promote early draws of key cards. I've run 80 and 90 card versions of the deck but in the end all I ever wanted was more bleed. I'm totally open to suggestions, but tell me why it's better than bleeding for 3. You're vulnerable to Sudden Reversal. Got me there. I would like to add action-based tapping, probably in the form of Art's Traumatic Essence. But every time I add that stuff to this kind of deck I don't use it. Looking for suggestions here. This deck loses to Animalism. Hard. This one really bothers me. My only answer right now would be to increase the size of the deck to add Movement of the Mind and Theft of Vitae. I appreciate any comments addressing the deck, my current concerns, and anything else you can come up with.

I also don't think you're that likely to get Selena AND Yasmine... I don't mind the deck otherwise. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

I like it this way: 2x Selena 2x Yasmin the Black Frontador Esoara Mosfair Janine Saiz Keith Moody Ember Wright Piotr Andreikov 2x Remover 2x Anarch Troublemaker Pentex Subversion University Hunting Ground 3x Effective Management Wider View Grooming the Protégé The Coven 10x Govern the Unaligned 2x Rutor’s Hand 4x Recure of the Homeland Sanguine Instruction 4x Conditioning 4x Change of Target 4x Mirror Walk 2x Theft of Vitae 2x Wind Dance 2x Burst of Sunlight Gran Madre di Dio, Italy 4x Eyes of Argus 2x Delaying Tactics 4x Telepathic Misdirection 2x Telepathic Counter Jay Kristoff V:EKN Prince of Columbus, Ohio USA

Thanks for responding to my post, guys. I'd like to address that deck, Mister DJ. The Coven! Change of Target! How did I miss these cards?! I dislike the crypt, but it's good for a couple of reasons. Mosfair and Piotr provide more Remover targets, and Esoara can govern down to the weenies. Can you help me with the non-obvious changes? You didn't like Dominion? I guess there is no real payoff after burning blood. I don't really get Recure of the Homeland. What's with the combat cards? Aside from a surprise Burst of Sunlight I don't get the 2/2/2 thing you have going on there.

> Dorrinal wrote: > Can you help me with the non-obvious changes? You didn't like Dominion? I guess there is no real payoff after burning blood. > Yes, I think this deck is more interested in lowering your opponent's pool than his blood on vamps. > Dorrinal wrote: > I don't really get Recure of the Homeland. > It seems that not many players do. It is crazy good. It combines well with basic Rutor's Hand and Burst of Sunlight. Also, if one of your vamps gets ripped up by Animalism, your next action should be Recure with that vamp, so as to make your wall deck foe have to pick between that leaving of torpor and other, more deadly actions that will come later in your turn. > Dorrinal wrote: > What's with the combat cards? Aside from a surprise Burst of Sunlight I don't get the 2/2/2 thing you have going on there. > Combat options are nice to have. There will be fights when Theft is just what you need. Another way to "tap out" your prey is to fry his big vamp with Burst, then send the Dominate wave. Jay Kristoff V:EKN Prince of Columbus, Ohio USA

> DJ_Assface wrote: > > > Dorrinal wrote: > > I don't really get Recure of the Homeland. > > > It seems that not many players do. It is crazy good. It combines well with basic Rutor's Hand and Burst of Sunlight. Also, if one of your vamps gets ripped up by Animalism, your next action should be Recure with that vamp, so as to make your wall deck foe have to pick between that leaving of torpor and other, more deadly actions that will come later in your turn. > "Usable by a tapped vampire." Recure is a bit better than I thought now that I remember that bit of text. But with my low stealth and weak combat I wanted to avoid extra undirected actions. Having a wall to my left is bad enough considering Rutor's Hand; I didn't want to give them an excuse. Is my concern reasonable? Every time I try a group 3-4 crypt I am tempted by Sennadurek. Is her special strong enough to make up for her discipline deficiency?

> Dorrinal wrote: > ...But with my low stealth and weak combat I wanted to avoid extra undirected actions. Having a wall to my left is bad enough considering Rutor's Hand; I didn't want to give them an excuse. Is my concern reasonable? > With this deck, it is your wall deck opponents who should be concerned about you. Anarch Troublemaker, Remover, Gran Madre, Change of Target, Pentex, the Threat of Burst of Sunlight, and a swarm of vamps with Dominate really make it tough on someone who wants to block a lot. Go ahead and take all of your undirected actions. Force them to make the tough choices about which of your actions to block. When they do block you, make them pay dearly (usually with your next 4 vamps bleeding for a ton). > Dorrinal wrote: > Every time I try a group 3-4 crypt I am tempted by Sennadurek. Is her special strong enough to make up for her discipline deficiency? > Her special is great, in a deck far more reactive than this one. Jay Kristoff V:EKN Prince of Columbus, Ohio USA

> Dorrinal wrote: > Recure is a bit better than I thought now that I remember that bit of text. But with my low stealth and weak combat I wanted to avoid extra undirected actions. Having a wall to my left is bad enough considering Rutor's Hand; I didn't want to give them an excuse. Is my concern reasonable? > > Every time I try a group 3-4 crypt I am tempted by Sennadurek. Is her special strong enough to make up for her discipline deficiency? > Having a wall to your left is bad for that deck anyway, so don't bother. Same goes for ani-combat. There are decks which will almost certainly beat yours. That's the good side of VtES. But there are many others which your deck will bring a hard time. Go for the strengths (as you did) and if you sense many ani-decks around in your area leave it at home and wait for better times. Regarding Sennadurek I have similar thoughts. Her special is insanely good. The lack of Tha is the reason she doesn't make the cut. I'd probably build a BH-deck without the Tha-cards or would add some disciplin-masters. But tha on inferior sucks in your deck a bit, so waiting for two disci-cards isn't golden. So for this deck my advice is let her out. Ah, one thing. I can't imagine that Wind Dance is that good. Against almost every combat-deck the lack of press (or Psyche!) will kill your minions anyway, regardless how often you dodge in the first round. Not speaking of Immortal Grapple. Did you make other experiences? I like the rest of the deck, with the exception of the dominions. Baron of Frankfurt

DJ: You make a strong argument. What worries me is in your crypt, a lack of vampires who can threaten Burst of Sunlight. That makes the "who to block" game a little less interesting. Joscha: Thanks for your comments. Please consider this deck in a competitive tournament metagame, where Animalism appears to be a top-tier deck. Do you think I could oust one as my prey? Can I survive it as a predator? How does this deck compare to other top-tier decks? I am not sure it can avoid being steamrolled by Dementation or breed-boon.

I really like the deck. Especially the crypt hosts many of my fovourite vamps (I really am a fan of Paul Cordwood who doesn't help you because of the lack of black-handness). The typical bleed deck wouldn't be too happy to have you as a predator. I don't know how good it works against the often played Cybele/Ashur/Master type but I fear it will have problems. > > ...where Animalism appears to be a top-tier deck. Do you think I could oust one as my prey? Can I survive it as a predator? > With a ani-combat-deck as prey it will lose for sure, your Wind Dances can't save you from Carrion Crows and the Press of the Aid from Bats. With it as predator it depends on your grandpredator if you have enough time to go forward. Regarding Weenieauspex you'd be in trouble too, even with Burst of Sunlight. They don't care, if some weenie goes to torpor and they block your rescue attempts easily. 'Big' cap wall a la Carna maybe would hesitate to block one of your minions if you play Bursts. But with Wind Dance nobody fears you. But even if you play with Bursts they should be able to bounce your bleeds without the need to block you. I think your deck couldn't match a tier-1-deck (exceptions maybe Edward Vignes or a midcap !Ventrue-Grinder). But playing not such a powerful deck can hold big advantages as the opponents underestimate your potential. My 2 cents (and as I didn't participate in the last EC maybe just 1 cent ) ). P.S. What about Corporal Reservoir with Burst of Sunlight? Synergy baby ;O) Corporal Reservoir Master: trifle. Put this card on any Black Hand vampire. This vampire may tap this card to prevent 1 point of damage in combat or to gain a blood. This card doesn`t untap as normal. This vampire may burn a blood to untap this card during his or her untap phase. Baron of Frankfurt

My first deck, years ago, played Corporal Reservoir + Burst of Sunlight. It wasn't as reliable or effective as it sounds.

> Dorrinal wrote: > My first deck, years ago, played Corporal Reservoir + Burst of Sunlight. It wasn't as reliable or effective as it sounds. > You don't need to base the whole deck around this combo. Having some surprise offensive combat is very good for tap-and-bleed decks, given that Pentex is your only other way to defeat a No Secrets prey (amongst other troublesome prey matchups). The Reservoirs work just fine on their own if you don't need the Bursts, the Bursts combo rather well with Recure, and none of these options are taking up so much space in your library that you're going to choke on them when you need some other card. Given taht this is the textbook example of how to properly build card combos - use cards which are effective on their own and produce even stronger effects when used synergistically - it's worth at least trying it out to see how it fares in actual play. That's what I'll be doing when I rip off this idea to try it out for myself, anyway. B)

You make a good point about the synergies. What I'm saying is that I have tried it out, and Corporal Reservoir is not strong enough on its own to be worth the card spaces. Then again, I am probably going to drop those Dominions anyway...

> Dorrinal wrote: > You make a good point about the synergies. What I'm saying is that I have tried it out, and Corporal Reservoir is not strong enough on its own to be worth the card spaces. > To each their own. I put Life in the City in lots of decks, and Reservoir is simply better than that card.

I don't see this as a "to each their own" situation. Either I dilute the deck by adding trifles, or I replace stronger masters with them. Hence my comment about Dominion: I probably could find room for 1-2 Corporal Reservoir. What would you take out for them?

This is probably a stronger crypt in groups 2-3: 2x Selena 2x Yasmin the Black 1x Aisling Sturbridge 1x Hannigan 1x Kurt Strauss 1x Thelonius 1x Brooke 1x Ehrich Weiss 1x Ember Wright 1x Saiz Totally playable with DJ_Assface's library -- I would need at least need Effective Management in my original library to pull this off.

> Dorrinal wrote: > I don't see this as a "to each their own" situation. > It is, though: To me, free bloodgain (and potential poolgain, since you do have some blood=pool tech in here) isn't dilution, it's additional resilience. It's not as though Corporal Reservoir is a situational card. To you, the Reservoirs aren't worth including, because you don't seem to care much for bloodgain. Those cardslots dilute the purity of the deck's functionality. > Dorrinal wrote: > Either I dilute the deck by adding trifles, or I replace stronger masters with them. Hence my comment about Dominion: I probably could find room for 1-2 Corporal Reservoir. What would you take out for them? > Vessel isn't worth playing in this deck. Its pool cost and slowness to recoup aren't offset by any need of yours to burn Blood Dolls or move blood during your untap phase. Dominion, as already discussed, doesn't really do anything for you (particularly if you add The Coven, which you seemed excited about doing). The Dominate skillcard can be easily replaced by fixing your crypt. Census Taker isn't worth playing, particularly when your only potential targets for it are six-caps - yes, I see the synergy with Rutor's Hand, but it's not worth the pool cost, MPA, and action loss when it's used. Hunting Grounds are rarely worth their cost and MPA, and this deck is planning on going forward fairly quickly, so you're unlikely to profit much from it before the game is over. So: -1 Census Taker -1 Dominate -2 Dominon -1 University Hunting Ground -2 Vessel That should free up some slots for Coven, Reservoirs, an Anarch Troublemaker, and perhaps a Giant's Blood and Blood Dolls.

I know it's a fallacy but if you and Jay both make the same conclusions about which masters to remove, it's worth looking into. For example: Master [12] 2x Anarch Troublemaker 1x Corporal Reservoir 1x Coven, The 3x Effective Management 1x Pentex(TM) Subversion 2x Remover 1x University Hunting Ground 1x Wider View

Sennadurek + Bleed Reduce is powerful. Trying to match it with flick causes you to rely on the edge moving far too much. Sennadurek + Bleed reduce allows you to rely on a single untap event, then stop yourself from being bled. Plus I also see Bleed Reduce as an effective way to waste cards of your predator. Particularly S&B predators - declare a block, wait for the stealth card, then play reduce. It can waste or cripple the action and the stealth card. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Plus I also see Bleed Reduce as an effective way to waste cards of your predator. Particularly S&B predators - declare a block, wait for the stealth card, then play reduce. It can waste or cripple the action and the stealth card. > I disagree. Don't let the S&B predator play his stealth card and he will choke on it. If you try to block AND reduce you just let him cycle his deck. And he will find more +bleed, because this is his main attack. Baron of Frankfurt

Yes, but now he has managed to land a 2- or 3-bleed which would have originally been for 4+. In effect you end up wasting the +bleed card or the action card. Plus if you have enough ways to reduce, you can waste every last card they use in the action. In this regard !Sal have become the best bleed reducing clan in the game... all have worthy reduce cards. Think of it not in terms of 'cards drawn' but cards effectively thrown into the ashheap with minimal effect, discarded during the action. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

Yeah, I'm with you if you say bleed reduce is a good defense against bleed, no question. But in addition I recommend not to try to block, as this strategy just helps the bleeddeck. If you don't try the hand of the Meth is sooner or later full of stealth granting cards which trouble him, if he has no means to cycle them (Dreams, Fragment, Barrens, Heart, you know the stuff). If you help him cycle, and you do by trying to block, he will get more +bleed-cards and you still get bled for 1 or 2 (after the reduce) instead of a nicely zero. So your brilliant defense is watered down to a good defense . Baron of Frankfurt

Yes, but you can't get bled for more than 1 or 2 in an action if your predator has to keep on playing their bleed actions and bleed mods. I'm still letting your predator choke on stealth but also burn all of their offensive cards into the ashheap. Your theory is: If they never get them, they can never play them. My theory is: If they play them for no net effect, they've effectively discarded them. Cycling your predator can be bad for them, especially if you plan to let them stay around until the end game. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Yes, but you can't get bled for more than 1 or 2 in an action if your predator has to keep on playing their bleed actions and bleed mods. I'm still letting your predator choke on stealth but also burn all of their offensive cards into the ashheap. > How much bleed reduction are you including in your decks? It's hard for me to believe that it's enough to actually shut down a stealth/bleed predator the way that you're implying here. Most reasonably good s/b decks have at least a dozen bleed cards and probably as many bleeds mods, each of which will generally inflict as much or more pool loss as you're soaking with even the best bleed reduction. So unless you're including 24 bleed reduction cards, there's something here that I'm not seeing.

This totally reminds me of that Bartholomew deck I played which ran 10x Folderol and 10x Telepathic Counter. Hilarious. Every time I bloat the deck with more defense, it screeches to a halt. Sometimes I get to block some actions, sometimes I defend against a bleed cannon, but then I rarely seem to have enough oomph to keep going forward. The lack of untap in Jay's version of the deck makes me nervous. I expect to tap out every turn; how do I not get run over by another dominate deck, or dementation?

> Dorrinal wrote: > The lack of untap in Jay's version of the deck makes me nervous. I expect to tap out every turn; how do I not get run over by another dominate deck, or dementation? > This is a pretty telling comment, and explains to me some of the confusion I had about the way you built this deck. Had you answered The Lasombra's question about how you expect an average turn to go, we could've gotten here much sooner. Tap-and-bleed decks don't tap out every turn. They don't keep up a middling level of constant pressure on their prey. They keep up a light amount of pressure and then go heavy once their prey's defenses are down (tapped out, just bounced a bunch of bleeds, etc). I'd been wondering why you have so much stealth in this deck, and the revelation that you're playing it more as a stealth/bleed deck with some tapping tech explains that. So to answer your question, you don't tap out every turn. You bleed lightly with one or two minions until the time is right for a lunge, meaning you don't want much untap in the deck, because that'll merely get in the way during a lunge turn. Vignes is the primest example of this; in Feldman's original design for the deck, there's no untap whatsoever, and it's an extremely strong deck if you play it correctly in spite of (well, technically, because of) that.

So, ah... I've been doing it wrong? I suppose I can save face by pointing out I haven't played much in the past 4 years. Jay's inclusion of Telepathic Counter makes a lot more sense now. And judging by my current JOL games, I have been tapping out a bit and once I even discarded a Mirror Walk. Vignes looks so much stronger than this deck, it's a bit discouraging. I laugh every time I see 13x Deflection. Looking at similar decks in the TWDA has made it painfully clear that I don't have enough bleed in the deck.

> Dorrinal wrote: > > Vignes looks so much stronger than this deck, it's a bit discouraging. I laugh every time I see 13x Deflection. Looking at similar decks in the TWDA has made it painfully clear that I don't have enough bleed in the deck. > Well, yes, if you are searching for a new tier-1-deck Vignes will be better. I'm more on the way to build a good deck working with some Black Hand tech. And for that I think your suggestion to go with Rutor's Hand, Remover and big bleed is a good one. You can tap the would-be Bouncer and bleed a lot. I like this idea. I'm sure it is not as strong as some evil decks. So what? It's worth playing and should be fun. You could tune down the combat a bit, so that your bleedcards are on a better ratio. If you feel, you have to much stealth ditch it. But please don't get discouraged just because some evil decks are winning a lot. Believe me, on many tables it is good to keep a low profile and don't scare everyone with a well known winnerdeck. Baron of Frankfurt

My own Orun Cannon deck is similar in play style to the Vignes deck, but it lacks the flick options and is much more expensive on minions. Upsides: Bloats brilliantly (once you buy one minion, you rarely need to pay for another, just use Orun & Brutal Influence to basically bring out minions for free). Downsides: Can be VERY vulnerable to S&B. Nangila Were can remedy that by Rushing, but it's not everything. Most Turns: Declare a number of bleed for 1s, survive the block using Aid from Bats or Majesty. Lunge Turns: Tap out minion that is packed to the eyeballs with Oruns, declare a Brutal Influence Bleed & drop an Iron Glare (the usual upper limit for these bleed actions is 13...) and if you're really lucky play Edge of the World to get a bonus 4 pool for the VP, refill the acting vamp and untap them. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Lunge Turns: Tap out minion that is packed to the eyeballs with Oruns, declare a Brutal Influence Bleed & drop an Iron Glare (the usual upper limit for these bleed actions is 13...) and if you're really lucky play Edge of the World to get a bonus 4 pool for the VP, refill the acting vamp and untap them. > And hope your prey doesn't play bounce (or only bleed reduce, sorry for that Juggernaut ). Baron of Frankfurt

Okay after the discussion here is the version I plan on trying next, shamelessly inspired by DJ_Assface's example. There is a little more bleed squeezed in there, fewer untap and stealth, and some surprise Burst of Sunlight. Slight issue with the crypt: I want to replace Keith Moody. Without Deflection or a variety of Dominate cards, I don't think he's the best vampire for the job. Piotr Andreikov was cool, but I was thinking Andrew Stuart. Could someone with experience playing Stuart shed some light on his special? This deck isn't loaded with Thaumaturgy so I don't expect him to be a total nutpunch, and in return, he can bounce and Govern at superior. Other idea: Valois Sang? Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 3 max: 6 average: 4.5 2x Selena 6 AUS DOM THA !Tremere:3 2x Yasmin the Black 6 AUS THA dom pre !Tremere:3 1x Esoara 5 DOM aus for pot !Tremere:4 1x Frondator 5 AUS dom tha bishop !Tremere:4 1x Janine 4 aus dom tha !Tremere:4 1x Mosfair 4 cel dom tha !Tremere:4 1x Ehrich Weiss 3 dom tha Tremere:3 1x Ember Wright 3 aus dom !Tremere:3 1x Keith Moody 3 DOM !Tremere:4 1x Saiz 3 aus dom !Tremere:3 Library [60 cards] Action [16] 11x Govern the Unaligned 3x Recure of the Homeland 2x Rutor's Hand Action Modifier [15] 4x Change of Target 7x Conditioning 4x Mirror Walk Combat [6] 2x Burst of Sunlight 2x Theft of Vitae 2x Wind Dance Equipment [1] 1x Gran Madre di Dio, Italy Master [10] 2x Anarch Troublemaker 1x Coven, The 3x Effective Management 1x Pentex(TM) Subversion 2x Remover 1x University Hunting Ground Reaction [12] 2x Delaying Tactics 2x Eyes of Argus 2x My Enemy's Enemy 2x Telepathic Counter 4x Telepathic Misdirection

> Joscha wrote: > > > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > > Lunge Turns: Tap out minion that is packed to the eyeballs with Oruns, declare a Brutal Influence Bleed & drop an Iron Glare (the usual upper limit for these bleed actions is 13...) and if you're really lucky play Edge of the World to get a bonus 4 pool for the VP, refill the acting vamp and untap them. > > > And hope your prey doesn't play bounce (or only bleed reduce, sorry for that Juggernaut ). > Never said that deck reliably won games, or is even really close to being a proper Tier 2 deck... but damn its fun to declare a 13-bleed on a prey who think they're safe with around 10 pool... Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Dorrinal wrote: > Slight issue with the crypt: I want to replace Keith Moody. Without Deflection or a variety of Dominate cards, I don't think he's the best vampire for the job. > "Kool" Keith Moody is perfect for this deck. On ousting turns you open with tap effects to turn your prey's minions horizontal. Later in the turn you test with bleeds. Once you are convinced your prey has no Wakes, then send "Kool" Keith to do the dirty work. If you guessed wrong, then yank him back with Change of Target, or let him get crushed in combat, followed by a Recure, then more bleeds. Once you oust your prey with "Kool" Keith be sure to throw a dick towel on him: (nsfw) www.funnyordie.com/videos/4c5be5d537/kool-keith-dick-towel Jay Kristoff V:EKN Prince of Columbus, Ohio USA

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > > Never said that deck reliably won games, or is even really close to being a proper Tier 2 deck... but damn its fun to declare a 13-bleed on a prey who think they're safe with around 10 pool... > Yep, no doubt about that. Or playing a Perfect Clarity/Touch of Clarity on the Bleed and watching their face turning pale . > > Dorrinal" wrote: > Andrew Stuart. Could someone with experience playing Stuart shed some light on his special? This deck isn't loaded with Thaumaturgy so I don't expect him to be a total nutpunch, and in return, he can bounce and Govern at superior. > I play him in a deck really light on Tha, 6 or 7 Magic of the Smith and about 2 Mirror Walks only on 75 cards. There he is really good as the chances are low to trigger his disadvantage. I'm not sure in your deck because you have some tha-cards more and it could be vital to play the Burst in the right moment. You could just give him a try. I actually don't like Esoara, because of being a 5-cap without even tha and just aus. Keith is good, being just a 3-cap. I really like Valois, but I'm mixing Tre/!Tre a lot and don't play Recure of the Homeland. I don't like it if my highest cap vampires cannot play all the cards. Baron of Frankfurt

Monocle of Clarity: hilarious, or a waste of deck space?

I never found it useful, maybe I'm not clever enough to use it wisely. Baron of Frankfurt

If you know at the beginning of your turn whether your prey has untap, it can help you plan your turn.

On JOL I'm kind of getting raped by my prey playing Villein. Any suggestions on making room for Sudden Reversal? Or you think it would be safe to increase the deck size with 2x Wash? Or just ignore the problem?

> Dorrinal wrote: > On JOL I'm kind of getting raped by my prey playing Villein. Any suggestions on making room for Sudden Reversal? Or you think it would be safe to increase the deck size with 2x Wash? Or just ignore the problem? > I suspect that adding a couple Wash or SR is in no way going to hurt the flow of the deck. I'd probably go with SR instead of Wash for anti-Villein issues, as folks usually have a lot of Villeins, and Washing one often results in your prey just gleefully playing a second one.

I played this deck in a qualifier tournament last weekend. I did awful! Here are a few thoughts: Sudden Reversal was worth at least 1 VP. Telepathic Counter is better off as more bounce, probably Deflection. This deck is pretty easy to clock and I simply needed all the extra pressure. I had a couple of stalemate situations in which Blood Doll or Tribute to the Master would have given me an edge. Govern the Unaligned at superior wasn't enough.

Hi, I made a similar deck inspired partly by this deck and comments in this thread. It's sufficiently different that I put it in it's own thread , but sufficiently similar that I thought I'd mention it here. It is a bit on the large side but (surprisingly?) I didn't experience any major card flow issues with it. Possibly just lucky.

New version based on my experience at the Las Vegas Qualifier. No, it's not that different. What would you include for potential pool gain, if anything? Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 3 max: 6 average: 4.5 2x Selena 6 AUS DOM THA !Tremere:3 2x Yasmin the Black 6 AUS THA dom pre !Tremere:3 1x Esoara 5 DOM aus for pot !Tremere:4 1x Frondator 5 AUS dom tha bishop !Tremere:4 1x Janine 4 aus dom tha !Tremere:4 1x Mosfair 4 cel dom tha !Tremere:4 1x Ehrich Weiss 3 dom tha Tremere:3 1x Ember Wright 3 aus dom !Tremere:3 1x Keith Moody 3 DOM !Tremere:4 1x Saiz 3 aus dom !Tremere:3 Library [60 cards] Action [16] 10x Govern the Unaligned 3x Recure of the Homeland 3x Rutor's Hand Action Modifier [13] 4x Change of Target 5x Conditioning 4x Mirror Walk Combat [6] 2x Burst of Sunlight 2x Theft of Vitae 2x Wind Dance Equipment [1] 1x Gran Madre di Dio, Italy Master [12] 2x Anarch Troublemaker 1x Coven, The 3x Effective Management 1x Pentex(TM) Subversion 2x Remover 2x Sudden Reversal 1x University Hunting Ground Reaction [12] 2x Deflection 2x Delaying Tactics 3x My Enemy's Enemy 2x On the Qui Vive 3x Telepathic Misdirection FYI, I do not own Eyes of Argus. I used My Enemy's Enemy for intercept a couple of times. Would it be better off as Deflection and/or Telepathic Misdirection for forward pressure? I don't think so, but I'd love to entertain further discussion.

No use for Blood of Sandman here? Replacing the Change of Target for instance. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > No use for Blood of Sandman here? Replacing the Change of Target for instance. > Blood of Sandman is just plain awesome. It is annoying like hell for prey and predator. I wouldn't replace the Change of Targets when using Blood of Sandman, as they help tapping vampires in the first place. pckvtes.wordpress.com

I don't own any Blood of Sandman. But if I did, I would consider replacing one recure or rutor's hand with it. On the other hand, that is a lot of blood to spend on something that isn't Conditioning...

> Dorrinal wrote: > I don't own any Blood of Sandman. But if I did, I would consider replacing one recure or rutor's hand with it. On the other hand, that is a lot of blood to spend on something that isn't Conditioning... > A lot of blood is dependent on the viewpoint. For 2 blood you can either burn an ally at stealth, or kill the defence-capability of a vampire that get's tapped permanently at 6! stealth. No blocks there. Vampires with Blood of Sandman do behave strangly. They are unwilling to tap for bleeds, and they are reluctant to block unsuspicious actions which they could block easily... I'm a huge fan of Blood of Sandman. It's totally worth the action and the 2 blood in the long run. pckvtes.wordpress.com

You could always start doing some protective shennanigans... Seeds of Corruption on a key big bleeder from your predator might be nice. Or maybe Slaughtering the Herd at Superior. Take out the Coven. It will nearly always save someone who you don't want to save, when you don't want them to be saved... Replace it with at least 1 Tribute to the Master. You should be using Tribute. 1 MPA = 2+ pool without crippling your minions. I'd even take out the HG and put in another Tribute. Your combat is kind of all over the place and unreliable. I'd be saying if you can, all Thefts or all Wind Dances or at least replace the Bursts with Thefts or Dances. You're probably not going to be nuking vampires everywhere, so I think the whole "Burst + Recure" tech is too improbable to be reliable. Your weenies with should be utilising Redirections and ignore Auspex flick. You have dominate flick, so use it. Possibly as another "surprise" move, put in a copy or two of Misdirection. It is GREAT for a lunge turn because the first thing you do is almost unblockably tap a key blocker of your prey. The number of times I would have been shafted by people using it against me is higher than I would ever admit during the game... Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Seeds of Corruption on a key big bleeder from your predator might be nice. > but illegal by card text.... "Put this card on one of your prey's vampires." Seeds of Corruption 2 +1 stealth action. Put this card on one of your prey's vampires. If the vampire is a Follower of Set, he or she burns 2 additional blood when attempting an action; otherwise, he or she burns 1 additional blood when attempting an action. The vampire's special abilities cannot be used. Any vampire(s) may burn this card with two +1 stealth actions. As above, but the vampire burns 2 additional blood when attempting an action; Followers of Set burn 3 additional blood.

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Take out the Coven. It will nearly always save someone who you don't want to save, when you don't want them to be saved... Replace it with at least 1 Tribute to the Master. You should be using Tribute. 1 MPA = 2+ pool without crippling your minions. I'd even take out the HG and put in another Tribute. > > Your combat is kind of all over the place and unreliable. I'd be saying if you can, all Thefts or all Wind Dances or at least replace the Bursts with Thefts or Dances. You're probably not going to be nuking vampires everywhere, so I think the whole "Burst + Recure" tech is too improbable to be reliable. > > Your weenies with should be utilising Redirections and ignore Auspex flick. You have dominate flick, so use it. > > Possibly as another "surprise" move, put in a copy or two of Misdirection. It is GREAT for a lunge turn because the first thing you do is almost unblockably tap a key blocker of your prey. The number of times I would have been shafted by people using it against me is higher than I would ever admit during the game... > The Coven is a great way to slow combat decks and pay for Rutor's Hand and all the expensive bleed cards. If you read up to the first page you'll find it was my favorite suggestion. Combat is fine. The idea is to play anything besides hands-for-1 a few times. Burst is a good choice because of Recure; Theft is always a good choice. I could see dropping most/all of the combat, but for what? There are plenty of bleed modifiers already and more masters would hurt card flow. Redirection can only be used when being bled by a younger vampire. It is worthless in this deck. Furthermore, the bounce was deliberately chosen because of its intercept; if this deck has the audacity to do a bunch of 1-stealth actions like Rutor's Hand and Govern the Unaligned, you bet there will be similar actions to block. Making room for Misdirection is a tough call, and I've considered it several times. I could increase the deck size and go up to 14+ masters accordingly. Dropping an Anarch Troublemaker and maybe the Pentex for Misdirection looks like a wash.