Hear the rumor about the WoD Living Card Game?

It has been floating around /tg/ and BBG for the last week or so. Here is a /tg/ topic on it right now boards.4chan.org/tg/res/23540862 Here is the OP for those who can't goto 4chan right now. > > Now that we know there is going to be a World of Darkness Living Card Game from FFG lets speculate about what they are doing with it. > What we know: > The game heavily influenced by V:TES. > Core set will focus on Vampire, Hunter, Mage, and Werewolf. > Politics will make a return but players will gain titles in place of characters having them. > Combat is being fully rewritten. > The Core set will be designed for 2-4 players with a single box, rules are written for unlimited players. > V:TES's Predator/Prey system for multiplayer will make a return. > > Rumors: > Each faction is going to have 4 "disciplines" for a total of 16 in the Core set. > The Blood system from V:TES is returning and be reflavored as fighting over the power in a city. Bleeding will become Draining, Hunting will be Gathering, etc. > > I am guessing we will see official news at FFG's World Tournament. > Later in the topic people are saying this: > > Well I called FFG claiming to be a blogger looking for a quote about rumors of a WoD LCG, I talked to one of their PR people and he told me to wait till their press release later this week and asked for my email so that he can email me info once it is released, than told me all he can officaly say is "I can no confirm or deny and current or future project involving World of Darkness or anything dealings with CCP or White Wolf for licensing of their products". So I feel that was a huge yes. > Thought I'd check here to see if anyone has heard anything or has something to add to the info floating around.

At least at NC level there hasn't been any information floating around about this. Perhaps the ICs know more? Or some NC that has been privy to secret information... Finnish Politics!

LOLL!!! Well, if true, there's another community split. I wonder how many we can survive. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

Any More news you can share ? Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> Reyda wrote: > Any More news you can share ? > So far all I have seen are a few unconfirmed reports of play tests happening at the FFG Event Center. Outside of that there is just a bunch of speculation floating around. I honestly think if any real news we will have to wait till FFG's Worlds Tournament later this year as they tend to like to show off new stuff there.

Is this game set in oWoD or nWoD? Overkill is highly underrated. You know, like in computor games and such.

With the tepid pulse of the game at present, I'll be happy to have a new game to get some new embraces. I will definitely try any new game that comes along, and can still play regular VTES with fan expansions. I'm totally fine with that. I'm curious about some of the choices though. If it's four distinct factions, won't that limit deckbuilding? I presume that vampires and hunters won't have any overlap in disciplines, so that leaves less room for mixing and matching. I also presume you can't mix them in a deck at all, which is a damn shame. I like the idea in concept, but I'm a bit wary of execution. Also, with only four disciplines, how much variety can you have? Assuming voting is out, won't the disciplines for each faction break down along these lines: - Stealth - Bleed - Intercept - Combat Again, not a lot of variety. Leaves me a bit worried. So if it were to come down to the four factions, would the strength of their disciplines be something like this (in descending order): Vampires: Stealth, Bleed, Combat, Intercept Werewolves: Combat, Intercept, Bleed, Stealth (Not sure how sneaky they are, honestly) Hunters: Intercept, Combat, Stealth, Bleed Mages: Bleed?, Stealth?, Combat, Intercept (I really don't know) I don't have a lot of knowledge with the oWoD, but I'm interested in speculations. Yes, I know, this is only speculation. Baron of Berkeley

Is it only me...A weird impression comes to mind... A vampire version of netrunner...? I am currently sick with the flu... do not quote me as a source. Deliriumm is strong within me at the moment.B-) VTES is not for the faint of heart...especially when you don't have a enough blood. Prince Of Geneva

Vaguely interesting, but not as much so as vtes. The entirety of either wod setting is hard as a cardgame with all factions, but nwod is easier, if less interestimg. I may pick it up and try to recruit vtes players with it, but im skeptical.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > Vaguely interesting, but not as much so as vtes. The entirety of either wod setting is hard as a cardgame with all factions, but nwod is easier, if less interestimg. > I may pick it up and try to recruit vtes players with it, but im skeptical. > Pretty much this. A giant crossover game in the owod is all kind of ridicule. I can't wait to see weredinosaur teaming up with follower of set to oust a menacing sidhe. A giant crossover game in the nwod just seem bland. And there is certainly a lot of ridiculous situation in it too. Quite frankly, the few information this thread show make me believe this will end up as an inferior version of Nightfall.

Another discussion about the same subject: boardgamegeek.com/thread/942306/it-seems-we-are-getting-real-ffg-lcg-vtes Overkill is highly underrated. You know, like in computor games and such.

First one seems to have dissapeared: "404 Not Found" EDIT: Ah, the BGG thread has links to archives... Finnish Politics!

If they want to make a game that feels like VTES, they need 5 factions to start with, not 4.

More importantly (and an obvious question that we are all probably asking ourselves right now)... Could this be - alas - the proverbial nail in the coffin of VTES' resurrection chances, be it via print on demand or any other means? Emiliano "Sans Terre" - Wandering Player - Prince of Brussels

> emime wrote: > More importantly (and an obvious question that we are all probably asking ourselves right now)... > > Could this be - alas - the proverbial nail in the coffin of VTES' resurrection chances, be it via print on demand or any other means? > Odds are FFG sees just V:TES as too small a market for them. They also CCP might want them to use all of WoD to line up with their upcoming MMO. From what I have seen the game seems to be V:TES with rule updates to modern gaming standards.

> emime wrote: > More importantly (and an obvious question that we are all probably asking ourselves right now)... > > Could this be - alas - the proverbial nail in the coffin of VTES' resurrection chances, be it via print on demand or any other means? > Sure. At least it might what is stalling things. Not much seem to be happening. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> LordNat wrote: > From what I have seen the game seems to be V:TES with rule updates to modern gaming standards. > What make you think that by the way ? The information on this thread are for a game with only a passing ressemblance to VtES, which may or may not be good, but which seem mainly different.

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > LordNat wrote: > > From what I have seen the game seems to be V:TES with rule updates to modern gaming standards. > > > What make you think that by the way ? The information on this thread are for a game with only a passing ressemblance to VtES, which may or may not be good, but which seem mainly different. > yes, but once a licence is sold... Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > LordNat wrote: > > From what I have seen the game seems to be V:TES with rule updates to modern gaming standards. > > > What make you think that by the way ? The information on this thread are for a game with only a passing ressemblance to VtES, which may or may not be good, but which seem mainly different. > People worried about the same stuff when Android: Netrunner was announced and we see what happened there. The heart of the game is still the same just the body got an upgrade with cleaner rules and modern updates. The game at it's core will still be V:TES just might not look like it at first glance.

Honestly I'd be OK with a game I can actually play compared to a game I wish I could.

> LordNat wrote: > People worried about the same stuff when Android: Netrunner was announced and we see what happened there. The heart of the game is still the same just the body got an upgrade with cleaner rules and modern updates. The game at it's core will still be V:TES just might not look like it at first glance. > In short, nobody know if it really have something in common, and you believe so because Netrunner android exist.

FFG has a history of licensing neglected games and doing awesome things with them. Netrunner is extremely relevant, but so is the Call of Cthulhu CCG, Arkham Horror, Fury of Dracula, BattleLore, and the Dark Heresy RPG - all of which were developed / published originally by other companies, and all of which turned out to great in FFG's hands.

> brm130 wrote: > FFG has a history of licensing neglected games and doing awesome things with them. Netrunner is extremely relevant > > brm130 wrote: > all of which turned out to great in FFG's hands. > Full disclaimer : I believe completely that Netrunner android have good rules changes, but extremely shitty card and general feeling. That being said, we already know this is not a game on vampire, that it focus on a single city instead of the whole world, that the political system is changed completely, and ditto for the combat system. At this point, the similarity between VtES and this project seem to be the same as between magic and WoW TCG. Maybe, beside my reserve, the game will be good, but I want to stress out that the current information are mainly that it's a different game completely.

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > LordNat wrote: > > From what I have seen the game seems to be V:TES with rule updates to modern gaming standards. > > > What make you think that by the way ? > I agree, that is a very relevant question. LordNat, what are your sources? "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

[quote="Ohlmann" post=45964 That being said, we already know this is not a game on vampire, that it focus on a single city instead of the whole world, that the political system is changed completely, and ditto for the combat system. At this point, the similarity between VtES and this project seem to be the same as between magic and WoW TCG. Maybe, beside my reserve, the game will be good, but I want to stress out that the current information are mainly that it's a different game completely.[/quote] Both of those are very similar. If the rumored wod game is also Library/Crypt (even with a "hero" card, doesn't matters much), more than 2 players, 30 (or similar) pool that is used to influence minions and auto-replace cards ... it can be very good game. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Ashur wrote: > > > Ohlmann wrote: > > > > > LordNat wrote: > > > From what I have seen the game seems to be V:TES with rule updates to modern gaming standards. > > > > > > > > What make you think that by the way ? > > > I agree, that is a very relevant question. LordNat, what are your sources? > The continuing topics on /tg/ about it. 4chan has a strong history of being a place where games are leaked as it is completely anonymous so I am following the reports coming out of there.

If this is true I for one am very happy about it. Will be nice to actually be able to play this game. Similar to Netrunner there will be people feeling like "their game" is going to be ruined. However Netrunner is hugely popular and very successful and a great game.

Please feel free to ignore this post. <Conspiracy Theory> I'm feeling very conspiracy-theorist today, so here goes: -I see (most) people here talking about this "project" like a good thing with 7 or less total posts on the forum. This might be a (very smart) way of FFG to see the pulse in the biggest community of VtES in the planet, and see if an idea like this could grow into success. Yes, I might be way out of reality. Again, please feel free to ignore this and don't feel offended. If anything else, I'm complimenting you. <\Conspiracy Theory> Regardless, if FFG (or any one else) picks up VtES (or something remotely similar), please learn from the nWoD jump to nWoD. Or at least talk to the VEKN IC and NCs, before doing something stupid. Clearly we are driven and passionate about the game enough to travel, do tournaments with reasonably big numbers and organize the game locally. On our own.

Well, I know nothing about this. But I have grown my ears a couple of inches and try to find out something. That being said, judging from the information we have this seems to be a 2 player(?) nWoD game with more simplistic rules than our oWoD 5 player game. The two might co-exist or the potential FFG product could even be an entry gateway. But I am just speculating as anyone else.

> Toqtamish wrote: > However Android Netrunner is [...] a great game. > Well, depend on the person. If they paid a bit more attention to have an actual cyberpunk feel and had designed better the card, I would have played more than once. Also, for the current game, that the game is great or not have no relation with it 'replacing' vtes. I know a lot of Eurogame that I feel superior to VtES, but I still play VtES. > Brum wrote: > This might be a (very smart) way of FFG to see the pulse in the biggest community of VtES in the planet, and see if an idea like this could grow into success. > Well, a lot of the people interested in this thread are newcomer, or at least people not interested in general VtES discussion. So, at the very least, they can conclude there is interest > Brum wrote: > Regardless, if FFG (or any one else) picks up VtES (or something remotely similar), please learn from the WoD jump to nWoD. > Or at least talk to the VEKN IC and NCs, before doing something stupid. > Clearly we are driven and passionate about the game enough to travel, do tournaments with reasonably big numbers and organize the game locally. > On our own. > The example of Netrunner and the current information make me believe that people should not expect it to replace VtES, especially not overnight. The information is "a new game inspired somewhat by VtES", not "the new VtES". One of the only sure thing is that cards will be incompatible, and it seem likely that the lore feeling will be extremely bad on the new game.

> johannes wrote: > Well, I know nothing about this. But I have grown my ears a couple of inches and try to find out something. > > That being said, judging from the information we have this seems to be a 2 player(?) nWoD game with more simplistic rules than our oWoD 5 player game. The two might co-exist or the potential FFG product could even be an entry gateway. But I am just speculating as anyone else. > The topic on /tg/ last night talked about how last playtest they had people play in groups of 4. I think the game is going to be designed for 3-4 players and then have a 2nt set of rules for 2 player (AGoT does this).

> Ohlmann wrote: > > The example of Netrunner and the current information make me believe that people should not expect it to replace VtES, especially not overnight. The information is "a new game inspired somewhat by VtES", not "the new VtES". One of the only sure thing is that cards will be incompatible, and it seem likely that the lore feeling will be extremely bad on the new game. > Lore feeling may be ok, depends how executed. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Lech wrote: > Lore feeling may be ok, depends how executed. > My position is that full crossover - with four games taken as main actor - have never been successful, and in fact have spawned some of the worst book in the WoD. For example, Chaos Factor is both comical and sad, and I would put it as the third worst WoD book I have read. This apply a lot less to have a main universe (for example, vampire), and hint of other surnatural which are pretty minor. For example, mage being present and having spawned the Tremere is fine ; having the Technocracy, the Pentex and the Giovanni both governing the world finance is problematic. Of course, you can believe that some books have done a good job at this. I disagree, but it's very subjective, it's not like there can be a definitive truth for that.

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > Lech wrote: > > Lore feeling may be ok, depends how executed. > > > My position is that full crossover - with four games taken as main actor - have never been successful, and in fact have spawned some of the worst book in the WoD. For example, Chaos Factor is both comical and sad, and I would put it as the third worst WoD book I have read. > > This apply a lot less to have a main universe (for example, vampire), and hint of other surnatural which are pretty minor. For example, mage being present and having spawned the Tremere is fine ; having the Technocracy, the Pentex and the Giovanni both governing the world finance is problematic. > > Of course, you can believe that some books have done a good job at this. I disagree, but it's very subjective, it's not like there can be a definitive truth for that. > Well, chaos factor isn't any good, true. But don't dismiss crossover just because someone wrote crap book about it. IMO, limiting area to just one city is WAY better than current vtes (where prince of glasgow block canite hunting in sydney, wtf?). Vtes also have many crossovers already - hunters, werewolf decks, wraiths. Combat between werewolves and vampires happens quite often. It CAN be done right. It may be done wrong, time will tell. I'm personally happy every time new wod game (any game, not just tcg) see the light of day. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

I´m sad to say this, but I don´t think WoD works as a crossover world at all. Each game is very, very good on it´s own, but as soon as you start mixing things up it get´s ugly. I don´t know if this was fixed in nWoD (which the this new game is based on? Which would be weird, as oWoD is back in 20th Anniversary Edition and that MMORPG which don´t ever seem to fly) Nope, I don´t think vamps, garou, mages, wraiths and changelings should be mixed. If I was ever to roleplay VTM again, it would be with other supernaturals as obscure antagonists (kind of as described in the first VTM rulebook). "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Lech wrote: > Well, chaos factor isn't any good, true. But don't dismiss crossover just because someone wrote crap book about it. > But each and every crossover book was crappy - admitelly less than Chaos Factor but still extremely subpar. My point is not "one crappy book have been done", but "every attempt until now was crappy" It include non-WW attempt in my experience by the way. I have not seen ingenious fans coming up with good way to make all games work together. > Lech wrote: > Vtes also have many crossovers already - hunters, werewolf decks, wraiths. Combat between werewolves and vampires happens quite often. > > This apply a lot less to have a main universe (for example, vampire), and hint of other surnatural which are pretty minor. For example, mage being present and having spawned the Tremere is fine > Kind of already addressed points. When you have werewolf as minor actor, it work a lot better than when you try to cram together the Glasswalker, technocracy, Giovanni, and Ventrue in the same financial place. > Ashur wrote: > Nope, I don´t think vamps, garou, mages, wraiths and changelings should be mixed. If I was ever to roleplay VTM again, it would be with other supernaturals as obscure antagonists (kind of as described in the first VTM rulebook). > That's what I believe should be done. It's more or less what is done in VtES ; the werewolf society at large is not really seen, the tribes are not seen (except the distinction corruped garou | regular garou), the fomori aren't present either, etc etc.

My understanding is that nWoD was created as a whole, with the power levels and themes to be more in-line with one another and more cross-over friendly. There's no Pentex per se, but there's no overarching metaplot that affects what happens at your table. (Ie: Whole vampire clans don't disappear.) nHunter has a lot of overlap, and is about Hunters Hunted style "normal" hunters facing the rest of the nWoD. WtF has no huge overarching fight against the Wyrm, the VtR vampires are less pervasive in the world of mortals. They did away with a lot of things that made it harder to rationalize / understand crossover.

The nwod: i ran games of changeling and requiem, i bought all the cores until geist, which i srill havent bothered with, and i have all the ctl line and plan to someday pick up all of promethean. Th core three games SUCK. They are terrible compared to the originals. Vampires junk, mage backwards, and werewolf cool because ur not fuzzy powerrangers, but lame because theres small point, other than fighting the unwinnable war with the pure, or smashimg spiders and rats. Now the sidegames are freaking golden. Changeling is bar none the best ww game not called vampire the masquerade. Hunter is great, bezt feel possible for such a thng, and promethean is amazing, and would be even betterif disquiet were different by a hair. Dice zytem is hot, at times better than owod system. The supernatural trait system reaks of crossover intent, and made powers a tad easier in crossovers, but little else. A game like is described could work with nwod, at least more than anything else. But to be logical would imbalance it. I fail to see a point in it, in the long run. And like i said, i have invezted in nearly all the cores, and love ctl; i have the ctl logo tattooed on my knee even. But im not digging the idea of this potential game. Maybe some game using all the nwod stuff, but not like this. The sidegames were leaps better than the cores, so each player having a faction is dumb to me. Maybe splitting stuff by faxtion or some sort of numbered system for"crypt" i could like, if cards were right, suck as powers and such, along with durability, but im remaining not that optimistic. Id play a ctl game with crossover stuff in it, but im not excited on this. I just want MY game back in print.

A very simple thought for you: VTES should be alarmed if any LCG did exist, because it probably would represent a very real possibility of killing VTES stone dead. Even if it wasn't perceived as a direct 'replacement' by the players, any developer or publisher would be almost forced to pursue cease & desist against any third party development of VTES if nothing else but to protect the IP, whether it was intended by VEKN or not. It'd almost certainly ensure you never saw the game resurface officially ever again. Here we go again.... Dave Knowles (Advanced) Sabbat Bishop of Manchester

> Shockwave wrote: > A very simple thought for you: > > VTES should be alarmed if any LCG did exist, because it probably would represent a very real possibility of killing VTES stone dead. Even if it wasn't perceived as a direct 'replacement' by the players, any developer or publisher would be almost forced to pursue cease & desist against any third party development of VTES if nothing else but to protect the IP, whether it was intended by VEKN or not. > > It'd almost certainly ensure you never saw the game resurface officially ever again. > When has a dead CCG ever officially resurfaced? I will agree their might be issues with fan expansions of V:TES but we have kind of seen how that has been going as of late. V:TES is dead at this point anyway. It might scoot along for awhile like Rage did but even they had a few fan sets out by now. Nothing stop anyone for playing with the cards they have but at this point it is better to just hope for something new with the same core ideas of V:TES to come along to improve on it and draw in a new chunk of players. V:TES as it is will likely never draw in new people and that just means the heat death of the game.

> LordNat wrote: > When has a dead CCG ever officially resurfaced? I will agree their might be issues with fan expansions of V:TES but we have kind of seen how that has been going as of late. > Amusingly, the best example I know is VtES, which was all but dead between Sabbat and Sabbat War. It was pick again by White Wolf before dying again. (of course, they were an actual firm behind the revival) I think believing that VtES cannot rise is realistic, but may very well be wrong in the end. Never underestimate the power of a good game.

> Ohlmann wrote: > Amusingly, the best example I know is VtES, which was all but dead between Sabbat and Sabbat War. It was pick again by White Wolf before dying again. (of course, they were an actual firm behind the revival) > > I think believing that VtES cannot rise is realistic, but may very well be wrong in the end. Never underestimate the power of a good game. > Ok I will give you that, but White Wolf well really CCP has differing focus at this point. They are banking hard on their MMO working and selling their micro-transactions within it. CCGs are a huge investment on the publishers side so I don't see them really going back into that market with how volatile it can be.

> LordNat wrote: > Ok I will give you that, but White Wolf well really CCP has differing focus at this point. They are banking hard on their MMO working and selling their micro-transactions within it. CCGs are a huge investment on the publishers side so I don't see them really going back into that market with how volatile it can be. > Unlikely thing happen all the time. It's not that your analysis is wrong. It's that miracles happen, generally alway unexpected but more often than what you'd expect. (the last one I seen were when I discovered that Dragon Dice - an even more minor game of the same age than VtES - was still alive and kickin') The LCG have a potential of being a threat, but it have a slim chance of being a boon. Having a true revival is unlikely but possible. An LCG editor may send cease and desist to revival attempt, but they may also understand this is another game completely, for example because they believe the game and/or the community is useful to them.

> Ohlmann wrote: > Unlikely thing happen all the time. > > It's not that your analysis is wrong. It's that miracles happen, generally alway unexpected but more often than what you'd expect. (the last one I seen were when I discovered that Dragon Dice - an even more minor game of the same age than VtES - was still alive and kickin') > > The LCG have a potential of being a threat, but it have a slim chance of being a boon. Having a true revival is unlikely but possible. An LCG editor may send cease and desist to revival attempt, but they may also understand this is another game completely, for example because they believe the game and/or the community is useful to them. > When they announced Android: Netrunner there was a fan project to revive the game and they did not ask it to stop. That said it died almost the moment that they released the game as generally considered one of the best games ever made so even the most diehard Netrunner players converted.

> LordNat wrote: > That said it died almost the moment that they released the game as generally considered one of the best games ever made so even the most diehard Netrunner players converted. > So I am the most diehard fan of Netrunner More seriously, if VtES die because everybody convert to another game, so be it. There is a problem only if there is still a real amount of vtes player which are being harassed by the new game owner out of fear for its own game. Of course, since I am not confident on this game quality for now (nor that it's a replacement for VtES either), I fear that this future LCG may be unsuccessful at least at first and that the effort of FFG to make it successful will be harmful to VtES. That's the worst case scenario, which is unlikely. If VtES "die" simply because a better game replace it, it's more or less a best case scenario for me.

Best case scenario for me is someone picking up the game and trying to integrate the old stuff with new stuff they would develop. So that would be for FFG to pick up VtES.

Looks like there was another Play Test yesterday. boards.4chan.org/tg/res/23662190 > > Playtest report: > Me and 4 of my friends went down to the FFG Event Center last night to play some Netrunner and they ended up doing a playtest of WoD: LCG. We all made sure to made as many mental notes as we can and all compared what we learned. > > They was a Hunter deck and what seemed to be a new Faction, we agreed it was likely Changeling, it focused on Stealth and traps that hurt people if they block you. > > Combat was playable. Seems to follow V:TES mostly but they removed range and maneuvers over all. Pressing into more rounds of combat was still there. > > Hunters focused on aggravated damage so most people avoided combat honestly. > > Hunter's faction card gave you one extra press in combat per turn and the Changeling card was +1 Stealth on your 2nt action of the turn. > > Politics saw some more play and worked well from what we saw. All the political cards seemed to be neutral in theme. > > That was the big stuff we saw. I can try to cover any questions people ask. >

I'm curious whether FFG does all of their playtesting internally. I'm sure there are many VTES players who would like some input in the process. Glad to see they're keeping agg damage. I'm a little iffy on removing range, however. Baron of Berkeley

> Count wrote: > I'm curious whether FFG does all of their playtesting internally. I'm sure there are many VTES players who would like some input in the process. > > Glad to see they're keeping agg damage. I'm a little iffy on removing range, however. > I'd guess they just do it out of their Event Center as it is an easy controlled place to do it. They have a bunch of their teams that go there after work to unwind play some games so most people there know internal FFG people on a personal level. If they shipped playtests all over they'd be scanned on online within moments.

Maybe it's not that bad. This could be something to actually bring people over to VtES. I honestly doubt this new LCG would reach the level of VtES anytime soon. Given similar, but streamlined game mechanics, this could become something like a balanced introduction into WoD card games with VtES being much deeper and complex bigger brother for those hooked-up. Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.

> kombainas wrote: > Maybe it's not that bad. This could be something to actually bring people over to VtES. I honestly doubt this new LCG would reach the level of VtES anytime soon. Given similar, but streamlined game mechanics, this could become something like a balanced introduction into WoD card games with VtES being much deeper and complex bigger brother for those hooked-up. > That is like saying people will go from the Starwars LCG back to the Starwars CCG. People don't tend to like to change back to a less streamlined more clunky version of a game they enjoy. Just look at the Modern game market, overly complex clunky games are dying while clean and streamline games are thriving.

> LordNat wrote: > Just look at the Modern game market, overly complex clunky games are dying while clean and streamline games are thriving. > overly complex clunky game like Magic ? That's too much of an oversimplification to say the new game will be clean and streamlined, and VtES comparatively complex and clunky.

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > LordNat wrote: > > Just look at the Modern game market, overly complex clunky games are dying while clean and streamline games are thriving. > > > overly complex clunky game like Magic ? > > That's too much of an oversimplification to say the new game will be clean and streamlined, and VtES comparatively complex and clunky. > Magic has been highly streamlined. Modern Magic looks vary little like the older magic. Take a gander at the Standard format some time. Also if we compare FFG's work on Netrunner and Starwars than yes it is likely V:TES will be seen as complex and clunky.

> LordNat wrote: > Magic has been highly streamlined. Modern Magic looks vary little like the older magic. Take a gander at the Standard format some time. > I actually play standard. I believe you are utterly wrong, since the fifth edition there have been no real evolution ; the only one was a slight complexification of the rule, with the stack disappering in one specific case. Also, there is the smallish thing that, with adding rule every set, specific cases are added with a steady rate. I don't think anything in VtES can approach the sheer complexity of Madness, but even simply the interaction between planewalker that have became creatures and other spell are extremely clunky. > LordNat wrote: > Also if we compare FFG's work on Netrunner and Starwars than yes it is likely V:TES will be seen as complex and clunky. > I don't know for star war, but Netrunner have something like two rule changes at all, who are both pretty neutral in complexity, and in any case in not-so-important compartiment of the rule. Non-CCG game also don't seem to be less complex or more streamlined. I can actually think of some who have done the reverse (small world vs Vinci). And chess don't seem to lose any popularity, while it have one hell of clunky ruleset. Lastly, even if it were true, it does not prove that it's actually something that matter to player. Modern games differ from old one on a lot more than "streamlining" ; it's more that there is a lot of factor where game designer got better, and that help. And VtES may have a significant part of thoses already, like magic had. I believe you have a predefined view (games become more streamlined and less complex and that make them more successful) and try to make the reality conform to your view. Reality, like alway, is more complex than that. Especially since, believe it or not, one of the most important factor in success is luck. (side note : I know the irony of explaining to someone that he try too much to make reality fit his view)

Madness has been around for ages and most of the issues with Planeswalkers was bad wording of rules not bad design. They have steamlined combat greatly just a few years back and cleaned up things like The Stack. Only the cleaner and easier Keywords are printed in newer sets and even a bunch of those got reworked. Magic has been highly cleaned and reformatted over the last few years. V:TES on the other hand had a bunch of loaded keywords that are often not explained on the card (Titles and such), Many subsystems that interacted oddly or did not interact at all (Politics, Combat, etc), and was all around designed in an age when there was little mastery of game design. It is a clunky and complex game that came out of an age of clunky and complex games, you might not see it now as some one who was part of that age but younger gamers (I spend 50% of my time at least teaching games to people under the age of 20) hate that kind of thing. They enjoy clean and simple to learn games that still allow for deep play (yes you can have both). Netrunner for the example did get a bunch of changes, The entire way deck building works, Tracing, the Factions system, many of the card designs got cleaned up, keywords and such got cleaned up. It went threw a massive cleaning and reworking to come out much better and attractive to the modern gamer. So anyway the point I am making is what really matters is two things: Clean design and frankly advertising. The games that do well get out into the public and hit big. One of the reasons FFG is doing so well now it it grabbed the public eye buy getting some big names like Warhammer 40k, Starwars, WoW, Starcraft, etc. They are well known and now any time they make a game it gets talked about. If V:TES comes back to life as it is now than it will still just be a tiny side game in the CCG market that is mostly played by the older crowd (See Legend of the Five Rings and it's slow death it is having). People need to welcome change and that is really the only way V:TES can live again.

> LordNat wrote: > If V:TES comes back to life as it is now than it will still just be a tiny side game in the CCG market that is mostly played by the older crowd (See Legend of the Five Rings and it's slow death it is having). People need to welcome change and that is really the only way V:TES can live again. > Very well put.

One quick comment, and a more general thought. Quick comment is that everyone should remind themselves that we are making conjectures based upon rumors. And, even if the rumors are true, the game might not get released, or could be substantially different from the playtest version being discussed, by the time it gets released. More general thought is to give a few possible outcomes if a non-VtES WoD LCG does come out : (1) The game is good but isn't really compatible with old cards. This will be an awkward situation, but is it really so bad to have to sit and decide which of two really good games to play? (2) The game is good, and fairly compatible with VtES. Probably would require some fan effort to convert / ban some cards, but this would be a pretty cool situation I think. Play just the new game with new players, play the expanded hybrid game with people who have VtES cards, etc. (3) The game is good but the flavor and source material is bad or unfaithful or whatever. A lot of VtES players I know like the source material but don't find it essential, it's not the main thing that brings them to the game. (4) The game is not good, it gets bad reviews, and it dies off or limps along. VtES still could re-emerge, but the IP licensing issues get even more complicated. (5) The game is never released; see (4) above. (6) The rumors are false and we got all agitated about nothing. Of course, life is never that simple, and instead we'll have lengthy forum flame wars about whether the game is good or not, or how best to adapt old cards, etc etc. But when I look at the scenarios above, (2) seems the best to me, with (1) and (6) tied for a distant second place. VtES store : www.prunesquallor.net Card supplies & games : stores.ebay.com/Prunesquallors-Secret-Cache

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > LordNat wrote: > > Magic has been highly streamlined. Modern Magic looks vary little like the older magic. Take a gander at the Standard format some time. > > > I actually play standard. I believe you are utterly wrong, since the fifth edition there have been no real evolution ; the only one was a slight complexification of the rule, with the stack disappering in one specific case. > Do you mean 6th Edition? That was THE major rules update. The rules also changed significantly in 10th Edition. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> prunesquallor wrote: > One quick comment, and a more general thought. > > Quick comment is that everyone should remind themselves that we are making conjectures based upon rumors. And, even if the rumors are true, the game might not get released, or could be substantially different from the playtest version being discussed, by the time it gets released. > > More general thought is to give a few possible outcomes if a non-VtES WoD LCG does come out : > > (1) The game is good but isn't really compatible with old cards. This will be an awkward situation, but is it really so bad to have to sit and decide which of two really good games to play? > > (2) The game is good, and fairly compatible with VtES. Probably would require some fan effort to convert / ban some cards, but this would be a pretty cool situation I think. Play just the new game with new players, play the expanded hybrid game with people who have VtES cards, etc. > Not compatible at all. New card only, and will stay this way. > prunesquallor wrote: > (3) The game is good but the flavor and source material is bad or unfaithful or whatever. A lot of VtES players I know like the source material but don't find it essential, it's not the main thing that brings them to the game. > > (4) The game is not good, it gets bad reviews, and it dies off or limps along. VtES still could re-emerge, but the IP licensing issues get even more complicated. > > (5) The game is never released; see (4) above. > > (6) The rumors are false and we got all agitated about nothing. > > Of course, life is never that simple, and instead we'll have lengthy forum flame wars about whether the game is good or not, or how best to adapt old cards, etc etc. But when I look at the scenarios above, (2) seems the best to me, with (1) and (6) tied for a distant second place. > Rumors seems legit. > Reports from last nights playtest a FFG Event Center: > Each player gets a faction card that has an extra power related to your group. Vampires get +1 Drain (Bleed) on their first Drain action on their turn, Mages get to discard an extra card before drawing. Hunters and Werewolves did not get tested. > > Votes for political actions are gained from your faction card and characters that grant votes, titles are power cards you put into play that give a set number of votes and an extra effect you can use in a referendum. > > Actions still work on stealth and intercept but each time you target a player with an action in a turn they get +1 intercept for the rest of the turn. > > Vampires seem to be Drain focused using stealth and bonus drain. > > Mages used a bunch of combo actions that lead to killing resources and locations that slowly build them power. > > The game seemed to be over all in early beta so we might not see anything official for awhile but I will be keeping an eye out for more playtest reports as it sounds like official FFG stores are going to be getting playtest events soon. > Not so happy that vampires are bunch of malkavian wannabees. > Now that we know there is going to be a World of Darkness Living Card Game from FFG lets speculate about what they are doing with it. > What we know: > The game heavily influenced by V:TES. > Core set will focus on Vampire, Hunter, Mage, and Werewolf. > Politics will make a return but players will gain titles in place of characters having them. > Combat is being fully rewritten. > The Core set will be designed for 2-4 players with a single box, rules are written for unlimited players. > V:TES's Predator/Prey system for multiplayer will make a return. > > Rumors: > Each faction is going to have 4 "disciplines" for a total of 16 in the Core set. > The Blood system from V:TES is returning and be reflavored as fighting over the power in a city. Bleeding will become Draining, Hunting will be Gathering, etc. > Good, there will be both 4(+) tables and some 1vs1 option. 4 disciplines per faction is a bit low. Even considering nWoD that have less disciplines. City focus is good. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> prunesquallor wrote: > (1) The game is good but isn't really compatible with old cards. This will be an awkward situation, but is it really so bad to have to sit and decide which of two really good games to play? > Half the playerbase migrates, V:TES stops getting new players as they are more attracted to a simpler game with official support. The rest of the playerbase then has the choice to either stick with the sinking ship and play 5-man tournaments for the rest of it's lifespan or dump nearly 20 years worth of cards in favor of a blank slate.

> Suoli wrote: > > > prunesquallor wrote: > > (1) The game is good but isn't really compatible with old cards. This will be an awkward situation, but is it really so bad to have to sit and decide which of two really good games to play? > > > Half the playerbase migrates, V:TES stops getting new players as they are more attracted to a simpler game with official support. The rest of the playerbase then has the choice to either stick with the sinking ship and play 5-man tournaments for the rest of it's lifespan or dump nearly 20 years worth of cards in favor of a blank slate. > Don't count on half of playerbase migrating. I don't see death of v:tes just because similar game is released, just like i don't see death of magic just because wow is released. Most important (imo) v:tes problem is getting the cards, which make people quit or not try v:tes, not some new card game. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Lech wrote: > > > Suoli wrote: > > > > > prunesquallor wrote: > > > (1) The game is good but isn't really compatible with old cards. This will be an awkward situation, but is it really so bad to have to sit and decide which of two really good games to play? > > > > > > > > Half the playerbase migrates, V:TES stops getting new players as they are more attracted to a simpler game with official support. The rest of the playerbase then has the choice to either stick with the sinking ship and play 5-man tournaments for the rest of it's lifespan or dump nearly 20 years worth of cards in favor of a blank slate. > > > Don't count on half of playerbase migrating. I don't see death of v:tes just because similar game is released, just like i don't see death of magic just because wow is released. Most important (imo) v:tes problem is getting the cards, which make people quit or not try v:tes, not some new card game. > I see one flaw in your logic. Magic was huge when WoW ccg came out. It has official support. It has a huge community. It attracts people with more reasons than VtES does. It allows for professional play. It has new cards and formats regularly. VtES is just the best multiplayer CCG ever conceived by man. Apart from that we are on our own. Make no mistake about it. If: 1- a new game comes out that isn't compatible with VtES cards. 2- takes away from us the possibility to keep developing new expansions. 3- competes with VtES for new players. ... VtES is dead. hmmm... maybe PCK get interested in this new game and move their shenanigans there.

> Brum wrote: > Make no mistake about it. If: > 1- a new game comes out that isn't compatible with VtES cards. > 2- takes away from us the possibility to keep developing new expansions. > 3- competes with VtES for new players. > ... VtES is dead. > Add : 4 - have a lasting success.

> Brum wrote: > I see one flaw in your logic. > Magic was huge when WoW ccg came out. > It has official support. It has a huge community. It attracts people with more reasons than VtES does. It allows for professional play. It has new cards and formats regularly. > > VtES is just the best multiplayer CCG ever conceived by man. > Apart from that we are on our own. > > Make no mistake about it. If: > 1- a new game comes out that isn't compatible with VtES cards. > 2- takes away from us the possibility to keep developing new expansions. > 3- competes with VtES for new players. > ... VtES is dead. > > hmmm... maybe PCK get interested in this new game and move their shenanigans there. > 1. No big deal, it's just a different game like thousand others. 2. I don't think so. VEKN may still be able to keep developing new expansions, it may be just more problematic to PRINT actual cards. 3. Like every other cg. VtES is just as undead as it was before. New game can be boon just as likely as it can be burden. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Lech wrote: > 1. No big deal, it's just a different game like thousand others. > Based on the rumours posted here, it's not a different game like a thousand others. It's repurposed V:TES. Yes, it will attempt to leech players specifically from the V:TES playerbase. It would be an idiotic business move not to. This thread is basically about gauging to what extent the players are willing to migrate. > VtES is just as undead as it was before. New game can be boon just as likely as it can be burden. > Only if it turns out to be a) V:TES lite, an introductory course for real V:TES or b) backwards compatible. I don't see any other way V:TES could benefit from it.

> Brum wrote: > hmmm... maybe PCK get interested in this new game and move their shenanigans there. > Deflection! Redirection! B-) PCK is pretty open about what we are doing. If you want to learn more, check out our blog at pckvtes.wordpress.com or follow us on twitter @pck_vtes. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

Look, we all know that VTES has problems. Disciplines which outstrip the others, unequal rewards for possessing titles, the power gap between 10 and 11 caps, clans that lack an in-clan path to victory. The list could go on and on. We play the game despite these problems, but they do exist. Would a reboot really be so bad (other than the very regrettable fact that we would all have to buy new cards!)? If it's a terrible game, the question is mute, but if it turns out to be a great game (keeps the core of VTES, has a fun rewarding multiplayer experience, and maintains better balance between clans/factions and disciplines), then we get to have an improved gaming experience. Personally, I'll wait and see what FFG produces before passing too much judgement. Oh, and on the subject of balance, I think that this will inherently require that the game take a step back from the RPG source material, which is directly responsible for many of VTES' problems. Dominate is a very flexible discipline in the RPG, sometimes held back only by the storyteller (who might have to resort to throwing lots of older vampires at the players to prevent dominate abuse). Adherence to canon has also caused problems for clans like !Gangrel, who have been forced to have a discipline split that doesn't help them in the card game, and makes crypt formation much more difficult. Again, the list goes on and on. So, please FFG, give us a game inspired by WoD, but not completely beholden to its every nuance! Check out my VTES blog: Gaming with BS I also host a google doc which separates the TWDA into clans . That means I track how often clans win, which crypt groups get used, and how many people attend events. You can access all of that info here:

> Suoli wrote: > > > Lech wrote: > > 1. No big deal, it's just a different game like thousand others. > > > Based on the rumours posted here, it's not a different game like a thousand others. It's repurposed V:TES. Yes, it will attempt to leech players specifically from the V:TES playerbase. It would be an idiotic business move not to. This thread is basically about gauging to what extent the players are willing to migrate. > > > VtES is just as undead as it was before. New game can be boon just as likely as it can be burden. > > > Only if it turns out to be a) V:TES lite, an introductory course for real V:TES or b) backwards compatible. I don't see any other way V:TES could benefit from it. > Of course it will try to leech some players (burden), it can also be easy way to introduce someone to vtes (boon). And players can play more than just 1 game. > brettscho wrote: > Look, we all know that VTES has problems. Disciplines which outstrip the others, unequal rewards for possessing titles, the power gap between 10 and 11 caps, clans that lack an in-clan path to victory. The list could go on and on. We play the game despite these problems, but they do exist. Would a reboot really be so bad (other than the very regrettable fact that we would all have to buy new cards!)? If it's a terrible game, the question is mute, but if it turns out to be a great game (keeps the core of VTES, has a fun rewarding multiplayer experience, and maintains better balance between clans/factions and disciplines), then we get to have an improved gaming experience. Personally, I'll wait and see what FFG produces before passing too much judgement. > > Oh, and on the subject of balance, I think that this will inherently require that the game take a step back from the RPG source material, which is directly responsible for many of VTES' problems. Dominate is a very flexible discipline in the RPG, sometimes held back only by the storyteller (who might have to resort to throwing lots of older vampires at the players to prevent dominate abuse). Adherence to canon has also caused problems for clans like !Gangrel, who have been forced to have a discipline split that doesn't help them in the card game, and makes crypt formation much more difficult. Again, the list goes on and on. So, please FFG, give us a game inspired by WoD, but not completely beholden to its every nuance! > No, adherence to the lore isn't problematic at all. Card balance and design choices are responsible for the poor state of some clans. I'm not saying i would do it better out of the box, but most problematic cards were printed in two first expansions, and now are easy to identify and fix. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

Forgive me for disagreeing with you most strongly about adherence to lore. How can one possibly strengthen a clan without also strengthening all the other clans that share that discipline? Take for example, !Gangrel. Maybe we should provide an Obf card that would help them out. But now suddenly, every other vampire with Obf is made better by virtue of access to that card. Inner Circle decks would dance for joy. The fact is that each discipline has a “realm” of abilities (think colors in magic, but generally not well defined or adhered to, sadly). And some of these realms inherently compliment each other better than others. Take Toreador – Auspex for defense, Presence for offense (bleed and vote) + combat defense, and Celerity for combat offense (particularly when paired with guns) + a little stealth. This allows the Toreadors to actively participate in every aspect of the game. I suppose their weakness is that they are stealth light. Compare this to say Nosferatu (certainly not a weak clan!) - Animalism for combat + minor intercept, Obfuscate for stealth, and Potence for more combat. So they sneak past you or beat you up, but in either case, their actions carry no weight to them. No potency, if you will. Is this a play style difference? Certainly. Is it balanced... well, balance is very hard to judge (in my opinion) in VTES, but I would claim no. The Toreadors have more flexibility, and have more paths to victory available to them. Why? Because of the lore. Not the card game. The final problem that I see if that you have disciplines that are inherently flexible. I understand from a flavor / lore perspective why Presence should allow you to vote well, bleed well, and have Strike: Combat Ends. But it hard to stand that side by side to Obfuscate (which essentially has one purpose in the game), or Potence. This imbalance in the disciplines (both in potency and flexibility) is a direct result of adherence to the lore. For better or worse. Check out my VTES blog: Gaming with BS I also host a google doc which separates the TWDA into clans . That means I track how often clans win, which crypt groups get used, and how many people attend events. You can access all of that info here:

> brettscho wrote: > Forgive me for disagreeing with you most strongly about adherence to lore. How can one possibly strengthen a clan without also strengthening all the other clans that share that discipline? > Clan-specific cards would do that trick.

> brettscho wrote: > Compare this to say Nosferatu (certainly not a weak clan!) - Animalism for combat + minor intercept, Obfuscate for stealth, and Potence for more combat. So they sneak past you or beat you up, but in either case, their actions carry no weight to them. No potency, if you will. > > Is this a play style difference? Certainly. Is it balanced... well, balance is very hard to judge (in my opinion) in VTES, but I would claim no. The Toreadors have more flexibility, and have more paths to victory available to them. Why? Because of the lore. Not the card game. > > ...This imbalance in the disciplines (both in potency and flexibility) is a direct result of adherence to the lore. For better or worse. > I wanted to disagree with you, but I have to admit you're right. It is true for the most part that the clans that are most influential in the lore are the most influential in the game. Dominate and Auspex are the most important disciplines in the Jyhad, with Presence and Obfuscate a close third and fourth. In Chicago by Night, the two most influential Brujah, the sleeping Methusaleh Menele and ancient primogen Critias, are most served by their highly developed Dominate and Auspex respectively, not their clan disciplines. Mental disciplines have more weight in the Jyhad. (That doesn't mean that physical disciplines have no weight, though.) The original game was designed that way. I don't think the Nosferatu are a strong clan at all. If there weren't Nosferatu princes and justicars, Deep Song, or Beast, what would they have? I mean, there are mid- and high-cap / that never, ever get played. I love adherence to lore, but I think that more could have been done to craft winning archetypes for all the clans. The designers were certainly thinking in those terms when they designed the cards for Temporis, Melpominee, Spiritus, Mytherceria, and Sanguinis. With the stupid antitribu/non-antitribu split, do we really want more clan-specific cards? I saw in PCK's Sabbat set that they tried to "help" , , and in just that way. It didn't deal with the underlying issue of discipline inadequacy. I hope that VEKN's set doesn't try to shoehorn in sweeping bleed defense for just one of those Sabbat clans, for instance. If new cards are being imposed on the game, I think that dual-discipline cards are the way to go. For example, an / plus bleed card with limited pool gain. I don't really want the game to start from scratch, but I think a revised version (in LCG format!) could be a very good thing.

> AaronC wrote: > I don't really want the game to start from scratch, but I think a revised version (in LCG format!) could be a very good thing. > Well, it's hard not to like it when people agree with you . But this is exactly where I am right now. I like VTES, I think it has many strengths, but I also consider it to be a deeply flawed game with significant problems. And I think that some of those problems were either created or made worse by a strict adherence to the lore. The difference between a card game and an RPG is the storyteller. If I'm in a game, I have faith that my storyteller will find a way for my weird insane character to be useful, and I'll get to shine (and in that case, who cares about "balance"?). Unfortunately, there is nobody adjudicating the card game, and nobody whose job it is to make sure everybody at the table is having fun. That task falls to the game designers. Of course, this is all simply my opinion.... Check out my VTES blog: Gaming with BS I also host a google doc which separates the TWDA into clans . That means I track how often clans win, which crypt groups get used, and how many people attend events. You can access all of that info here:

I have always thought that the game mechanics of the New World of Darkness was better than the old. At the same time, players prefer the lore of the Old World of Darkness over the new. Wouldn't it be a total win if you could have your cake and eat it too? Try taking the lore from the oWoD, and use the game mechanics of the nWoD. A single political system, where the Camarilla, Sabbat, anarchs and independent clans are at odds with each other, but maneuver within the same political system. (Holy shit, that's like V:tES already!) "Blood Magics" are not disciplines, instead they are tied to sect or clan. Generation, while not so important in V:tES, but in the tabletop it is a terrible game mechanic. Replace it with Blood Potency. As far as V:tES is concerned, it doesn't matter. There are clan politics, and there are sect politics and there are city politics. There is room for each in a card game without splitting clans into antitribue. I am not so interested in a "crossover" WoD card game, but I would welcome a reboot. I don't like everything about the nWoD, but the mechanics are improved and streamlined. I would like to see the same in a card game. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

> brettscho wrote: > Look, we all know that VTES has problems. Disciplines which outstrip the others, unequal rewards for possessing titles, the power gap between 10 and 11 caps, clans that lack an in-clan path to victory. The list could go on and on. We play the game despite these problems, but they do exist. > I absolutely agree with this - there is lots of things that COULD be done in a new game/reboot. One other thing is redesigning combat, which many new players have problem understanding. Combat is also the bit were the somewhat strange card drawing mechanic of VTES comes to show the most, were you play cards just to draw new ones. Intuitively I prefer games were you handle resources more conservative. That said - VTES is a fantabolous game, and I would prefer the print-on-demand solution and not a new game. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > That said - VTES is a fantabolous game, and I would prefer the print-on-demand solution and not a new game. > Here here! Finnish Politics!

Translating the rpg stuff to vtes wasnt done appropriately. Dominate requires eye contact most of the time. And using it on a higher gen vamp is stupid hard if not impossible. In the fiction, there are umpteen references to not looking a vamp in the eye that is older. Lucita totally makes the younger Tolliver grind his leg to a stump by sticking it on the road while the car they are in is going 90mph. But age and stronger blood, along with varying degrees of contact matter. Deflection is too good to be really tied to lore. Dementations effects are downplayed in vtes, as are certain auspex powers, and the end all be all in vtm of protean is one of the weakest things in vtes. Dont even get me started on tham and necro. They arent disciplines, but a series of spells and such. Same with tzimitze sorcery, same with shango. Also, antitribbu is still same clan, and while we are on this route, HoS and the laibon cappadocian decendants are really cappadoccians. The samedi and giovanni are destinct bloodlines though. Also, tbe ishtari are torries and the osebo brujah(see their temperment and flaws is you think the disciplines could mean vice versa) in the same way that kinyoni are ravnos and shango are spell slinging assamites. The akunanse are different enough to just be a bloodline, but still, adhearing is helpful. Oh, and the gangrel dont suck so bad in vtm. What im getting at is much of the flawed parts of the game are becauseof not adhering properly to the fluff. HoS gangrel, loads of disciplines... would all be better if closer to vtm fluff. Now, dont get me started on bloodpotency. Vtr had cool stuff, but shoehorning in malks as a bloodline looking like roxannes discipline spread or as a disease due to fan rage was DUMB. stupider yet was frenzy checks for every new vamp met and most of blood potency`s existance. Power, cool, inability to feed on animals, whatever. But feeding on licks, mandatory torpor, nightmares(hope u know a rare bloodline or have a freehold of lost ready for a century or u remember notbi.g useful) and inability to learn out of clan powers excepting thru diablert? Even tho stock characters have good spreads? Terrible. Wyrd and azoth made perfect sense, the big threes traits sucked and made no sense. Capacity in vtes is a fine thing, combat is easier than politics, but our flaws are discipline and clan imbalance and difficulty swinging new players, since vtm is oop, and ccp is dragging on thier damn game they killex everything for. If we get pod, fix imbalances via new sets, and get players due to ccp's mmorpg, we r golden. The new game has little to do with us. Its not a 90s garfeild game. We win.

Part of why I'm optimistic here is that there's no reason to think a new game and the PoD reprints are mutually exclusive. CCP currently licenses oWoD content through Onyx Path and produces nWod content through White Wolf via DriveThru. If the rumors pan out to be true and FFG is working on a nWoD card game, it's not much of a break from the model they're using right now to produce RPG material for both games concurrently. I mean, if they can make money off two streams of income that cost the company next to no resources, why wouldn't they? One game is already produced, the other's development is outsourced.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > Dominate requires eye contact most of the time. > Well dominate 6 is not that hard to get, and can remove this condition. Presence 1 - which may not qualify for presence inf' in the card game - is also a very easy way to get eye contact. > > ReverendRevolver wrote: > Also, tbe ishtari are torries and the osebo brujah(see their temperment and flaws is you think the disciplines could mean vice versa) > Well, a "clan" is not something well defined in Vampire. If we believe it's a cultural entity (and most clan card are really cultural part more than anything else), Osebo and Ishtarri aren't brujah and toreador. By the way, that's why Clan Impersonation work, and why Vitel is considered Ventrue. If you believe a clan is a mystical link to the antediluvian, there is a real possibility that Ravnos and Gangrel are the same clan, since Ennoia may well have been embraced by Ravnos. Also, since some mystic event do have created bloodline, why summarily denie this to Harbinger, Osebo, etc ? Some of thoses are mysterious enough, and the Harbinger clearly had a mystical thing imposed on them. > > ReverendRevolver wrote: > Now, dont get me started on bloodpotency. Vtr had cool stuff, but shoehorning in malks as a bloodline looking like roxannes discipline spread or as a disease due to fan rage was DUMB. stupider yet was frenzy checks for every new vamp met and most of blood potency`s existance. > I completely agree. The blood potency seem a good idea on paper, but in the RPG it's awful and one of the big problem of the nVampire.

> AaronC wrote: > With the stupid antitribu/non-antitribu split, do we really want more clan-specific cards? I saw in PCK's Sabbat set that they tried to "help" , , and in just that way. It didn't deal with the underlying issue of discipline inadequacy. I hope that VEKN's set doesn't try to shoehorn in sweeping bleed defense for just one of those Sabbat clans, for instance. If new cards are being imposed on the game, I think that dual-discipline cards are the way to go. For example, an / plus bleed card with limited pool gain. > Most players would likely concur that the design of the Antitribu clans could have been done a lot better. LSJ gave an example of that by doing Independents of different sects. Starting with the premise that it's not possible to retro-actively merge Antitribu with their counterpart clans, we have to go with the status quo. This means that clan cards are the best solution to address "weak" clans. Of course, the could very well use a dual discipline card with which would in theory cover part of their weakness. However, whenever a new dual-discipline card is introduced into the game, it will have unexpected and even unwanted side effects. Do the , who have access to all the shiny Camarilla-tech also need the same boost like their Sabbat counerparts? That is quite debatable. I can think of 3 already strong vampires that could benefit to varying degrees from a bleed boost with pool gain card: Cybele Enkidu Lucian the Perfect And there are surely more out there. I'm a fan of precise tools for clans that need a boost. I agree though, that not all disciplines are equally strong. It has been that way right from the start, and it's hard to change that radically wihtout upsetting the fragile balance of VTES. But I'm always open to suggestions. pckvtes.wordpress.com

> Amenophobis wrote: > But I'm always open to suggestions. > Let's be honest : you're like any other player. It's more the ones who work on future sets that would be interested in a non-rhetorical way

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > Translating the rpg stuff to vtes wasnt done appropriately. Dominate requires eye contact most of the time. And using it on a higher gen vamp is stupid hard if not impossible. In the fiction, there are umpteen references to not looking a vamp in the eye that is older. > > Deflection is too good to be really tied to lore. Dementations effects are downplayed in vtes, as are certain auspex powers, and the end all be all in vtm of protean is one of the weakest things in vtes. Dont even get me started on tham and necro. They arent disciplines, but a series of spells and such. > > Oh, and the gangrel dont suck so bad in vtm. > What im getting at is much of the flawed parts of the game are becauseof not adhering properly to the fluff. > You make a good point that some of the discipline translations aren't accurate in VTES. Dominate, especially, can do things in the game that couldn't be done in the RPG. There are several people on the threads who have written that some disciplines and clans could be made better by making things that are currently too good (Deflection, Parity Shift) worse. At the same time, I still think that mental disciplines give a vampire greater influence in a general sense than physical ones do, thus Mr. Garfield's making them so powerful in the original game. And Old Man - I think powers of 6 or more dots are technically very hard to get. Basic characters couldn't get them unless they paid to start as 8th generation and then diablerized an older vampire. And then they had to pay the skill points, whose expense increases geometrically for every dot.

> AaronC wrote: > You make a good point that some of the discipline translations aren't accurate in VTES. Dominate, especially, can do things in the game that couldn't be done in the RPG. > Well, in fact, it work on the opposite sense : a lot of thing you can do with Auspex and/or dominate in the RPG cannot be done in the card game. Don't forget that with 3 in dominate you can rewrite the memory of someone you have captured and/or implant deep order in them. And with 4 in domination, you actually can make him permanently join your cause (well, until someone else with dom 4 capture him, that is ...). It's a lot easier to pull off in the RPG than in the card game, where you need to put him in torpor and get no benefit other than the change of controller. (yes, in the RPG, dominate is way too powerful. It's usually hidden because GM just don't let people slaughter their campaign with creative use of dominate, and also don't let their NPC do what any prince with 4 in dominate would do with dangerous individual, that is reprogram them completely) > AaronC wrote: > And Old Man - I think powers of 6 or more dots are technically very hard to get. Basic characters couldn't get them unless they paid to start as 8th generation and then diablerized an older vampire. And then they had to pay the skill points, whose expense increases geometrically for every dot. > For player, you're right. Except VtES isn't about group of PCs. For vampires at large, less so. 8th generation ain't something that rare, especially in Europa vampire. IIRC, each Paris primogen are 8th generation or less. And dominate 6 is extremely attractive no matter how you look at it. By the way, NPC with dominate 6+ aren't rare by any mean. And, of course, Presence 1 is extremely easy to get. it's neither expensive nor hard to learn, and it's surprisingly effective to make someone look at your eye. There is also the option to stake someone to prevent him from closing his eye. Imaginative people can find a lot of other way to see the eye of someone.

> Ohlmann wrote: > Don't forget that with 3 in dominate you can rewrite the memory of someone you have captured and/or implant deep order in them. And with 4 in domination, you actually can make him permanently join your cause (well, until someone else with dom 4 capture him, that is ...) > mmm, if I may ask, isn't exactly what Bonding, Govern the unaligned and far mastery actually do ? Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> Reyda wrote: > > > Ohlmann wrote: > > Don't forget that with 3 in dominate you can rewrite the memory of someone you have captured and/or implant deep order in them. And with 4 in domination, you actually can make him permanently join your cause (well, until someone else with dom 4 capture him, that is ...) > > > mmm, if I may ask, isn't exactly what Bonding, Govern the unaligned and far mastery actually do ? > Cough ... Mind Rape ... Cough. And thanks for donation. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

Speaking of lore, I don't quite understand the mechanics for werewolves. From what I can tell from the World of Darkness wiki, they don't have anything approaching disciplines. How could disciplines be adapted from VTES to suit them? Mages have spheres, and hunters we've already seen, so I'm just curious about garou. Baron of Berkeley

Garou powers (gifts? I own wtf{appropriate abreviation for anything nwod, imo} but not wta. Second ed isnt as apealing as rev, and its hard to find) are kinda between vampiric disciplines and wraith arcanoi. They have some uses rounded in the physical world and others focused on the spirit world, since they are of both. They interact with thier totem spirits, and can bind spirits to objects making fetishes, and i suppose this is kind of like necro or thaum rituals if you want to have a paralel. Also, physically a garou is just dumb. Its sadly one of the few things that transferred well to both pc games but not so much vtes. They are, as described in clan novel gangrel, a blur of fur and death, even able to rend several neonates like a dog would a box of dead squirrels. In vtes, tbey kind of are on par if you look at remnant or renegade garou, but to be fair, non agg should be regenerated at a rate of one life per round of combat. War ghouls have bones than break justifying thier "armor" that prevents one a round. Tbey are badass, but theo bell can kill 2 in a matter of a minute with his fists while lydia, christoff, and another brujah take that long to kill one, with weapons. A garou has high soak and regenerates fast, plus it should probably get stronger as combat goes on. Not translated right for the game, but a garou costs 5, so regenerating per round still isnt broke. As far as mental discipli.es translating, dominate has cool cards that dont get played due to cost that are thematically better suited than deflection. But its a staple, so it stays. Dementation needs more non bleed stuff. Tbat doesnt cost 3 blood. Movement of the mind should be permanent manuvef or press as an action at basic, with the addition of flight at big, and an untap if tbe vamp is 8+ . But stuff got lost in translation for some powers. We'll take it as it goes i guess...

> Ohlmann wrote: > By the way, NPC with dominate 6+ aren't rare by any mean. > I don´t know what campaigns you use to run, but according to the lore there should be about 1 vampire in 100,000 humans, there should be about 70,000 vampires in the world. My guess is not more than 5-10 % of those are of 7th or lower generation. And not even half of those have Dominate as clan discipline. Even if it´s attractive, maybe even a must for true powerplayers, to learn Dominate at high levels, it´s not that common. Say Paris has 100 vamps (it´s a cultural hub). Say 10 of those are 7th gen or lower. Say 3-5 of those have Dominate 6 or higher. Just saying. It´s up to the Storyteller of course, but "not rare by any means", how do you come to that conclusion? (This is very off topic, sorry) "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Count wrote: > Speaking of lore, I don't quite understand the mechanics for werewolves. From what I can tell from the World of Darkness wiki, they don't have anything approaching disciplines. How could disciplines be adapted from VTES to suit them? > They have gifts and rites and fetishes. And Rage and their different forms. It´s not powers rated 1-5+, but I don´t see any problem adapting this into a streamlined form if you have a little creativity. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Reyda wrote: > mmm, if I may ask, isn't exactly what Bonding, Govern the unaligned and far mastery actually do ? > they give permanent control of a vampire now, with an added view of the player hand and a fetching of uncovered haven on every vampire ? I didn't see the errata. Thoses are powerful cards, it's just that they pale in comparison of what do Dominate in the RPG. Auspex and presence also tend to be both very good in vtes and still underrated if we take the RPG rules. Especially the Summoning, which does not require the target to consent, nor to be a normal human > Ashur wrote: > My guess is not more than 5-10 % of those are of 7th or lower generation. And not even half of those have Dominate as clan discipline. Even if it´s attractive, maybe even a must for true powerplayers, to learn Dominate at high levels, it´s not that common. > In other words, in a city of 100 vampires, you have not one, but several important people who can do it. And they will certainly be called upon if the need arise. Even less importants city often have one ; for example, the old prince of Atlanta had dominate 6. In addition to thoses publics and "young" figure, there is an undisclosed amount of hidden 2000+ years methuselah, who simply alway have domination (see Meneleus, which despite having reached Golconda, having a tribe a werewolf worshipping him, and being relatively uninvolved in the jyhad still have dominate 6...). So, dominate 6 ain't all that rare. If the plan of a vampire rely on nobody being able to pull that out, he is very likely to have a phone call with mandatory instruction soon enough. In practice, most people prefer to ignore the power of dominate, presence, auspex, and improve the power of physical discipline because it's way easier to do interesting story this way. But the canon is pretty clear : mental discipline litteraly rule the world.

> LordNat wrote: > > > Ohlmann wrote: > > Unlikely thing happen all the time. > > > > It's not that your analysis is wrong. It's that miracles happen, generally alway unexpected but more often than what you'd expect. (the last one I seen were when I discovered that Dragon Dice - an even more minor game of the same age than VtES - was still alive and kickin') > > > > The LCG have a potential of being a threat, but it have a slim chance of being a boon. Having a true revival is unlikely but possible. An LCG editor may send cease and desist to revival attempt, but they may also understand this is another game completely, for example because they believe the game and/or the community is useful to them. > > > When they announced Android: Netrunner there was a fan project to revive the game and they did not ask it to stop. That said it died almost the moment that they released the game as generally considered one of the best games ever made so even the most diehard Netrunner players converted. > i am this guy who wanted to resurrect Netrunner . I wanted to do a real clean work and have Netrunner resurrected and official . FFG had the licence before me .. so how could i do without it ? I had no real choice to stop my project ... Then i actually play almost 98 % ANdroid: Netrunner why ? not because it is better, but because it has more players and the meta is living and changing fast . The game isn't better, there is no more "No Limit" and "sealed" but is is good . but they made no very big changings ( but a few that are very important) BUT i'd consider theses two games as two separate games: Netrunner for the sealed/no limit and android for the limitation and living meta . if Vtes LCG would change Vtes too much then the difference would be bigger than it is actually with Netrunner so you would have to consider these games as two games too . will it make WoD lcg better, worst ? don't know we will have to see but if there is a separation in the community( that didn't happended that much in NR) then it would be sad since the new WoD lcg will completly ruin the chance to se a real VTES returning. my 2 cts ( and sorry for my english)

This is a very weird discussion, but I´m gonna indulge myself anyway. > Ohlmann wrote: > > > Reyda wrote: > > mmm, if I may ask, isn't exactly what Bonding, Govern the unaligned and far mastery actually do ? > > > they give permanent control of a vampire now, with an added view of the player hand and a fetching of uncovered haven on every vampire ? I didn't see the errata. > > Thoses are powerful cards, it's just that they pale in comparison of what do Dominate in the RPG. Auspex and presence also tend to be both very good in vtes and still underrated if we take the RPG rules. Especially the Summoning, which does not require the target to consent, nor to be a normal human > Eh? I can´t even understand how you can compare a card game with a RPG. One has strict game mechanics, the other has diffuse rules and a almighty Storyteller decides what can be done. > Ohlmann wrote: > In other words, in a city of 100 vampires, you have not one, but several important people who can do it. And they will certainly be called upon if the need arise. > What do you mean “called upon”? So any ancillae with a problem just “calls upon” his clan elder to brainwash people here and there? That is not how it works, or at least it didn´t when I read and led VtM. > Ohlmann wrote: > Even less importants city often have one ; for example, the old prince of Atlanta had dominate 6. > Yes. One vamp (the prince) in a city of 500 000+ kine has Dominate 6+. I call that “rare”. > Ohlmann wrote: > In addition to thoses publics and "young" figure, there is an undisclosed amount of hidden 2000+ years methuselah, who simply alway have domination > How do you mean? There are 1 vamp in 100,000 humans. Period. Or do you mean inactive vamps don´t count? Anyway, nothing says and “undisclosed amount” should be shitloads. A couple in each major city maybe, not more. > Ohlmann wrote: > (see Meneleus, which despite having reached Golconda, having a tribe a werewolf worshipping him, and being relatively uninvolved in the jyhad still have dominate 6...). > How can you say that vamps such as Menele aren´t rare? He is arguably one of just 5-10 4th gen vamps in America. Of maybe 10 000 vamps totally in America, he is maybe one of 200 to have Dominate 6+, my guess based on the lore. > Ohlmann wrote: > So, dominate 6 ain't all that rare. If the plan of a vampire rely on nobody being able to pull that out, he is very likely to have a phone call with mandatory instruction soon enough. > No, Dominate 6 ARE rare. Any vamp that doesn´t possess that ability himself are likely to have to pull in some serious boon to make it happen, not just “make a phonecall”. > Ohlmann wrote: > > In practice, most people prefer to ignore the power of dominate, presence, auspex, and improve the power of physical discipline because it's way easier to do interesting story this way. But the canon is pretty clear : mental discipline litteraly rule the world. > Who are “most people”? Those that play VtM without understanding the setting? Anyway, it´s a RPG, so you can play it however you like. But if you read the lore, Dominate 6 IS rare. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

We are getting way off topic at tbus point. Which is good, as id rather discuss ways to hypothetically improve our game in future sets or even nitpick what we have and compare it to our source than talk about a game im not that excited about the idea of. (Which should mean alot to anyone from ffg lurking to see our response) But if we google vampjre geneology, i think the math has been done for us in total vamps. We can if we desire, see every elder and get an idea of how many they embraced, and so on and so forth until we have roof trickling from caine of the number of potential vamps with dominate and the ability to have more yhan 5 dots. Then we can have a seperate list of vamps that could maybe get it easily regardless of having it. But its moot, not to discount the base argument, but vtes translation has been liberal with its discipline assigning on vamps anyway, if you dont believe me che k children of the night and or kindreds most wanted and compare to ce, ae, kmw, bl, sw, etc vamps. Karsh's skin is so tough thosecwho have touched it and lived compare it to diamonds. Thats his stamina. His strength? He swings his sword and his enemys fall. Im not making this up, but i dont own the book to site it. I do own kmw(from 1994, oddly) and those vamps dont translate very well either. Ossians auspex hoser makes sense acter reading, as does much special text, but not the discilline spreads. Because elders have too many disciplines to document on a card. And sometimes randomness helps, sometimes it hurts. But id like to have this talk movex to a dedicated thread, and i feel at least the design team would like our opinions, since they have strong data on how many vtes players like the fluff integration. And to his credit,Ben Peal seems more than willing to do what he can in that regard, at least thats the idea i got last year talking to him about it.

Just a quick opinion: if the new one is compatible with vtes and the old cards can be used, then I am game. if not, then I am abolutely not interested and not going to support the new one at all

planet-vampire.net/forum/index.php?topic=4706.0 Menele(brujah),Augustus(gio),Marcellus Rufus(las),Silvester de Ruiz(las),Zambra Matour(las),Baba Yaga(nos),Christopher Houghton(tor),Hideon Yaroslavich(tzi), Gotsdam(ven),Gustav Breidenstein(ven),Hardestadt(ven), Lodin(ven),Lucius Trebius Rufus(ven). Bit low amount, too low to support your thesis Ohlmann. Mainly really low generation vampires, and from clans that have dominate in clan. Also, which may surprise you, not many kindred know what exactly dominate 6 really does (and it's just one of the possible option, if i recall right every discipline above 6 have more than one "path", dominate have at least 9 such "paths" so not everyone with dominate 6 can bypass eye contact requirement, most can't)(not to mention few - if any - of those would even consider using cell phones - those are PARANOID, traditional creatures). Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > Reyda wrote: > > mmm, if I may ask, isn't exactly what Bonding, Govern the unaligned and far mastery actually do ? > > > they give permanent control of a vampire now, with an added view of the player hand and a fetching of uncovered haven on every vampire ? I didn't see the errata. > love you when you are being the usual jerk. Last time I checked, governing down my vampires still gives me permanent control over them... bah. For the rest, other people already answered. Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> Reyda wrote: > > > Ohlmann wrote: > > > > > Reyda wrote: > > > mmm, if I may ask, isn't exactly what Bonding, Govern the unaligned and far mastery actually do ? > > > > > > > > they give permanent control of a vampire now, with an added view of the player hand and a fetching of uncovered haven on every vampire ? I didn't see the errata. > > > love you when you are being the usual jerk. > Last time I checked, governing down my vampires still gives me permanent control over them... bah. For the rest, other people already answered. > And control about his controller haven/hand too (he can take equipment from them). Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Lech wrote: > planet-vampire.net/forum/index.php?topic=4706.0 > > Menele(brujah),Augustus(gio),Marcellus Rufus(las),Silvester de Ruiz(las),Zambra Matour(las),Baba Yaga(nos),Christopher Houghton(tor),Hideon Yaroslavich(tzi), Gotsdam(ven),Gustav Breidenstein(ven),Hardestadt(ven), Lodin(ven),Lucius Trebius Rufus(ven). > > Bit low amount, too low to support your thesis Ohlmann. Mainly really low generation vampires, and from clans that have dominate in clan. > > Also, which may surprise you, not many kindred know what exactly dominate 6 really does (and it's just one of the possible option, if i recall right every discipline above 6 have more than one "path", dominate have at least 9 such "paths" so not everyone with dominate 6 can bypass eye contact requirement, most can't)(not to mention few - if any - of those would even consider using cell phones - those are PARANOID, traditional creatures). > Thats a cool list, but its ommitting important vamps, evsn tho it has other ones from the same sourcebooks. I only looked at the gangrel and brujah, but immidiately, no enkidu or karsh ( kmw and cotn, respectively) and i think i saw no count germaine(kmw, p. 62-66) . Anyway, dominate 6+ is at any rate nit accesible to lets say Dylan. Good pedigree, 6th gen, chijde of gotsdam, 11 total disciplines, dominate is only honed to 2 tho. He COULD get better at it, but doesnt. I dont see how someone weaker thanthe formidable dylan could have enough oomph as a 10-13 genvamp todivert a bleed( diverting will and intent) of lets say Hardestadt the younger or eleimelech ir the cynning saulot. Its little dominate weenies that really go against possibility.

> Ylly wrote: > Just a quick opinion: > if the new one is compatible with vtes and the old cards can be used, then I am game. > if not, then I am abolutely not interested and not going to support the new one at all > I'm pretty sure the new game will not be compatible in a supported way - FFG won't consider the old cards when designing, balancing, or providing faq answers. But that doesn't mean very much - if the games are close enough, then many VtES cards can be converted to the new game. Or again with some conversion guidelines, the new cards could be converted to VtES. This would need to be a fan effort. As Wormhole Surfer said regarding Netrunner, there are things lacking in Android Netrunner, but there is no disputing that it's a lot easier to find opponents for the new game, and that having a steadily evolving meta-game makes a big difference. If the new game is good and popular, we'll have the choice of adapting to it in some way, ignoring it, or competing with it. To me, the only good option is to adapt; ignoring it is to be like the card Anachronism, and competing with it doesn't seem likely to succeed. (and if the game is terrible, we can safely ignore it, it will soon be gone) VtES store : www.prunesquallor.net Card supplies & games : stores.ebay.com/Prunesquallors-Secret-Cache

> Ashur wrote: > Yes. One vamp (the prince) in a city of 500 000+ kine has Dominate 6+. I call that “rare”. > Side note : there is the ratio is 1 kine for 100.000 vampire as a maximum (and often a lot less so, by the lore). Atlanta urban area being WAY bigger than 500.000 inhabitants (I suppose 500.000 is the figure of the main city ?), it mean 1 vampire with dom 6 for maximum 50 vampire, and likely 20. So it's "rare" as in "1 on 20" People tend to forget that there is something like 2000 to 10.000 vampires on the whole earth. I can understand, because the extremely small size of vampire population and the extreme power of some discipline may not be conductive to good roleplay ; you just forgot that VtES is about the lore in general, not your personal interpretation.

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > Ashur wrote: > > Yes. One vamp (the prince) in a city of 500 000+ kine has Dominate 6+. I call that “rare”. > > > Side note : there is the ratio is 1 kine for 100.000 vampire as a maximum (and often a lot less so, by the lore). Atlanta urban area being WAY bigger than 500.000 inhabitants (I suppose 500.000 is the figure of the main city ?), it mean 1 vampire with dom 6 for maximum 50 vampire, and likely 20. So it's "rare" as in "1 on 20" > > People tend to forget that there is something like 2000 to 10.000 vampires on the whole earth. I can understand, because the extremely small size of vampire population and the extreme power of some discipline may not be conductive to good roleplay ; you just forgot that VtES is about the lore in general, not your personal interpretation. > Sorry, my english is not very good (just top grades, not more). What do you mean? "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

I will make a reply to the original topic posted. I have not heard anything beyond rumors of a new World of Darkness Living Card Game (LCG) or otherwise. But, one thing to consider is if it is indeed true that it is being play tested, and comes to fruition, then this could of course potentially hurt print and play. But, that is yet another speculation of which I doubt Hasbro has little say in. However, if CCP is being given a choice between a new game with FFG and print and play with VTES, the obvious better choice for a business is going to be a new game with FFG. You can argue all you want about a player base that is already installed, etc. but that won't help the truth of the matter. FFG gave a similar treatment to Netrunner, albeit it probably has more in common with the original Netrunner than a new World of Darkness game would with VTES. And lets not forget the old Netrunner community was split with the new game on the horizon. There were those in that community who said they would not play unless they could use their old cards. Or some few would only play if it was the same rules. Well, I sold all my old Netrunner cards as it was hard to acquire various cards, fewer people to play with, and generally hard to find adequate support for. And the new system was great in the LCG format. If I had never played Netrunner and approached a new game that people also used their old cards from the previous version for, I think it would simply be too much. It also is a hassle to try and reprint all the old cards. You have to think from a business perspective as well. It is much easier to attain new clientele if they don't have to struggle with old cards or a huge amount of reprints in addition to the new game. I think the new Netrunner game was an awesome way to go about things and I fully support the game. And it sounds like to me that if this rumored World of Darkness game does come to light, that it will be a slightly different game anyway. And I prefer it that way. I don't want a new game commingled with another system that honestly has a lot of baggage (drama, legalities, differing opinions, old rules) and is a mess to try and incorporate a dead game with something new, esp. if they want to make a different angle on it. That could doom the possibility of a new game. Rather making something new and letting each game be it's own thing is the best idea. And of course there is room to make new and different games based out of the World of Darkness, including living card games. Heck, FFG made X-Wing and there were various Star Wars minis games prior to it. Another decent game. And given their track record, I think FFG (or even AEG) could do well making an LCG game based on the World of Darkness. I am not skeptical and I welcome new games and support. While the consequences could be either good or bad or neither for VTES, I would like to see more people involved in the World of Darkness, even if that means it doesn't aim to help VTES out. Are you really going to be whining about a new World of Darkness LCG that barrows elements from VTES, that isn't VTES? If it isn't VTES, then continue on playing VTES. If people are bored with VTES or they like another system or game better then so be it. They are all games. And while some people are die hards, who not only support VTES, but are against anything that isn't VTES or could shrink the groups numbers, I find that line of logic quite interesting. I understand wanting a game that has gone to torpor twice to revive and carry on, but odds are if print and play does not occur then the groups numbers throughout time will simply shrink. It's basic math. And even if it does occur, how many new players will come into the fold versus a system that may be more accommodating or alluring to them? At the end of the day, VTES or any other game is simply a hobby. If you let it consume you and narrow your vision then that is your choice, but a silly one. Odds are you have put a lot of time and money into the game. And there is a rich history and uniqueness. But, you shouldn't stand in the way of potential new games that may barrow elements, reinvent, and/or offer something refreshing. Sometimes the best way to unify people is to adopt something new. A lot of games, be it board, or card games either go through changes, come out with a new system or edition, barrow elements, or even carry on as a spiritual successor or simply adopt a game design under fresh new paint. I stand open to new possibilities. And I hope the best for VTES, but I also hope that other game designers and publishers aren't afraid to present and sell their own stuff as well.

Comparing vtes and netrunner is something that looses zteam quickly. We have died and resurfaced. We have the owod as our fluff. We are a genre in and of ourselves, twofold.(horror, and the best multiplayer ccg there is) Netrunner was decidedly the weakest of the garfeild games. Rodd, you seem too sold on the lcg buisness model to see the big picture here. White wolf went to shit because they replaced thier cash cow that was the owod with the too-little-too-late nwod. Having a card game based in the owod screams bad idea, due to imbalance. Horror card games with no established fanbase is bad investing. But there is in this case wod fans. Owod, camarilla fan club types to be exact. Who would hate a crossover game that sucked. So, the nwod is much more attractive in that light. But the 3 core games, vtr, wtf,andmta all sucked, and only the ctl,ptc,and htv were awesome. Now, lets assume we get a living carx game starting with the 3 core races. It takes a shit. Now, we have these expansions that the entire project is riding on. Can you imagine settlers of catan being gerrible and useless without expansions? Magic the gathering if only mercadian masques and 6th edition were the extent of the cardpool? Zombies without cards or the helipad in the box? We are talking about a game that cant support itself. So, make a 6 splat nwod lcg, and MAYBE it will be a-OK. god knows id love a ctl cardgame. But the bottomline is i doubt they care about us, as the vtes community. The lcg isnt vtes, we have our own agenda, and a very different game. Pod doesnt mean anything to ffg, steve weick will make money in barrels regardless of some lcg that some vtes players drop$30 on between pod orders. Wotc makes nothing from ffg. They dont care. The vtes community wants a new set, not a new game. And again, you are too sold on the lcg format. Its hot for some games, where all should be even, but im not convincex the decidedly uneven worlds of darkness are right for it. If it sucks, whatever, if not, sweet, im stealing players from it. But im not that intimidated. They arent killing our game or even remaking it. Its to us what EPIC was to magic, although i wish them more luck than that. And whining? Not about the game, but about our game, and little nuances therein mostly.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > Comparing vtes and netrunner is something that looses zteam quickly. We have died and resurfaced. We have the owod as our fluff. We are a genre in and of ourselves, twofold.(horror, and the best multiplayer ccg there is) > Netrunner was decidedly the weakest of the garfeild games. > You can call VTES unique as I do. But, I'm saying my comparison is strictly done for simple reasons. An old player base whom there were still die hards playing and some who felt quite negative about a new game that did not allow use of old cards. Sound familiar? And secondly, for a strategic business decision. Being that FFG and/or CCP may well feel it could make quite a bit of money. If Netrunner was the weakest and smallest, then imagine the potential of such a collaboration with CCP.There are more people who were into the RPG and books side of the World of Darkness than those who played VTES. Make the game easy enough to get into and you can get people not only who were into WoD, but outsiders as well. So if they are looking at it that way, then maybe to them it makes business sense. Obviously it comes down to money. Netrunner may have been the weakest of the three Garfield card games (Magic, Jyhad, Netrunner). But, all garnered critical success and were profitable. Netrunner met an untimely end and still had a devout base of players. To think that they didn't even get the opportunity to come back until how many years later? VTES came back because of White Wolf. Netrunner had no one else. And when the new Netrunner launched it was sold out in minutes at GenCon in it's first appearance and consistently sells through it's new releases. Netrunner has one of the highest ratings on BoardGameGeek. I would venture to say the new player base vastly outstripped those who continued to play from the old version. Netrunner most likely has a much larger audience than VTES currently does as well. > ReverendRevolver wrote: > Rodd, you seem too sold on the lcg buisness model to see the big picture here. > I am sold on a system that allows players to get in and join without having to worry about rarity and price fluctuations. In the case of this rumor that would be an LCG. I am also for the potential of print on demand. And I am sure there are other systems that do away with rarity and accessibility issues. So it's more about having an accessible system both in terms of price and availability. > ReverendRevolver wrote: > White wolf went to shit because they replaced thier cash cow that was the owod with the too-little-too-late nwod. Having a card game based in the owod screams bad idea, due to imbalance. Horror card games with no established fanbase is bad investing. But there is in this case wod fans. Owod, camarilla fan club types to be exact. Who would hate a crossover game that sucked. So, the nwod is much more attractive in that light. But the 3 core games, vtr, wtf,andmta all sucked, and only the ctl,ptc,and htv were awesome. Now, lets assume we get a living carx game starting with the 3 core races. It takes a shit. > I am going at this from a strictly objective point of view. And I am not going to assume FFG screws something up and it's initial release is crap. Could it be fairly limited as with some LCG games? Sure, but the expansion help flesh things out or add to it. Why would I presume the initial release for a game that is strictly rumored to be in early stages of testing, to be utter crap? For sake of argument it is still a rumor and just an idea that is being thought over. As far as a fan base goes, that is not my concern for a game based in World of Darkness. For all I know they could be making their own niche WoD for a game. Or maybe they use old or maybe new. Hell if I know and no one does. They are doing well enough for Star Wars and other high class IP's. I don't think they are going to make some colossal failure unless it's for some people who have an idea in mind in how they would have done the game. You are always going to disappoint at least some people. Within WoD and it's various related context and games there is enough fractures and deviations that you are bound to not please at least a segment. > ReverendRevolver wrote: > Now, we have these expansions that the entire project is riding on. Can you imagine settlers of catan being gerrible and useless without expansions? Magic the gathering if only mercadian masques and 6th edition were the extent of the cardpool? Zombies without cards or the helipad in the box? > I assume you meant "terrible" in the context of Catan. Well, it wasn't terrible. Again, we are talking what is probably just a thought or in conceptual stages. I am not going to go with hypotheticals of how the game could fail if it's first outing is mediocre or not well received. It could equally be a well designed game that chooses it's own WoD Universe. I am sure whatever they do, they can make it work. If it all comes to pass then time will tell. And besides, who says they may not do an entirely different game that is not an LCG? For all we know the World of Darkness stamp may just be a branding to the game to get people interested and perhaps they only use basics from the Universe. No reason in speculating further on that. It's trivial at this point. > ReverendRevolver wrote: > We are talking about a game that cant support itself. So, make a 6 splat nwod lcg, and MAYBE it will be a-OK. god knows id love a ctl cardgame. But the bottomline is i doubt they care about us, as the vtes community. The lcg isnt vtes, we have our own agenda, and a very different game. Pod doesnt mean anything to ffg, steve weick will make money in barrels regardless of some lcg that some vtes players drop$30 on between pod orders. Wotc makes nothing from ffg. They dont care. The vtes community wants a new set, not a new game. > I would think that FFG cares in a broad sense about the WoD fan base and it's ancillary games. That is if it were to make some kind of game based on WoD. It's a pool to draw on potential interests and sales on. Obviously people that fall into that category are going to be more liable to buy a new WoD product than someone outside that niche. In a much more specified sense I think they would care about making a new game, borrowing unique mechanics from VTES, and drawing inspiration from WoD. Again, that is making an assumption that a card game is being tested. Hasbro/Wizards might in their viewpoint have a little cause for concern in licensing their deck mechanics if they feel a competitor may be making a card game of their own based on a Universe they would be selling a license too. It might essentially mean they have money to lose if potential customers would rather buy something completely new. We all know Hasbro/Wizards has done crazy things and CCP has also given VTES the bird in the past in search of other endeavors. All I am getting at is no one can presume to know the business motivations. So saying Hasbro/Wizards doesn't care isn't some obvious truth. In my opinion Hasbro/Wizards would not care that CCP is licensing their own IP to FFG for a different card game. And CCP would obviously prefer to have both customer bases. FFG is concerned about just their potential game and only with CCP. I see little trouble, but you never know. > ReverendRevolver wrote: > And again, you are too sold on the lcg format. Its hot for some games, where all should be even, but im not convincex the decidedly uneven worlds of darkness are right for it. > And again, I am not hard up on LCG. It's more the concepts I listed earlier. I don't think the format means a lick for however they decide to approach the split Universe of WoD. It would be interesting simply to see how they approach the divide of Old, New, or something altogether different. > ReverendRevolver wrote: > If it sucks, whatever, if not, sweet, im stealing players from it. But im not that intimidated. They arent killing our game or even remaking it. Its to us what EPIC was to magic, although i wish them more luck than that. > > And whining? Not about the game, but about our game, and little nuances therein mostly. > Who knows what will really come of all this? Maybe nothing, maybe an excellent new and different game. Maybe something mediocre. It depends on where the format of this new game goes (if it happens at all) and how much it parallels to VTES as to whether the community should ponder what ramifications that might have to it's own community. Should Print on Demand go through for VTES, then I think even if the FFG game parallels VTES in some ways, it will have much less of an impact than if Print on Demand does not work out. Should Print on Demand not come to pass then I think with another new game or even the lack their of, means some rough waters in the long run. As a gamer I hope both a new game comes out (be it board, LCG, etc.), AND Print on Demand goes official for VTES.

On a side tangent, i think ccp is waiting to see how best to have a tie in ccg or lcg for thiermmorpg. Since the big thing to base this on is wow, they may see a succesful ccg in the form of the wow ccg. Hard to argue that it is popular, and not just a flavor of the week popular, its sold less than mtg, pokemon and possibly yugioh, but i cant name anything else thats been as solid thats as new as the wow ccg. Im sure wotc hates this, since they own the arguably stronger but nearly identical IP that is dnd. The only better stablished fantasy ip is arguably lotr, which has less creative flex than dnd or wow. Now, we have wotc owning stake in vtes ip, ccp holding all the chips for a future game based on the ip as long as itdesnt mime vtes or jyhad, and thus involve wotc. We have ffg, having supposedly at garfeilds assistance relaunched netrunner, also trying to make money. Ccp is going to go with wherever they can get money, and we are easy retention, but rough acquisition. And they arent interested in us all that much, since we are an unwanted item they picked uo when they bougbt all of white wolf. What im getting at is outside of previous concerns, there are alot of eyes on this once(if ever, really) the wod mmorpg launches, but very few ppl care yet, outside of the vtes and wod niche. So all of it is either going to be really small and stay that way, or get really big or shut down hinging on the mmorpg. If worse case senario happens, they become vtes junior, shelved until who knows what happens. I think ffg bit off a big piece of mystery meat with the whole ordeal. Not even joss whedon likes. Coming into a preestablished fantasy genre where half the fans know everything and half know nothing, so why should ffg be more idealistic about tbe same flaws. We will see how it all pans out. Just based on possibilities, i remain skeptical of success in a normal small chunk lcg format and it seems unlikely tbat ffg will do a 400-600 card lcg, and more unlikely theyd hazard a ccg, when competition is stiff and mercilessly bloodthirsty in the case of wotc brands.

***** ANNOUNCEMENT ***** Thank you all for the 19 Years of playtesting Vampire: the Eternal Struggle. We appreciate the effort you have done to make the game better, by testing Liliths blessing, return to innocence, Kindred restructure and Ascendance. We like to announce that FFE will indeed release Vampire LCG. Vampire LCG will no longer be in the fictional World of Darkness® setting, but we will try to access a larger audience by use the setting described by Stephenie Meyer in her book saga Twilight. Therefor the demografic has changed from stinky, black-shirt-wearing thirtiers to glitterwearing gothicwannabe fifteen year old girls. This is what we hope are target audience will look like: www.monroenews.com/photos/2012/jul/03/772/ The core game will be released medio 2014. It will contain 5 decks. As this is now a living cardgame, you no longer have to buy boosterpacks. When you buy the game you have it all complete. From a marketing standpoint we have decided to have all cards printed 9 times, exept for a few cards. In the core game you only get 3 copies of Wake with Evenings Freshness, Blooddoll and Minion Tap. The amount of clans have been reduced to make it less complex to new players. The new clans are: Team edward, team Jacob, the clefairies, the smurfs and The Hunters. We can't imagine how thrilled you are all right now. So just hang on and wait till the first pre-order is availible. Sign out, Oortje Fantasy Flight games reprecentative PS. the new netrunnergame is awesome, and you should buy that too. Have a cold long night, Jeroen van Oort Dutch National Coördinator

*checks the date* Wow! That announcement must be true!

Like americain delivered Europa from communists nazis, this new LCG will deliver VtES from thoses infernalists setites ?

Well as long as I get to buy booster packs of glitter to throw in my opponents' faces, I'm OK with our new Vampiric pre-teen overlords! *glitter poof TO THE FACE* "Now you're Edward, and I get to look bored!" /squee-swoon

I have seen a steady stream of "leaks" keep flowing since I made this topic months ago. I am more or less sure it is true at this point as I have seen links from differing sites all seeming to be from the same content and don't contradict each other at all. Still no word from FFG them selves. Tho I have seen/heard number of insiders talk about this game any unofficially confirm it is happening more or less confirms it. Latest new I have heard is that the princes/TOs of around 5 cities have been running small play tests and have been invited to Gencon to help do demo games and run a beta tournament there. I am guessing a few of the members here have played in one of those groups at this point, can some one give at least a wink and a nob style confirm at this point?

From what I understand, FFG's playtester NDA has a clause that requires playtesters to keep mum about being playtesters, so I'm not too sure that you'll get any response to that question. Suaku Inceptor Asian Continental Championship 興っ www.youtube.com/SuakuOz

> the1andonlime wrote: > From what I understand, FFG's playtester NDA has a clause that requires playtesters to keep mum about being playtesters, so I'm not too sure that you'll get any response to that question. > Does it say anything about keeping mum about the contents of the NDA?

> Pascal wrote: > > > the1andonlime wrote: > > From what I understand, FFG's playtester NDA has a clause that requires playtesters to keep mum about being playtesters, so I'm not too sure that you'll get any response to that question. > > > Does it say anything about keeping mum about the contents of the NDA? > Now, where will I get the information to answer that question from? Suaku Inceptor Asian Continental Championship 興っ www.youtube.com/SuakuOz

Fantasy Flight Games announces Blood Bound, a game of bluffing and betrayal: www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=4245

That look like Twilight - the card game.

> Ohlmann wrote: > That look like Twilight - the card game. > Do they have foil cards? I haven't seen any mention of a link with the White Wolf IP.

"The catch? Everyone is secretly assigned an identity and clan affiliation at the beginning of the game–you can never be truly certain who is your friend and who is your foe!" "It can support up to twelve players, so gather your friends for this game of secrecy, deduction, bluffing, and betrayal!" Sounds way more like a standard boardgame than a LCG. Finnish Politics!

Which is odd, since there already was a vtr board game....... If they want a game about backatabbing and lying, why add in supernatural elements? Just call it Politicians: the game of sodomizing everyone with a pineapple. Oh well, guess theres a bigger fantasy market.....

Some peoples' fantasy is to be sodomized with a pineapple.

Sounds like a variation of the Werewolf game, with just added gimmicks and vampire theme. Not a competitor for card games.

The game is shipping this week from FFG. So should be available from distributors and game stores by next week. Finnish Politics!