Submission: Punitive expedition (POT rush/burn location)

Punitive expedition +1 stealth action Burn a location. Enter combat with a tapped minion. This acting vampire gets an optional maneuver during this combat. Art note: a door being slammed opened by a boot. The room inside is dark but some light penetrates through the door. WoD source: not much, it's just a general potence card. Compelling game needs: 1) Burning locations is supposed to be a potence thing, but the existing cards (Rampage, Brick laying) are weak and underplayed. It would give at least one edge to potence combat: a built-in counter to Secure Haven. 2) Potence could use some diversity. Among all combat disciplines, it is the one that does the least things outside of combat. 3) The game needs better, polyvalent anti-location cards (akin to Entrancement against allies) to balance the effect of cards like Parthenon. The only card currently close to fitting that bill is Dominate Kine but its 2 blood cost makes it too expensive to play in numbers, and it is competing with Govern for slots... We need a card that will be played so that players have to consider the risk of having their locations burnt, and for that the card must have another effect if there is no location to burn.

The idea is simple and efficient. I would also call it, a more balanced Deep Song. I especially love the +1 stealth, which is pretty useful for both side.

I don't know, to be honest. This card has an inf potence effect that just about trumps Rampage (which is a sucky card, but still) AND has an awesome superior effect for a potence discipline. To me, for a POT card, this one seems too strong (probably because of the +1 stealth thing).

I think the +1 stealth is both too good and off-theme. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > I think the +1 stealth is both too good and off-theme. > It's more like the card, especially the inferior, is too weak without +1 stealth. I don't believe it being that off-theme anyway. To open a door or pass throught a wall, Potence is not the most stealthy compared to obfuscate or protean, but it still beat regular method by a fair margin, since you don't run around with suspicious equipment and potence does make noise. (compared to explosive, heavy tool, or using a car as ram ; of course potence does not silence the thing being teared, but it does not make noise by itself)

The superior effect is identical to the basic auspex outferior version of Nose of the Hound, so its hardly anything earth shattering. But yeah the basic version wallpapers rampage, but question is, does it matter? Since rampage is only marginally better than the discplineless arson anyway.

> Kiddo wrote: > This card has an inf potence effect that just about trumps Rampage (which is a sucky card, but still) > Don't care. Rampage should never have been printed since there is already a disciplineless action thet does the same. The inferior is only what Rampage should have been to be worth the paper it is printed on. > > AND has an awesome superior effect for a potence discipline. To me, for a POT card, this one seems too strong (probably because of the +1 stealth thing). > The +1 stealth is balanced by the restriction to tapped minions only. That is a heavy restriction in the current meta: it means you cannot rush your prey's vampire before he gets to play his Villein. As it is, the card is good, but putting more than 5 or 6 in a deck would do more harm than good. If you remove the +1 stealth, then the superior just sucks: who plays Ambush except Una? It's not even worth playing as a Secure Haven counter since a chump blocker will stand in the way. Contesting the Haven remains a better plan so that's just one more wallpaper. If you remove both the +1 stealth and the restriction, then the card looks weaker but it is strictly better than a Bum's Rush so rush decks would play 15+ of it. Then the burn location effect is actually stronger because you don't care about being blocked anymore: you can just come back with the next one. That is an acceptable option (still far less broken than Deep Song ), but I was more looking at something that would be played in about the same numbers as Entrancement.

what if... Punitive expedition Do not replace until the end of the action. Burn a location. Enter combat with a tapped minion. This acting vampire gets an optional maneuver during this combat. This vampire may burn 1 blood to inflict 2 damage to a blocking minion before combat begins. ? Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> Reyda wrote: > what if... > > Punitive expedition > > Do not replace until the end of the action. > Burn a location. > Enter combat with a tapped minion. This acting vampire gets an optional maneuver during this combat. This vampire may burn 1 blood to inflict 2 damage to a blocking minion before combat begins. > > ? > I strongly dislike the idea, especially because the inferior still have no stealth whatsoever and the superior not worth playing a lot of it. But also because of needless complexity.

I agree that the +1 stealth is counter-intuitive to the discipline. > > Reyda wrote: > what if... > > Punitive expedition > > Do not replace until the end of the action. > Burn a location. > Enter combat with a tapped minion. This acting vampire gets an optional maneuver during this combat. This vampire may burn 1 blood to inflict 2 damage to a blocking minion before combat begins. > > ? > I like this one. Alternatively it could be Punitive expedition Burn a location. If this minion is blocked, neither minion may end combat as a strike in the resulting combat. Enter combat with a tapped minion. This acting vampire gets an optional maneuver during this combat. If this minion is blocked, neither minion may end combat as a strike in the resulting combat.

@Reyda, Lemminkäinen: I still keep my Secure Haven + Bum's Rushes over your cards. When you play , you don't need help punsihing the blockers, you need help getting past the chumps to the real target. Your cards don't help with that so they are not worth crippling the deck with restrictions on the rush target. There have been quite a lot of rushes printed so far, and the only playable ones on tapped minions only are the ones with built-in stealth. I am not saying it has to be stealth, but it needs to be something really strong to be worth it. "You might need one less combat card against the blocker" is not strong enough.

If people really want it not to be stealth for whatever reason, it could be that if the blocker is not ready as the end of combat the action continue as if unblocked. Or that attempting to block inflict damage to the block (and not successful block), even if it pigeonhole it to Nosferatu quite a bit.

Punitive expedition After a combat between this acting minion and a blocking minion, if blocking minion is not ready, you may continue the action as if unblocked. Burn a location. Enter combat with a tapped minion. This acting vampire gets an optional maneuver during this combat. 0 stealth, anti-chump blocker effect.

> Non-existant user wrote: > Punitive expedition > > +1 stealth action > Burn a location. > Enter combat with a tapped minion. This acting vampire gets an optional maneuver during this combat. > I really hate it when silver bullets get tacked on strong utility cards. The good decks shrug this off and the fun trick decks get randomly hosed. See also: Gremlins and, to a lesser extent, Loss.

Ok Suoli, to be honnest, in the past I tended to agree with you, with the exact same words. but now i think it's ok to see those cards on a table. And maybe a good deckbuilding choice. it's ok to see a heart of nizchetus or bowl of convergeance destroyed by a Loss. I think about this card the other way round : "destroy something annoying, and if there is nothing to destroy, well it's still a bleed for +2". I think it's also ok that gremlins destroys a gun. Because after all, if you made the choice to play gremlins over govern the unaligned, you are losing some raw power in favor of versatility and better defense. It's still a choice from your opponent, not just sheer bad luck for you. so I switched my perspective on "silver bullets". Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> Reyda wrote: > Ok Suoli, to be honnest, in the past I tended to agree with you, with the exact same words. > > but now i think it's ok to see those cards on a table. And maybe a good deckbuilding choice. > > it's ok to see a heart of nizchetus or bowl of convergeance destroyed by a Loss. I think about this card the other way round : "destroy something annoying, and if there is nothing to destroy, well it's still a bleed for +2". > Yes, it's ok to see Heart, Bowl or a single .44 get burned. Like I said, those decks will shrug it off. But casual decks with Eye of Hazimel and the like? Absolutely crushed. > I think it's also ok that gremlins destroys a gun. Because after all, if you made the choice to play gremlins over govern the unaligned, you are losing some raw power in favor of versatility and better defense. It's still a choice from your opponent, not just sheer bad luck for you. > Gremlins is good enough to be played for the stealth, not the equipment burning. This is the problem.

> Suoli wrote: > Like I said, those decks will shrug it off. But casual decks with Eye of Hazimel and the like? Absolutely crushed. > The problem with the reasoning is that your "non casual" equipment are already powerful enough to warrant the inclusion of silver bullet - think Canine Horde, or wash for locations. So your "casual" deck are already using a flawed premise anyhow. Moreover, if you do a Eye of Hazimel or Talbot Chainsaw deck, you should have backup or way to cancel problematic actions, exactly like superstar deck should have solutions to a Pentex. If a deck trust the fact that anti-location are bad to survive, then it's a metagame decision, nothing else. Especially since playables vampires have +0 stealth location destroy action.

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > Suoli wrote: > > Like I said, those decks will shrug it off. But casual decks with Eye of Hazimel and the like? Absolutely crushed. > > > The problem with the reasoning is that your "non casual" equipment are already powerful enough to warrant the inclusion of silver bullet - think Canine Horde, or wash for locations. So your "casual" deck are already using a flawed premise anyhow. > Canine Horde and Wash are not at all comparable to Gremlins or the suggested Ambush with benefits. The former are actual silver bullets, the latter are utility cards that come with free silver bullets for no significant additional cost. For another perspective, compare Domain of Evernight and Dawn Operation.

I like the original card,but I'd remove the stealth and flip the abilities. I was going to say make steal a location that costs 1 pool or less. but in the time it took to load the reply box, I realized it was better otherwise.

For my part, I like the +1 stealth original version. I think it should cost 1 blood, and I would remove the "tapped" condition at superior. Or I would simply make it a [obf][pot] card with no cost, at 1 stealth, with no restriction at superior. Something like Punitive expedition +1 stealth action Burn a location. Enter combat with a minion. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Suoli wrote: > 1Canine Horde and Wash are not at all comparable to Gremlins or the suggested Ambush with benefits. The former are actual silver bullets, the latter are utility cards that come with free silver bullets for no significant additional cost. > And ? they are used, so people have to expect see them. As far as deck building go, you don't really care all that much how the silver bullet work once it is actually used. The situation is the same as with ally on this regard : that people use very narrow card like Set's curse or very broad one like Entrancement. Also, the card can only target tapped vampire to avoid people playing too many of them, like Entrancement being suboptimal on the non-silver bullet side to avoid people playing too many of them.

> Ohlmann wrote: > And ? they are used, so people have to expect see them. As far as deck building go, you don't really care all that much how the silver bullet work once it is actually used. The situation is the same as with ally on this regard : that people use very narrow card like Set's curse or very broad one like Entrancement. > I can reasonably prepare against 1 or 2 Canine Hordes/Entrancements during the deck building phase or play around them during the actual game. I can't reasonably prepare against 8 Gremlins or play around them. > Also, the card can only target tapped vampire to avoid people playing too many of them, like Entrancement being suboptimal on the non-silver bullet side to avoid people playing too many of them. > Targeting a tapped vampire is not a big enough draw back. Dominate Kine, for example, is much more reasonable while being completely playable.

> Suoli wrote: > I can reasonably prepare against 1 or 2 Canine Hordes/Entrancements during the deck building phase or play around them during the actual game. I can't reasonably prepare against 8 Gremlins or play around them. > I am simply unconvinced both by the fact that people would play 8 of this rush and that you cannot build and play around it. Especially in the present case, where using the rush part may often became mandatory to bleed off combat card anyhow. > Suoli wrote: > Targeting a tapped vampire is not a big enough draw back. Dominate Kine, for example, is much more reasonable while being completely playable. > Well, people don't exactly often play dominate kine, and in very sparse number. For me, Dominate Kine show why thoses card must be more polyvalent, not an example of balance. Also, then again, the other use is a rush, and combat deck are notoriously prone to card jam by VtES design. Versatility is very much needed for them.

I think there's just a better way to do this card. And yes, I don't like power creep utility unless theme is strongly supported and/or pred/prey dynamic is supported. So while I appreciate card multi-functionality, I like a few more restrictions so it isn't just strictly better. I want to add value, while appreciating the past card pool. In this case, the previous main templates are Arson, Rampage, and Smash & Grab. Arson has no requirements, but no redraw until end of action. Smash & Grab needs pot & limits targeting for +1 stealth. Rampage just needs pot, but offers no superior discipline benefit. Given the theme here is "Punitive" as in revenge, I think I'll go with S&G's pred/prey target limitation. Bruise always has a problem with chump blocking. This is where people often find that it's not worth the bother. This is where I want the card to be special; this is where my power clause will be. Having such a power clause might need a restriction to tamp it down. I reserve a "do not replace" clause here. I want to add rush for card flexibility. The pool of Bum's Rush, Ambush, and Harass should be at least equalled. However, unless I'm adding more power to rush (which I don't want), I'm going to hold this rush effect at basic pot so as to be easier to cycle. Bruise "power clauses" in consideration: 1) untap if blocked; 2) chump blocker "destruction" - 2a) outright minion dunk/burn before combat, 2b) burn through dunking, 2c) dunk triggers Meth pain, like pool loss; 3) action continues through blocker, and 4) other as yet determined. I kinda want it to go into combat, so 2a is out. Option 3, while strong, thematically removes the whole agonizing choice of bruise. I sorta like 1, but it might not be powerful enough... it still leaves chump blocking as not a painful choice. I'm going to start the card off strong with 1 & 2b for the power clause and tone down from there: Punitive "Excursion" (not trying to step on author's toes here) Action Do not replace until end of turn. Untap the acting minion if blocked (before combat). Blocking vampires with capacity 4 or less and blocking imbued are burned instead of going to torpor or incapacitated region this action. Enter combat with a ready minion controlled by another Methuselah. Burn a location controlled by your prey or predator. The bruise clause is pretty strong -- but that's deliberate -- so I'm leaving out maneuver or press on the rush for now. The untap makes the choice to block weigh more on the blocker (not the actor), again deliberate, stressing the opponent's faustian decision. Further, bruise needs a way to recoup actions lost to blocks so as to stay relevant. However, the clause is admittedly strong, so I DNR till end of turn. This way it doesn't replace other rush cards. Rush doesn't like hand anchors. Spamming it like Deep Song is not what I want to achieve. Playing it perhaps once or twice a turn though sounds fine. It serves a niche, with real strength, and still allows coexistence. Changing DNR to end of action or next untap would depend on playtesting it's strength.

> Ankha wrote: > Punitive expedition > +1 stealth action > Burn a location. > Enter combat with a minion. > This is the best version yet. The stealth is appropriate with Obf, not just Pot. Overall: I´d try not to powercreep Potence combat in this kind of way. There is really no need. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > Overall: I´d try not to powercreep Potence combat in this kind of way. There is really no need. > And that's why good card should be reserved to the clan that already have access to powerful card like Carrion crow and Deep song.

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > Ashur wrote: > > Overall: I´d try not to powercreep Potence combat in this kind of way. There is really no need. > > > And that's why good card should be reserved to the clan that already have access to powerful card like Carrion crow and Deep song. > Reserved? Who said reserved? Anyone with pot+obf could play this card right? 84 vampires who are not Nos or !Nos? I´m sure you get my point about theme if you really try. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > Reserved? Who said reserved? Anyone with pot+obf could play this card right? 84 vampires who are not Nos or !Nos? > Because of course people want to play brujah or Lasombra with obfuscate, like they absolutely want to play brujah with dominate. Sarcasm aside, Potence + Obfuscate is strongly linked to animalism, you will hacve an hard time to deny it. So deck who are already "rich" with the very strong deep song, and animalism blocking ability will gain this in addition to everything they got. Non-nosferatu deck will have a lot of trouble to use the card. So it would be a complete miss for me. > Ashur wrote: > I´m sure you get my point about theme if you really try. > The other way around is true too : both on thematic and gameplay level there is no reason to say potence action should never be stealthy, and you could admit that. Next stop you will say Templar and archon should require obfuscate because they are +1 stealth rush ?

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > Ashur wrote: > > Reserved? Who said reserved? Anyone with pot+obf could play this card right? 84 vampires who are not Nos or !Nos? > > > Because of course people want to play brujah or Lasombra with obfuscate, like they absolutely want to play brujah with dominate. > Is this some kind of argument? YES, I like to play Brujah with dominate! > Ohlmann wrote: > Sarcasm aside, Potence + Obfuscate is strongly linked to animalism, you will hacve an hard time to deny it. So deck who are already "rich" with the very strong deep song, and animalism blocking ability will gain this in addition to everything they got. Non-nosferatu deck will have a lot of trouble to use the card. So it would be a complete miss for me. > What has Nos having access to Deep Song to do with this card? I play 14 Deep Song in some decks, and I would trade NONE of those Deep Songs-slots for this card in that deck (or any deck I guess) > Ohlmann wrote: > > > Ashur wrote: > > I´m sure you get my point about theme if you really try. > > > The other way around is true too : both on thematic and gameplay level there is no reason to say potence action should never be stealthy, and you could admit that. Next stop you will say Templar and archon should require obfuscate because they are +1 stealth rush ? > The understanding of what is themeatically correct is pretty low at this forum. People seem more interested in powercreeping the game than understanding the original game. Potence is a displine that is all about brute force. Vampires with just potence and no sneaky tricks like obf don´t go around tip-toeing - if they want a building destroyed they just destroy it. Or at least this is my take on potence. This leads to that I also have problems with the +2/+3 stealth on Preternatural Strenght/Heroic Might. I don´t "see" what is happening, immersion-wise, when Jimmy Dunn gets Heroic Might in the same way that I see what is happening when a methuselah pull some strings to get Jimmy Dunn a .44 Magnum. BUT I do also understand game play. All theme aside I think the great stealth on these actions is good for the game! Your Templar/Archon-analogy I don´t understand at all. Templars and Archons are sneaky guys or guys that has a great network of sneaky underlings, so I think it makes sense that they can find you and attack you with stealth. (Sorry if this post offends some people that think VTES is "just a game", "just some cards" or so. I think much of the fun with VTES is that it´s not just numbers, icons and calculation. Sorry) "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > Is this some kind of argument? YES, I like to play Brujah with dominate! > ... And you suppose every brujah deck should have Dominate to have access to decent cards ? I suppose not. It's the same thing here. user in general lack versatile card, not just nosferatu or vampires. > Ashur wrote: > Potence is a displine that is all about brute force. Vampires with just potence and no sneaky tricks like obf don´t go around tip-toeing - if they want a building destroyed they just destroy it. Or at least this is my take on potence. > Despite what you say, this show you don't have a better understanding of potence than anybody else here. Potence does not shrink your brain in any way, does not make noise when activated, and does not put you into a berserker rage. In fact, Obtenetration is often way more obvious than Potence, what with the thick black dot that you cannit breathe into and which make human panick. What it does allow you is to hit unnaturally hard. Whether you use it to be the Hulk and warn everybody of your presence, or to create tunnel throught a wall to enter stealthily somewhere is up to the vampire, which can be intelligent and deft without having obfuscate. Please note that a lot of directed actions are stealthy without needing surnatural power. You don't have a very strong case of Potence being flashy, so it can be normal stealth strategy made possible by the shortcut you can do with potence. > Ashur wrote: > Your Templar/Archon-analogy I don´t understand at all. Templars and Archons are sneaky guys or guys that has a great network of sneaky underlings, so I think it makes sense that they can find you and attack you with stealth > ... And then again you're wrong. Templar and Archon can attack people because they have the autority to do so. The most likely lore reason for which they have +1 stealth when doing so is that they don't have to announce themselves and have the autority to prevent most vampires from talking about their presences.

> Ohlmann wrote: > What it does allow you is to hit unnaturally hard. Whether you use it to be the Hulk and warn everybody of your presence, or to create tunnel throught a wall to enter stealthily somewhere is up to the vampire, which can be intelligent and deft without having obfuscate. > With this kind of argumentation we soon have every sort of ability in every discipline. I say no thanks to that. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."