Simple Questions Part 1

Good afternoon, After taking some time to read through the posts of the last months I have one or two simple question: 1. Is the VEKN a legal entity? Best regards, MV

No

> MarcusVitel wrote: > Good afternoon, > > After taking some time to read through the posts of the last months I have one or two simple question: > > 1. Is the VEKN a legal entity? > I don't understand the question. Can you explain why you would ask such a question? Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> Squidalot wrote: > No > Well, I don't think it's *illegal* either. Luiz Mello Coordenador Nacional - Brasil

Legal in what regard?

I'm assuming he meant in the traditional sense of a legal entity, it's a fairly common question in business circles (e.g. the differentiation between a brand/trade and a legal company/branch/partnership etc) e.g.: simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_entity

I dunno. This whole thing sounds ominous. Especially since it was Marcus Vitel asking... you can't trust that guy.

Sorry about the delayed answer. I posted a rather lengthy explanation earlier yesterday, but it somehow did not show here. I will ytry again. Please note that i am just a veteran VTES player and VEKN member, currently in torpor. The reason for asking was that I read a lot about the possibilities of 'publishing a new expansion' and the dispute between the different fractions of the design team. I will not take sides in that discussion, but the whole situation made me wonder about the external representation of the VEKN. It seems that people representing VEKN have been in touch with different companies disussing the options for getting a fan-based expansion into print. As I have recently learned that the VEKN is not a legal entity, I considered how this external representation works. If person A approached company Z, would he or she actually be representing anyone or would that person simply be acting as person A? In the past I assume it did not matter if a person renting a venue for a tournament was a member of VEKN or not, but it seems that 'we' are engaging in business-like activities and might need some sort of legal status. What do you think? BTW, there is no reason not to trust me. I am just what you perceive I am. Trust me.

I still think hes a sabbat insurgent. I always thought the vekn was a non profit organization, but there may need to be a legal entity for some negotiations. I assumed johannes has that covered though.

The VEKN will stay separate from any business related activities as it doesn't exist for legal purposes (it's a loose collection of individuals with nominated figureheads) and as the most likely option of POD would be a pickup via DriveThru/related venture they would sort out all the contracts between themselves/wizards/ccp (I would assume), rather than the VEKN. The VEKN is just a 'pressure group' and organised play group facilitator and more recently rules and design elements have been incorporated. I imagine that the rights to set official cards/rules would go with any POD licence.

Great questions, MV. I will just state here that Johannes Walch is the Chairman of the VEKN and he is also the same person who is publicly part of an effort to bring V:TES to POD. Hugh says "The VEKN will stay separate from any business related activities...", but he has no official standing within the V:EKN as a spokesperson, though he is quite involved as UK National Coordinator and has been Playtest Coordinator. I understand the need for someone to respond, but there's only one person who can really officially provide the proper details, if any, about the true relationship between V:EKN and POD. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

Score one for the "oppressed"! Finnish Politics!

> Jeff wrote: > Great questions, MV. > > I will just state here that Johannes Walch is the Chairman of the VEKN and he is also the same person who is publicly part of an effort to bring V:TES to POD. Hugh says "The VEKN will stay separate from any business related activities...", but he has no official standing within the V:EKN as a spokesperson, though he is quite involved as UK National Coordinator and has been Playtest Coordinator. I understand the need for someone to respond, but there's only one person who can really officially provide the proper details, if any, about the true relationship between V:EKN and POD. > Not really Jeff it's fairly simple the VEKN doesn't have any legal status or £/$/€ so it can't be involved in bringing something into print directly, it can encourage someone/something else to do it for the community but it won't directly be funding or signing contracts of any sort.

Interesring. So, the vekn gets the ball rolling and at least theoretically provides material on new cards and erratad wordings, and the POD company does the rest? Wow. That feels like it would be extremely ardorous dor the printing folks. I feel maybe things like brick laying and special rrport may not need printed, just to make it ewzier for other things to be available. Just a thought though. Still VERY optamistic about POD.

> Squidalot wrote: > Not really Jeff it's fairly simple the VEKN doesn't have any legal status or £/$/€ so it can't be involved in bringing something into print directly, it can encourage someone/something else to do it for the community but it won't directly be funding or signing contracts of any sort. > Clearly. But: 1) Who is putting up the £/$/€? 2) Who stands to benefit financially from POD? 3) Did the V:EKN take an official action to support this? 4) Is there a conflict of interest among any participants? 5) Even if there is no conflict, wouldn't transparency and disclosure be "good things"(tm)? The V:EKN is a volunteer organization. Volunteers should know who is benefiting from their labor and to what end it is being used. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Jeff wrote: > 3) Did the V:EKN take an official action to support this? > > The V:EKN is a volunteer organization. Volunteers should know who is benefiting from their labor and to what end it is being used. > Isn't all of this covered by the first sentence on the home page? > "Vampire: Elder Kindred Network is the Official V:TES Players' Organization dedicated to the continued health of V:TES." > Ultimately VTES back in print is good for the game — regardless of the means. I'm just happy there's people working towards making that happen. Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook

> Jeff wrote: > 1) Who is putting up the £/$/€? > Steve Wieck. i.e. the POD company > Jeff wrote: > 2) Who stands to benefit financially from POD? > Hasbro , CCP , and the POD company > Jeff wrote: > 3) Did the V:EKN take an official action to support this? > Encourage Steve to get involved and save the game a second time? Yes. > Jeff wrote: > 4) Is there a conflict of interest among any participants? > How can there be? The interests of the V:EKN are served by having cards available. This was true while Steve Wieck was running V:EKN at White Wolf and is true while Johannes is running V:EKN with Walch & Nusser GbR. > Jeff wrote: > 5) Even if there is no conflict, wouldn't transparency and disclosure be "good things"(tm)? > What part of it did you miss?

> Jeff wrote: > The V:EKN is a volunteer organization. Volunteers should know who is benefiting from their labor and to what end it is being used. > You clearly have a chip on your shoulder on this, eh? So every VEKN member needs to get some moolah or we don't need no POD/new cards, right? Or is it just you personally that needs to lay your mitts this imaginary bread? I don't give a rat's arse whether someone will make a profit out of the possible POD/whatever cards. But I do give the said body part about the fact that new cards might be a possibility. I do understand that someone, or several someones, need to do so in order to make it happen since that is the way the world turns. If the player organization is ruining your life to the degree you need to make these continuous uncalled snides against the persons who have worked their asses off for the good of the game for free, please consider resigning from the organization so you'll save yourself all the grievance you now seem to be getting. As well as for the benefit of the rest of us who are simply tired of you and your agenda. Dead horses need not to be flogged anymore, so give it a rest willya? Finnish Politics!

MV asked some questions and the conversation opened up again. I guess you missed that part, Lonk. When the V:EKN makes this statement "9. Any submissions are considered the property of the V:EKN. No compensation. No rights." and then someone sort of from the V:EKN says, "We're not a legal entity," there's a real disconnect there. As someone who has created and continues to create V:TES related- and inspired-content, these conflicts or disconnects are directly relevant to my interests. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Jeff wrote: > As someone who has created and continues to create V:TES related- and inspired-content, these conflicts or disconnects are directly relevant to my interests. > So, you are getting ready to incorporate and sue? www.laweekly.com/2012-02-02/news/dino-m-zaffina-southern-california-darts-association/

As i recall, the context of "#9" was it appearing in a post explicitly about submitting cards for the sole purpose of trying to have the vekn consider making it a real card or the basis for one. I respect you as a player and a member of this community, however i recall johannes stating that a dramatic over-abundance of effort was being put in place to make sure none of your cards were used or any variants thereof. While plainly its going to all be vtes cards and have some common wod threads,its not supposed to be your ideas. The line you have issue with seems to be entirely unrelated to anything you have posted, since i find it unlikely that you would at this point submit ideas to be scrutenized and disected by the comunity to try submitting ideas. Just an observation.

> Jeff wrote: > MV asked some questions and the conversation opened up again. I guess you missed that part, Lonk. > And you certainly won't miss a chance to make a snide against VEKN and the active people in the organization whenever the opportunity rises, eh Kut? Finnish Politics!

> Jeff wrote: > As someone who has created and continues to create V:TES related- and inspired-content, these conflicts or disconnects are directly relevant to my interests. > How so? If you post card ideas without stating they are a submissions, they are not considered as submission and therefore V:EKN has no rights over it. I don't see how it directly affects you. For instance, I create content too, some of it is clearly submission, the rest isn't. Secondly, if someone posts a card idea and expressly states he or she relinquishes all rights over it to the "VEKN", that person implicitly acknowledges the existence of a party identified as "VEKN". (And the V:EKN organization exists, so does the forum, it's not something conceptual). Thirdly, you must be the only person to see a conflict of interest in the whole thing. Please tell us who has personal interests conflicting with some other interests (I let you define their nature because I don't see what you're talking about), how it impacts us (the players) negatively and what is illegal in that. Truth is that your interventions seem to be motivated by resentment rather than a real concern for the game. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

As I remember the question was: Is V:EKN a legal entity. Answer was negative. Question answered. Now, if you decide to discuss if V:EKN should move on to a legal non-profit organization... that might be a issue to discuss in another thread... As I see, as long as V:EKN is recognized by the players as valid team, I don't think it need to upgrade to "legal entity", that will bring legal and operational problems and expenses. As a player I support V:EKN and I want this guys to keep working. Regarding the profit of POD... As long as the street price is fair, the work is recognized (both artwork and card creation), IMO it's not an issue. BTW In the new cards both the artwork creator and the card creator (if different) should be written on the card, at least on my view.

> wesile wrote: > BTW In the new cards both the artwork creator and the card creator (if different) should be written on the card, at least on my view. > A card effect is mostly a team work, changed through beta testing, reworded for clarity etc., so it's pretty rare that only 1 single person can be accreditated as the creator (although usually the card idea originates from 1 person). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > > > wesile wrote: > > BTW In the new cards both the artwork creator and the card creator (if different) should be written on the card, at least on my view. > > > A card effect is mostly a team work, changed through beta testing, reworded for clarity etc., so it's pretty rare that only 1 single person can be accreditated as the creator (although usually the card idea originates from 1 person). > Hum... you are right. Most cards are changed by more than one element.

> Jeff wrote: > > When the V:EKN makes this statement > > "9. Any submissions are considered the property of the V:EKN. No compensation. No rights." > > and then someone sort of from the V:EKN says, "We're not a legal entity," there's a real disconnect there. > I'm suprised that no one has addressed this point that Jeff made. If VEKN is not a legal entity, then it cannot own anything. Therefore #9 is invalid. Submissions cannot become the legal property of an entity that has no legal standing. I think the IC members wrote that so that they can use submissions in their new sets without the contributors micromanaging how their submissions are used. That's understandable. They might be better covered by saying "Submissions are considered the property of Johannes Walch (or other VEKN member)". From what I can tell based on the activities of PCK, submissions to VEKN are NOT the property of VEKN.

> AaronC wrote: > If VEKN is not a legal entity, then it cannot own anything. Therefore #9 is invalid. Submissions cannot become the legal property of an entity that has no legal standing. > It is not only invalid, it is also inaccurate. If the submission was to be given to VEKN, then at some point the original author would have to stop working on it and hand it over. That's not how it works in practice: people post a first draft, discuss it, amend it, and nobody ever gets to say that the public part is final. It would be both legally clearer and closer to the intent to replace that point with "Public submissions and amendments of submissions are put in the public domain." It still ensures that the VEKN can use the ideas without hassle, it does not prevent the original author from keeping working on it on his side and it does not require the VEKN to do anything if it rejects the submission.

I'll prod the DT to get their thoughts but it seems a moot point at the moment (submission process launched post design of the first set) and the intent of the paragraph I think would still stand (that the cards could be used or a derivative used to produce a VEKN set).

> Ankha wrote: > > > Jeff wrote: > > As someone who has created and continues to create V:TES related- and inspired-content, these conflicts or disconnects are directly relevant to my interests. > > > How so? > If you post card ideas without stating they are a submissions, they are not considered as submission and therefore V:EKN has no rights over it. I don't see how it directly affects you. > > For instance, I create content too, some of it is clearly submission, the rest isn't. > > Secondly, if someone posts a card idea and expressly states he or she relinquishes all rights over it to the "VEKN", that person implicitly acknowledges the existence of a party identified as "VEKN". (And the V:EKN organization exists, so does the forum, it's not something conceptual). > Interesting. So, I've posted a lot of card ideas prior to your "submission" guidelines. I have not declared that my ideas to be official "submissions" or not. Therefore, any card Idea I've submitted to these forums are my own property. If you wish to use my property in a published set of cards, you may do so at the cost of ten copies of every card printed. If you are a publisher, PM me for my mailing address thank you. Or, you could ask nicely and buy me a taco. I like tacos. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

> direwolf wrote: > Interesting. So, I've posted a lot of card ideas prior to your "submission" guidelines. > I have nothing to do with these guidelines, why are you saying they are mine? > direwolf wrote: > I have not declared that my ideas to be official "submissions" or not. Therefore, any card Idea I've submitted to these forums are my own property. > Indeed they are. You seem a bit sarcastic, why? Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > > > direwolf wrote: > > Interesting. So, I've posted a lot of card ideas prior to your "submission" guidelines. > > > I have nothing to do with these guidelines, why are you saying they are mine? > > > direwolf wrote: > > I have not declared that my ideas to be official "submissions" or not. Therefore, any card Idea I've submitted to these forums are my own property. > > > Indeed they are. You seem a bit sarcastic, why? > I was drunk. And sarcastic. I am often drunk and/or sarcastic. I think I have a sarcasm problem. Do I need a reason? Also, you mentioned "submissions" first. I was riffing on what you said. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.