First Strike vs Combat Ends got me thinking about strike phasing,so is Stutter Step the best hand strike, worst dodge or has 2 part phasing.
> [CEL] Strike: make a hand strike and dodge. This is both a hand strike and a dodge. Not usable if only hand strikes (or only dodges) are allowed. Only usable at close range. Not usable as an additional strike, and this vampire cannot use any additional strikes this round.
>
It is my understanding that cards resolve from the first words to the last. (see Rotschreck vs Psyche) That seems to imply the dodge in CEL stutter step is trumped by first strike and better.
I'll be honest a was hoping to see a hand strike that took place in the dodge phase, oh well.
Of course, I have never considered either of the above as possibility. I just assumed it was a hand strike and dodge or to be more precise dodge and do strength damage. Never have I considered the change in card text to be anything other then a clarification. I find it amusing that before the change it was playable under a Immortal Grapple and after it was not.
So the question does the dodge work against s the damage from strike; combat ends (i.e. Catatonic Fear) and the effects of first strike (i.e. Fast Hands) or not?
Oh, And WHY does combat end after Anesthetic TOUCH has been dodged? Yeah, yeah, card text.
It's a dodge and a hand strike.
It protects you as a dodge does.
It deals strength damage as a hand strike does.
> Wedge wrote:
> So the question does the dodge work against s the damage from strike;
>
It's a dodge so yes, you're protected.
> Wedge wrote:
> combat ends (i.e. Catatonic Fear)
>
It's a dodge so yes, you're protected.
> Wedge wrote:
> and the effects of first strike (i.e. Fast Hands) or not?
>
It's a dodge so yes, you're protected.
> Wedge wrote:
> Oh, And WHY does combat end after Anesthetic TOUCH has been dodged? Yeah, yeah, card text.
>
The combat ends part of Anesthetic Touch is not something against the minion, so the dodge can't protect the minion from it.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> It's a dodge and a hand strike.
> It protects you as a dodge does.
> It deals strength damage as a hand strike does.
>
> > Wedge wrote:
> > So the question does the dodge work against s the damage from strike;
> >
> It's a dodge so yes, you're protected.
>
> > Wedge wrote:
> > combat ends (i.e. Catatonic Fear)
> >
> It's a dodge so yes, you're protected.
>
> > Wedge wrote:
> > and the effects of first strike (i.e. Fast Hands) or not?
> >
> It's a dodge so yes, you're protected.
>
> > Wedge wrote:
> > Oh, And WHY does combat end after Anesthetic TOUCH has been dodged? Yeah, yeah, card text.
> >
> The combat ends part of Anesthetic Touch is not something against the minion, so the dodge can't protect the minion from it.
>
Correct.
> Ankha wrote:
> It's a dodge and a hand strike.
> It protects you as a dodge does.
> It deals strength damage as a hand strike does.
>
> > Wedge wrote:
> > So the question does the dodge work against s the damage from strike;
> >
> It's a dodge so yes, you're protected.
>
> > Wedge wrote:
> > combat ends (i.e. Catatonic Fear)
> >
> It's a dodge so yes, you're protected.
>
> > Wedge wrote:
> > and the effects of first strike (i.e. Fast Hands) or not?
> >
> It's a dodge so yes, you're protected.
>
Yes, buy why?
> Wedge wrote:
> Yes, buy why?
>
Why is CEL Stutter Step a dodge? Because it says so. "This is both a hand strike and a dodge."
Why does the "dodge" part happen before the hand strike part? Because that's what dodges do - see the CRR VI.C.2.a for details on the strike resolution: " Dodge doesn't resolve; it cancels the effect of the opposing strike on the dodging minion and non-Retainer cards on him" .
[EDIT] Why was it written "a hand strike and a dodge" rather than "a dodge and a hand strike"? I don't know. Maybe because "and a hand" doesn't sound as nice as "and a dodge" ?
The card text I posted was from this site and is likely what is official, though the most recent printing does not match.
K.O.T.
>
> [CEL] Strike: hand strike and dodge. Only usable if both strike: hand strike and strike: dodge could be chosen (individually). Only usable at close range. Not usable as an additional strike, and this vampire cannot use any additional strikes this round.
>
I don't think it was since reprinted. A substantial nerf from the final nights printing, thou I don't think anyone knew how strong it was until after Enkidu had been around a couple of years. So strike: dodge is an effect applied to the beginning of the strike phase, thank you.
> I don't think anyone knew how strong it was until after Enkidu had been around a couple of years
>
Why is it strong? It fails against IG (dodge not usable), long range (dodge not usable) and enviromental damage (dodge does not help), meaning most of common combat strategies.
Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.
> kombainas wrote:
>
> > I don't think anyone knew how strong it was until after Enkidu had been around a couple of years
> >
> Why is it strong? It fails against IG (dodge not usable), long range (dodge not usable) and enviromental damage (dodge does not help), meaning most of common combat strategies.
>
And you can't play additionals after it, which is quite important.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> And you can't play additionals after it, which is quite important.
>
You could think that this is nerfed Acrobatics, and that dodge counts as additional strike for that reason, which would anyways prohibit playing additional strikes. You still could play Quickness, though.
Quickness
[Combat] Combat
[Celerity] Celerity
[1 Blood]
[cel] Additional strike.
[CEL] As above, but this additional strike card does not count against this vampire's additional strike effect limit for this round. A vampire may only play one Quickness each round.
Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.
> kombainas wrote:
>
> > I don't think anyone knew how strong it was until after Enkidu had been around a couple of years
> >
> Why is it strong? It fails against IG (dodge not usable), long range (dodge not usable) and enviromental damage (dodge does not help), meaning most of common combat strategies.
>
Before the change in card text it was playable under IG even if you played it, the phasing was(see below) before 1st strikes and if the opponent was not ready there would be no environmental dmg.
6.4.5.
>
> Dodge. A dodge strike deals no damage, but it protects the dodging minion and his possessions (cards on him) from the effects of the opposing strike. Retainers are not protected, however. A dodge is effective at any range. A dodge protects even from the effects of a strike done with first strike. (A dodge is a strike, even though it is solely defensive. It represents the activity of the minion during that pair of strikes.)
>
not exactly the same as...
CCR:VI.C.2.
>
> NOTE: Dodge doesn't resolve; it cancels the effect of the opposing strike on the dodging minion and non-Retainer cards on him. [6.4.5]
>
Later,it was ruled dodge would protect against strike: combat ends as well, which means its phasing had to be at least equal to it. Stutter step was a dodge that dealt damage, though it could have been ruled that that was to be applied in CCR:VI.C.2.a.iii. it ever was.
All versions of Stutter Step has dodge and strength dmg (=2 hand strike) or viesa versa. The use of "and" as opposed to "with a" implies the same phasing too me.
I included Anesthetic Touch in the original post, because it seems that card text should override common sense.
> kombainas wrote:
>
> > I don't think anyone knew how strong it was until after Enkidu had been around a couple of years
> >
> Why is it strong? It fails against IG (dodge not usable), long range (dodge not usable) and enviromental damage (dodge does not help), meaning most of common combat strategies.
>
I disagree on it failing at long range
because you can play it at basic celerity for a regular dodge
it's almost like a draft-ferior! (i.e. nobody reads it)
> kombainas wrote:
>
> > And you can't play additionals after it, which is quite important.
> >
> You could think that this is nerfed Acrobatics, and that dodge counts as additional strike for that reason, which would anyways prohibit playing additional strikes. You still could play Quickness, though.
>
> Quickness
>
> [Combat] Combat
>
> [Celerity] Celerity
>
> [1 Blood]
>
> [cel] Additional strike.
> [CEL] As above, but this additional strike card does not count against this vampire's additional strike effect limit for this round. A vampire may only play one Quickness each round.
>
No, Stutter Step prohibits you from playing additional cards.
It's quite different as counting as a source of additional strike.
Name: Stutter-Step
[FN:C2, CE:PB, KMW:PG4, KoT:C/PB4]
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Celerity
[cel] Strike: dodge.
[CEL] Strike: hand strike and dodge. Only usable if both strike: hand strike and strike: dodges could be chosen (individually). Only usable at close range. Not usable as an additional strike, and this vampire cannot use any additional strikes this round.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
I am not sure Quickness neccessarily cannot played after Stutter Step. After all, it is worded in a way to specifically contradict additional strike rulings:
> Rulebook
> 6.4.3. Strike
>
> A minion cannot use more than one card or effect to gain additional strikes per round of combat.
>
Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.
> kombainas wrote:
> I am not sure Quickness neccessarily cannot played after Stutter Step. After all, it is worded in a way to specifically contradict additional strike rulings:
>
> > Rulebook
> > 6.4.3. Strike
> >
> > A minion cannot use more than one card or effect to gain additional strikes per round of combat.
> >
Quickness cannot be played after Stutter-step due to Stutter-Step's text.
> Pascal wrote:
> Quickness cannot be played after Stutter-step due to Stutter-Step's text.
>
This is LAME!
I am trying to figure out SERIOUSLY, why or where anyone would play Quickness then...
The only thing I can think of would be if you had Melisande or something? But even still you would just pack Blurs...
I am just looking for where Quickness would be cost effective that you would stock them in your deck. The only place I EVER found was following up a Stutter-step...
It's like most card games tho, when you find a cool combo, those who didn't find the combo, say "No it doesn't work like that and you can't play that" haha You know it's true.
But this is old, but I had to just comment, because I can't find where you would play quickness, over just having Blur or Lighting Reflexes...
Please let me know where this is cost effective, hand effective, and deck effective, Quickness is a cool card but...
besides following an acrobatics (which would cost 2 blood) unless you have Miller Delmardigan <or> Mitru the Hunter!
LAME now, in my neck (of the woods) <-- get it?
> rezwits wrote:
> But this is old, but I had to just comment, because I can't find where you would play quickness, over just having Blur or Lighting Reflexes...
>
> Please let me know where this is cost effective, hand effective, and deck effective, Quickness is a cool card but...
>
It's not super awesome, but imagine you want 3 additional strikes - Blur won't cut it alone, and Lightning Reflexes is 4 blood (1 cost, plus 3 for the 3 strikes). At the cost of an additional card, you could get 3 strikes for 2 blood, and you might decide you like doing that sort of thing to upset people's calculations - you might think you can survive Ransam blurring with his .44 Magnum with your 5 blood and Skin of Rock but, surprise! Of course, you might be better off playing a Target card or an ammo card.
The few decks in the TWDA including it only have 1 or 2 copies, which seems reasonable-ish.
> rezwits wrote:
> I am trying to figure out SERIOUSLY, why or where anyone would play Quickness then...
>
It's a bad card. It was only created because Jacko and Sword of Judgment were also introduced in the Sabbat set so they wanted a combat card to replicate the effect.
When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
> rezwits wrote:
> I am trying to figure out SERIOUSLY, why or where anyone would play Quickness then...
>
goratrix + infernal pact (gain celerity) + quickness = theft you out in one round for free. (ok we have pocket out of time now...)
but what if you join him with merged Menele?
quickness is one of that cards that require to think whole deck around if you want to play it. same goes for many other cards and this does not include clan cards as well. you may as well cry why do not all clans have ventrue HQ, gain pool locations or gain stealth locations. it's same idea like you would most probably not include monastre of shadows in weenie deck with average crypt of 3.5. it simply does fit only somewhere.
assholepopulation.com/
Did u saw one today?
Maybe you would consider using a couple if your deck were heavily loaded with Pursuits. If you ended up in a maneuver-weak environment, the Quicknesses would allow you to cycle the Pursuits more easily. I would think that having two Blurs in the deck would usually always be better than having two Quicknesses, however.
> Pascal wrote:
>
> > kombainas wrote:
> > I am not sure Quickness neccessarily cannot played after Stutter Step. After all, it is worded in a way to specifically contradict additional strike rulings:
> >
> > > Rulebook
> > > 6.4.3. Strike
> > >
> > > A minion cannot use more than one card or effect to gain additional strikes per round of combat.
> > >
> > >
> >
> Quickness cannot be played after Stutter-step due to Stutter-Step's text.
>
It could be ruled that Quickness can be played after Stutter-step. Stutter-step limits the number of additional strike cards, and quickness does not count limits to additional strike cards.
The rule-of-thumb is that cards can bypass the rules via card text, if a card would change the rules, then another card can bypass that card text changes.
By ruling that Quickness is not playable after Stutter-step, you are making a bad card worse at the expense of nothing.
Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.
> direwolf wrote:
>
> > Pascal wrote:
> >
> > > kombainas wrote:
> > > I am not sure Quickness neccessarily cannot played after Stutter Step. After all, it is worded in a way to specifically contradict additional strike rulings:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Rulebook
> > > > 6.4.3. Strike
> > > >
> > > > A minion cannot use more than one card or effect to gain additional strikes per round of combat.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > Quickness cannot be played after Stutter-step due to Stutter-Step's text.
> >
> It could be ruled that Quickness can be played after Stutter-step. Stutter-step limits the number of additional strike cards, and quickness does not count limits to additional strike cards.
>
> The rule-of-thumb is that cards can bypass the rules via card text, if a card would change the rules, then another card can bypass that card text changes.
>
> By ruling that Quickness is not playable after Stutter-step, you are making a bad card worse at the expense of nothing.
>
It's not a ruling, it's Stutter Step's card text.
Stutter step does not say "your additional strike's source limit (or xwhatever) is reduced by 1" (which would allow Quickness), it says you can't use any additional strike.
As a side note, I don't think it's a bad card. Cornercase yes, which is fitting for a rare.
> FrançoisV wrote:
>
> > direwolf wrote:
> >
> > > Pascal wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > kombainas wrote:
> > > > I am not sure Quickness neccessarily cannot played after Stutter Step. After all, it is worded in a way to specifically contradict additional strike rulings:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Rulebook
> > > > > 6.4.3. Strike
> > > > >
> > > > > A minion cannot use more than one card or effect to gain additional strikes per round of combat.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > Quickness cannot be played after Stutter-step due to Stutter-Step's text.
> > >
> > >
> > It could be ruled that Quickness can be played after Stutter-step. Stutter-step limits the number of additional strike cards, and quickness does not count limits to additional strike cards.
> >
> > The rule-of-thumb is that cards can bypass the rules via card text, if a card would change the rules, then another card can bypass that card text changes.
> >
> > By ruling that Quickness is not playable after Stutter-step, you are making a bad card worse at the expense of nothing.
> >
> It's not a ruling, it's Stutter Step's card text.
> Stutter step does not say "your additional strike's source limit (or xwhatever) is reduced by 1" (which would allow Quickness), it says you can't use any additional strike.
>
> As a side note, I don't think it's a bad card. Cornercase yes, which is fitting for a rare.
>
Stutter-step says you can't use additional strikes. That is a limit. Quickness says it does not count as a limit.
Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.
> direwolf wrote:
> Stutter-step says you can't use additional strikes. That is a limit. Quickness says it does not count as a limit.
>
No, Stutter-Step and Quickness refer to two different things.
1/ Rule says "A minion cannot use more than one card or effect to gain additional strikes per round of combat."
2/ Stutter-Step says "Not usable as an additional strike, and this vampire cannot use any additional strikes this round."
3/ Quickness says "this additional strike card does not count against this vampire's additional strike effect limit for this round."
Quickness addresses the limit set by the rule 1/
Stutter-Step forbids any use of additional strike. It doesn't say that it counts against the additional strike limit.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director