A proposition to change Lilith's Blessing and Anthelios

Hi! I have been talking about VtES and its future a bit with the people here, and one of the topics for discussion have been VEKN, its potential effect on the game and, obviously, the reprinting of the game. To have a wee comment on these topics before cutting the chase, I'll just say I'm really excited about the possible Print on Demand (POD) concept. Let's hope we'll have some news on POD as soon as possible - and let us hope it'll be positive news. Many have concearns about the lost value of cards they've just invested hundreds of euros in, and it is a valid concearn; just one that I feel is an understandable and a necessary evil at this point. Enough about that though. The follow-up conversation for our discussions usually involves the power level of the game and what could possibly be done about it after POD. This here might raise a couple of eyebrows on the forums; obviously everyone realizes there has been countless issues of non-fruitful conversation, argues and arguments about which cards could, should or might need errata, which are game breaking and all that. I personally feel that even though discussion itself might not be fruitful, or that it has not been in the past, it is not ill policy to bring points of view into public, and to those who eventually decide about the future of the game (that is, VEKN itself). If you don't want to read the whole text, here's the spoiler of my conclusion: Errata Lilith's Blessing so that it's Unique, and ban Anthelios, the Red Star, from tournaments. I'm going to discuss two issues: Lilith's Blessing and Anthelios, the Red Star, and their impact (respectively) on the game and deck build variety if POD should become reality. Before I go there a couple of potential hypothesis should be considered: how will POD affect deck building in ways not possible before, and the recent discussion about meta and bloating. We can consider it a fact that POD would enable many different deck building possibilities that were not possible before. Many very powerful, but sadly rare, cards like Villein and Enkil Cog would become common place in every players' collection. I see this as a positive change. The starting threshold for beginners would reduce significantly when the rarer, but still rather vital for tournament play, cards would become available. How does the lack of, say, Villein appear in the present tournament meta then? Arguably one of the effects of this is that many starting players attempt to play a wider take on deck archetypes, including combo, combat and wall decks. Not everyone has access to clearly more powerful vampires like Arika and Mistress Fanchon at the moment, but this will change after POD. We suspect that many of these more powerful vampires will suddenly see more tournament play. This would not matter much if not for one of the more powerful, and arguably less-interactive, of archetypes presently dominant in the game: Master Phase Action spam (MPA). Bluntly put MPA decks like Anson, Huitzliopotchli or Nana Buruku play more or less like solitaire. They have a clear dominance over the game on a single area of play - one against which there are next to no counters. A Sudden Reversal doesn't really matter at all against these kinds of decks because of the sheer amount of MPAs, as well as for one card: Anthelios. While before a well played Sudden or Wash could matter in the game, an Anthelios powered MPA deck will (almost) always be able to counter a counter against that deck. This would not be much of a problem without cards like Pentex Subversion or Golconda. These cards alone (with Anthelios) make a (non-counterable) strategy out of supportive cards. Of course there are always ways to out-play these decks, but the amount of customizability during game (when compared to, say, Necromancy, which was arguably supposed to be the deck-recursion tool for the game) outmatches everything else in the game. I do not think that was the goal of the cards or the game when these cards were printed. Ashur Tablets already enable deck recursion for MPA decks. Anthelios adds insult to injury and finally makes the decks slightly overpowered - and even if not exactly overpowered, if the rest of the table is willing to out-play the deck (on the rare occasion), they leave very little reactive opportunities for the rest of the players. This results in a loss of interest-factor within the game. With this I argue that Anthelios is not exactly needed for the game and it in fact worsenes the game in general unlike many other card. I don't think that anyone wants to see their vampires put to Pentex every turn even if it is removed. Just do the math - Anthelios in game, three master phases per turn and a Pentex in the MPA deck's Ash Heap. Even if it costs two pool for each play, the combo enables a strategy that requires very little effort, strategy and consideration in deck building - something that penalizes any other deck archetype. Lilith's Blessing is next in the line. Lilith's Blessing has been an odd bird ever since it was printed for legal play. It is doubtful it went under necessary play test, since its effects with Villein effectively results in free vampires put into play. Everyone knows how this trick works. This combo is even easier to pull off with MPA decks, which I already discussed. How will this affect the game in general, then? If basically every vampire you influence out is free, then what would be the reason to play anything else than bigger capped vampires? What would be the reason to play anything else than Villein + Lilith's Blessing for your bloat module? We cannot really answer this questions with ultimate certainty, since it is largely a question of meta. We can specualate, however. Up until now those reasons would have been, for example, the lack of required cards for the game. This threshold will (luckily) abolish with POD. The results of this might not be as positive, however. The main problem for this 'free vampire' phenomenon is Lilith's Blessing. Most of the general, and free-for-all, bloating mechanisms in the game have been always at least to a point conditional: all powerbases have a mechanism implemented within them that allow others to steal, abuse or wash off the effects of said Powerbase, The Coven travels around the table and even Lilith's Blessing has the condition of once-per-vampire and the requirement of 0 blood on the subject. However, this requirement is easily nullified by Villein. Thus, now that one card (which is already widely used in many decks) trumps the condition of Lilith's Blessing, it is left largely without a condition. To add a condition to the card for its powerful effect, I would propose a simple errata, something on the lines with what VEKN already did with Villein: make the card unique. This would make it more in line other cards with a bloat-effect. Even Coven is unique, even though it circles around the table. Players would now need to fight for the card, and the card with Villein would not be a source of main bloat anymore, but a tool for additional blood gain and keeping beat-up vampires from bloating. Arguably this might result in only certain kinds of decks playing Lilith's viably, or add an arbitrary factor to using Lilith's Blessing - a scenario where the first to draw Lilith's would gain the most of it, like Giant's Blood at the moment. It's effect alone is not that powerful, though, so the issue of chance is not as great here as with Giant's Blood. The fact is, though, that recently I have found myself starting any deck's bloat module with 5 Villein and 2 Lilith's Blessing, with a touch of Vessel or Blood doll tossed into the mix. Anything else is extra, and I'm not really even bothering much with other options anymore since that combo seems like the most valid addition to any deck anyways, even combat. The most is arguably gained by Presence voters, however. In tournament environments it is doubtful this is a desirable direction we are heading, since big-cap voters are already a dominant archetype in the scene. It is by far unbeatable, but dominant in any case. It would not be an argument valid enough if I would be the only one making these choices, but I have seen a large amount of these choices being made by our local players, as well as many players that got their decks in Tournament Winning Deck Archive (TWDA) over the past half-a-year. The main argument against these two cards and the impact they have on the game in general is not that they are broken or unbeatable. VtES still remains one of those games that play largely on player skill, table talk and politics when decks themselves are on par with each other. The problem lies in the narrowed down array of valid strategies among decks, and deck types. If the most efficient way to bloat for any kind of deck is Villein + Lilith's Blessing, and the most efficient deck type to play those with is a presence voter, and the most efficient presence voter is a MPA deck, it's really not hard to do the math which kind of a deck I should be playing with for most effect. I would rather see these two minor changes with major effects to diversify decks. Disinclusion of either card does not render any deck type unplayable, but reduces the effects of certain strategies, which are too dominant in too many kinds of decks. The varieties of which kinds of decks could be viably played would, I argue, be more diverse. Yours Petrus Makkonen Prince of Joensuu Finland Please note that this essay does not reflect the opinions of our local gaming group as a whole, but rather portrays a single opinion. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

Nicely said, i share same sentiment. But rather than changing lilith's , i am more in favor of banning it. The amount of blood that card can produce over the course of game is ridiculous, not to mention it almost completely shuts down all blood deprivations strategies, however odd or scarce they may be, and Smiling jack. Every deck seem to nowadays start with : add 2 pentex, and 2 lilith's blessings, and... Edit: or instead of banning, maybe make it so that you HAVE to find a discipline card. i would add 1 more change : ashur tablets only return minion cards

You are barking the wrong tree there, its not Lilith's Blessing that is the problem but Villein. Lilith's Blessing is fairly mediocre card on its own. And the effect of removing liliths blessing for presence voters wont be that big, they will just villein for one less then. If you really want to do something about Lilith's Blessing, then make its effect happen in the untap phase, instead of master phase, like most other blood gain stuff. Although of course then nobody would use it anymore as it would just be crappier Jake Washington that takes an mpa to use. But overall, I don't really see any problem with Lilith's Blessing. Anthelios on the other hand I would have nothing against getting the axe.

A more global change could be to remove cancelled cards from game. It would hinder washed Pentex cards from being returned to hand from any card retrival source, not to mention golconda has its built-in cancel function. I like Pendragon's suggestion about lilith's blessing also.

> Klaital wrote: > You are barking the wrong tree there, its not Lilith's Blessing that is the problem but Villein. Lilith's Blessing is fairly mediocre card on its own. > It's extremely far from being mediocre, simply because it allow you to exchange a MPA for a minion acting, by preventing a mandatory hunt. If only for that, it's powerful. Also, you conveniently forget that three blood is actually three time as much as one blood, and it does help a lot to make the minion make worthwhile things. And then again, Villein is necessary for a lot of decks to exist. So if a card make Villein overpowered, the enabling card is to be axed, not villein. Except if another card/rule existed to make 10 cap reasonably costed.

> Kraus wrote: > Lilith's Blessing is next in the line. Lilith's Blessing has been an odd bird ever since it was printed for legal play. It is doubtful it went under necessary play test, since its effects with Villein effectively results in free vampires put into play. Everyone knows how this trick works. This combo is even easier to pull off with MPA decks, which I already discussed. > > How will this affect the game in general, then? If basically every vampire you influence out is free, then what would be the reason to play anything else than bigger capped vampires? What would be the reason to play anything else than Villein + Lilith's Blessing for your bloat module? > If you remove the Lilith's Blessing from your reasoning, you get "every vampire you influence out" for 3 pool (which is cheap), and still can wonder about "the reason to play anything else than bigger capped vampires." I don't think the 3 pool difference is a big deal in the equation. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

i think it is actually a huge difference , ankha. Especially as it usually is not once per game effect. also, i watched how in heads up, a deck with 3 minions easily soaks smiling jack climbing to 5 -6-7 counters, while keeping most of its pool and all vampires operational, and win the game. All thanks to Lilith's blessing. Potential for bloodgained with that card over the course of the game can be huge. I have seen several games where lilit's blessings (3 out of 5 players had them) produced about 20 blood counters. That is huge EDIT : Upon further consideration, as i am really not fan of banning anything.... maybe anthelios can be fixed also... Something in the line of adding : Transient. and a sentence : burn this card at the end of your next discard phase. That way, everyone has one shot do replace one master before the star falls from the sky. B-)

> Kraus wrote: > Many very powerful, but sadly rare, cards like Villein... > Villein was never and is not now rare. I know not a single person that wasn't able to get a box of HTTB starters if they pre-ordered it, and those boxes were still available for two weeks after the set was made public. If a player waited to get their box, well, hopefully they learned something from that experience. Villein is also extremely popular on eBay and since so many were printed, there are plenty available for trade as well as for sale. Other than that, an excellent, well thought-out post. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

If only there were some cards which made possessing the Bahari trait a real negative side-effect... When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Ohlmann wrote: > And then again, Villein is necessary for a lot of decks to exist. > Which decks would those be? Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> KevinM wrote: > Villein was never and is not now rare. > It's flat-out wrong. On some part, especially for thoses player who weren't in torpor at the moment, they can be As of I, I had to actually order from finland and whatsnot to have 4 of them. Which is not alway enough. In my playgroup, I am the only one on seven people to actually have some of them. You can find them on ebay. At at least 5$ apiece plus whatever shipping cost, which is absurdely high for a card you can play in 7 or more in not too strange deck. So let's not say stupid thing : Villein is hard to get now, exactly like Target Vital. It's not "summon history" rare, I can agree, but it doesn't mean you can easily have enough for a deck.

I have to say that i feel liliths blessing has an effect i dont want to see vanish: fetching a skill card. If the finding of a discipline is mandatory and the vampire only gains 1-2 blood, i think it would be less of an issue. Anthelios shouldprobably be transient, i dont know the fluff, but i know its indicative of coming gehenna. Maybe its ability is only used if a gehenna card has been played since its controllers last untap? Now mmpa decks i hate. My first deck that i actually 'built' was anson combat, and 2 mpas meant tension and blood doll or fame and haven uncovered. So, annoying combos make me angry, because now i fear contestation more. Tablets should only target minioncards. Period. And each methuselah should only get to make them "go off" once a game. I think with those fixes, things would go better. My first tablets relient deck was g2 gargoyles with lots of fluid combat. I needed recursion and pool. I think minion cards, not masters should be what tablets finds. Lastly, liquidation is really only usable by mmpa decks. I think making it cost 7 cards from your deck being removed from the game if you have any liquidation in your ash heap(cumalatively) would. Return it to a last ditch pool gain as intended.

> Kraus wrote: > Changing Lilith to work in the Untap phase sounds cool, actually, and might be easy to errata with a single word, exactly like adding 'unique'. Either version would fix a whole lotta problems - the 'untap phase' clause even more so, to be honest. > The main problem is that the interesting deck based on Lillith, like the Hermana Minor deck that I have seen on a spanish TWDA, would be killed off by this, while "unique" would only affect them if Lillith stay very played after that. I tend to be on the side to force player to actually fetch a discipline card, because it's not an overwhelming nerf and it mean that Lillith need some thoughts before inclusion.

Perhaps the non-native English speakers aren't understanding what I said, so I'll make it clear. Villein is not now nor ever was rare, meaning that Villein is not now nor ever was scarce. There are always dozens of Villein for sale on eBay and at large gatherings of VTES players, such as NAC/EC/conventions, I'm going to say that yes, they are available for sale and trade. The price that is charged for them is irrelevant to their scarcity, and I'd even agree that they are now a "staple" card which could be considered "too expensive". Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> KevinM wrote: > Perhaps the non-native English speakers aren't understanding what I said, so I'll make it clear. > > Villein is not now nor ever was rare, meaning that Villein is not now nor ever was scarce. > I will say it again, as clearly : it is scarce. As a matter of fact, for everyone which wasn't actively buying products on the small windows where KoT booster were affordable, three cards are infuriatingly hard to come : Deep Song, Eye of Argus, and Villein. Villein is in this regard the worse, since it is useful for mosts decks. Saying that people have them or that they are sold on Ebay does not mean a lot of thing. I never find people willingly giving Villein away the way Carrion Crow or On the qui vive have been, and the prices on ebay are proof enough that the card is scarce.

> Kraus wrote: > @Ankha, it's a huge difference. Also, it's not 3 blood - it's actually at least 4 pool. You either Villein to 1 blood (which few people would dare to do, 'cause you need blood to do stuff), or with Lilith's villein to 0 blood, then gain 3 blood, which can be used to act, to bloat back with vessel/blood doll... It's a lot more than 3 blood, to be honest. > There's a flaw in your reasoning. Let's say you want to have a vampire (cap X) with 3 blood in the end (after playing Villein) With Lilith: you Villein for X, then gain 3 blood. Pool gain: X Without Lilith: you Villein for X-3. Pool gain : X-3 So the difference between both is really 3 pool only (for the cost of a MPA). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I'd settle for a master that says "gain 3 pool" any day of the week.

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > KevinM wrote: > > Villein was never and is not now rare. > > > It's flat-out wrong. On some part, especially for thoses player who weren't in torpor at the moment, they can be > > As of I, I had to actually order from finland and whatsnot to have 4 of them. Which is not alway enough. In my playgroup, I am the only one on seven people to actually have some of them. > > You can find them on ebay. At at least 5$ apiece plus whatever shipping cost, which is absurdely high for a card you can play in 7 or more in not too strange deck. > > So let's not say stupid thing : Villein is hard to get now, exactly like Target Vital. It's not "summon history" rare, I can agree, but it doesn't mean you can easily have enough for a deck. > In ohio, @ least, it is fairly plentiful. However, the reason for this is many players bought several httb stsrters, and villeins were traded more loosely for a time because of that. I had 2 villeins from presumeably boosters without knowing how useful it was before playing my " pair of minion taps that cost more sometimes" but found them while building a germain deck and saw they were at the time $17 on ebay. Many cards are like this currently, and i agree that villein is harder to get than other cards that are as usecul as villein. But, i dont think its increased availability will be ground breaking. Most active players on my side of the us seem to have plenty, and nothing too outlandish has come from this. Other cards, mostly combo cards, like summon history or baltimore purge will probably see a surge in popularity with pod, but i cant say what that will result in for sure. Villein being widespread is really a good thing, cards that need to stay hard to find are things like legacy of pander, which gets crazy fast. Sense depp will also see a spike in use, since many tier 3 ravnos decks are only not tier 2, tournament worthy decks due to the lack of sense dep in many collections. This im basing off of random conversations at regionals in years past as well as at the nac. On the plus side, more players will have more deep songs and eyes of argus, so they can have more decks together without moving key cards between them.

Thanks for the replies! First of all, I was aiming at subtle and concrete changes for exactly those reasons: being subtle confuses as little as possible, and concrete so that the designers wouldn't have to ponder what was the proposition. About Villein: yeah, I would've liked to see it changed when it first appeared. At the moment it has already gone through a simple and effective errata to make it reasonable again. Change in games like these, and in games as a whole, and in life as a whole, are inevitable and good. Change is good. It makes things stay alive. This is why I harbour no ill will against Villein. Lilith's, however, was a last addition to a game that was going to get killed, and possibly wasn't even meant as an addition as such. I don't really know, others might know better. Anyways, it's been here for a short time (relatively), and doing something about it would change stuff too much. Banning? Not really a realistic option here, I think. Changing Lilith to work in the Untap phase sounds cool, actually, and might be easy to errata with a single word, exactly like adding 'unique'. Either version would fix a whole lotta problems - the 'untap phase' clause even more so, to be honest. I wouldn't propose global rules changes. Only really subtle things to fix real and very concentrated problems. Adding to global rules have the danger of confusion and might create a lot of collateral damage. I'd rather hit cards - and a VERY FEW at that! @Ankha, it's a huge difference. Also, it's not 3 blood - it's actually at least 4 pool. You either Villein to 1 blood (which few people would dare to do, 'cause you need blood to do stuff), or with Lilith's villein to 0 blood, then gain 3 blood, which can be used to act, to bloat back with vessel/blood doll... It's a lot more than 3 blood, to be honest. @Kevin, Villein is rare. Sad but true. Starting players here need to pay roughly $10 in ebay for a single Villein, or play Minion Taps. And, honestly, Villein is by far superior in many cases. I think we all agree on that. And before we go to the argument over newcomers and if they're fiction or not; no, they're real in this town. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

Also for all of this to happen, you need to actually draw your lilith's blessing and waste one turns mpa and a pool playing it. And to get it early reliably you need to play quite a few copies, the extras which will be dead draws later in the game. Most of the liliths blessing is too good arguments tend to assume you always get it to starting hand.

> Klaital wrote: > Most of the liliths blessing is too good arguments tend to assume you always get it to starting hand. > Which mean Lillith is even worse for the game. Like Giant blood, the problem is not that it will make you win every game. It's that, from time to time, it will make you gain 8 or 11 pool for next to nothing, and that's way too much even for something unreliable. Of course, unlike Giant Blood, it tend to be very useable even when you draw it late, because a MPA for a minion action (by avoiding a mandatory hunt) is something that can win games. (which make me think that uniqueness on Lillith may well not change thing that much, since it's not that often played in more than x1)

Just checking: does everybody know that you don't shuffle your deck after using Lilith's Blessing? I can't remember if it's been discussed on the forum, and I was surprised when someone pointed it out to me. I guess Lilith gives you perfect knowledge of the future along with 3 blood and a skill card.

> AaronC wrote: > Just checking: does everybody know that you don't shuffle your deck after using Lilith's Blessing? I can't remember if it's been discussed on the forum, and I was surprised when someone pointed it out to me. > Under general rulings: "If an effect causes you to search your library or crypt, shuffle that deck afterward" Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook

I don't know who told you you don't shuffle, but they were wrong. You shuffle after any search effect. > General wrote: > If an effect causes you to search your library or crypt, shuffle that deck afterward. [LSJ 20040518] > -- National Coordinator South Africa

I would ban all promo cards from tournament play that do not have an identical non-promo version. Also, ban any of the 10th Anniversary Set only cards (from tournament play). The problem with concentrating on a card here or a card there is that there are a host of cards that contribute to annoying play but not play that is so degenerate that the game lacks reasonable levels of balance, variety, and fun. So many that you could just as easily leave them all alone and let them tussle with each other. After all, one person's LB is another person's Villein is another person's Ashur Tablets is another person's Carlton is another person's Voter Cap is another person's Parity Shift is another person's Anthelios is another person's The Unmasking is another person's Imbued is ... Traveller Card Game

It is true that Lilith meddles with many strategies. Combat ? "hey, get me out of torpor, i'll lilith myself up" attrition ? "it's ok, i'll get some blood during my untap" smiling jack ? "i can survive for like 3 or 4 turns without spending a single pool until I find/negociate a solution" And if there is no strategy to meddle with, then it's 3 to 9 pool gain from a single master every single game. Yes, I hate lilith. Yet I am forced to play with it, since it's the only way to keep up with others more competitive decks I see around. Please do something. Make it unique ? So it can be contested ? Make a master card mandatory, so it requires some intelligent deckbuilding ? Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> Ohlmann wrote: > As a matter of fact, for everyone which wasn't actively buying products on the small windows where KoT booster were affordable, three cards are infuriatingly hard to come : Deep Song, Eye of Argus, and Villein. > You know all three cards you mentioned were in HttB pre-con right? Especially Villein, which was in all the pre-con IIRC. If you chose not to get the HttB starters because "I don't like them for <insert reason>", then you really have no cause to be complaining. However, I will admit that for players that come in after HttB, the process of acquiring these cards is infuriatingly difficult. Villein is not scarce if you can pay upwards of $10 for each, or have access to large player bases with sufficient quantities to trade, but not everyone can do so. Suaku Inceptor Asian Continental Championship 興っ www.youtube.com/SuakuOz

> Reyda wrote: > It is true that Lilith meddles with many strategies. > Combat ? "hey, get me out of torpor, i'll lilith myself up" > attrition ? "it's ok, i'll get some blood during my untap" > smiling jack ? "i can survive for like 3 or 4 turns without spending a single pool until I find/negociate a solution" > All you say is also true with a classical hunting ground. HG gives only 1 blood, but each turn, with no condition, and it doesn't cost a MPA (and it works during the untap so it screws Society of Leopold, Derange etc.) I think most people are impressed by the Villein combo, but on the long run, HG is more consistent and creates more blood. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

@Ankha : except it's significantly slower, more expensive to put on the table, and more importantly less front loaded. A vampire with three blood can immediatly do a govern + conditionning, and then still have a blood for OtQV + Deflection, for example. With an hunting ground, you need a lot of time to make that. > the1andonlime wrote: > You know all three cards you mentioned were in HttB pre-con right? Especially Villein, which was in all the pre-con IIRC. If you chose not to get the HttB starters because "I don't like them for <insert reason>", then you really have no cause to be complaining. > No, I didn't get any because I wasn't active at the time, and when I restarted VtES, only one shop in the whole world still proposed them.

While I would have no problems at all with the suggested changes to Liliths and Anthelios, I still think that Ashur Tablets is a larger problem. I'm not convinced that saying that the tablets could only target minion cards would be a good enough fix for that card, I'd rather see that card recursion was kept as a trick available only for -users..

> wastaz wrote: > I'd rather see that card recursion was kept as a trick available only for -users.. > This. Maybe Ashur tablet are not overpowered. But playing with them is like playing another game, since you can actually adapt your deck content to the situation

> Jeff wrote: > If only there were some cards which made possessing the Bahari trait a real negative side-effect... > Yes truly a great design methodology Jeff - which is why the overwhelming majority didn't like it.

> Jeff wrote: > If only there were some cards which made possessing the Bahari trait a real negative side-effect... > > Squidalot wrote: > Yes truly a great design methodology Jeff > There are three ways to address problem cards that already exist: 1) Ban them 2) Change them 3) Create new cards that interact with them. By most accounts on this thread, Lilith's Blessing is a problem. Choice #3 is a great design methodology. In fact, it is the most commonly used one. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Jeff wrote: > By most accounts on this thread, Lilith's Blessing is a problem. Choice #3 is a great design methodology. In fact, it is the most commonly used one. > So great and so commonly used that the VEKN is strictly against it. A card that work only against Lillith is a trashy idea. If Bahari was an expanded trait similar to black hand or red list this would work. But there is more than enough thematics that were only half done, so no need to add a 1/16 done one.

> Jeff wrote: > There are three ways to address problem cards that already exist: > > 1) Ban them > 2) Change them > 3) Create new cards that interact with them. > > By most accounts on this thread, Lilith's Blessing is a problem. Choice #3 is a great design methodology. In fact, it is the most commonly used one. > 4/ Update the Rules (in the case of lilith's blessing, make Bahari Independent, for instance) Define "great". Pentex is a pain for many decks. Shadow of Taint is one of the best ways to deal with Pentex. Shadow of Taint clearly isn't "great". Contesting Pentex looks stronger.

> Pascal wrote: > 4/ Update the Rules (in the case of lilith's blessing, make Bahari Independent, for instance) > > Define "great". Pentex is a pain for many decks. Shadow of Taint is one of the best ways to deal with Pentex. Shadow of Taint clearly isn't "great". > > Contesting Pentex looks stronger. > Yes, very clearly 4/ is a solid option. I think it can be one of the best ways to improve and reinvigorate the game. Your creation of "ballots" to address the game mechanics issues with the Priscus Block was a very good clarification of the rules. I have also proposed various rules changes over the years--the "Kuta" Transfer Rule, extra options for burning the Edge, and most recently removing crypt cards from the game to gain pool--which are an attempt to solve what I see as global metagame issues or to provide more subtle options to make the game more fun and interesting. I only used the word "great" in the same respect that Hugh originally did. I strongly believe that new cards can be created to address problems in the game. That's why I do it. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Jeff wrote: > I strongly believe that new cards can be created to address problems in the game. That's why I do it. > There's a spectrum on how specifically a new card tries to rein in an old. The more specific, generally the worse the card's effect on the game. I quite detest cards intended to hose problems in the game, preferring to either deal with the problem by removing it or changing the metagame in far more subtle ways. Ideally, new cards get created which have a side effect of reducing the value of old power, rather than specifically trying to curb old power. I particularly like the idea of upgrading old weakness so that the power gap is smaller, possibly so that old weakness becomes new power. After all, relative strength is the only thing that actually matters - a fight broken with broken environment can be a lot of fun, see the Wheel of Time CCG after its first expansion. Traveller Card Game

> Ankha wrote: > > > Reyda wrote: > > It is true that Lilith meddles with many strategies. > > Combat ? "hey, get me out of torpor, i'll lilith myself up" > > attrition ? "it's ok, i'll get some blood during my untap" > > smiling jack ? "i can survive for like 3 or 4 turns without spending a single pool until I find/negociate a solution" > > > All you say is also true with a classical hunting ground. HG gives only 1 blood, but each turn, with no condition, and it doesn't cost a MPA (and it works during the untap so it screws Society of Leopold, Derange etc.) > I think most people are impressed by the Villein combo, but on the long run, HG is more consistent and creates more blood. > When I see comments about how narrowly useful LB is, I wonder if people have played with the card in a variety of decks. As much as LB + Villein may rock the world, a frequent problem with my decks was attrition to the point where I could survive but not oust in the late game. LB solves that problem like nothing else. It is so easy to get key use out of it because it isn't like a HG. HGs mostly suck because they are far too narrow and costly, being quickly low returns on investment as the game progresses. I just don't see the similarity between the two. A HG's value is largely determined by time. LB's value is largely determined by number of vampires (that are legal targets). Traveller Card Game

> ICL wrote: > When I see comments about how narrowly useful LB is, I wonder if people have played with the card in a variety of decks. > I tried it out in several first drafts of deck lists. It was usually the first to go after testing and refinement. Currently, they're only in some casual decks that care about Discipline masters. > As much as LB + Villein may rock the world, a frequent problem with my decks was attrition to the point where I could survive but not oust in the late game. LB solves that problem like nothing else. It is so easy to get key use out of it because it isn't like a HG. > What do you do if you don't draw LB? Play a deck that runs out of gas? Or do you play more than one LB and get dead draws when you need ousting power? I feel this is the central problem with LB: if you rely on it you have to shoot yourself in the foot with dead cards, if you don't rely on and leverage it it's outclassed by other masters.

Well, the thing here is that no deck requires LB to work. If you don't draw it, you just make your first villeins for a little less. When you do draw it, though, it starts paying itself back tenfold pretty quickly. It makes already powerful decks even better, while making mediocre decks only better. If so many people are saying they find LB very powerful as well, it must have some truth to it. What comes to HG vs LB discussion, I'm not even going to touch that really. They are so different in how they work or are used. Both give blood, yes, but that's basically where the (non-semantic) similarities end. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

> Kraus wrote: > Well, the thing here is that no deck requires LB to work. If you don't draw it, you just make your first villeins for a little less. When you do draw it, though, it starts paying itself back tenfold pretty quickly. It makes already powerful decks even better, while making mediocre decks only better. > In which case it's not as good as some other masters (plural) I'd like to play. > If so many people are saying they find LB very powerful as well, it must have some truth to it. > Better players than me have found it not good enough for tier 1 decks. The TWDA and personal experience seems to corroborate to some degree. In this case, my intuition says that many people are evaluating LB incorrectly.

How so TWDA? In 2011 of 258 TWD entries, 59 had Lilith's Blessing, not quite 25%. Thus far in 2012 of 190 TWD entries, 62 had Lilith's Blessing, almost 33%. I'm not on a campaign here to change the card, but it is pretty powerful and significantly trending toward more widespread inclusion. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Jeff wrote: > How so TWDA? > > In 2011 of 258 TWD entries, 59 had Lilith's Blessing, not quite 25%. > Thus far in 2012 of 190 TWD entries, 62 had Lilith's Blessing, almost 33%. > > I'm not on a campaign here to change the card, but it is pretty powerful and significantly trending toward more widespread inclusion. > Hence "to a degree".

> Suoli wrote: > Better players than me have found it not good enough for tier 1 decks. The TWDA and personal experience seems to corroborate to some degree. In this case, my intuition says that many people are evaluating LB incorrectly. > I'll just have to disagree here, then. Of course my experience with the card is obviously limited, as is my experience with the whole game. I didn't attend the European Championships for example (even though I qualified). I have seen, however, LB power up many already powerful decks and trump stuff that were supposed to be game changing, like blood denial and Smiling Jack. It also hits combat real bad, which I presume many don't see necessary: torporizing a vampire easily becomes indifferent when the rescued vampire tops up 3 blood instead of being forced to hunt. But yeah, the ideas in my first post are my own, and obviously subjective. It's okay to disagree. It's up to the design team to do something about them if they deem it necessary. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

> Kraus wrote: > Well, the thing here is that no deck requires LB to work. > www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?deck=view&id=9000 There is. The aforementioned deck fall apart without LB, and I believe it's an interesting deck, while frustrating for its victims.

> Kraus wrote: > I'll just have to disagree here, then. Of course my experience with the card is obviously limited, as is my experience with the whole game. I didn't attend the European Championships for example (even though I qualified). I have seen, however, LB power up many already powerful decks and trump stuff that were supposed to be game changing, like blood denial and Smiling Jack. It also hits combat real bad, which I presume many don't see necessary: torporizing a vampire easily becomes indifferent when the rescued vampire tops up 3 blood instead of being forced to hunt. > Eh how do you do that since the vampire needs to be A) ready and B) empty on your master phase to be legal target for lilith's blessing, and if you rescue it on your turn it is neither.

It doesn't have to hunt if it is rescued tapped. I recently played a game in which my predator got to use LB on his Alastored Brujahs because they were either blocked and sent to torpor then rescued on his turn or rescued cross-table. I had a combat deck, and it wasn't easy to send those suckers to torpor when they came in to rush me. LB just undid my work. I like the idea of Baharis being independent. That would really hurt a lot those fatty decks that don't need the help anyway. Now if they became independent AND had to have a skill card, even better.

> Klaital wrote: > > > Kraus wrote: > > I'll just have to disagree here, then. Of course my experience with the card is obviously limited, as is my experience with the whole game. I didn't attend the European Championships for example (even though I qualified). I have seen, however, LB power up many already powerful decks and trump stuff that were supposed to be game changing, like blood denial and Smiling Jack. It also hits combat real bad, which I presume many don't see necessary: torporizing a vampire easily becomes indifferent when the rescued vampire tops up 3 blood instead of being forced to hunt. > > > Eh how do you do that since the vampire needs to be A) ready and B) empty on your master phase to be legal target for lilith's blessing, and if you rescue it on your turn it is neither. > Sorry, I should've said "When others help you with rescues". This is a scenario I meant. Bahari being independent is a cool idea, to be honest. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

a skill card? UDHR18/19/27

> Kraus wrote: > Bahari being independent is a cool idea, to be honest. > UDHR18/19/27

> a skill card? > Skill card = Discipline card Advocate of Good-looking Deck Posts pulledfangs.blogspot.com :vtes: Manila V:tES

I agree with Suoli - LB is not worth for most of the decks because to use it cost's an MPA. You could auto-include one of them in every deck, but most of the time having a hunting ground is more robust option. I think, that LB effect indeed is strong, especially if your deck focuses solely on it. That also means, that you don't have many other effects outside of pool/blood gain. If LB would be changed one way or another, I wouldn't use it in any decks. I like Jeff Kuta's suggestion to invent a card that interacts with LB (or rather, bahari), for example: Curse of the Bahari Action Modifier +X bleed, where X is the number of bahari vampires controlled by a Metusaleah you are bleeding. If this vampire is bahari +1 bleed. (You gain +X bleed for each bahari vampire your target controls and additional +1 bleed if the vampire using this card is a bahari). Solution would both encourage and discourage use of Lilit's blessing, would solve to an extent free blood (pool) from Lilith's Blessing and would be always usable, giving some boost to bahari. ---- Banging trashcans, breaking windows We'll wake you up tonight We like the good time, we scream and shout And that's what fun's about

How about: Just a matter of time: Type: event During each Methuselah's discard phase they may place a taint counter on a ready bahari as a discard phase action. When a vampire has three counters, they burn and the vampire becomes infernal.

Wouldn't the least-invasive fix to both cards be to define Bahari so as to make it incompatible with Villein?

> brm130 wrote: > Wouldn't the least-invasive fix to both cards be to define Bahari so as to make it incompatible with Villein? > As has been suggested, it could trigger during your untap. Then, you would need to have played a villein/minion tap in addition to a vessel the previous turn to make it go off with masters. This would limit its effectiveness to girls decks. I feel the skill card being mandatory is the strongest fix.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > I feel the skill card being mandatory is the strongest fix. > Hmmm, not bad really! Finnish Politics!

New rule. - Bahari : Bahari is a trait of some vampires the world of darkness who chose to participate in occult activities. They become the pariah in exchange of great influence and evolution of disciplines. Bahari are independant, red list and cannot cast votes or ballots during any referendum. Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

Thats a bit harsh, nobody would play the card anymore after that.

> Reyda wrote: > Bahari are independant, red list and cannot cast votes or ballots during any referendum. > Beast and Enkidu approve this message. > Klaital wrote: > Thats a bit harsh, nobody would play the card anymore after that. > Bahari is for combat. B-)

The least messy fix not requiring errata or card text migrations is obviously to define the Bahari keyword in the rulebook and give them some sort of downside. Independent is a good start.

> Klaital wrote: > Thats a bit harsh, nobody would play the card anymore after that. > It became an emergency card a lot more costly. They again, even in non combat deck, it can allow your ex-Inner Circle to bleed for 8 instead of hunting. One more minion action can do all the difference.

> Izaak wrote: > The least messy fix not requiring errata or card text migrations is obviously to define the Bahari keyword in the rulebook and give them some sort of downside. > > Independent is a good start. > I don't mind it being a defined keyword. But I suspect that people 'had plans' for Bahari, but due to business concerns they were never finished. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > But I suspect that people 'had plans' for Bahari, but due to business concerns they were never finished. > I suspect that you over-estimate the storyline creators significantly. LSJ didn't have any plans for Bahari.

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > Klaital wrote: > > Thats a bit harsh, nobody would play the card anymore after that. > > > It became an emergency card a lot more costly. > > They again, even in non combat deck, it can allow your ex-Inner Circle to bleed for 8 instead of hunting. One more minion action can do all the difference. > And exactly why would you use liliths blessing instead of jake washington in this case?

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > KevinM wrote: > > Perhaps the non-native English speakers aren't understanding what I said, so I'll make it clear. > > > > Villein is not now nor ever was rare, meaning that Villein is not now nor ever was scarce. > > > I will say it again, as clearly : it is scarce. > > As a matter of fact, for everyone which wasn't actively buying products on the small windows where KoT booster were affordable, three cards are infuriatingly hard to come : Deep Song, Eye of Argus, and Villein. Villein is in this regard the worse, since it is useful for mosts decks. > > Saying that people have them or that they are sold on Ebay does not mean a lot of thing. I never find people willingly giving Villein away the way Carrion Crow or On the qui vive have been, and the prices on ebay are proof enough that the card is scarce. > This is bad logic. Price does not define scarcity, because the price of a thing is not necessarily driven by the scarcity of a thing. example: Anyone can obtain a dozen -- or a hundred -- Villein in the next 24 hours. Therefore, Villein is not scarce. So: Villein is a "staple" card. Villein is expensive for a VTES card. Villein likely costs too much for players to enjoy the game. Villein is not rare or scarce, since there are at least dozens, if not hundreds, available for purchase and trade at any given time. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> KevinM wrote: > This is bad logic. Price does not define scarcity > You're right : it's scarcity that define price, not the other way around. Especially in something like e-bay. Capitalism (ho !) explain that very well, so Villein are scarce, unlike, say, Dead Eye, which everyone have enough for its use.

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > KevinM wrote: > > This is bad logic. Price does not define scarcity > > > You're right : it's scarcity that define price, not the other way around. Especially in something like e-bay. Capitalism (ho !) explain that very well, so Villein are scarce, unlike, say, Dead Eye, which everyone have enough for its use. > What he said. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

Regarding Villein and Scarcity (which is kind of way off topic on this thread now): From dictionary.com: scar·ci·ty [skair-si-tee] noun, plural scar·ci·ties. 1. insufficiency or shortness of supply; dearth. 2. rarity; infrequency. Let's concentrate on definition #1. * Villein was an Uncommon in KoT and found 2 per precon in HttB * Villein is roughly valuated at $10 per card on eBay. * This is more than the cost of a single HttB starter. * If a single item from any collection is worth more than the initial value of the collection, then clearly there was/is a shortness of supply. * So, Villein is scarce. Seems to me KevinM may have definition #2 in mind when thinking more about scarcity in this context. I agree there are many individual Villeins in circulation, but not nearly enough to meet demand (as the eBay price of Villein indicates). When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Klaital wrote: > > > Ohlmann wrote: > > > > > Klaital wrote: > > > Thats a bit harsh, nobody would play the card anymore after that. > > > > > > > > It became an emergency card a lot more costly. > > > > They again, even in non combat deck, it can allow your ex-Inner Circle to bleed for 8 instead of hunting. One more minion action can do all the difference. > > > And exactly why would you use liliths blessing instead of jake washington in this case? > because Jake may stand on the table for a long time before use and during all that time he can be stolen. Because Jake is unique and can also be contested. Because Jake goes to the ash heap after use. ( yes, I know about the anthelios tricks, thanks but no thanks ) Lilith, on the other hand, is just put on the table any given turn and nothing can happen to that card. It's an invulnerable hunting/Jake (or washington/grounds) card. I just traded all my Jakes to other players, because I no longer played with them. Why bother ? Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

I use Jake Washington quite a lot more often than Lilith's Blessing. He is something you can toss to pretty much any deck and he will be useful. Lilith's Blessing requires two MPAs and a pool before it does anything at all, if your so worried about villein + lilith's blessing, then just pack lot of suddens and sudden those villeins and that lilith's blessing wont do much good.

> Klaital wrote: > I use Jake Washington quite a lot more often than Lilith's Blessing. > That's a good argument. But I use Lilith's blessing quite a lot more often than Jake. I guess that makes us even ? > He is something you can toss to pretty much any deck and he will be useful. > if i cannot intercept the "steal" action or if i cannot withstand a long contest, if i have no way to put him back in play once i used it, should i put him in my deck anyway ? Because All those problems vanish when I put lilith's blessing on the table instead. > Lilith's Blessing requires two MPAs and a pool before it does anything at all, if your so worried about villein + lilith's blessing, then just pack lot of suddens and sudden those villeins and that lilith's blessing wont do much good. > Jake requires to be put on a table, and vulnerable to stealing - which means he can benefit an other player instead of me, that's à 8 blood swing against me, and Jake can be used only once. (same arguments, but admit they are good ) Oh, and of course, when I pack lots of sudden, I have less to no room for poolgain and can hardly sudden 2 cards a turn, believe me. But I am ok with your opinion. I have traded/sold my Jakes anyway, and have no regrets about it. Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> Jeff wrote: > I agree there are many individual Villeins in circulation, but not nearly enough to meet demand (as the eBay price of Villein indicates). > I can get, literally, 100 or more Villein in the next 24 hours. I asked around, did a little polling, and very, very few players said that they'd not sell me lots of Villein for {some amount of monies}. To keep mis-defining "demand", "scarcity", "rare", "not nearly enough" and other phrases like it make me sad, because they only make players believe that Villein aren't available, when they clearly are. And then they don't look on eBay, don't ask around, don't get Villein, and eventually get frustrated with the entire situation when they don't need to be. I'm exiting this now, and thanks for the support, Jeff Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> KevinM wrote: > > > Jeff wrote: > > I agree there are many individual Villeins in circulation, but not nearly enough to meet demand (as the eBay price of Villein indicates). > > > I can get, literally, 100 or more Villein in the next 24 hours. I asked around, did a little polling, and very, very few players said that they'd not sell me lots of Villein for {some amount of monies}. > > To keep mis-defining "demand", "scarcity", "rare", "not nearly enough" and other phrases like it make me sad, because they only make players believe that Villein aren't available, when they clearly are. and then they don't look on eBay, don't ask around, don't get Villein, and eventually get frustrated with the entire situation when they don't need to be. > > I'm exiting this now, and thanks for the support, Jeff > This argument has turned to being about semantics. Against kevin, yes, im sure it is hard for anyone who didnt buy several httb precons or at least a box of kot boosters to have acquired villeins without trading cards that they would have preferred hanging on to, or some amount of currency for them. Same with deep song, eyes of argus, and to a lesser extent, rego motus. They are hard to get cards that were staples within a year of first being printed and thus everyone wanted/wants a stockpile. They were only reprinted twice and the game went out of print. Id lime to have more myself. Of all 3 Such cards. But they are not scarce currently. Anyone who wants them can buy them ir trade for them. Monetarily, i think villeini worth $10 and liquidation~$20-$17. But players who need the latter will normally trade 2 villein and a few cheaper cards to acquire liquidations. Pod will solve this issue, but id call villein a sought after card rather than scarce, since the price doesnt rival things that are very scarce, like sirens lure or charisma. In fact, the one or two per box cards like preturnatural strength, summon history, or unmasking (cog was harder to get from what ive been told) are scarce. By the definitions provided, villein was less scarce. Its valuable, but was when kot was still in print, so im not seeing the problem acquiring it. Its less than charisma. Would someone trade me a charisma for a villein? Just curious. Other topic: jake is way harder to get than liliths, and jake can block. Ive never owned him, never underestimate mr washington. He is borderline too good, but if he were as readily available as LB he would be the topic of this argument. I think ill post what i think to be more fair versions of all debatex cards soon, to be flamed as you all want, or agreed with.

@Reyda: What makes Jake so good compared to lilith's is the flexibility. You can either get back 4 blood when in a pinch or you can use him to chump block a key rush or more importantly, he can still block bleeds made with daring the dawn. For pure blood generation maybe they're comparable but that's not the whole picture. At least in my experience/opinion, Jake is the better card. Lidingö Scourge

> Louhi wrote: > @Reyda: What makes Jake so good compared to lilith's is the flexibility. You can either get back 4 blood when in a pinch or you can use him to chump block a key rush or more importantly, he can still block bleeds made with daring the dawn. For pure blood generation maybe they're comparable but that's not the whole picture. At least in my experience/opinion, Jake is the better card. > it is also unique and usable only once

> Pendargon wrote: > > > Louhi wrote: > > @Reyda: What makes Jake so good compared to lilith's is the flexibility. You can either get back 4 blood when in a pinch or you can use him to chump block a key rush or more importantly, he can still block bleeds made with daring the dawn. For pure blood generation maybe they're comparable but that's not the whole picture. At least in my experience/opinion, Jake is the better card. > > > it is also unique and usable only once > Nothing prevents you from playing many Jakes if you expect to use the blood gain ability quickly. Like I had 3 or 4 in my Ravnos Tumnimos swarm deck.

More importantly since we are talking balance : it can be interacted with, since it's a rushable unique ally without combat skill.

the easiest and most elegant solution is to ban lilith's blessing. As I heard it's wasn't tested at the time of release and it's stricly overpowered, especially when combined with villein

> Pascal wrote: > > > Jeff wrote: > > There are three ways to address problem cards that already exist: > > > > 1) Ban them > > 2) Change them > > 3) Create new cards that interact with them. > > > > By most accounts on this thread, Lilith's Blessing is a problem. Choice #3 is a great design methodology. In fact, it is the most commonly used one. > > > 4/ Update the Rules (in the case of lilith's blessing, make Bahari Independent, for instance) > Personally I would favour 4/ but making anyone with the Bahari trait Red List. The immediate consequence would be making them vulnerable to red list rush and also empowering trophy strategies (at least for a while, people would start thinking twice about Villeining their 10cap and going Bahari if they were suddenly vulnerable to rush for cavorting with Lilith). [EDIT: A more careful reading of this thread reveals that Reyda has already suggested that Bahari are Red List (albeit also Independent and unable to vote). However, I would contend that Red List alone is more than sufficient and balances out fairly well with the benefit of gaining three blood and a master card; moreover, becoming Independent won't bother a great many vampires and might even be exploited as a benefit in certain cases, while Red List is detrimental to a far more larger set of vampires than becoming independent alone.]

Ban 'em. It's the cleanest solution.

Another solution could be to leave as is but introduce other cards that have some nasty consequences: Just a matter of time Type: Event, transient Put this card in play with 5 (10?) counters. Each methuselah must remove a counter from this card during their discard phase. While this card has no counters all bahari minions are also infernal. That'll teach people to play liliths blessing! Without being an immediate counter. Once infernal it's easier to make them red list if required (see 'Public enemy' action)

Banning Lilith’s Blessing is admittedly the simplest solution, but it’s eliminating a card with an interesting – albeit very powerful – effect in the game and also a trait that was meant to have some meaningful effect in the future. Printing cards to interact with Lilith’s directly is problematic at (a) the level of testing and getting cards printed at this moment in time and (b) for all of the well-rehearsed reasons against having to include more card hosers in a deck to counteract particular card effects. As the card stands Liliths’s Blessing has (a) introduced a powerful effect into the game, that (b) interacts very powerfully with certain other cards (e.g. villein) and (c) has also created a trait that is currently meaningless. The simplest resolution to me seems to be to make the trait meaningful, in the game and specifically the rulebook, in a manner that gives the powerful card effect an immediate downside and also interacts with certain other currently existing cards and strategies. Hence my suggestion of all Bahari are automatically on the Red List. This would be thematically justifiable and also empowers currently existing cards and strategies that are underpowered (i.e. Trophies); one might even start thinking about playing cards like Priority Shift in decks or else including Trophies in none Trophy focused decks, simply based on the likelihood of seeing the accursed Lilith-loving Bahari on the table.

> Banning Lilith’s Blessing is admittedly the simplest solution, but it’s eliminating a card with an interesting – albeit very powerful – effect in the game and also a trait that was meant to have some meaningful effect in the future. > This not true. At no point was the intent to have Bahari actually mean something in the gane. Lilith's Blessing was spawned by a trainwreck of a storyline event and for some reason made standard constructed legal as well. (supposedly because all earlier storyline cards were either unplayable trash or narrow enough to never have an impact and thus were added to the legal cards pool without further consequences).

> Izaak wrote: > > > Banning Lilith’s Blessing is admittedly the simplest solution, but it’s eliminating a card with an interesting – albeit very powerful – effect in the game and also a trait that was meant to have some meaningful effect in the future. > > > This not true. At no point was the intent to have Bahari actually mean something in the gane. Lilith's Blessing was spawned by a trainwreck of a storyline event and for some reason made standard constructed legal as well. > Ah well, that was admittedly speculative and charitable of me. I simply could not imagine a trait being introduced into the game and then having no functionality whatsoever.

> Temporis wrote: > As the card stands Liliths’s Blessing has (a) introduced a powerful effect into the game, that (b) interacts very powerfully with certain other cards (e.g. villein) and (c) has also created a trait that is currently meaningless. The simplest resolution to me seems to be to make the trait meaningful, in the game and specifically the rulebook, in a manner that gives the powerful card effect an immediate downside and also interacts with certain other currently existing cards and strategies. Hence my suggestion of all Bahari are automatically on the Red List. This would be thematically justifiable and also empowers currently existing cards and strategies that are underpowered (i.e. Trophies); one might even start thinking about playing cards like Priority Shift in decks or else including Trophies in none Trophy focused decks, simply based on the likelihood of seeing the accursed Lilith-loving Bahari on the table. > This is a good concept, but Red List is probably the wrong way to go, thematically. In the source material Red List is basically the equivalent of the FBI's Most Wanted listing, and Bahari is a religion/philosophy. Making Bahari = Independent and/or incapable of holding titles and votes would be much more keeping with the flavor. Making them Red List is silly from a conceptual point of view.

> brm130 wrote: > [In the source material Red List is basically the equivalent of the FBI's Most Wanted listing, and Bahari is a religion/philosophy. > It's a religion/philosophy with tie to infernalism. So it's not exactly stupid to say that Bahari should all be in the red list ; it's just that Baali should be red list before them, since bahari are both less well-known and more benign-looking than true Baali. (and certainly less dangerous, but it's subjective)

> brm130 wrote: > This is a good concept, but Red List is probably the wrong way to go, thematically. In the source material Red List is basically the equivalent of the FBI's Most Wanted listing, and Bahari is a religion/philosophy. Making Bahari = Independent and/or incapable of holding titles and votes would be much more keeping with the flavor. > > Making them Red List is silly from a conceptual point of view. > I think thematically Bahari as Red List could be disputed; I simply don’t have enough of the source material to make a strong case. But it certainly wouldn’t be contrary to the theme. While Bahari is a religion/philosophy, it is certainly one that could warrant one being put on to the a Most Wanted list, just as could belonging to a number of terrorist groups or ideologies. However, conceptually the case to be made is stronger (i.e. not ‘silly’). Lilith’s Blessing has a strong positive effect, attached to a condition that can be easily met, and with no corresponding downside. Making Bahari independent doesn’t inconvenience a great many vampires (20-25% won’t mind) and therefore isn’t a sufficient balancing mechanism. Making Bahari unable to vote again wouldn’t impact all vampires, most Baali and Setites wouldn’t give a damn about either restriction. Making Bahari Red List similarly won’t trouble all vampires equally (notably some combat monsters will be indifferent and those who are already Red List won’t be bothered); however, it is a negative effect that will impact most to some degree (i.e. they become rushable) and empowers a mechanism that most people consider weak (i.e. trophies). Most basically I think it becomes an interesting choice: gain three blood and a master card, but also become rushable for the rest of the game. Now I agree that some/many may not think that this is balanced, but it still seems borderline playable and a choice that people may be willing to take. ‘I’m on zero blood, I can either hunt like any other kindred or else sign on with Lilith and become universally despised and hunted’. My point is that would the card have been better and playable if the card had said ‘becomes Red List’ rather than ‘becomes Bahari’? My point is that yes it would.

> brm130 wrote: > This is a good concept, but Red List is probably the wrong way to go, thematically. In the source material Red List is basically the equivalent of the FBI's Most Wanted listing, and Bahari is a religion/philosophy. Making Bahari = Independent and/or incapable of holding titles and votes would be much more keeping with the flavor. > > Making them Red List is silly from a conceptual point of view. > Personally, I don't see why defining Bahari as *also* something else is necessary. It is a trait. It can be addressed as such on its own merits. My reading of the lore says that there is no inconsistency between Lilins and political vampires. Forcing them to be Independent is one way of restricting the power of the Lilith's Blessing card. However, it doesn't seem necessary to introduce this type of fix to the card which will have long-term implications for the game. Shoot, if you go down this route, I suppose Miller Delmardigan should be retroactively assigned the Bahari trait as well. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Jeff wrote: > My reading of the lore says that there is no inconsistency between Lilins and political vampires. > Except the fact they are cast out from the sabbat (from the lore), and aren't on the humanity path, which make them at odds with the camarilla. And a lot of independants clans aren't keen on them either ; they are philosophically at odds with Setite* and assamites, and Giovanni will fear they stop obeying the clan. Of course, they may keep their affiliation hidden, but lillith blessing don't seem to be all that easy to conceal. * for setites, the problem is that Lilins tend to be corrupted themselves, whereas they are supposed to be corrupter but stay straigth.

Adding cards to expand a weak concept is fine. There's room for power expansion. And card draw probability, along with necessary card combination, generally mitigates the speed of implementation. Adding cards to contract an overpowered (possibly even broken) concept is a waste of time. There's little room for power expansion because the overpowered: a) already de facto bans other card concepts, b) leaves little design leeway for mistakes, i.e. create more problems than it solves. And further again, card draw probability generally mitigates the speed of 'magic bullet' implementation (which leads to 'fetch tech' speed races -- which already does bad things to a game). Make the bullet too silver and it's cornercase. Make the bullet too gold and it creates its own problems (DI). Leave the situation in desperate need of silver bullets and watch 'rapid reload' tech change the game's nature. Therefore the cleanest solution is to wipe out the 'werewolf' from the field. Ban it already.

> Izaak wrote: > This not true. At no point was the intent to have Bahari actually mean something in the gane. > Just want to quote this for emphasis. People are reading way too much into the Bahari trait simply because it has a name that can be traced in lore. It has a very clear purpose: to not be able to use Lilith's Blessing twice on the same minion. If people are going to complain that Bahari is a useless trait, why not complain that Templar, Archon and Liaison are not further developed neither? These traits are more or less just a switch to further enable or disable something for that minion (counters or just putting a card on a minion is also common but can both also be interacted with, traits are definite switches). The game is riddled with these small traits that sometimes only interact with it's own cards, sometimes with a select few others. Mage, Cold Iron, Inquisitor, Dhampir (!) to add to the previous ones, and there's certainly more. and Lilith's Blessing is not that good Lidingö Scourge

People focus on bahari to try changing lb. Even though simpler fixes are way more practical. Its cool fluff, but barely relevant except on a possible gehenna chronicle and with the lamia. So, it csn be left alone. Just makethe skill card mandatory and lifes easier.

Yeah, the more I think about it the mandatory skill card really seems like the best fix.

> brm130 wrote: > Yeah, the more I think about it the mandatory skill card really seems like the best fix. > Absolutely. Many people read the card like that anyway. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

Lilith's Blessing is not so powerfull card. Problém is combo with Villein. What about if Villein put Bahari counter on the vampire?

That would make no sense. From a fluff standpoint or a vtes mechanics standpoint. The counter from liliths is to prevent one minion from becoming an infinate pool battery by bloating for ten or moreeach turn. Imagine if the counter wasnt placed onto the LB minion. Turn one you play LB and put4 on Anson or Cybele or Nana. Turn2 you bring them out. Turn 3 you minion tap, liliths for protean, call q votes, pump it, minion tap to yoir full capacity of 9, pass the turn. Turn 4 play abombwe master then minion tap for 9, liliths for necro, call a votez, push cap, fill to new capacity of11. Next turn, abombwe, tap for 11, fetch quietus with liliths, call vote, push n cap, fill to new capacity of 13. Now just vote, tap, cap, gain blood from liliths. The issue is liliths doesnt mandate the skill card. If it did, it would be a fetch engine yiu HAVE to villein or vessel to pull off, and work as intended. Villein was in alot of decks and hurt other decks, so its already changed. Liliths is in alot of decks and only like 2% of them use it for anything other than cheating a free villein. Change LB and it becomes a skill fetcher, that issue is solved.

Hi! Making the discipline card fetch a requirement for gaining the blood is my favourite. Other solution is to unsync LB with villein by making it an untap effect instead of masterphase action. This would both boost it effect (not wasting MPA) for non MMP deck's and return some of the cards intended restrictions(empty minion). Something like this: Lilith's Blessing Master [1 Pool] Master. Put this card in play. During your untap phase, you may tap this card to search your library for a master: Discipline card and choose a ready non-Bahari vampire you control who has no blood. That vampire gains the Discipline card (if any) and 3 blood and becomes Bahari.

LB costs 2 pool has to get discipline card. gains 2 blood. During your untap phase INDEED no other changes needed. not that it seems overly broken. golconda+villein generates lots of blood too. making anthelios transient is good. UDHR18/19/27

What ever happened to "Lilith's Blessing" in the end? Is it still banned or did it get an erata? If so to what?

it's still banned

> alek wrote: > it's still banned > Which is kind of sad. I guess VEKN think its too strong even with the natural errata/reinterpretation of forcing one to fetch a skill card to get the 3 blood. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

My guess is that few to no text changes will be made until we actually see the game back in print. Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > My guess is that few to no text changes will be made until we actually see the game back in print. > My point is that you actually don´t need a text change to rule that a skill card is needed for this effect, but I understand that some mean otherwise. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > > > Lönkka wrote: > > My guess is that few to no text changes will be made until we actually see the game back in print. > > > My point is that you actually don´t need a text change to rule that a skill card is needed for this effare nect, but I understand that some mean otherwise. > I agree that this is the simplest, least obtrusive option. But I think testing hasn't happened due to it being an existant card and there being more focus on being in print again for such things. still could happen, since mmpa decks didnt get hurt much by its absence. I feel if those become too popular again, rule erratta can limit additional mpas to one non-trifle source a turn and we are fine. I still like LB.

In the past, haven't errata changes to card text been made before that card was reprinted again? I ask as I'm not 100% sure..

> Maddog wrote: > In the past, haven't errata changes to card text been made before that card was reprinted again? > > I ask as I'm not 100% sure.. > See: Villein.