[EC 2012] Can you answer these?

(From LCQ): Vast Wealth: Do you show the cards of your library until you find an equipment? Taste of Vitae: Can iy be played against an ally? Baltimore PUrge: Can it send a vampire with a Secure Haven on him to torpor? Carrion Crows: If I play Majesty, will I take the 2R damage? If I play a Dodge against Muddled Vampire Hunter's strike (first strike), will I take his punch? Mylan: If I untap someone else's vampire with Mylan, is that a D action against them? Renegade Garou: Is its additional strike mandatory? Withdraw: If I withdraw, does my predator gain 0.5 VP? Conditioning: If my Conditioning is DI'd, can I play Bonding? Can I attempt to block twice with the same minion (I attempt a first time, fail due to a lack of intercept, attempt with another minion, fail, but in the meantime got cards for the first one)? Fizzle: Do I have to pay the cost of an action that would fizzle (missing blood to pay for the action card)? Bahari: If I banish a Bahari, and he comes back, is he still Bahari? Shepherd's Innocence: Is it a D action against those who control an appropriate ally / retainer? Goratrix: Can he steal life from allies? FBI: FBI is in play, my ally would burn and I play Left for Dead. Does FBI trigger? Temptation: Can Shalmath use his untap ability as he is stolen by Temptation? Lutz: Does Lutz's ability trigger on a successfilly passing referendum? Tangle Atropo's Hand: At basic potence, can I perform the same action ? Abactor: Can I tap Heidelberg Castle before the blood hunt and after gaining the blood from successful Abactor? X Justcar: Can I play Gangrel Justicar if I control a Gangrel Justicar? Year of Fortunes: I played a Year of Fortunes and chose someone else. Then I got ousted. Do they still get +1 handsize? Anathema: I played Anathema on my prey's vampire. I then get ousted Does Anathema stay in play?

Vast wealth : No, you do not show cards Taste of Vitae : No you cannot taste an ally Baltimore : depends if the methuselah playing baltimore purge is having a ready lasombra or not. If he does, i think he cannot choose vampire with secure heaven to go down. If he does not, however, i believe that the controler of the secure heaven'd vampire can choose him to go to torpor Carrion crows : no, you do not get 2r Muddled : no, dodge dodges his strike Mylan : Yes, it is a D action Garou : yes, it is mandatory Withdraw : Lmao Conditioning : yes Blocking twice with the same : No Fizzle : yes, you pay Bahari : yes he remains a bahari when he comes back Shepherd's innocence : yes, it is a D action Goratrix : yes, he can steal life from allies : > >Does Goratrix's special ability work on Allies? Yes. You can steal blood from allies (e.g. Theft of Vitae). They lose life instead. See [6.4.5] and the example. (Stealing blood from an ally.) FBI : no, it does not triger, per "left for dead text" Shalmath : yes, he can untap Lutz : does not compute teh question lol TAngle : yes, it can be attempted again Abactor : No, heidelberg cannot be used until action is over Justicar : yes, you can year of fortune : no, when you are ousted, card goes with you Anathema : yes, anathema stays

I think you can attempt as many blocking attempt with as many minions you want as long they are not disqualified (via elder impersonation for example).

> Vast Wealth: Do you show the cards of your library until you find an equipment? > It doesn't say reveal the cards, so no. > Taste of Vitae: Can iy be played against an ally? > No, even though the card text is not really clear about this. > Baltimore PUrie: Can it send a vampire with a Secure Haven on him? > Yes. Secure Haven only disallows D-actions which Baltimore Purge is not. Neither is choosing a vampire. > Carrion Crows: If I play Majesty, will I take the 2R damage? > Of course not. > If I play a Dodge against Muddled Vampire Hunter's strike (first strike), will I take his punch? > No. First strike is actually "third strike" (combat ends > dodge > first strike > regular strike). > Mylan: If I untap someone else's vampire with Mylan, is that a D action against them? > Yes. > Renegade Garou: Is its addiotional strike mandatory? > Yes. Card text is pretty clear about this (the maneuver is explicitly optional). > Withdraw: If I withdraw, does my predator gain 0.5 VP? > No. Why would he? > Conditioning: If my Conditioning is DI'd, can I play Bonding? > Yes. The ruling is that the Conditioning is played, but not resolved. Since it doesn't resolve, its card text that would disallow the bonding doesn't kick in. > Can I attempt to block twice with the same minion (I attempt a first time, fail due to a lack of intercept, attempt with another minion, fail, but in the meantime got cards for the first one)? > Sure. Unless of course there was a Faceless Night or a block fails involved. > Fizzle: Do I have to pay the cost of an action that would fizzle (missing blood to pay for the action card)? > Yes, you pay as much as you can. > Bahari: If I banish a Bahari, and he comes back, is he still Bahari? > Banishment card text: the Bahari counter stays. > Shepherd's Innocence: Is it a D action against those who control an appropriate ally / retainer? > Yes. It's not Magic where the "all" clause goes around cards that can't be targeted. If it targets you or something you control, it's a D action. > Goratrix: Can he steal life from allies? > Yes he can. His special text is worded exactly the same as Theft of Vitae and you can steal life with that just fine. It should really say "blood or life" on the card though, because as it stands it's a ruling that overruled game mechanics. > FBI: FBI is in play, my ally would burn and I play Left for Dead. Does FBI trigger? > No. Left for Dead's card text is pretty clear. "The ally is not burned". > Temptation: Can Shalmath use his untap ability as he is stolen by Temptation? > No he can't. There is no "stack" in VTES. When I steal you with Temptation's counters there is no window to react in as there is no "my card gets stolen" window by default. (Diamond Thunderbolt creates such a window though) Shalmath's new controller can use the ability just fine, of course. > Lutz: Does Lutz's ability trigger on a successfilly passing referendum? > It's right there on the card. "your prey burns a pool each time the referendum of a political action passes." > Tangle Atropo's Hand: At basic potence, can I perform the same action ? > Yes you can. The action is cancelled and NRA only triggers on succesfull actions (similar to how DI works). > Abactor: Can I tap Heidelberg Castle before the blood hunt and after gaining the blood from successful Abactor? > Heidelberg: "Cannot be used during an action". Since the bloodhunt is part of the actions, this seems pretty clear. No you can't. > X Justcar: Can I play Gangrel Justicar if I control a Gangrel Justicar? > Yes. I believe the official loophole is that the current Gangrel Justicar has to give up his title before receiving the new one, but can still use his 3 votes in the referendum. > Year of Fortunes: I played a Year of Fortunes and chose someone else. Then I got ousted. Do they still get +1 handsize? > When you are ousted all cards you control leave play. So the quesion is, do you control the Year of Fortune. I personally think you don't, so it stays. > Anathema: I played Anathema on my prey's vampire. I then get ousted Does Anathema stay in play? > If the answer to the above is correct, then this one should follow the same ruling, so it stays. Of course, if the Year of Fortune goes, then Anathema goes as well by the same logic.

@ Izaak I am not sure you are right about baltimore purge... would you then argue that a minion with secure heaven can be chosen for superior Tount the caged beast??? [ANI] Choose a ready vampire controlled by your predator and another controlled by your prey (not usable when only one other Methuselah is in the game). The chosen vampires enter combat. If only one is ready at the end of that combat, he or she gains 4 blood. Also, i understood that new controler of the temptationed shalmath asks weather he can untap him by his card text, my abd... Also, imho, year of fortune is different than anathema : Anathema is put ON ANOTHER VAMPIRE. And since it is not a master card, now that methusaleh controls it. Year of fortune is "put in play", and as you put it, i would argue that youa re the controler, and it goes with you. I can see reasoning otherwise tho

I think it's different. Baltimore Purge puts the card in play. This is not a action, since it doesn't target anything. Then during your untap phase, Baltimore Purge's effect triggers, which makes you choose vampires. I don't see anything in Secure Haven's card text that would disallow this. You can choose a Secure Haven'd vampire as target for a Banishment too, so why not for Baltimore Purge? With Taunt the Caged Beast I'm not so sure. The superior version lacks the symbol (which the inferior has) which makes me believe it's not intended as a action and therefore Secure Haven should not protect against it. Then again, I also believe you have to choose the targets as you announce the action and IIRC there is a ruling that says that choosing something is the same as targeting it, so that turns the superior into a action which Secure Haven protects against. That said, just from the two card texts I'd argue that you can choose a Secure Haven'd vampire with Taunt the Cages beast at ANI, yes. > Anathema is put ON ANOTHER VAMPIRE. And since it is not a master card, now that methusaleh controls it. > > Year of fortune is "put in play", and as you put it, i would argue that youa re the controler, and it goes with you. I can see reasoning otherwise tho > It seems minion cards that are put "into play" are by default controlled by the person who played it: The same question for Rumors of Gehenna. Therefore the Year of Fortune goes.

Hmmm... i see 2 different scenarios with baltimore purge : 1. Acting methuselah does not control a ready Lasombra , some other methuselach controls a vampire with Secure heaven on. It is my belief that methuselah with a vampire with Secure heaven CAN choose that vampire for the effect of Baltimore purge (for instance, if he owns 2 vampires, and other one has fame). 2. Acting Methuselah that plays baltimore purge controls a ready Lasombra : in that case, he chooses who goes to torpor, and taht makes it a D against the vampire, so secure heaven protects... I am sure Pascal will enlighten us

> Izaak wrote: > With Taunt the Caged Beast I'm not so sure. The superior version lacks the symbol (which the inferior has) which makes me believe it's not intended as a action and therefore Secure Haven should not protect against it. > The rules for determining whether or not an action was directed changed after Taunt the Caged Beast was printed. LSJ March 1, 2009 Taunt the Caged Beast is a directed action at every level. Rules Team Rulings 08-08-2008 LSJ November 20, 2008

> Pendargon wrote: > i see 2 different scenarios with baltimore purge : > Baltimore Purge puts a card in play on the actor. It never targets something controlled by another player. It is never a directed action. > Card wrote: > Put this card on the acting vampire. >

> Izaak wrote: > > > Can I attempt to block twice with the same minion (I attempt a first time, fail due to a lack of intercept, attempt with another minion, fail, but in the meantime got cards for the first one)? > > > Sure. Unless of course there was a Faceless Night or a block fails involved. > Faceless Night does not tap minions that attempted to block until the action succeeds. A minion attempt to block, then another minion may attempt to block, then the first minion again until the action is blocked or all attempts fail. None of the minions attempting to block become tapped by Faceless Night until the action resolves. > LSJ wrote: > The current wording avoids that troublesome/inconsistent timing issue: > "[OBF] +1 stealth, and any minion who attempts to block this action and fails > becomes tapped when the action is resolved (before resolving the action)." > Faceless Night +1 stealth. +1 stealth, and any minion who attempts to block this action and fails becomes tapped when the action is resolved (before resolving the action).

> Pascal wrote: > (From LCQ): > > Vast Wealth: Do you show the cards of your library until you find an equipment? > No. You don't show cards when you "search" (unless specified, as usual). > > Pascal wrote: > Taste of Vitae: Can iy be played against an ally? > No. It reads "opposing vampire". > > Pascal wrote: > Baltimore PUrge: Can it send a vampire with a Secure Haven on him to torpor? > Yes. Baltimore Purge is an undirected action. Its effect during the untap phase is NOT an action, so Secure Haven's cardtext doesn'prevent this. > > Pascal wrote: > Carrion Crows: If I play Majesty, will I take the 2R damage? > No. > > Pascal wrote: > If I play a Dodge against Muddled Vampire Hunter's strike (first strike), will I take his punch? > No. Dodge beats anything against the dodging vampire, *INCLUDING* S:CEs such as Blissful Agony or Catatonic Fear. > > Pascal wrote: > Mylan: If I untap someone else's vampire with Mylan, is that a D action against them? > Yes, as it targets a card controlled by that Methuselah. > > Pascal wrote: > Renegade Garou: Is its additional strike mandatory? > Yes, as it is not "optional". > > Pascal wrote: > Withdraw: If I withdraw, does my predator gain 0.5 VP? > No. > > Pascal wrote: > Conditioning: If my Conditioning is DI'd, can I play Bonding? > Yes. Nothing prevents that. > > Pascal wrote: > Can I attempt to block twice with the same minion (I attempt a first time, fail due to a lack of intercept, attempt with another minion, fail, but in the meantime got cards for the first one)? > Yes. > > Pascal wrote: > Fizzle: Do I have to pay the cost of an action that would fizzle (missing blood to pay for the action card)? > Yes. You must pay as much as you can. > > Pascal wrote: > Bahari: If I banish a Bahari, and he comes back, is he still Bahari? > Yes. Also notice: there is (and never was) such a thing as a Bahari counter. > > Pascal wrote: > Shepherd's Innocence: Is it a D action against those who control an appropriate ally / retainer? > Yes, an action is D against all the controlers of the targets. > > Pascal wrote: > Goratrix: Can he steal life from allies? > Yes. "steal blood" steals life from allies. > > Pascal wrote: > FBI: FBI is in play, my ally would burn and I play Left for Dead. Does FBI trigger? > No. > > Pascal wrote: > Temptation: Can Shalmath use his untap ability as he is stolen by Temptation > No. Taking control of a Temptated vampire is instantanous. > > Pascal wrote: > Lutz: Does Lutz's ability trigger on a successfilly passing referendum? > Yes. > > Pascal wrote: > Tangle Atropo's Hand: At basic potence, can I perform the same action ? > Yes. We didn't reach the resolution, so the NRA doesn't kick in. Important: NRA kicks in as soon as we reach resolution, and NOT successfull resolution, as someone wrote above. If they block your Govern bleed, Owain can't Freak Drive and Govern Bleed again. > > Pascal wrote: > Abactor: Can I tap Heidelberg Castle before the blood hunt and after gaining the blood from successful Abactor? > No. > > Pascal wrote: > X Justcar: Can I play Gangrel Justicar if I control a Gangrel Justicar? > Yes. However, you can either choose a Camarila Gangrel controlled by another Methuselah, or your Gangrel Justicar. you can't choose another Gangrel you control - that could lead to self-contesting) > > Pascal wrote: > Year of Fortunes: I played a Year of Fortunes and chose someone else. Then I got ousted. Do they still get +1 handsize? > No. That card was removed from the game. > > Pascal wrote: > Anathema: I played Anathema on my prey's vampire. I then get ousted Does Anathema stay in play? > Yes; It is controlled by the controler of the vampire it is on.

And more questions from EC Day 1 Is superior Renewed Vigor a D action when played on someone else? Can I withdraw in a duel if I already have 2 VPs, in order to give my predator 1 VP? Can I play VIsit from the Capuchin if I already control a Visit from the Capuchin with 1 counter? Can I tap a tapped vampire with Anarch Troublemaker? If two players are contesting Pentex, and I play mine, am I contesting it too? If a player who successfully called an odd number of Reversal of Fortunes is ousted, do we keep the curent turn order, or do we switch back to normal? Can I have 2 Call the Great Beast on the same vampire? Can a Warghoul with Pentex burn a location per its cardtext? If I play Spirit Marionette on a vampire with Pentex Subversion, what happens? Can I play The Missing Voice, and then Virtuosa? Can a tapped imbued use Champion? Does a Seduction on a Secure Haven'd vampire cost pool? If a Sabbat Ravnos creates an Embrace, is the Embrace Sabbat? Can I play an "attempt to block" card on an action I can't block? (Sense the Savage Way, for instance) Is the Embrace of an Assamite blood cursed? Can I convert an anarch vampire? When do I remove the cards for Trochomancy? Can I tap the Dreams of the SPhinx during my untap phase, then untap it as normal, and then tap it again? What happens if I play Eternals of Sirius when I have 4 pool (and choose to gain the pool) ? Can I play Eternals of Sirius on 3 pool? Can I forfeit the game if I already have 3 VPs? Do I gain the blood from Madrigal if the referendum is Delayed? Can I play Delaying Tactics anytime during the polling? Do I have to name the target card for Sargon Fragment's action? Do I have to name the card for Mistress Fanchon(s ability? Can I use Andre Leroux's abilty more than once per turn? (on different bleeds)? Can I burn the Warghoul during an Entrancement action targetting it? Can I play Liquidation if I have less than 7 cards in my library? an I play VOter Captivaion after Freak Drive? I play superior Terror Frenzy. They play Target Vitals, which I cancel; Do they burn blood ? Tryphosa is in play. If my Malkavian's bleed is blocked, do i burn 1 blood? Can I tap the Coven during Damage resolutiopn? Does the Call the Great Beast card contest a summoned Great Beast? Vaticination / Le Dinh To / Revelations: Do I get to see the replaced card? Marcianna Giovanni: Does she burn 1 blood on a normal bleed action? Temptatoon of Greater Power: Is there a bidding order? Casting votes / ballots: Can I change my votes / ballots after casting them in some direction? If I play Breath of the Dragon at close range, and Rotschreck, do I take the agg? Does Fall of the Camarilla remain in play if there are only 2 other Gehenna in play? My Villein is canceled by Bleeding the Vine. I play a Wider View. Do I get an extra MPA? Can I play more than 1 Torn Signpost each combat?

> Is superior Renewed Vigor a D action when played on someone else? > It targets something controlled by someone else, so yes. Similar to crosstable torpor rescue. > Can I withdraw in a duel if I already have 2 VPs, in order to give my predator 1 VP? > Yes, but only if doing so would give you the Gamewin. (Which, when you already have 2 VPs, it does). > Can I play VIsit from the Capuchin if I already control a Visit from the Capuchin with 1 counter? > It's unique and you're not allowed to self-contest, so no. > Can I tap a tapped vampire with Anarch Troublemaker? > Sure. You can tap stuff that's already tapped, except when the tap is a cost. > If two players are contesting Pentex, and I play mine, am I contesting it too? > Obviously, yes. > If a player who successfully called an odd number of Reversal of Fortunes is ousted, do we keep the curent turn order, or do we switch back to normal? > Reversal of Fortunes doesn't go into play, so you keep the current turn order. > Can I have 2 Call the Great Beast on the same vampire? > Sure. It's not unique and there is no card text preventing it. Why you would want to remains the question, of course. > Can a Warghoul with Pentex burn a location per its cardtext? > Yes. Pentex only prevents acting and blocking. You can still play reaction cards, combat cards (if you would somehow enter combat) and use special abilities. The location burn is not an action, so it can be used. > If I play Spirit Marionette on a vampire with Pentex Subversion, what happens? > You gain control of it, must bleed, but it can't act, so it does nothing. It goes back to its original controller after the next action, which may be in the current turn or never again if nobody at the table acts anymore. > Can I play The Missing Voice, and then Virtuosa? > That depends. At mel, yes you can. It's just an action modifier. At MEL, no you can't because it needs to be played as the action is announced which has passed when you played The Missing Voice. (I guess, technically you could play The Missing Voice in the as announced window as well, hoping to topdeck the Virtuosa, but I doubt that was the case here and I'm not even sure that's legal) > Can a tapped imbued use Champion? > The effect is a reaction. To able to use reactions you need to be either untapped or under some Wake-effect. So without any cards, no it can't. On the Qui Vive would solve your problem, obviously. > Does a Seduction on a Secure Haven'd vampire cost pool? > Since when is Seduction a master card? No. > If a Sabbat Ravnos creates an Embrace, is the Embrace Sabbat? > Yes. Embrace copies clan and sect, but not traits (Black Hand, Anarch) > Can I play an "attempt to block" card on an action I can't block? (Sense the Savage Way, for instance) > No. Same reason you can't flush a Second Tradition on a crosstable action (unless you're Anneke, but then you actually have to block too) > Is the Embrace of an Assamite blood cursed? > No. Embrace copies clan and sect only. > Can I convert an anarch vampire? > Yes. You can target an Anarch with Anarch Convert. > When do I remove the cards for Trochomancy? > When you play it. "Remove to get +1 bleed", so the removing of the cards is an additional cost. Ie, if you get bounced, it still removes the cards of the person that bounced it. > Can I tap the Dreams of the SPhinx during my untap phase, then untap it as normal, and then tap it again? > No. The first thing that happens in your untap phase is that all cards are untapped. There is no window before that to do something. > What happens if I play Eternals of Sirius when I have 4 pool (and choose to gain the pool) ? > Paying and resolving happens at the same time, so you pay 4 and gain 5, putting you at 5 pool. > Can I play Eternals of Sirius on 3 pool? > Nope. You can't try to play something you can't pay. > Can I forfeit the game if I already have 3 VPs? > Yes. You have the Gamewin and the tournament rules say that once you have the gamewin you can whatever the hell you want to do. > Do I gain the blood from Madrigal if the referendum is Delayed? > That depends. If someone immediately plays the Delaying Tactics, the referendum ends right there. Otherwise, Madrigal doesn't specify a timing window (like, when the results are tallied or something), so its effect takes place immidiately upon casting the vote. > Can I play Delaying Tactics anytime during the polling? > Yes. > Do I have to name the target card for Sargon Fragment's action? > Yes. > Do I have to name the card for Mistress Fanchon(s ability? > No. This is kinda odd, but I think the difference between this and Sargon Fragment is that Sargon Fragmens says "a" minion card and Fanchon says "any" minion card. > Can I use Andre Leroux's abilty more than once per turn? (on different bleeds)? > Yes. > Can I burn the Warghoul during an Entrancement action targetting it? > With his location burn special? Yes you can. > Can I play Liquidation if I have less than 7 cards in my library? > No. "Burn 7 cards to..." implies the burning of 7 cards is an additional cost and you can't play cards you can't afford. > Can I play VOter Captivaion after Freak Drive? > Yes. > I play superior Terror Frenzy. They play Target Vitals, which I cancel; Do they burn blood ? > Yes, for two reasons. The first one is that the extra blood you have to burn for Terror Frenzy is not actually a cost, but a burb blood effect. If you'd have no blood, you could still play the Target Vitals and just fail to burn the blood. The second reason is that *if* it would have been a cost, the cost of cancelled cards is by default paid, unless the cancelling card specifies otherwise. > Tryphosa is in play. If my Malkavian's bleed is blocked, do i burn 1 blood? > No. Actions are only paid if succesfull. Tryphosa just adds 1 to the cost of bleed actions, but if the action doesn't reach resolution, the (increased) cost is not paid. > Can I tap the Coven during Damage resolutiopn? > I guess so, yes. > Does the Call the Great Beast card contest a summoned Great Beast? > Wait, what? How do you summon a Great Beast? Summon at TEM searches your ashheap or Crypt, neither of which can have a Great Beast in it. Call the Great beast's card text turns *the actual card* into the vampire, and once it hits the ashheap, it just becomes the action card again. So, whatever prompted this quesion must have been preceded by illegal play. > Vaticination / Le Dinh To / Revelations: Do I get to see the replaced card? > Nope, unfortunately not. > Marcianna Giovanni: Does she burn 1 blood on a normal bleed action? > Sure. A "normal" bleed action is still a bleed action. > Temptatoon of Greater Power: Is there a bidding order? > No, I don't believe there is. It's a bit of a freeform auction format. Compare to Malkavian Time Auction, which specifies a bidding order. > Casting votes / ballots: Can I change my votes / ballots after casting them in some direction? > No. Rulebook 6.3.2.2: Once a vote or a ballot has been cast, however, it cannot be changed > If I play Breath of the Dragon at close range, and Rotschreck, do I take the agg? > No. Combat doesn't reach the damage resolution stage. > Does Fall of the Camarilla remain in play if there are only 2 other Gehenna in play? > Yes. The 3 Gehenna Cards in play are just a requirement to play the card, not to have it stick around. > My Villein is canceled by Bleeding the Vine. I play a Wider View. Do I get an extra MPA? > Sure, why not? Bleeding the Vine cancels the Villein and then gives you a new MPA. Wider View is then the first trifle that resolves, so it gives you another MPA. > Can I play more than 1 Torn Signpost each combat? > Yes, but all it does is repeatedly set your strength to 3 (or 2)

> Izaak wrote: > > > Does the Call the Great Beast card contest a summoned Great Beast? > > > Wait, what? How do you summon a Great Beast? Summon at TEM searches your ashheap or Crypt, neither of which can have a Great Beast in it. Call the Great beast's card text turns *the actual card* into the vampire, and once it hits the ashheap, it just becomes the action card again. > I believe the question is, a player have a finished Great beast (the clanless vampire is in play), and another Call the Great Beast is played. My bet would be that no until the summoning is finished, because the clanless vampire name is "The Great Beast", not "Calling the Great Beast)

Ooooooh right. I get it Then the answer is no, it doesn't contest. The card isn't unique until it's a vampire.

There´s a bidding order by using Temptation of Greater Power. If I don´t remember wrong is the same order as Malkavian Time Auction. Begins on the left player of whom played the card an goes on.

On the other side I´m not shure you can use the coven to fill with blood on damage step resolution, because with Heidelburg Castle you shurely are not allowed to do this and the situations look quite simmilar.

Terror frenzy says the cost increases by one, not burn one additional blood to play combat card. So, I bet you don´t pay if the target vitals is cancelled.

> There´s a bidding order by using Temptation of Greater Power. > You got any reference for this? Because there is no ruling for ToGP and I can't find anything in the rules for auctioning-type cards. I mean, I'm willing to believe that there is a bidding order, but I have never actually played the card like that (neither have I seen it played like that). > On the other side I´m not shure you can use the coven to fill with blood on damage step resolution, because with Heidelburg Castle you shurely are not allowed to do this and the situations look quite simmilar. > That's because Heidelberg specifically disallows this by its card text (not during an action, combat is part of the action). > Terror frenzy says the cost increases by one, not burn one additional blood to play combat card. So, I bet you don´t pay if the target vitals is cancelled. > Hmm yes, I just noticed the official card text is indeed different than the text on the actual card. So Target Vitals costs 1. Still, cost is by default not retrieved unless the canceller specifically says so, which Target Vitals doesn't. So even if it's cancelled, you have to pay for it. For the same reason you dont get refunded your master card if it's cancelled with Santaleous' special.

In the old days you could do it with the old Heidelburg Castle (not Heidelberg Castle !!!! which is the new one), so I thought the implemented a general rule for this cases instead of correcting the card. With target vitals, almost probably that you are also right, because the situation is the simmilar to the use of death-seeker.

> Pascal wrote: > And more questions from EC Day 1 > > Is superior Renewed Vigor a D action when played on someone else? > Yes. > > Pascal wrote: > Can I withdraw in a duel if I already have 2 VPs, in order to give my predator 1 VP? > Yes, but the other player stil has to try to oust you. > > Pascal wrote: > Can I play VIsit from the Capuchin if I already control a Visit from the Capuchin with 1 counter? > No. This is a self-contest secnario, which isn't allowed by the rules. > > Pascal wrote: > Can I tap a tapped vampire with Anarch Troublemaker? > Yes. > > Pascal wrote: > If two players are contesting Pentex, and I play mine, am I contesting it too? > Yes. > > Pascal wrote: > If a player who successfully called an odd number of Reversal of Fortunes is ousted, do we keep the curent turn order, or do we switch back to normal? > Keep as it is. > > Pascal wrote: > Can I have 2 Call the Great Beast on the same vampire? > Yes. > > Pascal wrote: > Can a Warghoul with Pentex burn a location per its cardtext? > Yes. > > Pascal wrote: > If I play Spirit Marionette on a vampire with Pentex Subversion, what happens? > You take control of him until the end of the next action. He can't act, so the next action will be some other vampire's next action. > > Pascal wrote: > Can I play The Missing Voice, and then Virtuosa? > TMV + base Virtuosa, yes. TMV + sup Virtuosa: No. > > Pascal wrote: > Can a tapped imbued use Champion? > Only if he is under the effect of On the Qui Vive. > > Pascal wrote: > Does a Seduction on a Secure Haven'd vampire cost pool? > No. > > Pascal wrote: > If a Sabbat Ravnos creates an Embrace, is the Embrace Sabbat? > No. Embrace copies clan and takes default sect, per cardtext. > > Pascal wrote: > Can I play an "attempt to block" card on an action I can't block? (Sense the Savage Way, for instance) > No. > > Pascal wrote: > Is the Embrace of an Assamite blood cursed? > No (since quite some time, now). > > Pascal wrote: > Can I convert an anarch vampire? > Only if he isn't titled. > > Pascal wrote: > When do I remove the cards for Trochomancy? > When you play it. > > Pascal wrote: > Can I tap the Dreams of the SPhinx during my untap phase, then untap it as normal, and then tap it again? > No. Normal untap is the first thing to happen during your untap phase. > > Pascal wrote: > What happens if I play Eternals of Sirius when I have 4 pool (and choose to gain the pool) ? > You have 5 pool. > > Pascal wrote: > Can I play Eternals of Sirius on 3 pool? > No. > > Pascal wrote: > Can I forfeit the game if I already have 3 VPs? > Yes (since this is a GW) > > Pascal wrote: > Do I gain the blood from Madrigal if the referendum is Delayed? > No. > > Pascal wrote: > Can I play Delaying Tactics anytime during the polling? > Yes. > > Pascal wrote: > Do I have to name the target card for Sargon Fragment's action? > Yes. > > Pascal wrote: > Do I have to name the card for Mistress Fanchon(s ability? > No. It uses "search". > > Pascal wrote: > Can I use Andre Leroux's abilty more than once per turn? (on different bleeds)? > Yes. > > Pascal wrote: > Can I burn the Warghoul during an Entrancement action targetting it? > Yes. The action would then fizzle. > > Pascal wrote: > Can I play Liquidation if I have less than 7 cards in my library? > No. > > Pascal wrote: > an I play VOter Captivaion after Freak Drive? > Yes. > > Pascal wrote: > I play superior Terror Frenzy. They play Target Vitals, which I cancel; Do they burn blood ? > The blood cost for Target Vitals has to be paid (as TV doesn't read "no cost is paid"). > > Pascal wrote: > Tryphosa is in play. If my Malkavian's bleed is blocked, do i burn 1 blood? > The blood cost of a blocked action isn't paid. > > Pascal wrote: > Can I tap the Coven during Damage resolutiopn? > Yes, but NOT while healing damage / preventing destruction. > > Pascal wrote: > Does the Call the Great Beast card contest a summoned Great Beast? > "Summoned" = "Finished ritual". No. > > Pascal wrote: > Vaticination / Le Dinh To / Revelations: Do I get to see the replaced card? > No. > > Pascal wrote: > Marcianna Giovanni: Does she burn 1 blood on a normal bleed action? > Yes. > > Pascal wrote: > Temptatoon of Greater Power: Is there a bidding order? > No. [LSJ 20010507 > > Pascal wrote: > Casting votes / ballots: Can I change my votes / ballots after casting them in some direction? > No. > > Pascal wrote: > If I play Breath of the Dragon at close range, and Rotschreck, do I take the agg? > No. > > Pascal wrote: > Does Fall of the Camarilla remain in play if there are only 2 other Gehenna in play? > EDIT:yes. Nothing on it has it removed from play if its play conditions are no longer met. > > Pascal wrote: > My Villein is canceled by Bleeding the Vine. I play a Wider View. Do I get an extra MPA? > Yes. > > Pascal wrote: > Can I play more than 1 Torn Signpost each combat? > [/quote]Yes. Your strength value is determined by the level of your last Torn Signpost's Potence level.

If I play Wash and then Vessel, can I also play Opium Den (without Parthenon or other stuff)? Can I play Psyche! and then Taste of Vitae? Do I get an extra vote from the political action card from the Echo of Harmonies? Can I play On The Qui Vive any time during the action? Can I cast votes against my Consanguineous Boon, including the vote from the action card? If they DI Dragon Breath Rounds, can I play a second? If my predator influences out Anarch Convert while I control one, can he convert one of his vampires into an anarch? Can I play Cryptic Rider on a Dia de los Muertos / Cryptic rider passing referendum? Can I play Delaying Tactics on a Dia de los muertos / Cryptic rider passing referendum? WHat happens if I have the edge, 4 pool, and 2 First Traditions are in play (and I want to take my turn)? Can I play Touch of clarity as a reaction card to cancel Deflection? If I play On The Qui Vive, and Second Tradition, can I burn 1 blood to untap? Slauthtering the Herd: What happens if the vampire who played it is banished? If I play Target Vitals and DBR, is the damage from TV aggravated? If they play DI on mirror walk, do I replace it?

> Pascal wrote: > > > Pascal wrote: > > Can I play more than 1 Torn Signpost each combat? > > > Yes. Your strength value is determined by the level of your last Torn Signpost's Potence level. > What does any of that have to do with it? I'm curious, because you answered so many other questions with just "Yes" but then you went into a big rigamarole regarding Torn Signpost, when the card text of Torn Signpost explains perfectly what to do. or: Why was anything more than "Yes" necessary? Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

I was happy to finish typing that list and my joy flew to my fingers

> Pascal wrote: > > > Pascal wrote: > > Can I play VIsit from the Capuchin if I already control a Visit from the Capuchin with 1 counter? > > > No. This is a self-contest scenario, which isn't allowed by the rules. > Why? You said here that cards are replaced before resolving, so the old VftC burns before contesting and it is known before playing the card. Just before taking the decision to play the new VftC, the game is already in a state where playing it would not result in self-contest. If by "you cannot contest cards with yourself" (rulebook, Section 4.1), you mean "you cannot willingly put a unique card into play if you already control another unique card with the same name", then it needs to be written like that because it is not the same on that example. Of course, if one follows the CRR and replaces cards after resolving them, then it is indeed self-contest

> Pascal wrote: > > > Pascal wrote: > > Does Fall of the Camarilla remain in play if there are only 2 other Gehenna in play? > > > No. > Really? Assuming it was played legally, I can't see any reason for Fall to leave play, and the only ruling I'm aware of on this from LSJ matches that interpretation. -- National Coordinator South Africa

Boris : the problem with your interpretation is that you initiate something illegal (playing a Visit from the capucin) because it became legal before resolution. It seem pretty shaky and too open to interpretation for me.

I completely agree with you, but it is not my interpretation, it is what the current wording means. Contesting is not a move itself, it is a property. There is no way to understand "you cannot self-contest" other than "you cannot make a move such that the game state after the move would be self-contesting". Generally, such rules based on postconditions are bad because you have to unfold the game path and look in the future to check whether a move is legal or not. That's why I proposed to replace it with a wording that only checks the game state before making the move. What is really shaky is to do that and write something else in the rules.

Well, to replace a card in your hand, and burn the old one, you must have announced what you were playing. You don't replace before announcing the action. You hereforth announce something illegal because when it actually resolve (immediatly after), it will not be illegal. Yes, there is no windows between the time you annonce it and the time you replace it, but it's not important.

There is no such thing as an illegal move that becomes legal later. The move "play VftC" is instantaneous. The resolution takes some time, but only the time when the decision is made matters. When you announce the card, the rules have already determined that it is legal. But to do that, they must test it by playing it for fake in a dummy mini-game first. Assume that you play VftC. Assume that no one plays anything else (that's why it is a dummy mini-game). Resolve the card. Look at the game state you reach. Is it self-contesting? If not, then the play is legal and always was. Now you can play for real. Announce VftC, wait for Sudden. It is not shaky at all, just horribly complicated. And most important, it is what is currently written in the rules. I don't like it any more than you and Pascal will hopefully say it is not supposed to be played like that. But it is currently written like that nonetheless. If the wording I propose is deemed too complicated for the rulebook, it could still fit in the CRR, Section III in the end notes.

> Does Fall of the Camarilla remain in play if there are only 2 other Gehenna in play? > No. > This one baffled me as well. LSJ is pretty clear on the subject in the earlier linked post and there is no rules change that I'm aware of that would warrant this reversal. > Do I gain the blood from Madrigal if the referendum is Delayed? > No. > Also quite puzzled on this one? Why is this? Madrigal doesn't specify a timing window for the blood gain and thus it should be immediate. Compare to Carlak, where the timing of the blood gain is specified: "When results are tallied during any referendum, Carlak gains 1 blood for each Methuselah casting no votes in favor and at least 1 vote against the referendum." If your ruling stands, this is an errata to Madrigal.

> Izaak wrote: > > > > Do I gain the blood from Madrigal if the referendum is Delayed? > > > No. > > > > > > > > Also quite puzzled on this one? Why is this? Madrigal doesn't specify a timing window for the blood gain and thus it should be immediate. > > > > Compare to Carlak, where the timing of the blood gain is specified: "When results are tallied during any referendum, Carlak gains 1 blood for each Methuselah casting no votes in favor and at least 1 vote against the referendum." > > > > If your ruling stands, this is an errata to Madrigal. > > > My copies of Madrigil (from LoB) specify "Blood is gained or lost when the results are tallied." at the end of the card text, as does the latest cardlist.txt file. I don't own any BL copies, but this card image has that text as well. > -- National Coordinator South Africa

> Can I play Touch of clarity as a reaction card to cancel Deflection? > The actual question was : "Can I play Touch of clarity to cancel a Deflection as a reaction with a vampire tapped and under the effect of superior eye of argus?"

> My copies of Madrigil (from LoB) specify "Blood is gained or lost when the results are tallied." at the end of the card text, as does the latest cardlist.txt file. I don't own any BL copies, but this card image has that text as well. > Right. I'm an idiot that can't read card text. Obviously you don't get blood then Which makes me wonder, aside from me being an idiot, how can five people at a table fail to read simple card text to the point where it takes a judge to resolve the matter? I mean, not that I'm specifically puzzled about Madrigal, but just in general. With half of the questions the answer is right there on the card.

> Izaak wrote: > Which makes me wonder, aside from me being an idiot, how can five people at a table fail to read simple card text to the point where it takes a judge to resolve the matter? > For me, one on five would be enough. If someone does not agree on a card effect, for whatever reason, it's better to call a judge than trying to argue with the other player. He may even be right.

> drnlmza wrote: > > > Pascal wrote: > > > > > Pascal wrote: > > > Does Fall of the Camarilla remain in play if there are only 2 other Gehenna in play? > > > > > No. > > > Really? Assuming it was played legally, I can't see any reason for Fall to leave play, and the only ruling I'm aware of on this from LSJ matches that interpretation. > Nice catch! I'm typing thrse on my cellphone, and spent about an hour trying to get in properly written. That one is a mistake / typo. Of course, Fall of the Camarilla remains in play. I'll update tyr post above. Thanks

> Pascal wrote: > If I play Wash and then Vessel, can I also play Opium Den (without Parthenon or other stuff)? > No. Wash and Vessel are Trifles. (Though if someone else Washes one of my OOT master, I can play Vessel and Opium Den). > Pascal wrote: > Can I play Psyche! and then Taste of Vitae? > Yes. Both are now played during combat during the same window. > Pascal wrote: > Do I get an extra vote from the political action card from the Echo of Harmonies? > If "extra" means the vote from the card, yes (since it's played as if from hand). > Pascal wrote: > Can I play On The Qui Vive any time during the action? > Yes, except during a combat. > Pascal wrote: > Can I cast votes against my Consanguineous Boon, including the vote from the action card? > Yes. > Pascal wrote: > If they DI Dragon Breath Rounds, can I play a second? > Yes. DBR has a limited "use" not "play". > Pascal wrote: > If my predator influences out Anarch Convert while I control one, can he convert one of his vampires into an anarch? > Yes. > Pascal wrote: > Can I play Cryptic Rider on a Dia de los Muertos / Cryptic rider passing referendum? > Yes. > Pascal wrote: > Can I play Delaying Tactics on a Dia de los muertos / Cryptic rider passing referendum? > No (per card text). > Pascal wrote: > WHat happens if I have the edge, 4 pool, and 2 First Traditions are in play (and I want to take my turn)? > You may take your turn, then gain 1 of the Edge and pay 4 pool (or the other way round if you're suicidal). > Pascal wrote: > Can I play Touch of clarity as a reaction card to cancel Deflection? > Yes. > Pascal wrote: > If I play On The Qui Vive, and Second Tradition, can I burn 1 blood to untap? > Yes. > Pascal wrote: > Slauthtering the Herd: What happens if the vampire who played it is banished? > The card stays in play (the vampire is neither burned nor sent to torpor). > Pascal wrote: > If I play Target Vitals and DBR, is the damage from TV aggravated? > No. TV increases the damage from the strike (which is supposely non-aggravated). > Pascal wrote: > If they play DI on mirror walk, do I replace it? > Yes. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Pascal wrote: > And more questions from EC Day 1 > > Is superior Renewed Vigor a D action when played on someone else? > > no > > Can I withdraw in a duel if I already have 2 VPs, in order to give my predator 1 VP? > > no > > Can I play VIsit from the Capuchin if I already control a Visit from the Capuchin with 1 counter? > > no > > Can I tap a tapped vampire with Anarch Troublemaker? > > yes > > If two players are contesting Pentex, and I play mine, am I contesting it too? > > yes > > If a player who successfully called an odd number of Reversal of Fortunes is ousted, do we keep the curent turn order, or do we switch back to normal? > > curreny > > Can I have 2 Call the Great Beast on the same vampire? > > yes > > Can a Warghoul with Pentex burn a location per its cardtext? > > yes > > If I play Spirit Marionette on a vampire with Pentex Subversion, what happens? > > you keep them until the next action is taken > > Can I play The Missing Voice, and then Virtuosa? > > idk, but think yes > > Can a tapped imbued use Champion? > > no > > Does a Seduction on a Secure Haven'd vampire cost pool? > > no > > If a Sabbat Ravnos creates an Embrace, is the Embrace Sabbat? > > no > > Can I play an "attempt to block" card on an action I can't block? (Sense the Savage Way, for instance) > > no > > Is the Embrace of an Assamite blood cursed? > > yes > > Can I convert an anarch vampire? > > yes > > When do I remove the cards for Trochomancy? > > when played > > Can I tap the Dreams of the SPhinx during my untap phase, then untap it as normal, and then tap it again? > > no > > What happens if I play Eternals of Sirius when I have 4 pool (and choose to gain the pool) ? > > ousted > > Can I play Eternals of Sirius on 3 pool? > > no > > Can I forfeit the game if I already have 3 VPs? > > no > > Do I gain the blood from Madrigal if the referendum is Delayed? > > no > > Can I play Delaying Tactics anytime during the polling? > > yes > > Do I have to name the target card for Sargon Fragment's action? > > yes > > Do I have to name the card for Mistress Fanchon(s ability? > > no > > Can I use Andre Leroux's abilty more than once per turn? (on different bleeds)? > > yes > > Can I burn the Warghoul during an Entrancement action targetting it? > > yes > > Can I play Liquidation if I have less than 7 cards in my library? > > yes > > an I play VOter Captivaion after Freak Drive? > > yes > > I play superior Terror Frenzy. They play Target Vitals, which I cancel; Do they burn blood? > > no > > Tryphosa is in play. If my Malkavian's bleed is blocked, do i burn 1 blood? > > no > > Can I tap the Coven during Damage resolutiopn? > > yes > > Does the Call the Great Beast card contest a summoned Great Beast? > > no > > Vaticination / Le Dinh To / Revelations: Do I get to see the replaced card? > > no > > Marcianna Giovanni: Does she burn 1 blood on a normal bleed action? > > yes > > Temptatoon of Greater Power: Is there a bidding order? > > yes > > Casting votes / ballots: Can I change my votes / ballots after casting them in some direction? > > no > > If I play Breath of the Dragon at close range, and Rotschreck, do I take the agg? > > no > > Does Fall of the Camarilla remain in play if there are only 2 other Gehenna in play? > > yes > > My Villein is canceled by Bleeding the Vine. I play a Wider View. Do I get an extra MPA? > > yes > > Can I play more than 1 Torn Signpost each combat? > yes

Darn I missed some. rtfc, stupid Wedge.

> If I play Wash and then Vessel, can I also play Opium Den (without Parthenon or other stuff)? > No. (CRR III.B.2.a) > Can I play Psyche! and then Taste of Vitae? > No. ToV is played at the end of combat timing window while the window for Psyche! comes after that. > Do I get an extra vote from the political action card from the Echo of Harmonies? > Yes. Card text says "as if from your hand". > Can I play On The Qui Vive any time during the action? > Yes. Except as the action is announced. > Can I cast votes against my Consanguineous Boon, including the vote from the action card? > Yes > If they DI Dragon Breath Rounds, can I play a second? > No. The text on prevents it from being played as long as a prior copy was played the same round. Likewise for Immortal Grapple. Contrast this with most bleed modifiers where the text prevents further modifiers from being played. > If my predator influences out Anarch Convert while I control one, can he convert one of his vampires into an anarch? > Yes. Google Groups Reference > Can I play Cryptic Rider on a Dia de los Muertos / Cryptic rider passing referendum? > I vaguely remember a specific ruling that says you can't, but reading the CRR V.A.4, it seems you can. > Can I play Delaying Tactics on a Dia de los muertos / Cryptic rider passing referendum? > No. If a referendum will pass automatically (e.g., Cryptic Rider, Charming Lobby, Malkavian Rider Clause, Día de los Muertos), then no voting occurs during the automatic referendum, and most "during a political action" and "during a referendum" effects cannot be used. E.g., Delaying Tactics cannot be used to cancel the referendum. Any effects that operate on the number of votes that the referendum passed by have no effect. [LSJ 19980107] > WHat happens if I have the edge, 4 pool, and 2 First Traditions are in play (and I want to take my turn)? > You can gain the pool from the edge, then lose the 2 and 2 pool from the traditions. Card text says during your untap phase, and you can order things that happen during your untap phase as you like. > Can I play Touch of clarity as a reaction card to cancel Deflection? > Yes. Why not? > If I play On The Qui Vive, and Second Tradition, can I burn 1 blood to untap? > Yes. "...can play reaction cards and attempt to block as though untapped...". Playing cards as if untapped is not compulsary. > Slauthtering the Herd: What happens if the vampire who played it is banished? > The card stays on the minion it is on, but no blood is moved when the action is announced > If I play Target Vitals and DBR, is the damage from TV aggravated? > No, unless the strike already deals aggravated damage. > If they play DI on mirror walk, do I replace it? > Yes. (CRR II.D.2) Suaku Inceptor Asian Continental Championship 興っ www.youtube.com/SuakuOz

Out of curiosity Pascal, what is the purpose of this exercise, if there is indeed any? Suaku Inceptor Asian Continental Championship 興っ www.youtube.com/SuakuOz

The purpose of posting the answers here? To let us all learn from them and not annoy Pascal with the same questions every year is my guess. At least I learned some things from reading them.

> the1andonlime wrote: > > > Can I play Psyche! and then Taste of Vitae? > > > No. ToV is played at the end of combat timing window while the window for Psyche! comes after that. > It's now the same timing window (confirmed by Pascal at the EC). > the1andonlime wrote: > > > Can I play On The Qui Vive any time during the action? > > > Yes. Except as the action is announced. > Wrong. You can play for instance OtQV + Rewind Time to cancel an action card as the action is announced. > the1andonlime wrote: > > > If they DI Dragon Breath Rounds, can I play a second? > > > No. The text on prevents it from being played as long as a prior copy was played the same round. Likewise for Immortal Grapple. Contrast this with most bleed modifiers where the text prevents further modifiers from being played. > Wrong. DBR prohibits from "using" more than one ammo, not "playing" more than one ammo. Confirmed by LSJ some time ago (was at the French EC IIRC). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I know the purpose of posting the answers (that one was fairly obvious, and I thought that it was understood that that was not what my question was directed at) I was curious as to the purpose of posting only the questions, waiting a bit, then posting the answers. Specifically, the "waiting a bit". Suaku Inceptor Asian Continental Championship 興っ www.youtube.com/SuakuOz

Basic pedagogy: if you don't engage the students, they don't learn. Why do you think there are labs and not only lectures at all levels of education?

> Ankha wrote: > > > the1andonlime wrote: > > > > > Can I play Psyche! and then Taste of Vitae? > > > > > No. ToV is played at the end of combat timing window while the window for Psyche! comes after that. > > > It's now the same timing window (confirmed by Pascal at the EC). > This contradicts current rulings on this site. Confirmation, Pascal? "The superior is played after combat ends, even though the card is a combat card. [RTR 19980928]" Suaku Inceptor Asian Continental Championship 興っ www.youtube.com/SuakuOz

Thanks for your insights, Boris, but YANPB, so I would like to hear it from the man himself. Why? Because sometimes, things are not what you expect (of course, sometimes, a rock is just a rock). Suaku Inceptor Asian Continental Championship 興っ www.youtube.com/SuakuOz

> the1andonlime wrote: > This contradicts current rulings on this site. Confirmation, Pascal? > > "The superior is played after combat ends, even though the card is a combat card. [RTR 19980928]" > It's not the current ruling. I am too lazy to check whether the ruling is still on this site, but some month ago Psyche! was changed to be played in combat.

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > the1andonlime wrote: > > This contradicts current rulings on this site. Confirmation, Pascal? > > > > "The superior is played after combat ends, even though the card is a combat card. [RTR 19980928]" > > > It's not the current ruling. I am too lazy to check whether the ruling is still on this site, but some month ago Psyche! was changed to be played in combat. > vekn.net/index.php/vampire-elder-kindred-network/190-rules-team-rulings-02-dec-11

Any chance of a quick update to the CRR? Suaku Inceptor Asian Continental Championship 興っ www.youtube.com/SuakuOz

> Non-existant user wrote: > There is no such thing as an illegal move that becomes legal later. The move "play VftC" is instantaneous. The resolution takes some time, but only the time when the decision is made matters. When you announce the card, the rules have already determined that it is legal. But to do that, they must test it by playing it for fake in a dummy mini-game first. > > Assume that you play VftC. Assume that no one plays anything else (that's why it is a dummy mini-game). Resolve the card. Look at the game state you reach. Is it self-contesting? If not, then the play is legal and always was. Now you can play for real. Announce VftC, wait for Sudden. > > It is not shaky at all, just horribly complicated. And most important, it is what is currently written in the rules. I don't like it any more than you and Pascal will hopefully say it is not supposed to be played like that. But it is currently written like that nonetheless. If the wording I propose is deemed too complicated for the rulebook, it could still fit in the CRR, Section III in the end notes. > I believe Boris is correct on this rule interpretation. there is a similar LSJ ruling with Jimmy Dunn where you control Jimmy #1 and then influence out Jimmy #2 -- ordinarily this would be considered self-contesting and you burn #2, but with Jimmy's cardtext there is never any contesting to resolve so #1 burns as usual. therefore, if contesting never resolves with Visit From The Capuchin, it should be legal to play #2 when the #1 has only one counter left.

CRR will be cleaned as soon as I get back from vacation. The purpouse of writing these down is multiple. - give judges knowledge on what 80$ of the calls to a judge are. Most of the time, LSJ's "cardtext" answer is valid, but I tend to go with the "Yes/No" answer. - let players realize that they can save these money-time seconds by checking the cardtext before calling the judge I didn't post everything (questions and answers) everytime, because I was busy judging the players I used that free time at the start of the rounds to write this down.

> Haze wrote: > I believe Boris is correct on this rule interpretation. there is a similar LSJ ruling with Jimmy Dunn where you control Jimmy #1 and then influence out Jimmy #2 -- ordinarily this would be considered self-contesting and you burn #2, but with Jimmy's cardtext there is never any contesting to resolve so #1 burns as usual. > > therefore, if contesting never resolves with Visit From The Capuchin, it should be legal to play #2 when the #1 has only one counter left. > I believe it too that there is no such thing as a move that became legal later. It's even why I believe it don't work. Boris's say "I play a card, I replace it, and then I check whether it is legal". Which support the idea that you can play anything illegal, replace the card, and then ... what ? Jimmy Dunn is a case of involontary self contest, like any vampire. If you were forced to play the visit from Capucin, I would subscribe to the interpretation, but here it's playing something that self contest.

Please notice : you can willingfully influence out a new jimmy dunn. Since the card text clearly mentions that jimmy does not contest as normal, it's not an illegal move. Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > Haze wrote: > > I believe Boris is correct on this rule interpretation. there is a similar LSJ ruling with Jimmy Dunn where you control Jimmy #1 and then influence out Jimmy #2 -- ordinarily this would be considered self-contesting and you burn #2, but with Jimmy's cardtext there is never any contesting to resolve so #1 burns as usual. > > > > therefore, if contesting never resolves with Visit From The Capuchin, it should be legal to play #2 when the #1 has only one counter left. > > > I believe it too that there is no such thing as a move that became legal later. It's even why I believe it don't work. > > Boris's say "I play a card, I replace it, and then I check whether it is legal". Which support the idea that you can play anything illegal, replace the card, and then ... what ? > > Jimmy Dunn is a case of involontary self contest, like any vampire. If you were forced to play the visit from Capucin, I would subscribe to the interpretation, but here it's playing something that self contest. > Also, it is always wrong to look for a guiding principal in the ruling of a specific card and then to apply that principal to another card.

> Reyda wrote: > Please notice : you can willingfully influence out a new jimmy dunn. Since the card text clearly mentions that jimmy does not contest as normal, it's not an illegal move. > Well, last time I influenced a second copy of a vampire by mistake, judges said me that the move was legal but that the new vampire burn, because you can influence a unique vampire already in play, and bringing it into play is automatic. So, regarless of his card text, you could put it into play. His text is the reason whyit's the old that burn and not the new one. (and, no, I have no idea whether you can Summon History an unique vampire if you already have one copy of the vampire in play. It's the only action I know that allow to directly put an unique vampire into play - as opposed to put blood on it)

it's true that there's a loophole with "accidental" transfers, but there's many ways to intentionally put a vampire in play, such as Possession or Eternal Mask. these are all legal plays because Jimmy's text means he never self-contests. he's unique, but it's impossible to contest him. therefore, the self-contest rule only applies if contesting will happen as an end result, not the fact that you're attempting to control two copies of a unique card (which may or may not have some card text that will apply in the future when the action resolves) likewise, it's impossible to self-contest Visit from the Capuchin when it's at 1 counter because you always replace before resolving (barring another card changing the rules of the game during your master phase). the rule doesn't make it illegal to play a 2nd Visit, it only makes it illegal if the end result is self-contesting.

> Ohlmann wrote: > (and, no, I have no idea whether you can Summon History an unique vampire if you already have one copy of the vampire in play. It's the only action I know that allow to directly put an unique vampire into play - as opposed to put blood on it) > LSJ answered yes in 2003. Of course that was long before Summon History got printed, but the original question and his answer do not assume anything about how the player brings the second copy into play. groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/BnRxa-r3KcM/M7kKI-3CGoMJ