Cost for printing cards (PoD/LCG/...)

Since the VEKN survey thread is a bit derailing towards the cost for print of demand cards, I have opened up this thread and done some research on cost and sale prices (huge difference!) == Regular Trading Card Game == VTES Booster -- 11 Cards -- $2.99 -- 27.18 cent per card MTG Booster -- 2013 Core Set Booster -- 15 cards -- $3.99 -- 26.6 cent per card == Living Card Game == Fantasy Flight Games (Living Card Game) -- store.fantasyflightgames.com/showproducts.cfm?FullCat=107 * (Example) AGOT LCG: Calling the Banners Chapter Pack -- 40 cards -- $9.95 -- 24.875 cent per card * (Example) AGOT LCG: Called by the Conclave -- 60 cards -- $14.95 -- 24.5 cent per card Fantasy Flight Games ("Print On Demand") -- store.fantasyflightgames.com/showproducts.cfm?FullCat=274 * (Example) Warhammer FRPG: Dreadfleet Captains POD -- 40 cards -- $9.95 -- 24.875 cent per card == Print on Demand Shops == Guild of Blades -- www.guildofblades.com/podcards-pricing.php * Base pricing is 7.5 cent per card, but it is important to remember that actual pricing is per set of 9. Game Crafter -- www.thegamecrafter.com/ * 100 cards -- 0.936 cent per card Superior POD -- www.superiorpod.com/product/poker-size-custom-card-decks * 90 card deck -- $7.55 -- 8.72 cent per card More links on game & card manufacturers: www.silcom.com/~tomjolly/design2.htm As a footnote: Card sizes can be problematic for PoD since they are somewhat different different: * Poker sized playing card is 2.5 inches wide by 3.5 inches tall (64 × 89 mm) * Bridge sized playing card is 2.25 inches wide by 3.5 inches tall (57 x 89 mm) * MtG/VtES sized card is 2 15/32 inches wide by 3 7/16 tall inches tall (63 x 88 mm) For the me the goal of a print-of-demand program is to provide new players with cards/decks. When you compare costs for a 90 card deck you come up with this: 90 cards 10 Cent -- $9,00 15 Cent -- $13,50 20 Cent -- $18,00 25 Cent -- $22,50 30 Cent -- $27,00 40 Cent -- $36,00 And I think, 20-25 cents per card is the absolute max. a new player will want to spent.

> extrala wrote: > Fantasy Flight Games ("Print On Demand") -- store.fantasyflightgames.com/showproducts.cfm?FullCat=274 > * (Example) Warhammer FRPG: Dreadfleet Captains POD -- 40 cards -- $9.95 -- 24.875 cent per card > It seems that it is not PoD as we understand it here: you still cannot choose what is in your pack. It is more like thematic boosters, something that could be done for VTES too.

The term Print-on-Demand is interpreted/applied really differently by the various companies. In this case, FFG just produces these fixed sets apparently only on demand, whereas with the LCQ they produce a fixed number of (also fixed) sets before they start selling it. Also most of the manufacturing companies only offer to produce one to many copies of a fixed sets, a few offer a randomization of sets.

So you think players would want to spend LESS per card even if they can chose exactly what they get? Makes no sense to me. How do you come up with 20-25 cents? Also print cost is interesting but only partially relevant since it doesn't figure cost for operating a website, Licensing, development, artwork, product management, free prize support etc.. But it serves as a good indication that 20 cents is totally unrealistic when the printing costs already half of it. Also do the POD costs use blackout card stock? If not totally unusable for VTES (too transparent). This adds several cents per card!

I'm sure there are several factors that can affect the cost of printing cards. Any time people can order ala carte, the cost is going to be significantly more than some fixed set xX copies of that set. If we're talking about just printing the new cards that come out, you'll be missing your Villeins, Giant's Blood, Parity Shift, etc. Will it really make sense at that point to order ala carte with a 40 card set? If there aren't booster packs, packaging costs should go down. I don't think that many people will want to pay something comparable to retail price when there is no retail store, plus shipping. What are we talking about anyway, printing any card or just new ones? Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

> So you think players would want to spend LESS per card even if they can chose exactly what they get? Makes no sense to me. How do you come up with 20-25 cents? > That's not at all what Ralf's saying. He's saying that if you put the model to work to get players with little cards or returning players that quit in 2000 with a bunch of cards, 25 cent per card would translate into 22.50 for a deck. And that's where you need to determine what you're trying to do. From my perspective you basically have 3 options: 1) Provide (disgruntled) existing players with 5 Enkil Cogs and 20 Ashur Tablets each and turn the game into what's basically a complicated, hard to get a group for, not mainstream, unsupported Magic. If I were in your shoes, I'd not opt for this, as then you will basically lose half your already dwindling playerbase in exchange for really nothing as well as kill off the secondary market. I understand you have your own business and therefore you are obviously aware that if your product is worthless, then so is your entire business. 2) Provide existing players with actual paper cards of the to be released new set. In this scenario, a costs of 30-35 cents per card seems reasonable. Given a set of 30 cards, most of which you need 5-10 of, you'd be looking at an investment of a little under $100. Entirely reasonable. If I were in your shoes, I'd try and make this work as that is the thing that will keep tournaments alive the longest, especially if new cards manage to spawn new archtypes or end up being able to mess with existing ones in the long haul. 3) Provide a way for new players to get tons of staples. In this scenario, more than 25 cents per card is simply too much. Think about it - how many cards do you need to get started? I'd have a hard time convincing someone to start an obscure, fan-driven game if they'd need to spend $100 upfront. There's a reason starters were $10,-

4) Ban Enkil Cog and Ashur Tablets so they don't need to be reprinted? More seriously though, I can see that as a business model there may be some merit in overpricing bespoke single card picks, but offering a lower per-card price if cards are bought in fixed blocks of say 40, 50 or 60 cards - i.e. something analagous to the old starters or the FFG LCG expansion packs. Read my new blog: gameaholicblog.wordpress.com

> johannes wrote: > Also print cost is interesting but only partially relevant since it doesn't figure cost for operating a website, licensing, development, artwork, product management, free prize support etc... > So, is the V:EKN still a volunteer organization dedicated to promoting tournament and casual play? When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Jeff wrote: > > > johannes wrote: > > Also print cost is interesting but only partially relevant since it doesn't figure cost for operating a website, licensing, development, artwork, product management, free prize support etc... > > > So, is the V:EKN still a volunteer organization dedicated to promoting tournament and casual play? > Where in that list do you see "salaries for VEKN members?" This is going off topic, so please create a new thread if you want to rant (or if others want to counter-rant). Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

> Jeff wrote: > So, is the V:EKN still a volunteer organization dedicated to promoting tournament and casual play? > Unless I have missed the press release, I assume the vekn is still what you ask it to be. I see the PoD story as an opportunity for the community*, not as a threat. It is not unlikely that this community would come up with starter-deck-like decklists and provides those to the printer as decks for new players. There are enough examples of well worked out decks: Barbed Wire Project Reasonably Priced decks And of course there is Thelasombra's archive Unless all those people slam copyright on those decklists, those decks are ready to send to the printer. *community: the group of current, past and future v:tes players. www.facebook.com/groups/vtes.belgium/

@Ralf: I had no idea that VTES cards aren't basically US Poker Card size. I've been having a horrific time trying to find more than 2 or 3 suppliers in the world who will do POD printing for 3.5" square cards (to use as the VTES Counters). Getting cutting dies made, so that I could use a local Australian producer, cost something like $250 up front before paying for card printing. It's prohibitive unless you're doing big runs. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> johannes wrote: > Also print cost is interesting but only partially relevant since it doesn't figure cost for operating a website, > Licensing, development, artwork, product management, free prize support etc.. But it serves as a good indication that 20 cents is totally unrealistic when the printing costs already half of it.! > I know it takes money beyond the simple print cost to make the print-on-demand work. But I sees this from new player's perspective (or for purpose of recruiting new players for the game if you will). I also acknowledge, that it's dirt cheap for existing players then to reprint Ashurs, Baltimore, Enkil, ... But .. if a full deck with ~90 cards cost more $22.50 (more 25 cents per card) can I really convince new players to join? Honestly, I could not. For comparison, previously VTES starter decks with 89 cards had cost (and still cost for those available) $9.95 (iirc). Maybe we need some mixed approach. Have some starter-like decks as before with a fixed set and with lower price, and on top of that have the pick-some-cards-print-on-demand for totally individual decks. With 40 cent per card and 90 cards, a full deck would cost $36 dollar. That's prohibitive cost for new players, even if they could freely customize their deck. P.S.: I could saved some time if I had read Izaak's post first.

I'd like to see the cost per card decline with volume. If I buy 500 cards, I should pay less than someone buying 5. (This is ignoring shipping, of course.) Charge less for bigger purchases and you'll incentive players to spend more money overall. Also, I think, as several people have mentioned now, that it's worth looking at this in terms of cost-per-deck than cost-per-card, and to ask how much a new player would realistically pay to buy a deck of 78 library and 12 crypt cards. $20 + shipping seems a little high to me, frankly, given the much lower cost of WW pre-cons.

1.) I belive the mix of two is optimal - starters + fully customise POD 2.) OFc starters must be cheaper - maybe 10$maybe 20$ 3.) There will be one change with new starters - I remember my atempt to start play acunanse. In order to play reasonable deck I needed to bay 4 preconstructed Acu decks. The price of one was 10$. But my budget had to be 4x10=40$. 4.) We will have now much greater freedom in createing starters. Wy should starters have 90 cards ? For example new starter can have 120 most important cards for a specific clan, and proposion of three different decks base on these cards, for the price 20$. For this price we can deliver really all necessary resourcer for new player. It was not possible in old times with crippled starters for 10$. VEKN Marketing CoDirector

Larger starters designed to give players options is an excellent idea.

Starting players still have great options, including the playgroup support kits: www.sites.google.com/site/rosetatuproductions/playgroup-support-kits-1 Those things are going for somewhere around $0.06 per card. How cheap can a POD company provide that service? Or a single-player-kit version?

> Migalart wrote: > For example new starter can have 120 most important cards for a specific clan, and proposion of three different decks base on these cards, for the price 20$. For this price we can deliver really all necessary resourcer for new player. It was not possible in old times with crippled starters for 10$. > I can understand this approach, though I look at it differently. A total of 102 cards (90 library and 12 vampire) conforms to rules and should be viable. I suggest. 1) Have a recognized, high-quality player design a 90 card starter based on the old one starters. Use some pre-established boundaries if needed (e.g., it's OK to put up to 2 Villeins in the deck), though in the new age of PoD, I would even suggest putting in what makes the best sense for function (e.g., if it needs 8 Villein, go for it). The new decks should highlight the strengths of the clan. You should already have a better starter than the previous version. 2) Run the new pre-constructed decks through the already-existing (highly qualified) VEKN playtest groups, in head-to-head games against other precons. See where decks are greatly lacking (e.g., the !Brujah only colllected 8% of the cumulative VP, instead of the 20% they should be expected to). Send those under-performing decks back to the designer for modification. 3) Playtest those decks again, if desired (may only be necessary to test re-worked vs re-worked decks). If the designer is good and receives accurate feedback from the first run, re-testing is likely unneeded. 4) Lock the contents in place and use that as a POD "template" - basically a 1-button push to buy a clan pre-con. 90 cards + 12 vampire, but in a good (relatively focused) deck and done. Charge a lower-than-a-la-carte price for the pre-configured deck, if printed completely unchanged. 5) Let people modify from the template if they desire - but charge them the higher a la carte price per card for all 102 cards, even if they change only 1 card in the precon. As an extension to that, I can easily see doing something like the MtG Pro Tour decks......every new deck added to the TWDA automatically gets templated for 1-button purchase PoD. Want John Bell's or Hugh Angseesing's latest winning design? Follow a link from the TWDA, pay your money and receive it as they played it (all at the a la carte price, since winning decks vary in library size). Darby.

If your inventory is stored in Secret Library, when viewing a deck you can see how many cards you're missing from that deck. That could also be used for PoD shopping list. Jussi Hattara Webmaster Extraordinaire Finnish Politics!

I believe that it still is very important to get stores to start selling and demoing our game. Therefore I think that any format where players are alowed to choose what singels they want to buy is a bad thing for the game. I am all game for making starters but anything short of boosters are IMHO bad for the game. We need the stores to sell and demo the game. But I have very little information on how printing works but it feels like when you already have the formats it should not be much more work to just wait until you get a sufficient amount orderd and then print the batch and send it to people and shops. Also creating starters with a only few rares or highly sought after cards is a given. Hell the shops and company needs to sell to stay alive! Prince of Lidingö

> Randy wrote: > I believe that it still is very important to get stores to start selling and demoing our game. > Why would they do that? There is no money to be made by them at any level. If I owned a game store, I certainly wouldn't demo a product for which it was impossible to profit on. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> Randy wrote: > I believe that it still is very important to get stores to start selling and demoing our game. > I agree with this part for sure. Game stores sell other non-CCG games though, no reason for them to make the extra investment beyond better starter decks. A package similar to the Third Edition Player's Kit is the ideal game store inventory. Small, easily sold to support a small group, easy to hand to a new player, ready to go. Perhaps have a new variant of this package every 6-9 months, with the rules in that package pointing to this website and to the publisher of the print-on-demand material .

> Randy wrote: > I believe that it still is very important to get stores to start selling and demoing our game. > Indeed so, but unfortunately that ship sailed and sunk years ago. I'm in an exclusive forum for Hobby Trade professionals (consisting mainly of US retailers) and they havenät had interest in VTES for ages. Can't make profit when you have to compete with Potomac and the like. If you don't get the normal margins you just drop the game. I've been thinking about demoing the game at our store, but I'm kinda retarded that way (*). We also have quite a deep selection of most of the sets. * by demoing meaning that I'd be demoing on my own time since it wouldn't make sense for the company to pay me for demoing VTES in the current environment Finnish Politics!

> TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote: > I can understand this approach, though I look at it differently. A total of 102 cards (90 library and 12 vampire) conforms to rules and should be viable. > More than 12 vampires in the crypt is also legal and would allow some customization. Maybe 15 or 18?

@Adonai: To be honest, I wouldn't be heading back to our previous "FLGS" or letting them know that VTES was back in print. He has been something of an ass to our group and I don't mind not having to deal with him frequently if often at all. I'd just encourage new players to buy precons (assuming they are available). I don't mind the idea that FLGS might be able to get a 'business discount' on the cards to encourage some places to begin stocking again. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> KevinM wrote: > > > Randy wrote: > > I believe that it still is very important to get stores to start selling and demoing our game. > > > Why would they do that? There is no money to be made by them at any level. If I owned a game store, I certainly wouldn't demo a product for which it was impossible to profit on. > There is no profit if a singel player can buy cards from the producing company at the same price as the stores sell the cards for. But if the producing company sells to stores for less then individual player (and the tax reduction of beeing a store at least in sweden) there will be profit involved. Lönkka it is sad and also true that stores have to choose what to stock and so on but at least in our biggest lokal store they have some vampire cards left and want us vampire players to stay play and hold events... It is important for the survival of the game in how the new producing company decides to print cards. And I just dont believe that individual players should be able to choose singels they want. Rarities are a part of the game that at least I enjoy (me beeing a CCG fan and all) and want to see left i the game one way or another. Prince of Lidingö

So the prices for the cards to players wouldneed to be higher to take into account the discounts given to stores. If you really want to do this, the discounts would have to be industry standard, meaning the PoD cards for players would become stupidly high. I mean, look at the "starter" prices already quoted. How much more unfeasible we want the prices to be? Finnish Politics!

Assuming the price of each card lowers when you print huge quantities of them, a solution I'd subscribe to would be that VEKN creates "packs" (as for LCG) they would re-sell to players. Those packs could be thematic (clan-based etc.) or discipline-based. We can even think of "Starter packs" that would be ready to play This would ensure the lower price for everyone and allow new players to start decks and old players to complete collections. This requires from VEKN: - to advance some money - to design packs - to package them (and fill them manually) - to take orders to ship in the world. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Trying to cater to the "FLGS" is futile, might as well cater to unicorns. How many are there and are they worth worrying about? If the game is picked up by a publisher, then I'd let them worry about that. If there was some secondary product that people want and a store *could* carry, nothing is stopping them from buying it anyway. Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

In UK, we don't care about stores: we play in pubs anyway

It's not really true that stores won't be willing to sell a game that players can buy directly to the manufacturer. LCGs usually have both options, buying it at the store or directly to the manufacturer (at least for fix sets of cards). The thing is that the industrial price for the reseller has to be lower, so that the direct-purchase price and the store price are the same (or similar). Just check FFGs store: store.fantasyflightgames.com/showproducts.cfm?FullCat=274

> Ankha wrote: > Assuming the price of each card lowers when you print huge quantities of them, > Not really. If you do POD the price doesn´t get much cheaper with volume because the process doesn´t change. You can print much cheaper when you go to offset printing with industrial packaging, like old booster/starter format but then you do 5.000 - 10.000 boxes .. not sure the VEKN can do this kind of numbers

Any reason why Gamecrafter are 10 times cheaper than the other printers? What are their minimal orders?

> cordovader wrote: > It's not really true that stores won't be willing to sell a game that players can buy directly to the manufacturer. > Obviously not. Almost every manufacturer sells their products via their website. No problems there. The problem is that if the entity who is planning to do the print on demand printing of VTES need to give substantial discount to the retailer who might purchase VTES for their stores. This would have to be taken into account when pricing the POD cards for consumers as well. So in order to be able to give the hypothetical interested retailers reasonable discount that enables them too to make enough profit to justify carrying the game, they'd need to up the prices for the POD cards the consumers buy directly from the company printing the cards that these would become absurdly more expensive (as the prices per card currently discussed already seem to be quite high). > cordovader wrote: > LCGs usually have both options, buying it at the store or directly to the manufacturer (at least for fix sets of cards). The thing is that the industrial price for the reseller has to be lower, so that the direct-purchase price and the store price are the same (or similar). > Yes, but also see my answer above. Print on demand is geared for, well, printing on demand. So you don't get the usual price benefits from doing a giganormously large print run. This is also the reason why companies like FFG don't give retailers/distributors their normal full discount for POD items. Not getting full traditional discount off doesn't really help retailers pick the game (especially that hasn't performed up to their expectations before) as there is already plenty of well performing competition for the shelf space at full retail. Trust me, I've been buying games and toys for living for some 20+ years now... Also VTES isn't a LCG and apparently won't be using that model in the future so I it doesn't actually compare to the different format. EDIT: removed some typos Finnish Politics!

Janne is making absolutely the right point. At this moment unfortunately we are down to one choice : screw the stores or screw the players. I tend to choose the former, the lesser evil.

> johannes wrote: > Also print cost is interesting but only partially relevant since it doesn't figure cost for operating a website, licensing, development, artwork, product management, free prize support etc... > > Jeff wrote: > So, is the V:EKN still a volunteer organization dedicated to promoting tournament and casual play? > > brandonsantacruz wrote: > Where in that list do you see "salaries for VEKN members?" This is going off topic, so please create a new thread if you want to rant (or if others want to counter-rant). > It's not going off topic. If the V:EKN is intending on generating a revenue stream, is it still a volunteer-run organization? Follow the money. It should matter to content creators. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Jeff wrote: > > > johannes wrote: > > Also print cost is interesting but only partially relevant since it doesn't figure cost for operating a website, licensing, development, artwork, product management, free prize support etc... > > > > Jeff wrote: > > So, is the V:EKN still a volunteer organization dedicated to promoting tournament and casual play? > > > > brandonsantacruz wrote: > > Where in that list do you see "salaries for VEKN members?" This is going off topic, so please create a new thread if you want to rant (or if others want to counter-rant). > > > It's not going off topic. If the V:EKN is intending on generating a revenue stream, is it still a volunteer-run organization? Follow the money. It should matter to content creators. > this is the general topic "ideas to develop" for the marketing team. Please, write about ideas not about something else...THX Regards Szewski

I have been thinking about the whole "starter" issue a bit. Yes 20-30$ for a deck sounds expensive at first, however it can be any deck you want. Of course you could buy a start for 10$, but: - You needed to buy at least 2 or some boosters to make a viable deck out of it - If you want to play tournaments and not be limited to very few decks you need to spend even more To me, from a standpoint of say a Magic play, it sounds pretty good to spend 200$ and have 7 decks you can win games with. If you want the old style starters with lots of suboptimal cards, well you can still buy them. Plenty of stock left. However Adonai/Jeff is making a good point. I´ll look into a way of creating a competitively priced starter set (a la 3rd), that changes every 6-12 months, that gives room for a store margin. So stores can stock and sell that (just like any other game) and there could be a way for them to get affiliate payback when people order POD.

I don't think attracting new player should be focused on. Vtes has always been bad in that b/c game is so specialized (just a good thing IMO) and hard to learn. New players might come if old players stay. That is why some new expansions and new stuff is important. Nowadays I'm all for new reprint of Netrunner but I will come back to Vtes when there is new stuff etc. I would be more interested if killing the value of collections by reprinting Enkil Cogs 0,4€ might anger lot of older players. I am not sure yet about what I think.

> Surreal wrote: > I would be more interested if killing the value of collections by reprinting Enkil Cogs 0,4€ might anger lot of older players. I am not sure yet about what I think. > PLAYERS will rejoice. COLLECTORS (of whom I know none) would be unhappy. SINGLES RESELLERS will be out of business.

> johannes wrote: > I have been thinking about the whole "starter" issue a bit. > > Yes 20-30$ for a deck sounds expensive at first, however it can be any deck you want. Of course you could buy a start for 10$, but: > - You needed to buy at least 2 or some boosters to make a viable deck out of it > - If you want to play tournaments and not be limited to very few decks you need to spend even more > > To me, from a standpoint of say a Magic play, it sounds pretty good to spend 200$ and have 7 decks you can win games with. > > If you want the old style starters with lots of suboptimal cards, well you can still buy them. Plenty of stock left. > > However Adonai/Jeff is making a good point. I´ll look into a way of creating a competitively priced starter set (a la 3rd), that changes every 6-12 months, that gives room for a store margin. So stores can stock and sell that (just like any other game) and there could be a way for them to get affiliate payback when people order POD. > best idea ever. UDHR18/19/27

> mirddes wrote: > > > johannes wrote: > > I have been thinking about the whole "starter" issue a bit. > > > > Yes 20-30$ for a deck sounds expensive at first, however it can be any deck you want. Of course you could buy a start for 10$, but: > > - You needed to buy at least 2 or some boosters to make a viable deck out of it > > - If you want to play tournaments and not be limited to very few decks you need to spend even more > > > > To me, from a standpoint of say a Magic play, it sounds pretty good to spend 200$ and have 7 decks you can win games with. > > > > If you want the old style starters with lots of suboptimal cards, well you can still buy them. Plenty of stock left. > > > > However Adonai/Jeff is making a good point. I´ll look into a way of creating a competitively priced starter set (a la 3rd), that changes every 6-12 months, that gives room for a store margin. So stores can stock and sell that (just like any other game) and there could be a way for them to get affiliate payback when people order POD. > > > best idea ever. > I've finally had a chance to take time and read this thread and all of the opinions. At the risk of a "me, too" post, I wanted to add my agreement to this - if it can be done. $25 decks wouldn't scare someone like me with my collecting habits because I'd look at it as 'getting over the hump' of acquiring sufficient copies of useful cards, after which the price of creating new deck would go way down. But unfortunately, newer player or more economy-minded players may get scared off - especially if they tend to be short-sighted about it or are unsure of their commitment to the game. Relatively cheap pre-built decks with lots of copies of staple cards would allow such players to make more modest initial investments and then tune their collections to their tastes relatively painlessly later on. If the pre-built decks don't contain copies of the chase rare cards like Enkil Cogs, that may at least politically deflect some criticism about wiping out the value of collections and destroying the singles market - although the PoD function will obviously do both, even so. I also agree with the people who say catering PoD to FLGS is hopeless, even if it would be nice. On the other hand, if Johannes can find a way to print competitively-priced pre-built decks which could be sold in stores, that at least would be something. All of this strikes me as pretty obvious (as well as late). Hope I didn't waste anyone's time. We love Mom and Apple Pie, too! Good luck, Johannes! Fred

> Non-existant user wrote: > Any reason why Gamecrafter are 10 times cheaper than the other printers? What are their minimal orders? > Production value. You are getting single-ply cardstock, meaning you can see through the cards when you hold them up to light. Professional cards are two-ply cardstock, with something in the glue between layers to block light (usually graphite or something, it's generally a trade secret.) GameCrafter is great for prototyping games and it's a great way to get a product onto a Print-on-Demand market with no capital. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.