For confirmation: Seraph's Second can be played by a tapped Seraph after another non-Seraph Black Hand acted, right? Similar to Cloak the Gathering playable by a tapped vampire.
> Name: Seraph's Second
> [SoC:R]
> Cardtype: Action Modifier
> Requires a ready Seraph. Only usable when a non-Seraph Black Hand vampire is acting, after resolution.
> Untap the acting Black Hand vampire. A Seraph may play only one Seraph's Second each turn.
> Artist: Jeremy McHugh
>
> extrala wrote:
> For confirmation: Seraph's Second can be played by a tapped Seraph after another non-Seraph Black Hand acted, right? Similar to Cloak the Gathering playable by a tapped vampire.
>
Yes. It doesn't require an untapped Seraph, just a Seraph (controlled by the acting Methuselah, of course).
> Pascal wrote:
>
> > extrala wrote:
> > For confirmation: Seraph's Second can be played by a tapped Seraph after another non-Seraph Black Hand acted, right? Similar to Cloak the Gathering playable by a tapped vampire.
> >
> Yes. It doesn't require an untapped Seraph, just a Seraph (controlled by the acting Methuselah, of course).
>
Eleimelech just got better in my deck building concepts.
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> Eleimelech just got better in my deck building concepts.
>
Elimelech was always good. He has All the other disciplines, Black Hand Seraph, +1 strength and first strike are just distractions.
If you're working the Black Hand angle, Tattoo Signal and Watchtower: Four Ride Forth are both better than Seraph's Second - because they are persistent. I'll admit a couple of "Freak Others" doesn't hurt.
The biggest problem with the Black Hand approach is developing a crypt to run with him. Sennadurek, Kestrell and Nicomedes are all interesting G4/G5 sidekicks. Cermen fits in a small subset of decks.
There are a variety of library options for that mix of vampires - the biggest problems are growth speed, pool management and blood hemorrhaging. With a little work, there are good decks in there though.
> TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:
> Elimelech was always good. He has All the other disciplines, Black Hand Seraph, +1 strength and first strike are just distractions.
>
The good term for him would more be "crappy". Not because he inherently have bad disciplines ; but he's way too big for what he do in practice. He is not titled, have not enough combat discipline to use correctly his special, and have only +1 bleed.
Blackhorse tanner will in most case be better once in play, which is very sad considering he is 7-cap and Elimelech 11-cap
> TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:
> The biggest problem with the Black Hand approach is developing a crypt to run with him. Sennadurek, Kestrell and Nicomedes are all interesting G4/G5 sidekicks. Cermen fits in a small subset of decks.
>
Well, there is a lot of black hand weenie on 4/5. But they perform better without him in fact.
Not sure why all the questions on Action Modifiers as nothing in the rules say you must be untapped to use them.
> Yes. It doesn't require an untapped Seraph, just a Seraph (controlled by the acting Methuselah, of course).
>
Although to make an argument, what stops any Seraph from playing the card? Card text overrides rulebook and nothing on the card says it must be played by a Seraph controlled by the same Methuselah as the acting minion.
Precedent:
Cloak the Gathering
[OBF] Only usable by a ready vampire other than the acting minion you control.
Hidden Lurker
Only usable by a ready untapped vampire other than the acting minion. Only usable after a combat between the acting minion you control and a blocking minion.
Blanket of Night
[OBT] Only usable by a vampire other than the acting minion when a minion attempts to block an acting minion you control.
Empowering the Puppet King
Only usable by a ready untapped vampire other than the acting minion you control.
If the intent of Seraph's Second is for only the acting Methuselah to be able to play it then we should consider a wording change to make it consistent with other Action Modifiers with a similar requirement.
> Requires a ready Seraph. Only usable when a non-Seraph Black Hand vampire you control is acting, after resolution.
>
Good news are : you cannot play an action modifier when someone else's minion is acting (barring specific card text). so absolutely no need for rewording. Yay !
Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
> Reyda wrote:
> Good news are : you cannot play an action modifier when someone else's minion is acting (barring specific card text). so absolutely no need for rewording. Yay !
>
Sure we know that but the rules don't say that, they say:
Only the acting minion can play action modifiers, while only other Methuselahs' ready untapped minions can play reaction cards. The effect of an action modifier or a reaction card lasts for the duration of the current action by default.
so it's not obvious that if a card is playable by a non-acting minion e.g. Seraph's Second why it would only be limited to the minions also controlled by that Methuselah .
> Squidalot wrote:
>
> > Reyda wrote:
> > Good news are : you cannot play an action modifier when someone else's minion is acting (barring specific card text). so absolutely no need for rewording. Yay !
> >
> Sure we know that but the rules don't say that, they say:
>
> Only the acting minion can play action modifiers, while only other Methuselahs' ready untapped minions can play reaction cards. The effect of an action modifier or a reaction card lasts for the duration of the current action by default.
>
> so it's not obvious that if a card is playable by a non-acting minion e.g. Seraph's Second why it would only be limited to the minions also controlled by that Methuselah .
>
Ok. So i have jalan and banjoko untapped, clan impersonating malkavian. Madness network is in play. They bleed. Untap with seraphs second. Can i continue to bleed and untap with both seraphs each players turn until i cease to draw them? I think you cancross cloak under those circumstances. Does it work?
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
>
> > Squidalot wrote:
> >
> > > Reyda wrote:
> > > Good news are : you cannot play an action modifier when someone else's minion is acting (barring specific card text). so absolutely no need for rewording. Yay !
> > >
> > >
> > Sure we know that but the rules don't say that, they say:
> >
> > Only the acting minion can play action modifiers, while only other Methuselahs' ready untapped minions can play reaction cards. The effect of an action modifier or a reaction card lasts for the duration of the current action by default.
> >
> > so it's not obvious that if a card is playable by a non-acting minion e.g. Seraph's Second why it would only be limited to the minions also controlled by that Methuselah .
> >
> Ok. So i have jalan and banjoko untapped, clan impersonating malkavian. Madness network is in play. They bleed. Untap with seraphs second. Can i continue to bleed and untap with both seraphs each players turn until i cease to draw them? I think you cancross cloak under those circumstances. Does it work?
>
Nope it doesn't work, try reading card text before asking. Neither Banjoko nor Jalan is a 'non-seraph' so you can't play Seraph's Second on either of them.
Ok, sorry, cant reference secret library while answering on my phone. I need to just dig into my cards. They are right next to me, but non-discipline modifiers are on the bottom box of the pile.
How about: eleimelech bleeds. I have madness network out. Marge khan clan impersonates malks. Ss to untap. An i continually bleed with marge and untap with seraphs second each turn? Can i cross cloak with eliemelech while doing it?
> Squidalot wrote:
>
> > Reyda wrote:
> > Good news are : you cannot play an action modifier when someone else's minion is acting (barring specific card text). so absolutely no need for rewording. Yay !
> >
> Sure we know that but the rules don't say that, they say:
>
> Only the acting minion can play action modifiers, while only other Methuselahs' ready untapped minions can play reaction cards. The effect of an action modifier or a reaction card lasts for the duration of the current action by default.
>
> so it's not obvious that if a card is playable by a non-acting minion e.g. Seraph's Second why it would only be limited to the minions also controlled by that Methuselah .
>
The rulebook doesn't specify, but the rules do:
> Non-existant user wrote:
> Action Modifiers that can be played by minions other than the acting minion (Hidden Lurker, Mask of a Thousand Faces, superior Cloak the Gathering) can only be played by the controller of the acting minion. [LSJ 19990425]
>
--
National Coordinator
South Africa
> drnlmza wrote:
> Action Modifiers that can be played by minions other than the acting minion (Hidden Lurker, Mask of a Thousand Faces, superior Cloak the Gathering) can only be played by the controller of the acting minion. [LSJ 19990425]
>
@Pascal: There's another example of the Unwritten Golden Rule (What LSJ said beats cards and rules).
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
>
> > drnlmza wrote:
> > Action Modifiers that can be played by minions other than the acting minion (Hidden Lurker, Mask of a Thousand Faces, superior Cloak the Gathering) can only be played by the controller of the acting minion. [LSJ 19990425]
> >
> @Pascal: There's another example of the Unwritten Golden Rule (What LSJ said beats cards and rules).
>
There is no "unwritten golden rule".
It appears to have been legitimately unclear.
Now it's written in the Rulings page.
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> Ok, sorry, cant reference secret library while answering on my phone. I need to just dig into my cards. They are right next to me, but non-discipline modifiers are on the bottom box of the pile.
>
> How about: eleimelech bleeds. I have madness network out. Marge khan clan impersonates malks. Ss to untap. An i continually bleed with marge and untap with seraphs second each turn? Can i cross cloak with eliemelech while doing it?
>
Yes, and yes.
> Pascal wrote:
>
> > Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> >
> > > drnlmza wrote:
> > > Action Modifiers that can be played by minions other than the acting minion (Hidden Lurker, Mask of a Thousand Faces, superior Cloak the Gathering) can only be played by the controller of the acting minion. [LSJ 19990425]
> > >
> > @Pascal: There's another example of the Unwritten Golden Rule (What LSJ said beats cards and rules).
> >
> There is no "unwritten golden rule".
>
> It appears to have been legitimately unclear.
> Now it's written in the Rulings page.
>
Point is it's fundamental enough that it should live in core rulebook over rulings page, I expect players to have read the rulebook but I don't see why they should need to look at the rulings for something like that.
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> How about: eleimelech bleeds. I have madness network out. Marge khan clan impersonates malks. Ss to untap. An i continually bleed with marge and untap with seraphs second each turn? Can i cross cloak with eliemelech while doing it?
>
(and by the way, you can do the same thing of bleeding every player turn with Unmada playing inf' forced march while Madness network is in play, it work on the same fashion)
> Action Modifiers that can be played by minions other than the acting minion (Hidden Lurker, Mask of a Thousand Faces, superior Cloak the Gathering) can only be played by the controller of the acting minion. [LSJ 19990425]
>
> Add:
> Blanket of Night
> Empowering the Puppet King
> Veil the Legions
>
All said cards above then should have their card text updated to remove redundant rules and to ensure horizontal consistency with other Action Modifiers(Seraph's Second) since it has been ruled who can play them and the rulebook clarified.