Regarding unplayable or overpowered cards

Is there an authority (like LSJ before) who would i adress nerf/buff suggestions for cards? there are tons of unplayable cards now and it would be nice to use them. its better to improve existent cards than make new expansion in my opinion just making Ascendance trifle would make it playable. Or make Deal with the Devil cost x pool but burn 2x cards at random from another metuselah hand. is there anybody to whine to?

There is this forum, and the Card Suggestion forum. Pascal Bertrand is the new LSJ. Note that your idea have a 99% chance to be refused, and a 1% chance to be siw month later heavily modified and taken into account. That's because changing the text of a card is something extremely costly (in that people must learn that the card have changed), and will only be done if this open new and exciting options, and/or that it help a lot with the balance of the game. Preferably both. As a side note, both of your suggestions are likely to be ignored, because they ain't all that interesting.

I'm not sure LSJ ever dealt with nerfing cards. He did ban some of them (PTO, Edge Explosion, Memories of Mortality), but I can't recall one he changed. I did change Villein a couple of years ago. Now, is it really better to have cards that don't do what they read rather than to have cards that are better than others? We will *always* have some less interesting cards. That's a fact. Do we want to change from time to time what these cards are? I don't think so. You're free to whine. Whining, so far, hasn't proven itself extremely useful (I'm sure we can find 10+ yo whining on Voter Captivation or Giant's Blood. Or Freak Drive). The bottom line is: If I change Ascendance and make it Trifle, won't I have to ban it afterwards because it has become overpowered? Plus, I don't see why Ascendance is bad. It's won a tournament recently

> Pascal wrote: > Plus, I don't see why Ascendance is bad. It's won a tournament recently > Next challenge: Eyes of the Dead.

> Non-existant user wrote: > > > Pascal wrote: > > Plus, I don't see why Ascendance is bad. It's won a tournament recently > > > Next challenge: Eyes of the Dead. > I am sure there are intermediary step. Like Twisting the Knife.

Suggestions are great. Ascendance is not one of those cards however. In fact, it is a fundamental card of V:TES. It is a free Master which grants you 1 pool. All other Master cards with a pool/blood component must be balanced against this one at some level as they are being designed. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Jeff wrote: > All other Master cards with a pool/blood component must be balanced against this one at some level as they are being designed. > I think you're wrong. Card are not designed against an etalon, like Ascendance could be, but against the existing card pool. There is no absolute etalon for card design ; rather, cards, like currency or stocks, are evaluated compared to each other.

> Ohlmann wrote: > I think you're wrong. Card are not designed against an etalon, like Ascendance could be, but against the existing card pool. > > There is no absolute etalon for card design ; rather, cards, like currency or stocks, are evaluated compared to each other. > I know I am right. If you do not regularly go back to the fundamentals of the original game, you are doing something very wrong. Sure, the card pool changes, but cards like Ascendance, Blood Doll, Lost in Crowds, Enhanced Senses, Threats, Undead Strength and Flash are crucial to understanding V:TES card balance. Yeah, you do need to look back and compare. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Jeff wrote: > I know I am right. If you do not regularly go back to the fundamentals of the original game, you are doing something very wrong. > That kind of assurance is a red flag for me. When someone is that sure that he have the good way to balance thing, I have alway seen it followed by horribles failures. > Jeff wrote: > Yeah, you do need to look back and compare. > I do agree. Now, you balance to the existing card pool, not to some so-called standard. Ascendance is particulary bad about that : master are balanced to be significantly stronger than Ascendance. It go both way, since bleed modifier aren't balanced to be as powerful as Conditioning, and lunge master aren't balanced to be as strong as Pentex (look at Blind spot for example)

> Jeff wrote: > I know I am right. If you do not regularly go back to the fundamentals of the original game, you are doing something very wrong. > > Ohlmann wrote: > That kind of assurance is a red flag for me. When someone is that sure that he have the good way to balance thing, I have alway seen it followed by horribles failures. > Design and then play test, of course. But knowing where to begin and making cards that aren't totally broken or wallpaper to begin with is half the battle. > I do agree. Now, you balance to the existing card pool, not to some so-called standard. Ascendance is particulary bad about that : master are balanced to be significantly stronger than Ascendance. > > It go both way, since bleed modifier aren't balanced to be as powerful as Conditioning, and lunge master aren't balanced to be as strong as Pentex (look at Blind spot for example) > "significantly" is a matter of perception. Take a look at Ashur Tablets. It's basically Ascendance with some bonuses and drawbacks. No doubt in my mind that LSJ thought about Ascendance when designing Ashur Tablets. Monastery of Shadows is obviously Elder Library plus Backways with a subtle change. We could go on and on about this or that card and its inspirations from previous sets. But, any card which originated in Dark Sovereigns or Ancient Hearts is suspect. WotC design didn't do a good job then. That makes it even more important to look back at Jyhad/V:TES. Fundamental cards matter. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Jeff wrote: > Take a look at Ashur Tablets. It's basically Ascendance with some bonuses and drawbacks. > Eh ok. "Some" yeah. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> galliard wrote: > is there anybody to whine to? > I wouldn´t bother. I´ve whined about this for the last 10-15 years from time to time. Nothing happens. People in charge seem content. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Jeff wrote: > Take a look at Ashur Tablets. It's basically Ascendance with some bonuses and drawbacks. No doubt in my mind that LSJ thought about Ascendance when designing Ashur Tablets. > That definitely made my day

Actually, if you look at the history of rec.tradingcardgames.jyhad you can see that whining has led to a change in many cards. 5th tradition hospitality is now playable, but not the cheesy powerhouse it used to be. Drawing out the beast now does not stack so Vliam with a ani skill cannot torp a full brujah justicar by playing 10xDrawing before range So yes, don't listen to the naysayers and do whine, something good can eventually come out of it ! I also want to point that lsj made cards from the Dark sov/ancient hearts era playable by removing stupid cost or pointless burnable clause on them. If people can play acquired ventrue asset in their shambling hordes deck, it's in large part to his efforts. " I guess what I'm trying to say is, if I can change, and you can change, everybody can change." -R.Balboa Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> Reyda wrote: > 5th tradition hospitality is now playable, but not the cheesy powerhouse it used to be. Drawing out the beast now does not stack so Vliam with a ani skill cannot torp a full brujah justicar by playing 10xDrawing before range > Sorry, yes, those cards was so overpowered they could not be ignored. I was referring to all the wallpaper. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > Non-existant user wrote: > > > > > Pascal wrote: > > > Plus, I don't see why Ascendance is bad. It's won a tournament recently > > > > > Next challenge: Eyes of the Dead. > > > I am sure there are intermediary step. Like Twisting the Knife. > No card can bring so much shame as Twisting the Knife played on one of your vampires Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Reyda wrote: > So yes, don't listen to the naysayers and do whine, something good can eventually come out of it ! > BAN PROTECT THINE OWN! > Reyda wrote: > I also want to point that lsj made cards from the Dark sov/ancient hearts era playable by removing stupid cost or pointless burnable clause on them. > I think it is worth mentioning that LSJ did not design DS and AH. Those were second-tier WotC designers. LSJ only got involved in design when White Wolf took over production of V:TES starting with Sabbat War. The cards were noticeably more evenly balanced thereafter, though at times a bit on the conservative side (with good cause). When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> galliard wrote: > Is there an authority (like LSJ before) who would i adress nerf/buff suggestions for cards? > > there are tons of unplayable cards now and it would be nice to use them. its better to improve existent cards than make new expansion in my opinion > > just making Ascendance trifle would make it playable. Or make Deal with the Devil cost x pool but burn 2x cards at random from another metuselah hand. > > is there anybody to whine to? > I completely agree that there are a lot of cards that are so suboptimal that they "can't" be played. I also agree that the weakness of some of those cards could be mitigated by "tinkering" with the text. For instance, I think that The Sixth Tradition: Destruction should be playable on any vampire who has committed diablerie since the beginning of the game. I think that Patagia: Flaps Allowing Limited Flight should allow you to burn one blood at any time to give the Nosferatu bearer Flight until the end of the turn. Corruption should be able to target predator's minions as well as preys. Clan hosers should have a burn option, and the list goes on. The practical problem is that you would have to print a new edition of the game since the changes could be so expansive. Also there would have to be one authority who arbitrarily makes those decisions, some of which will be unpopular to some people. One authority (LSJ?) performed widespread changes on the most horrible cards from DS and AH when the game went to White Wolf. That was great; I'm all for doing more, but that makes one of me. And speaking of Ascendance: I made the Angelica Ascendant deck as a challenge to see if I could use multiple Ascendances effectively. Because of two potent vampire specials, I could use Ascedances for intercept or to create up to two pool a round. That's an efficient use of a card slot. I think that Ascendance is not quite good enough for a normal master slot, but is a little too good for a trifle slot. I could say that same thing about a lot of masters, though. I think Ascendance is superior to almost any Powerbase. Should Powerbase: Washington, D.C. be changed to make it playable? Probably, but it seems like a lost cause, doesn't it? @Jeff Kuta: You are of course right that it is necessary to refer to previously designed cards when designing new cards.

> Pascal wrote: > I'm not sure LSJ ever dealt with nerfing cards. He did ban some of them (PTO, Edge Explosion, Memories of Mortality), but I can't recall one he changed. > Wait. Did you just say that you don't recall one card that LSJ changed? Surely, you don't actually, really mean that. c.f. Camarilla Edition, 5th. 2nd, etc etc etc etc etc Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

Shhht! Don't let them know !

Wow you guys are awesome. I am so amazed by the level of this forum. Thank you for EVERY post. Each of them is so constructive and mannered, even those with a dose of negativity. Seriously, i could never expect it. I am new to vekn and i only heard about it a year ago or so (negative stuff, there was some inner feud those times, dont know the details). So i am even more surprised. You guys aspire to be greatest forum community i have ever met Special thanks to Jeff Kuta for insightful posts, especialy regarding DS/AH and what LSJ did. Also, thanks Reyda for support. So Pascal is da baws. Didnt see that happen. I am honored, because he bothered to reply to my every single noob post. Being the most important person in vtes world at the moment, he shows very good attitude, giving atention to every vtes player. A true king. And give me a break with Ascendance. That was just an example to make people get my idea better. Whining about cards was also a joke. I never considered any card overpowered (aside from Perfectionist - hands down the best archetype) I just know, there are thousands of players who still possess tens of thousands useless old cards. We can wait for next expansion for a long time. Meanwhile, it would be sweet if we got new cards from what we already have I wish you all the best. Cuz you are the best.

While I´m not terribly optimistic about those in charge get less conservative and start changing crappy cards, it would be a nice way to boost sales of the rumoured print-on-demand-cards. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> galliard wrote: > I am new to vekn and i only heard about it a year ago or so > SNIP > I wish you all the best. Cuz you are the best. > Hey, you've been around for a year so that makes you part of the community thus making you one of the best! Welcome aboard sailor! Finnish Politics!

Sidenote: fiximg eyes of the dead. Make it only have inf version that grants +9 intercept against diablery, usable by a tapped vampire ( or mummy, per thier card text...) only if a vampire of cap less than ten is trying to eat your vamp. It becomes the end all be all of corner case, nearly useless but requires loads of stealth ( unrealistic amounts, incidently) or block denial. Its so bad, it could grant 987 intercept and be just as unplayable. So i think just ignoring it is as easy as not playing it. And those are as good as errata for it, i beleive. Are there any just barely bad non vampire cards ppl have ideas on though? Vamps ive made adv versions of to compensate them, and i may post them someday, but library cards intrigue me if ppl have ideas.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > Its so bad, it could grant 987 intercept and be just as unplayable. > I agree that Eyes of the Dead might be a lost cause, unless you do some very ugly redesign, like replacing "Only usable when a reacting vampire you control attempts to block a vampire who is attempting to diablerize one of your vampires." with "Only usable during a action against you (or a card you control)." And that is probably stupid för nec anyway. But there are other cards, that might become playable with just removal or adding a single word or cost. Furthermore, I consider that Carthage must be destroyed ... no, I mean Ashur Tablets should only affect minion cards. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

Based on what the Eyes of the Dead ritual did in the original roleplaying game, I would rewrite it like this: Eyes of the Dead Combat / Reaction Only useable if you control a wraith ally or retainer. The opposing minion's controller plays with an open hand for the remainder of combat. Only one Eyes of the Dead may be played per combat. +2 intercept. Another idea might be this: Eyes of the Dead Reaction Only useable during an action to commit diablerie or enter combat with an ally. +1 intercept. This reacting vampire attempts to block the current action, ignoring the normal prey, predator or target restrictions for blocking actions. Useable by an tapped vampire to untap and attempt to block. As above, except with +2 intercept.

Ye, sure let's make a card at necromancy that's 2nd Trad and Eagle's Sight rolled into one and then make it cost no blood. Good idea.

> Izaak wrote: > Ye, sure let's make a card at necromancy that's 2nd Trad and Eagle's Sight rolled into one and then make it cost no blood. > > Good idea. > And let's not read the card too The first one is the combination of two auspex effect. It borrow from neither 2nd trad not Eagle sight. The second one have the text : > Only useable during an action to commit diablerie or enter combat with an ally. > Which mean the card is not significantly better than the original Eye of the dead.

Thanks for coming to my defense, Old Man! I researched what the power of Eyes of the Dead did in the original version of the RPG. It allowed the necromancer to use the "Deadsight" of nearby wraiths (aka ghosts). Deadsight is kind of like Aura Reading from the Auspex discipline, but less detailed and more storytelling oriented. In my first suggestion, I made it like a good Auspex card, but, like in the RPG, there has to be a wraith nearby. It suggests a Masquer/Potence wall deck archetype. I think Necromancy should have been more reactive since so many Necromancy powers in the RPG involved divination. In my second suggestion, I took the fact that Deadsight indicates which beings are close to death. In VTES, the beings that are closest to death are vampires about to get diablerized and allies somebody is prepared to rush. I think that was the concept of the actual card. My version isn't great, but at least there's a lot more flexibility, and it allows ally-heavy Giovanni decks an efficient means to protect key allies.

> And let's not read the card too > Whoops

> AaronC wrote: > Thanks for coming to my defense, Old Man! > > I researched what the power of Eyes of the Dead did in the original version of the RPG. It allowed the necromancer to use the "Deadsight" of nearby wraiths (aka ghosts). Deadsight is kind of like Aura Reading from the Auspex discipline, but less detailed and more storytelling oriented. > > In my first suggestion, I made it like a good Auspex card, but, like in the RPG, there has to be a wraith nearby. It suggests a Masquer/Potence wall deck archetype. I think Necromancy should have been more reactive since so many Necromancy powers in the RPG involved divination. > > In my second suggestion, I took the fact that Deadsight indicates which beings are close to death. In VTES, the beings that are closest to death are vampires about to get diablerized and allies somebody is prepared to rush. I think that was the concept of the actual card. My version isn't great, but at least there's a lot more flexibility, and it allows ally-heavy Giovanni decks an efficient means to protect key allies. > "Close to death" is also heavy linked with hunting (or gaining blood from hunting ground). Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Lech wrote: > "Close to death" is also heavy linked with hunting (or gaining blood from hunting ground). > You're right, but the theme is used a lot in quietus cards. There is also Follow the blood for Black Hand. And two, maybe more, event and/or master that prevent every hunt. If Eye of the dead became as powerful as Follow the blood, maybe it would be a tenfold improvement in power level, but people would still not use it.

> Lech wrote: > "Close to death" is also heavy linked with hunting (or gaining blood from hunting ground). > When a vampire runs out of blood in the RPG, he falls into torpor but he doesn't meet the Final Death. The information I read said that wraiths actually saw vampires with their Deadsight as avoiding the decay and taint of death, although the things around them seemed more decayed by comparison. The effect of preventing diablerie is just an attempt to translate the ability in some kinds of useful(?) VTES game mechanic terms.

> Wiki wrote: > Wraiths and Mummies see death in everything. They do not see things in the physical world as they appear, but as they someday will be. A person about to die might appear cadaverous, with hollow eyes and jaundiced skin; a car destined to crash will appear dented in advance. Much of the world seems decayed or near collapse. Billboards are tattered, roads are potholed, paint is peeling, metal is rusting, buildings are crumbling. This can be used to find weak spots and to measure the Health level of a person. > All Wraiths are touched by Oblivion and are able to see the creeping influence and the inevitable death of everything. Because of this, deathsight is an ability that every wraith possesses. > > The counterpart of deathsight is Lifesight. > > Kuei-jin attuned with Yin can use Deathsight, and those attuned with Yang can use Lifesight. > Which give you informations about death of nearby persons, not only vampires. If you know that someone will be drained to death, you can take precautions, right? For example following the person. Or letting other know. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

Isn't draining mortals empty more or less breach of masquerade? So more practical kindred don't go on a glut leaving trail of bodies behind but only drink so much that the doner is left alive. And can be later on reused. Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > Isn't draining mortals empty more or less breach of masquerade? > > So more practical kindred don't go on a glut leaving trail of bodies behind but only drink so much that the doner is left alive. And can be later on reused. > Law abiding kindred do that. Also, it's mainly a camarilla thingy. It's more or less against the Sabbat ideology to do that, since you show you fear your prey. For independant, it depend on the clan. Giovanni won't give a flying fuck about that, and actually are likely to have problems if they let their prey alive because of their clan weakness. Follower of set and assamite are supposed to not do that, but aren't all that picky on that. Gangrel will only do that if it's pratical to do so. And even for camarilla or masquerade-sensitive vampire, it's not an important rule. Mainly because, with the exception of assamite, if you kill the guy but make it look like a natural death, nobody will care. And if you kill it messily and let it on the street, the chance somebody vampire-award make the connection is pretty slim. Lastly, even if you feed preperly, the people you just fed upon is a lot nearer to death, he will take at least one week to recover from the blood loss. So he is a lot nearer to death.

> Lönkka wrote: > Isn't draining mortals empty more or less breach of masquerade? > > So more practical kindred don't go on a glut leaving trail of bodies behind but only drink so much that the doner is left alive. And can be later on reused. > It is, but, most kindred don't care that much about obeying every tenet. Camarilla vamps just do care about covering it up, others less so. But nearly every vampire kills during hunt from time to time. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> AaronC wrote: > Based on what the Eyes of the Dead ritual did in the original roleplaying game, I would rewrite it like this: > > Eyes of the Dead > Combat / Reaction > Only useable if you control a wraith ally or retainer. > The opposing minion's controller plays with an open hand for the remainder of combat. Only one Eyes of the Dead may be played per combat. > +2 intercept. > > Another idea might be this: > Eyes of the Dead > Reaction > Only useable during an action to commit diablerie or enter combat with an ally. > +1 intercept. This reacting vampire attempts to block the current action, ignoring the normal prey, predator or target restrictions for blocking actions. Useable by an tapped vampire to untap and attempt to block. > As above, except with +2 intercept. > I thought we were talking about errata here, not making a totally new card. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

Proposed card text for eyes of the dead Only usable during a D action against a vampire in torpor For the duration of this action, any ready vampire (minion maybe?) may attempt to block with +1 intercept ignoring the usual predator/prey relationship restriction. As above, but with +2 intercept. note that it now gives a temporary "eagle sight" to any potential blocker, and that it also trumps graverobbing or josette's special. Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

In playability this reminds me Abandoning The Flesh for Dementation. I have tried having 1 or 2 in S&B deck for quite a while, but I played it only once ever, due to relying someone wanting do diablerize you (and being reaction/combatmeans, that you can't trigger it by yourself). Same cons apply here, making it just as much unplayable. Abandoning the Flesh [Reaction] Reaction [Combat] Combat [Dementation] Dementation Only usable by a vampire being burned. Usable by a vampire in torpor. [dem] Remove this vampire from the game instead (diablerie, if any, is still successful), and put this card into play. You may not play this card if you already have an Abandoning the Flesh in play. You may tap this card when a vampire with Dementation [dem] is bleeding to give that vampire +1 bleed for the current action. Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.

Abandoning the Flesh is fun in a fortitude malkavian deck, where you burn your vampire with Force of Will.

> Pascal wrote: > Abandoning the Flesh is fun in a fortitude malkavian deck, where you burn your vampire with Force of Will. > And how are you going to do that, when the card is a reaction/combat card, and not an action modifier? pckvtes.wordpress.com

ah, that's probabbly why that deck was never built I should really discard these draft files

> Reyda wrote: > note that it now gives a temporary "eagle sight" to any potential blocker, and that it also trumps graverobbing or josette's special. > Why bother ? The card would jump from "unplayable, ever" to "maybe playable in some fun decks in specific situation"

> Reyda wrote: > Only usable during a D action against a vampire in torpor > I guess it´s this bit that makes the card unplayable. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > > > Reyda wrote: > > Only usable during a D action against a vampire in torpor > > > I guess it´s this bit that makes the card unplayable. > Because diablerie, rescuing, Graverobbing and others don't happen in the game? At all? I see vampires rescued left and right very often. Blocking the rescue can be very handy. Blocking a Graverobbing is very good. pckvtes.wordpress.com

> Amenophobis wrote: > Because diablerie, rescuing, Graverobbing and others don't happen in the game? At all? I see vampires rescued left and right very often. Blocking the rescue can be very handy. Blocking a Graverobbing is very good. > Are you seriously thinking you want to devote a card slot against something so specific ? You can block a graverobbing without this card, the action is not even at stealth. Ditto for diablerie. 99% of the time, one more On The Qui Vive (or even better : Eye of Argus, for the NEC/AUS clan) will be better, because it will work when nobody try to burn/steal your vampire, and even if someone do try a graverobbing, the card only help if the other have stealth. A deck where there is high risk of diablerie / graverobbing is certainly possible, since they are card to create mandatory diablerie. But that would be a small addition to a trick deck.

Eyes of The dead... probably the worst card ever...

> Reyda wrote: > Proposed card text for eyes of the dead > > Only usable during a D action against a vampire in torpor > > For the duration of this action, any ready vampire (minion maybe?) may attempt to block with +1 intercept ignoring the usual predator/prey relationship restriction. > As above, but with +2 intercept. > > note that it now gives a temporary "eagle sight" to any potential blocker, and that it also trumps graverobbing or josette's special. > Question: is your intention that tapped vampires can block without e.g. WwEF when this card is played? Let me expand: Only usable during a action targetting a vampire in torpor. Usable by a tapped vampire. For the duration of this action, any vampire may attempt to block with +2 intercept as if untapped, even if intercept is not yet needed, ignoring the normal prey, predator or target restrictions for blocking actions. This vampire burns 1 blood to cause the action to fail. It's also a defense against Nephandi, Amam and Gregory Winter! pckvtes.wordpress.com

> Amenophobis wrote: > > > Ashur wrote: > > > > > Reyda wrote: > > > Only usable during a D action against a vampire in torpor > > > > > I guess it´s this bit that makes the card unplayable. > > > Because diablerie, rescuing, Graverobbing and others don't happen in the game? At all? I see vampires rescued left and right very often. Blocking the rescue can be very handy. Blocking a Graverobbing is very good. > I think you misunderstood ashur, who is agreeing that the card is weak if it concerns only diablerie. but yes, the point was : if you can disrupt a graverobbing or cross table rescue, the card definitely has its uses !! It can trump Baltimore purge decks, and also has uses in a bruise and bleed deck because "no, you don't rescue" I agree it would not be overpowered but would have its uses nonetheless > Question: is your intention that tapped vampires can block without e.g. WwEF when this card is played? > Not the intent. Only remove restriction about who blocks Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> Reyda wrote: > and also has uses in a bruise and bleed deck because "no, you don't rescue" > Which is why it wouldn't happen, by the way. I am not sure it would be powerful, but it would allow complete player shutdown worst than Pentex.

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > Reyda wrote: > > and also has uses in a bruise and bleed deck because "no, you don't rescue" > > > Which is why it wouldn't happen, by the way. I am not sure it would be powerful, but it would allow complete player shutdown worst than Pentex. > OH NOES THE CARD IS SUDDENLY OVERBROKEN OHMAGAD §!!§1 mmm, you know that rescuing is not subject to NRA ? and the fact that the action is blocked does not prevent another vampire from trying ? Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> Reyda wrote: > OH NOES THE CARD IS SUDDENLY OVERBROKEN OHMAGAD §!!§1 > > mmm, you know that rescuing is not subject to NRA ? > and the fact that the action is blocked does not prevent another vampire from trying ? > Yes, and what is your point ?

> Pascal wrote: > I'm not sure LSJ ever dealt with nerfing cards. He did ban some of them (PTO, Edge Explosion, Memories of Mortality), but I can't recall one he changed. > Majesty?

You're ruining it !

Reyda wrote: > > Well my point is maybe you should put some glass shards into your anus and ram really hard with baseball bat. > WTF... Why this???? Lets keep any conversation in a civilized tone please... Even if the card is a piece of cr*p the discussion does not have to be like that...

Oh, a conversation ? You mean the type of exchange i would gladly have instead of any of ohlmann's posts ? Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

Don't let the other player affect your judgment, or your manners... Keep calm and oust him...

> wesile wrote: > Don't let the other player affect your judgment, or your manners... > > Keep calm and oust him... > Well, it's more or less the same thing as a godwin point. He don't know what to say, and can't keep silent, so he say random insult. The first post was already kind of surrealist, with two sentence both disconnected from the cited post.

Actually, it's Uranus point. I should start my post by "i'm sorry, but..." But the fact is : I don't even feel sorry. When we are discussing, even trivial things, you are always frickin' there, ALL OVER THE PLACE. I'm unsure if there is not a single topic where you don't post. And it's always to say negative things. Every time. All the time. I suspect you are not a human being but a malevolent A.I. that haunts this part of the internet. Explain me how my post was disconnected. The suspense is killing me... Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> Amenophobis wrote: > > > Ashur wrote: > > > > > Reyda wrote: > > > Only usable during a D action against a vampire in torpor > > > > > I guess it´s this bit that makes the card unplayable. > > > Because diablerie, rescuing, Graverobbing and others don't happen in the game? At all? I see vampires rescued left and right very often. Blocking the rescue can be very handy. Blocking a Graverobbing is very good. > It´s too cornercase in my opinion. I don´t know how many cards of this type you include in your decks, unless you play some kind of Regeneration-bloat engine. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > > > Amenophobis wrote: > > > > > Ashur wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reyda wrote: > > > > Only usable during a D action against a vampire in torpor > > > > > > > I guess it´s this bit that makes the card unplayable. > > > > > > > > Because diablerie, rescuing, Graverobbing and others don't happen in the game? At all? I see vampires rescued left and right very often. Blocking the rescue can be very handy. Blocking a Graverobbing is very good. > > > It´s too cornercase in my opinion. I don´t know how many cards of this type you include in your decks, unless you play some kind of Regeneration-bloat engine. > Of course it is corner case. Is movement of the slow body cornercase ? Is rapid healing cornercase ? Sure they are. But at least they are playable. You see them from time to time, they make a nice trick because you don't expect them. And they also open new deck ideas. Some of them are fairly succesful, just like the force of will/conditioning/Movement of the slow body deck is. Is the cornercase state of a card a reason for us not tinkering it ? I beg to disagree. And the last designer disagrees to. Cauldron of blood has been errated. Gangrel Revel has been errated. When was the last time anyone played one of those cards ? If it opens new ways for making decks, i'm all for it. Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

I agree with you, Reyda. This thread has become a discussion of "unplayable" cards, Eyes of the Dead in particular, and how to make such cards playable. A "cornercase" card is PLAYABLE! The very idea of this thread (and related ones) is to turn "unplayable" cards into "cornercase" cards! It is wrong to say that discussion of errata or new cards must be guided by the principle that any new card or errata must produce a versatile or powerful card. If you want to preemptively shut down all ideas about card changes or card designs, at least try to find a reason that is appropriate to the forum at hand. If a change to Eyes of the Dead makes it playable in any deck, that's a success!

> AaronC wrote: > I agree with you, Reyda. This thread has become a discussion of "unplayable" cards, Eyes of the Dead in particular, and how to make such cards playable. > that was my point from start, thanks Aaron make Illegal Search and Seizure work vs any weapon and we have nice niche counter against celgun decks. would it make ISaS overpowered? i dont think so. still Canine Horde (which is considered weak and situational card) would be better. luckily, most of these noob cards were not reprinted in later editions. but they still exist in vast numbers.

> AaronC wrote: > I agree with you, Reyda. This thread has become a discussion of "unplayable" cards, Eyes of the Dead in particular, and how to make such cards playable. > > A "cornercase" card is PLAYABLE! The very idea of this thread (and related ones) is to turn "unplayable" cards into "cornercase" cards! > Still, while those in charge are at it, they might consider make the cards at least _considerble_ for tournament play. I don´t see the point with turning ugly wallpaper to beautiful wallpaper. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> AaronC wrote: > This thread has become a discussion of "unplayable" cards, Eyes of the Dead in particular, and how to make such cards playable. > Then again, the thread IS called "Regarding unplayable or overpowered cards"... Finnish Politics!

> Reyda wrote: > Actually, it's Uranus point. > > I should start my post by "i'm sorry, but..." > But the fact is : I don't even feel sorry. > When we are discussing, even trivial things, you are always frickin' there, ALL OVER THE PLACE. I'm unsure if there is not a single topic where you don't post. And it's always to say negative things. Every time. All the time. I suspect you are not a human being but a malevolent A.I. that haunts this part of the internet. > > Explain me how my post was disconnected. The suspense is killing me... > Im on the verge of giggling like a schoolgirl. Ohlmann is typically who i expext to comment on my carx ideas with the most useful criticism, but a malevolent ai? That would be incredibly.... interestng. Is he a creation of the virtual adepts, or is this a more mundane thing? Sorry, i respect you both but found this implication hilarious. Hope to see you both at the NAC if you can make it. Just to watch a table with you both...