FOR PASCAL:
Does Catatonic Fear + Target Vitals "work"?
Why or Why Not?
Links please, thank you for your time
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017
in a nutshell !
lsj already ruled that it works.
(search the old google groups EDIT: did it for ya : groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/plqseTAyBJo)
The damage cannot be prevented by usual means (cause it's done outside combat).
If you dodge, you are protected from it, as usual.
Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
> KevinM wrote:
> FOR PASCAL:
>
> Does Catatonic Fear + Target Vitals "work"?
> Why or Why Not?
> Links please, thank you for your time
>
Name: Catatonic Fear
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Presence
Strike: combat ends.
As above, and inflict 1 damage to the opposing minion once combat ends if the range is close.
Name: Target Vitals
Cardtype: Combat
Aim. Play when choosing a strike.
If any damage from this strike is successfully inflicted on the opposing minion, he or she takes an additional 2 damage from this strike, and he or she cannot press this round. The opposing minion may discard two combat cards [COMBAT] to cancel this card. A minion may play only one aim each strike.
Yes, it "works" (i.e. Catatonic Fear would inflict 1+2 damage after combat ends). Reyda provided the link: [LSJ 20070927] .
Why: because Catatonic Fear is a strike that inflicts damage (if it isn't prevented*), and Target Vitals add damage to a damage-inflicting strike.
*: Remember, only Leather Jacket can save you from Catatonic Fear's damage. Regular combat cards can't, as they are only usable in combat, and Catatonic Fear's damage happens after combat has ended.
Surge would also save an imbued since the counters last for the duration of the action.(Note that react with conviction could also be used to cancel the Catatonic as it is played. )
Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
This same ruling also came to apply to Loving Agony, incidentally, which I think is the only other effec that comes under the same mechanism.
(The two cards were worded differently, but actually inflict the damage in the same way, afaik.)
Here we go again....
Dave Knowles (Advanced)
Sabbat Bishop of Manchester
> Shockwave wrote:
> (The two cards were worded differently, but actually inflict the damage in the same way, afaik.)
>
I have a doubt about this.
Catatonic Fear: the damage is inflicted by the vampire playing it.
Loving Agony: the damage is "environmental".
Target Vitals work for both (since both strikes inflict damage) but the source of the damage is not the same.
Name: Catatonic Fear
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Presence
Strike: combat ends.
As above, and inflict 1 damage to the opposing minion once combat ends if the range is close.
Name: Loving Agony
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Valeren/Animalism
Only usable at close range.
[ani] Strike: hand strike at +1 damage.
[val] Strike: combat ends and the opposing minion takes 1 damage.
[VAL] As [val] above, and this vampire may burn 1 blood to untap before combat ends.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Both of the forms of damage are bound to the strike.
They are both "S:CE and XYZ" (like Majesty). So when you declare the strike you may also play TV (choosing the strike) and TV only checks "Did this strike deal damage?" and not "Was damage inflicted on the opposing minion by this striking minion?" (i.e. it is not worded Disarm). If the strike deals damage (including environmental damage) then the TV triggers itself and adds 2 to that damage.
If you S:D either Catatonic or Loving Agony you should, because you avoid all effects of a strike which targets you by using a S:D, avoid the damage outside combat of both cards and neutralise TV.
Target Vitals
Type: Combat
Aim. Play when choosing a strike.
If any damage from this strike is successfully inflicted on the opposing minion, he or she takes an additional 2 damage from this strike, and he or she cannot press this round. The opposing minion may discard two combat cards [COMBAT] to cancel this card. A minion may play only one aim each strike.
Disarm
Type: Combat
Requires: Potence
[pot] Only usable at the end of a round of combat in which this vampire successfully inflicted more damage at close range than the opposing vampire. Not usable by a vampire being burned or going into torpor. Put this card on the opposing vampire and send that vampire into torpor. The vampire with this card has -1 strength. He or she may burn this card by burning 3 blood. A vampire can have only one Disarm.
[POT] As above, but the vampire with this card has -2 strength.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
@Juggernaut: yes, I was just pointing out that Loving Agony was "environmental" damage, whereas Catatonic Fear is inflicted by the minion.
It could matter if Saulot is in combat with Nergal (with valeren). Saulot wouldn't take any damage from a Catatonic Fear, but would take damage from a Loving Agony.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> @Juggernaut: yes, I was just pointing out that Loving Agony was "environmental" damage, whereas Catatonic Fear is inflicted by the minion.
> It could matter if Saulot is in combat with Nergal (with valeren). Saulot wouldn't take any damage from a Catatonic Fear, but would take damage from a Loving Agony.
>
I was just making the difference between TV and Disarm's check for the damage. TV checks the strike, Disarm checks the minion.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> wesile wrote:
> Hum... why is disarm added to this conversation? - You cannot play disarm after catatonic fear...
>
Wesile, because TV (and the other Targets) don't make the 'usual' check. Most of the other cards check the damage from the minions. TV checks damage from the strike. Consequently, TV will work on any strike that deals damage (even Catatonic Fear and Loving Agony or any future strike) even if that card deals environmental damage as part of its strike.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
I don't think I agree Ankha; You can, for example, Dodge both of these 'Strikes' even as they Combat Ends. You don't Dodge environmental, you can Dodge Loving Agony, I believe.
Combat still ends, the LA Vampire may still untap, but the opposing minion can Dodge the damage as their Strike.
(I think this is the only place this applies, Dawn Op would make it aggravated whether it's environmental or not, you can't Disarm from either card, and you can't prevent either anyway, so whether it's environment or not might be moot after that point.)
Here we go again....
Dave Knowles (Advanced)
Sabbat Bishop of Manchester
> Shockwave wrote:
> You don't Dodge environmental.
>
You're sure ? You don't dodge Carrion, but it's not because they are environnemental, it's because it's not a strike. I don't see any mention in the rule that let believe environnemental damage have any influence on dodge either.
> Shockwave wrote:
> I don't think I agree Ankha; You can, for example, Dodge both of these 'Strikes' even as they Combat Ends. You don't Dodge environmental, you can Dodge Loving Agony, I believe.
>
> Combat still ends, the LA Vampire may still untap, but the opposing minion can Dodge the damage as their Strike.
>
> (I think this is the only place this applies, Dawn Op would make it aggravated whether it's environmental or not, you can't Disarm from either card, and you can't prevent either anyway, so whether it's environment or not might be moot after that point.)
>
Actually, I would suggest that the only reason why you can't Disarm after Catatonic Fear is purely because the combat is over (and you can't play Disarm) and not because of the requirements of Disarm (beyond the fact it is a combat card).
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> edminister wrote:
> Link is redirected to the new Google groups page.
>
Which link? The one Reyda provided, or the mine afterwards?
They both point to the same page, but the phpbb module on the forum "ends" the link at the # character in Reyda's post.
> Pascal wrote:
> Remember, only Leather Jacket can save you from Catatonic Fear's damage. Regular combat cards can't, as they are only usable in combat, and Catatonic Fear's damage happens after combat has ended.
>
As well as Surge, which Reyda mentions, Nephandus's special also works. [LSJ 20080630]
> Shockwave wrote:
> (The two cards were worded differently, but actually inflict the damage in the same way, afaik.)
>
> Ankha wrote:
> I have a doubt about this.
> Catatonic Fear: the damage is inflicted by the vampire playing it.
> Loving Agony: the damage is "environmental".
>
> Target Vitals work for both (since both strikes inflict damage) but the source of the damage is not the same.
>
I have a different doubt about this. It seems to me there may be a slightly different timing window for CF and LA.
CF "inflict(s) 1 damage...once combat ends." This timing window has been ruled to be outside of combat so you can't play damage prevention combat cards. By the same logic, you couldn't play Taste of Vitae afterwards either since combat has ended and no combat cards can be played.
LA reads "combat ends and the opposing minion takes 1 damage." To me that implies those effects are applied simultaneously. If this is true, you can play end of round effects after LA, such as Taste of Vitae. IIRC, you can play Taste of Vitae after S:CE because it is still an end of round card (hand strike, additional strike(s), majesty/earth meld, taste), or even Disarm by the same reasoning.
But, if LA damage can be Tasted, then it should be preventable too, right? Combat cards can still be played, so any time damage is inflicted, combat cards which prevent damage should be eligible.
Any additional clarifications are welcome since I expect to see this situation with both CF and LA in tournaments this weekend. Thanks.
> Name: Catatonic Fear
> Cardtype: Combat
> Cost: 1 blood
> Discipline: Presence
> Strike: combat ends.
> As above, and inflict 1 damage to the opposing minion once combat ends if the range is close.
>
> Name: Loving Agony
> Cardtype: Combat
> Cost: 1 blood
> Discipline: Valeren/Animalism
> Only usable at close range.
> [ani] Strike: hand strike at +1 damage.
> [val] Strike: combat ends and the opposing minion takes 1 damage.
> [VAL] As [val] above, and this vampire may burn 1 blood to untap before combat ends.
>
When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
Aim. Play when choosing a strike.
If any damage from this strike is successfully inflicted on the opposing minion, he or she takes an additional 2 damage from this strike, and he or she cannot press this round. The opposing minion may discard two combat cards to cancel this card. A minion may play only one aim each strike.
Once/when the combat ends cards are after the strike resolution phase...actually after the entire combat is over...so can't be healed in the regular manner... I believe leather jacket and maybe blood tears of kephran...nope just checked says in combat...
GL in tournie
> Jeff wrote:
> I have a different doubt about this. It seems to me there may be a slightly different timing window for CF and LA.
>
> CF "inflict(s) 1 damage...once combat ends." This timing window has been ruled to be outside of combat so you can't play damage prevention combat cards. By the same logic, you couldn't play Taste of Vitae afterwards either since combat has ended and no combat cards can be played.
>
> LA reads "combat ends and the opposing minion takes 1 damage." To me that implies those effects are applied simultaneously. If this is true, you can play end of round effects after LA, such as Taste of Vitae. IIRC, you can play Taste of Vitae after S:CE because it is still an end of round card (hand strike, additional strike(s), majesty/earth meld, taste), or even Disarm by the same reasoning.
>
No, damage is done after combat.
groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/PMfeHfvc7ys/dT5XN0_6L4EJ
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > Jeff wrote:
> > I have a different doubt about this. It seems to me there may be a slightly different timing window for CF and LA.
> >
> > CF "inflict(s) 1 damage...once combat ends." This timing window has been ruled to be outside of combat so you can't play damage prevention combat cards. By the same logic, you couldn't play Taste of Vitae afterwards either since combat has ended and no combat cards can be played.
> >
> > LA reads "combat ends and the opposing minion takes 1 damage." To me that implies those effects are applied simultaneously. If this is true, you can play end of round effects after LA, such as Taste of Vitae. IIRC, you can play Taste of Vitae after S:CE because it is still an end of round card (hand strike, additional strike(s), majesty/earth meld, taste), or even Disarm by the same reasoning.
> >
> No, damage is done after combat.
>
> groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/PMfeHfvc7ys/dT5XN0_6L4EJ
>
Correct. See also General Rulings: Combat : "If the strike does something in addition to ending combat, that something takes place just after the combat ends. [RTR 19970630] " (soon to be updated with "something {else than untapping}"
What is the reason for that general ruling since there is always and end of round phase? Or to say it differently: when that ruling was made in 1997, could you play a Taste of Vitae after a combat ends, and were people aware of it? Obviously, the early designers were not comfortable with combat stuff happening after a combat ends. That's how we got Psyche!, the combat card played outside of combat. Since you decided to fix Psyche!, I would find it logical to fix that ruling as well.
> Non-existant user wrote:
> What is the reason for that general ruling since there is always and end of round phase? Or to say it differently: when that ruling was made in 1997, could you play a Taste of Vitae after a combat ends, and were people aware of it? Obviously, the early designers were not comfortable with combat stuff happening after a combat ends. That's how we got Psyche!, the combat card played outside of combat. Since you decided to fix Psyche!, I would find it logical to fix that ruling as well.
>
I don't know what is "obvious", especially with rulings that old.
What is sure is that changing the ruling has quite an impact since damage from a Catatonic Fear could be prevented for instance, and tasted.
Moving Psyche! from outside combat to combat induces only a marginal effect that is you can now cancel it with Death Seeker.
In truth, a ruling is needed either way. "Combat ends, and the opposing minion takes 1 damage" could be interpreted both ways (either the damage is dealt at the same time combat ends, or the damage is dealt after combat ends).
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Pascal wrote:
> Correct. See also General Rulings: Combat : "If the strike does something in addition to ending combat, that something takes place just after the combat ends. [RTR 19970630] " (soon to be updated with "something {else than untapping}"
>
Thanks for this. Pascal has the toughest job on the IC and does it admirably.
When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
> Non-existant user wrote:
> What is the reason for that general ruling since there is always and end of round phase?
>
There were differences between various CCGs on this sort of thing. As I recall, Magic had disputes about: Is "end of turn" a specific step after all the other phases of a turn (which might be lost if you jump out of the normal order)? Or is it whenever the turn ends (if something aborts it prematurely)?
It had to be resolved one way or the other, I guess.
LSJ appears to have generally preferred not imbuing words with magical meaning, if not necessary. (What you think is necessary and what he thought was necessary may differ, of course.) So the end of a turn is whenever the turn ends. The end of a round is whenever a round ends.
> Non-existant user wrote:
> Or to say it differently: when that ruling was made in 1997, could you play a Taste of Vitae after a combat ends, and were people aware of it?
>
No, because Taste of Vitae wasn't played at the end of the round. It was played "after strike resolution", which you'd just "interrupted" with Majesty. [LSJ 19980113] (Note that the reference to the end of round in that ruling is talking about when Drawing out the Beast did its damage - during the Press step, by Sabbat text - not the general timing of Taste of Vitae per se.)
ToV's card text changed on this point in Camarilla Edition. (Looking at the scans on vtes.pl and web.archive.org/web/20070102210459/http://www.white-wolf.com/VTES/migration.html )
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
> There were differences between various CCGs on this sort of thing.
>
Actually, there are already differences within VTES: "action ends" effects prevent you from playing any other effect in that action, "combat ends" effects do not prevent you from playing any other effect in that combat.
> Non-existant user wrote:
>
> > jamesatzephyr wrote:
> > There were differences between various CCGs on this sort of thing.
> >
> Actually, there are already differences within VTES: "action ends" effects prevent you from playing any other effect in that action, "combat ends" effects do not prevent you from playing any other effect in that combat.
>
I think James's point was that there wasn't really back in ye old days of yore as obedience/kiss of ra probably weren't played how they are now (I certainly recall players ferajkign after kiss of ra for many years!)
> Non-existant user wrote:
> Actually, there are already differences within VTES: "action ends" effects prevent you from playing any other effect in that action, "combat ends" effects do not prevent you from playing any other effect in that combat.
>
It's an interesting parallel, but - I think - not one that's exact.
When combat ends (and the round ends), you can fit in a bunch of "As the round ends" or "As the combat ends" effects. For example, you can play cards such as Taste of Vitae:
Only usable at the end of a round of combat.
Disarm:
Only usable at the end of a round of combat in which
Pulled Fangs:
Only usable at the end of a round of combat in which
Amaranth: Implicitly played at the end of a round (wounded vampire going to torpor = ends the combat), covered specifically in RTR 20-OCT-2000.
All of these sort of effects are playable after, say, Strike: Combat Ends, Rotschreck, Elysium: The Arboretum, or Mariel, Lady Thunder. (Again, RTR 20-OCT-2000.) The triggering condition for them to be played happens, so you can play it. You can also obviously play cards like Telepathic Tracking and Psyche! (The details of Psyche! have obviously changed a little.) You can even play Hidden Lurker and fizzle the rest of Rotschreck, because you trigger the condition of Hidden Lurker.
As far as I can tell, 99% of action modifiers (or reactions) do not have windows that they trigger in such as "As the action ends" (equivalent to "As the round ends" or "As the combat ends"). Without that, you just order them one after the other - play, resolve, play, resolve. If playing one of them invalidates a play that either player would make later, that's just tough cookies. For example:
1) I am the acting player/have the impulse and use an effect before range is chosen that ends combat. (Elysium, Purchase Pact, Mariel etc.) Your blocking Trujah does not get to quickly say "Well, I hit you with Outside the Hourglass then", because it can't "interrupt" the resolution of Elysium without some triggering text.
2) I play Call of the Hungry Dead, ending (failing) the block attempt of your only vampire. That about-to-not-be-a-blocker can't sneak in during that point and say "While the block is about to fail, I play Elder Intervention, just to cycle." No triggering text, so it can't be played. So we fully resolve Call of the Hungry Dead, now you can play your effect - but it's impossible now that you're not blocking.
So if you have an effect that triggers "at the end of an action", you might be able to play it when an action ends through - say - Kiss of Ra. It does have triggering text to interrupt the normal "play-resolve, then the next one" mechanism. (Or more generally: resolve one effect at a time. Not all cards resolve as they are played: actions and strikes. But you do generally fully resolve the card before moving on to the next effect.) See [LSJ 20100409] . There is some back and forth in the thread, but I think LSJ acknowledges that Momentary Delay would be playable as the action ends from Kiss of Ra except...
Kiss of Ra: "The block attempt is canceled, the blocking vampire burns 2 blood, and the current action is ended (without combat)...."
Momentary Delay: "Only usable at the end of an action blocked by..."
And since the block has been cancelled, the extra requirement isn't met - so it isn't playable.
I'm fairly certain I am not misrepresenting the output of that thread to say that LSJ retreats from:
> LSJ, wrote:
> > 1) Kiss of Ra ends the action, as noted by floppy,
> > 2) Kiss of Ra cancels the block, so the action is not blocked, as you
> > noted, and
> > 3) this vampire lost 3 blood, unless xe somehow pays less for Kiss of
> > Ra.
>
> > So there would seem to be plenty of reasons why you can't play
> > Momentary Delay after Kiss of Ra.
>
> Correct.
>
(Which potentially endorses all the points.)
To:
> LSJ, wrote:
> > I'm not trying to be difficult, but it doesn't seem to make sense.
> > Kiss of Ra ends an action, and another card, Momentary Delay, is
> > playable after the end of an action ...
>
> As you and wumpus both noted, Momentary Delay is not usable because it
> is only usable after a blocked action, and the action in question is
> not blocked.
>
Which to me appears to be saying that Momentary Delay would be playable then, except that its other criteria aren't met.
Freak isn't playable, because it's played "at the end of a successful action" - the action wasn't successful - or "even if it was blocked" which, per that Momentary Delay response above, "the action in question is not blocked". Ditto Sleep Unseen: "Only usable at the end of a successful action." Truth of a Thousand Lies: "Only usable at the end of a successful action" Vigilance: "Only usable at the end of a successful action "
I think you might be overreading it.
"Momentary Delay isn't playable because A, B, and C" + "remove A, B and C" should drive you to "Is Momentary Delay playable", rather than "Momentary Delay is playable".
It's the same ruling as Obedience + Freak Drive : [LSJ 20040927] .
See also the philosophy behind [LSJ 19981029]
> Pascal wrote:
> I think you might be overreading it.
> "Momentary Delay isn't playable because A, B, and C" + "remove A, B and C" should drive you to "Is Momentary Delay playable", rather than "Momentary Delay is playable".
>
I read this as:
"Momentary Delay isn't playable because of A and B."
"But doesn't Momentary Delay's text say it can be played despite A?"
"Momentary Delay still isn't playable because of B."
> Pascal wrote:
> It's the same ruling as Obedience + Freak Drive : [LSJ 20040927].
>
> See also the philosophy behind [LSJ 19981029]
>
Hence I'm basing my question on a (significantly) later ruling.
[LSJ 20100206] wrote:
>
> > The acting vampire played Mirror Walk superior, and got successfully
> > blocked. Can he play Momentary Delay on this action (it should be No,
> > with similarity to Mirror Walk & Freak Drive)?
>
> Right. Cannot play modifiers after the end of the action.
>
(Now, I'm getting confused with Google Groups's date representation, but at least this one is pretty close both in time and in content to the ruling you're looking for)
> Pascal wrote:
> [LSJ 20100206] wrote:
> >
> > > The acting vampire played Mirror Walk superior, and got successfully
> > > blocked. Can he play Momentary Delay on this action (it should be No,
> > > with similarity to Mirror Walk & Freak Drive)?
> >
> > Right. Cannot play modifiers after the end of the action.
> >
> (Now, I'm getting confused with Google Groups's date representation, but at least this one is pretty close both in time and in content to the ruling you're looking for)
>
It's still earlier.
But I tap Elysium: The Arboretum, or play Rotschreck, or resolve an S:CE strike. The round ends (and the combat). Why can I play end-of-round effects here? Surely there is no combat to play combat cards in?
Since I am allowed to sneak Taste of Vitae in during a "combat ends" effect, why am I not allowed to similarly sneak "at the end of the action" effects in during an "action ends" effect?
Why is "action ends" apparently atomic, but "combat ends" is not atomic?
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
> Why is "action ends" apparently atomic, but "combat ends" is not atomic?
>
Related questions:
"At the end of your turn" is still during your turn. There is no 'between turns' phase. [LSJ 20090731]
When the turn ends from Last Stand going off, can I trigger Carrion Coffin?
LS: " When any other Methuselah is ousted, the current turn ends (after the current action is concluded, if any)"
CC: "The vampire with this card may burn 1 blood to untap at the end of any Methuselah's turn."
Is the turn ending atomic or non-atomic?
Is there a difference between a voluntary effect (such as CC) and a mandatory effect, such as Leather Jacket's untap?
LJ: "If the action to equip with the Leather Jacket is successful, untap the acting minion at the end of the turn."
Morphean Blow would also be interesting - if I can't burn the card at the end of the turn, Last Stand could leave it on me forever.
MB: "[val] Strike: combat ends and put this card on the opposing minion. This minion cannot take actions or block. Burn this card at the end of the turn."
Acting minion plays Mirror Walk, blocking minion plays Strix. The action ends, and the block is still apparently successful. This doesn't trigger the "untap me" effect [FZD 20111212] but is apparently on the list for review. But end of the action effects don't occur, apparently. So...
... I play Cleave during a combat to create a temporary melee weapon.
Cleave: "Choose a melee weapon this imbued has or spend 1 conviction [1 CONVICTION] to put this card on this imbued to represent a melee weapon... Burn the melee weapon at the end of the action."
The acting minion plays Form of Mist during the combat. (For the sake of argument, I played my Cleave earlier - during before range - hoping to draw into a maneuver or something, maybe, if anyone wants to say "Why wouldn't you play Cleave after they've chosen their strike.) So the acting minion plays Form of Mist, or another end-combat+action continuer, during the combat. The Cleave weapon stays on me for now, usable if I block again. During the subsequent block attempt, the action is now ended with an effect. Say, Mirror Walk, or maybe Kiss of Ra if I also control a vampire. (But it could be any other action-ender, if that would make a difference.) Strix will not untap me at the end of the action, so will Cleave burn at the end of the action? (If yes, why the difference?) Do I get to keep the Cleave forever? This is unlike, say, a temporary theft of a vampire effect, where the control is gifted "until the end of your turn", and once that expires, there's nothing keeping them there. There's just an effect saying "burn it", much like there was a Strix effect saying "untap me".
I have a Pere Lachaise in play and enough pool on it to bring back the vampire. Last Stand is in play (mine or someone else's). I play Retribution on a vampire with Fame, which causes sufficient pool damage to oust that player. Last Stand ends the turn (and therefore my master phase). Does Pere Lachaise trigger?
PL: " If the blood on the vampire equals the vampire's capacity, place the vampire in the ready region at the end of the master phase and burn this card."
Edit to add: If this is too contrived (though anything involving Pere Lachaise is!), imagine I filled up Pere Lachaise in order to have one less pool than my prey, so I could play Personal Involvement, ousting them. End addition.
Vicissitude Poisoning is in play, and during a stealth/intercept fight a Tzimisce hits the appropriate number of poison counters. They end the action somehow - Kiss of Ra, for example, or perhaps the block is successful but they played Mirror Walk. Do they burn?
VP: "If the number of poison counters on this card is greater than the capacity of the vampire, burn him or her at the end of the current action or combat."
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
> As far as I can tell, 99% of action modifiers (or reactions) do not have windows that they trigger in such as "As the action ends" (equivalent to "As the round ends" or "As the combat ends").
>
Actions modifiers and reactions are not the only effects playable during an action. You also have all the untimed effects such as drawing from the Dreams or gaining blood from the Coven. I cannot of an example right now where it matters whether the blood is gained before or after the end of the action, though.
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
> Related questions:
>
Another related question.
If the Methuselah loses control of the acting minion before the resolution of the action, then the action ends. [RTR 19970630]
What counts as losing control? The original ruling tells us:
14) If a minion takes an action but the acting player loses control of it
before the action is successful, the action simply ends. A player loses
control of a minion that is burned, stolen, and so on. Note that a vampire
that goes into torpor (or that began the action while in torpor) is still
controlled by the acting player, so it can complete the action.
Two vampires are in combat. The acting one is burned. The action ends (the RTR 1997 ruling).
Does the apparently atomic "action ends" window include a non-atomic "round ends" and "combat ends" window?
Can the reacting vampire play Cats' Guidance? There is no action left to react to. Apparently yes. [LSJ 20090922]
> LSJ, wrote:
> > Finally, if the blocking minion burns the acting in combat, can he
> > play Cats' Guidance inf' ?
> > I'd say he can.
>
> Yes.
>
So in some cases, action ends ends the action irrevocably and there's no action left to react to. But here you can still play it, even though the "action ends".
The linked ruling from that ruling talks about torporising not burning (and torporizing isn't covered by the 1997 loss of control ruling, because you don't lose control), but it tells us that the action moves to "the action is ending".
So in some cases, "the action ends" is atomic (Kiss of Ra, Mirror Walk), and in some cases "the action ends" is not atomic (2009 ruling, the normal end of the action).
By the way, I found an example where using the Coven during of after the action matters: Slake the Thirst at . You cannot play Slake the Thirst on the Coven if you use it between actions.