Name: Knowing the Masses
Cardtype: Action
Requires a titled vampire.
Bleed at +1 bleed, with an additional +1 bleed if this vampire's title is worth 1 vote.
Art notes: -
World of Darkness reference: None. Bishops and Primogen can have special knowledge no other have.
Game references: Computer Hacking, Intidimidation
How does this card address a compelling game need? Bishops and Primogen are often neglected due to their lack of votes or the cards they don't give access to. By granting them a powerful bleed action (equivalent to an Intimidation but with no discipline requirement) they can be included in decks more easily. Some independant vampires may benefit of it too (eg. Randall) but most of them already have a bleed discipline anyway.
Created by: Ankha
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Bishops and primogen still suck even with access to this tho. bishops with pre can call and even pass templar , but other than that, all either title means is "this almost interesting vampire cannot go anarch. they Will never matter in a referendum. oh, and they can play redlist on random younger vamps. yay. "
I do think they need support, but I think block denial and intercept on the same card is what it would take to make them suck less. if they had that, this card could be hot.
on upside, its not that broken. unless you have an anarch Randall or Danielle Diron , anyone who bleeds for +2 already had access to a +2 bleed action if they had a way to pump it to 6-7. (Meaning pre with aire of elation, or Dom and conditioning, leverage pending , so anarch 1 voters with monkey wrench are the only ones who gain new oomph, and if you anarch secession one of them, you've earned a right to do that)
Seems ok, and addresses a game need, I just don't think it solves it.
So any inner circle can bleed for 4 or 5 with only one disciplineless card ?
More importantly, this card would be playable at +2 by princes. PRince just don't need the boost in any way or shape. Being a prince is already pretty much equivalent to and allow to parity shift away.
> Ohlmann wrote:
> It's uninspiring, which does not mean it would be useless. Still, here and now I don't see a reason to put it into a deck.
>
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> Bishops and primogen still suck even with access to this tho. .
>
This can be seen as a start.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Give the bishop or primogen the chance to increase the bleed by burning blood or give it a secondary text specific to bishops or primogen with good effects like influencing downn, stealing equipment, allies, locations etc.
> Dr.Mafrune wrote:
> Give the bishop or primogen the chance to increase the bleed by burning blood
>
This is already implemented. Except if you think the card should allow for +3 bleed total, which I assume you do not.
> Dr.Mafrune wrote:
> Give the bishop or primogen the chance to increase the bleed by burning blood or give it a secondary text specific to bishops or primogen with good effects like influencing downn, stealing equipment, allies, locations etc.
>
More than what is currently proposed would be unbalanced. I mean, it's like a superior Intimidation with a different requirement.
Sometimes I think that if I proposed Govern the Unaligned as a submission, people would find it too weak.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
If you propose it for it would be too weak. If you proposed it for any other discipline, like or , it would be "Supa-broken baaaaad".
Or at least that's how it seems.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
Primogen/bishop don't only suffer from lack of specific cards : they also suffer from relatively big size (they are ~7.5 average while prince are a bit above 8) and if you try too much to take lower size primogen, you will end up with few common disciplines. And if you take 8-cap primogen, you would as well use prince, justicar, archbishop, cardinal, whatever.
If the card intent is to help star decks that star a bishop/primogen, let's say a Basilia wall deck or something to that extent, then the design is spot on.
If it's to give an additional edge to incite putting some more bishop / primogen in your otherwise regular crypt, then the design have the problem that you can jam on it if you didn't draw the bishop, or even if you did draw it but it's not your first vampire.
An example of something designed to be playable even with relatively few bishop / primogen would be :
Call the autority
Require a vampire with less than two votes and without ballot.
Put two token from your pool to target vampire in your uncontrolled region with exactly one vote. If this vampire is titled, you can target any vampire in your uncontrolled region. Untap this vampire. Only one Call the autority can be played each turn.
Another option would be a card which is a specific silver bullet, so you can play one or two of them, kind of an entrancement or dominate kine for bishop/primogen. The problem with an intimidation for bishop is that you are likely to want to play 5-7 of them while you're at it.
Popular Leader
Action
1 blood
+1 stealth.
Requires a Bishop or Primgoen.
Put this card on the acting minion with 1 counter for each younger minion on the same clan you control. Once during an action the vampire with this card may burn a counter on this card to gain either +1 bleed or +1 vote; this effect may be used while another minion is acting. Burn this card when it has 0 counters.
How about that for boosting up bishops and primogen?
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
hold the ranks
Requires a bishop or a primogen
+1 stealth action
untap this acting vampire and up to 2 younger, untitled vampires of the same sect (or the same clan maybe?)
if this action is blocked, the acting vampire may burn one blood to untap.
Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
> Reyda wrote:
> hold the ranks
>
> Requires a bishop or a primogen
> +1 stealth action
> untap this acting vampire and up to 2 younger, untitled vampires of the same sect (or the same clan maybe?)
> if this action is blocked, the acting vampire may burn one blood to untap.
>
This is pretty cool actually, and gives decks like Nosferatu G3, as well as many G1 crypts, a significant boost. Considering how weak primogen and bishops really are, I wouldn't even call it broken or anything. Any abuse I can think for it is relatively young bishops or primogen for !Toreador, Toreador and Lasombra. They can pack a lot of bleed power as well as other tricks, and those untaps might help them a lot.
Miller Delmardigan or Rosa Martinez, or even Jessica, commanding a !Toreador horde with Foundation Exhibit, Art Scams and Palla Grande. Pretty nasty.
Krausedit\\ You might want to drop the untap from either succesful action, or a succesful block to give it a draw back. Now it's basically a free card.
"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise
garourimgazette.wordpress.com/
www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines
> Reyda wrote:
> hold the ranks
>
> Requires a bishop or a primogen
> +1 stealth action
> untap this acting vampire and up to 2 younger, untitled vampires of the same sect (or the same clan maybe?)
> if this action is blocked, the acting vampire may burn one blood to untap.
>
I would restrict it to vampires of the same clan (for background), and limit it to 1 younger untitled vampire. Even then, it's free whereas Patronage costs 1 pool. Is the bishop/primogen requirement restrictive enough to make it free? Otherwise I like the idea (and I'll remove the "untap if blocked" clause).
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> ]I would restrict it to vampires of the same clan (for background)
>
Background can loosely justify that for primogen (who are on a clan basis, even if a lot of them have non-clanmate allies and servant). But for bishop, it's not justified at all.
For balance basis, it could be a good idea.
> hold the ranks
>
> Requires a bishop or a primogen
> +1 stealth action
> untap this acting vampire and up to 2 younger, untitled vampires of the same sect (or the same clan maybe?)
> if this action is blocked, the acting vampire may burn one blood to untap.
>
For me this should be like this:
hold the ranks
Requires a bishop or a primogen
+1 stealth action
untap this acting vampire and other untitled vampire of the same clan. The second vampire cannot be older than the acting.
if this action is blocked, the acting vampire may burn one blood to untap after combat if any.
> Ankha wrote:
> Name: Knowing the Masses
> Cardtype: Action
> Requires a titled vampire.
> Bleed at +1 bleed, with an additional +1 bleed if this vampire's title is worth 1 vote.
>
I kind of like it, it is kind of smart. But I´m very reluctant to hand out a non-discipline +2 bleed card. Much rather give it some other effect, slightly less powerful. Maybe something flexy (think Old Friends)
"My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."
Maybe this...
Name: Knowing the Masses
Cardtype: Action
Requires a titled vampire.
Bleed at +1 bleed. If this vampire's title is worth 1 vote, he or she can burn 1 blood to untap at the end of the action (after combat if any).
Jussi Hattara
Webmaster Extraordinaire
Finnish Politics!
> jhattara wrote:
> Maybe this...
>
> Name: Knowing the Masses
> Cardtype: Action
> Requires a titled vampire.
> Bleed at +1 bleed. If this vampire's title is worth 1 vote, he or she can burn 1 blood to untap at the end of the action (after combat if any).
>
More boring than the untap version. Untaps make Primogens more versatile, and that's always interesting. Also, it implements other tactics than just bleeding, like multiacting to do funny actions as well.
I'd rather see the 1-voters do powerful, and potentially silly stuff, and untaps come first to mind. Also, giving them just additional bleed becomes kinda redundant, since those pretty much only help Nossies, and possibly Tsimizce and the like. I mean, those clans that don't have bleed disciplines to begin with.
The untap is cool at the end of the action, though. +1 bleed primogens (mainly G1) would gain a wee bit of a boost, mayhaps.
"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise
garourimgazette.wordpress.com/
www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines
> Kraus wrote:
> and possibly Tsimizce and the like.
>
Yeah, but as far as Tzimizce go, they have almost identical card at their disposal - Fiendish Tongue. True, they can only untap in a discard, but it works on every Tzimisce.
My point is that Tzimies won't use this card that much, should they want a disciplinless bleed.
How about:
"Knowing the Masses"
Requires a Primogen or Bishop. Bleed with +1 bleed. You may tap a younger untitled vampire you control to increase the bleed by 1 and untap this vampire if the action is successful.
It helps "star" vampire decks (which presumably have "helpers".) Conceptually, you can imagine a vampire with some authority using a less powerful vampire to increase performance and efficiency. It is very "Jyhad" with an elder vampire using a lesser vampire.
Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.
God knows I don't say this often when it comes to card ideas, but that is actually too weak.
It requires two vamps to be played, one of them needs a specific title and another one needs to be both younger and without a title. and one of those gets tapped, for a net gain of +1 bleed and untap. If I were to keep those restrictions, I'd make it at least +2 bleed, or perhaps the younger vamp could burn blood for +1 stealth...