Submission - Cathedral of Flesh (master Tzimisce crypt accelerator)

Name: Cathedral of Flesh Cardtype: Master Cost: 1 pool Clan: Tzimisce Master: unique location. When this card is played, move a Tzimisce with superior Vicissitude [VIC] and capacity 8 or more in your uncontrolled region out of play, face down. At the end of your influence phase, add 3 blood from the bank to this card. If that vampire's capacity is reached or exceeded, return him or her to play in his or her owner's ready region with the blood from this card and burn this card. Any vampire may burn 1 blood on this card as a action. Art notes: The inside of a Cathedral. The wall, columns, floor are made of stone that looks organic. Veins in the walls have a faint luminescent glow. The place looks abandonned. The only furnitures are some altar and angel stone statues crying with pain. World of Darkness reference: Vampire: The Masquerade Revised Edition. Though is it said that the Cathedral of Flesh could be the resting place of Tzimisce himself, it could be in fact the creation of any powerful member of the clan. Game references: Eternals of Sirius, Gang Territory, tomb of Ramses III How does this card address a compelling game need? This cards creates a new option to influence out large Tzimisce vampires and is a flavorful addition to the game (with vampires able to fight against the development of the cathedral). The cards have a few drawbacks: - you have to influence another Tzimisce first - it takes a least 3 turns before you get the vampire - you can't speed up the influence of the vampire (but it can be slowed down by other Methuselahs) - if the Cathedral is burned (eg. with Arson), the vampire stays out of play and is lost - it's unique Advantages: - it costs only 1 pool for a 8+ Tzimisce at full capacity - if its changes controller, you still get the Tzimisce in the end - you can play more than 1 in a game (if you're lucky and manage to protect the counters) Created by: Ankha Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Great concept, but it looks too strong as it is. It is a 1 pool master that gives you between 8 and 11 free pool and transfers, and all that other players can do about it is slow it down. I would make it burnable as a action instead. That would make it on par with Powerbase: Baranquilla with respect to raw pool gain but faster. It also gives free transfers but you risk the vampire under it. That sounds about right a clan card. With the Tzimisce disciplines, they have a decent chance to defend it.

I'd rather make it "any vampire can (burn the edge maybe? and) take an action to burn all the counters", so you really have to protect it. but very nice idea though !! Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

I love it, mostly because it fit with what flesh cathedrales appear to do and mesh with the Tzimisce block thematic. Like Reyda, I would say burn either all, or at least 3, blood per action, to avoid this becoming out of control. There is a strong element of "the more you win, the more you win", since the more vampire you have, the slimest the chance of stopping the cathedral is.

The first version of it had only 2 counters per turn, and even with 3 counters per turn, I find it possibly slow. Sure, you get a vampire for 1 pool but you have to wait at least 3 turns to have it (with a setup requiring a least 1 turn), which can be 1/4 of the game. Still, I find Reyda's idea interesting (à la Shatter the Gates), so it could be: "Any vampire may burn the Edge to burn 3 blood on this card as a action.". It requires only 2 actions (bleeding to get the edge, then removing 3 counters) instead of 3 to get the same result, but requires 1 less block to avoid it. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Far from over-powered IMO. You need the card and you cant't have too many copies in your deck. The vampire it is attached to can't be transferred to (or from) so he will come at his own time. Waiting for three or four turns for a vampire is a really long time in the mid to late game, so you really need to get it set up somewhat quickly. So yeah, I like it.

i like it as a concept, but as others have said, other vamps need to slow it down more easily. I like your revised proposition, Ankha, but perhaps I'd prefer it that nay vamp can burn 2 blood from a card, instead of original 1. EDIT: How about you needing to use your transfer points for this card to work, in order to stop influencing this vampire and another one at the same time?

> Kiddo wrote: > EDIT: How about you needing to use your transfer points for this card to work, in order to stop influencing this vampire and another one at the same time? > We don't want to reprint Tomb of Ramses III, do we? Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Well, I'd say no, but with one of the deck design questions already being "how do I oust a prey that gains a lot of pool?" I don't think we need this either. I mean, Tend the Flock creates 3 pool out of nowhere in exchange for an MPA and is considered a pretty damned strong card. Grooming the Protege doesn't create pool, but significantly speeds up the rate at which you can flip vampires and while it's not the best card ever, it sees a fair amount of play. Zillah's Valley costs a pool and only gives you 4 extra transfers for the turn and is played a LOT. This card changes 1 pool into anywhere between 8 and 11 pool for one MPA and a few turns AND gives a free extra 3 transfers per turn for as long as it takes to bring out whomever you were bringing out. Yes, it's mostly redundant if you draw it in turn 5+, but so is Zillah's. If you get it early, which isn't exactly a hard feat as shown by everyone drawing their turn-1 Zillah's just fine, it's broken. Flip Horatio turn 1, play CoF turn 2, influence out Meshenka the normal way and get Velya for free by turn 4! In which universe is this balanced?

> Ankha wrote: > We don't want to reprint Tomb of Ramses III, do we? > No, but as Izaak has already said, there is nothing prohibiting you from slowly 'influencing' one vampire via Cathedral, while at the same time influencing another one in a usual manner. Someone moved some counters from the Cathedral? Whatever, it's not like they can remove the master, your counters (and free vamp) will come out eventually, while you play your game as normal - the only setback is 1 pool and one MPA. It's not like Tzimisce lack good vampires in capacity 8+.

> Izaak wrote: > Flip Horatio turn 1, play CoF turn 2, influence out Meshenka the normal way and get Velya for free by turn 4! > > In which universe is this balanced? > You know, I would agree with you if I was not playing a game where people already influence inner circle using Zillah or info highway, then villein + giant blood them on the next turn. Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

I think we should distinguish 2 things: 1/ how much the card speeds up the influence of a vampire 2/ hom much blood / pool does the card make the player gain Concerning 1/ the card is worse than many crypt acceleration if you plan to get that vampire out quickly. With 1 Zillah's Valley, you'd get a vampire in 1 or 2 turns, with Information Highway only 2 turns, even Powerbase: Montreal makes a 10-cap vampire appear in 2 turns. Cathedral of Flesh requires at least 3 turns, possibly more if people on the table have some actions to spare. Of course, you can influence out other vampires at the same time so it's much like having +3 transfer on the same vampire each turn, which can be slowed down but cost nothing. Concerning 2/ the card allows you to have a 8+ cap with 8+ blood for 1 pool. It's much better than the aforementioned cards that cost as much pool (+1 for Zillah) as you have blood on the vampire in the end. Some cards already exist that provide free transfer and blood gain (Great Symptosium, Eternals of Sirius), but maybe not as much. To avoid free transfer + 8+ blood gain, we could consider nerfing the card: If that vampire's capacity is reached or exceeded, return him or her to play in his or her owner's ready region with 4 blood from this card and burn this card. (or 3 blood). One last thing: the card is a location so is vulnerable to many cards. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> You know, I would agree with you if I was not playing a game where people already influence inner circle using Zillah or info highway, then villein + giant blood them on the next turn. > Well, sure. Except that to do so at least they spend 12 pool. Lambach or Sha-Ennu don't have card texts that prevent you from pulling the same shit on them, expect they cost 1 pool to get out instead of 12. A net gain of 11 pool. Also, any argument that involves Giant's Blood is immediately void as that card is stupidly broken and should have been banned about 2 years ago.

The 4 blood suggestion may avert this. There is still the problem that the card is even more powerful when you are already in good shape, but that may not be problematic, especially for the overly defensive Tzimisce clan. Another way, more vicious, would be to change the blood gain to 1 at the start of each player turn, and burn one token each time the active player get the edge. Since you must have a tzimisce in play to play it, most player will have a vampire to bleed, but this will dramatically improve the need for going forward.

> Izaak wrote: > Except that to do so at least they spend 12 pool. Lambach or Sha-Ennu don't have card texts that prevent you from pulling the same shit on them, expect they cost 1 pool to get out instead of 12. A net gain of 11 pool. > Be careful with that kind of argument, because Ecoterrorist has a net pool gain of +infinite (provided you wait long enough). So the net gain is pretty meaningless if you don't say you have to wait 4+ turns to effectively have it (if bringing out a 11-cap vampire can be considered as a pool gain, which is not quite accurate). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Common Ankha. I like the concept very much and the description, but your argument is void, because you do not count the extra transfers it gives you. +3 transfers is a lot. zillahs is 4 transfers at the cost of 1 turn and one master phase and one pool one turn. Information gives you two extra tranfers and is unique location, which is the most common contested master together with pentex. This gives you 3 or 4 turns + 3 transfers at the cost of 1 pool and 1 master phase. But is far better than that it gives a net gain between seven and ten pool. More or less the gain a Giant´s blood will give you on a fattie deck. Giants is only one per game additionally. So what do we have with the cathedral ? A mix of giants blood and information highway, with none of the problems associated with this cards. Blocker is Tzimisce nature, and with abbot and eyes of argus d actions are really not a great issue for them. At worst other minions will slow down the effect the cathedral one turn or various turns. At the cost of 1 pool you mantain another minion occupied for the rest of his life on the table, so this cards as it is would be a wonder even for samedi. My oppinion is increase the cost to four or five, the cathedral is filled at two per turn and breakable as d ation and all the counters are lost.

> Dr.Mafrune wrote: > So what do we have with the cathedral ? A mix of giants blood and information highway, with none of the problems associated with this cards. > And a sleeve of problem inherent to the card. It don't stack with any other transfert. It has to be defended, so you may have to block people cross table. You can't change your mind on what you want to put in play. And, as Ankha said, you can burn the location ; location hate is not overly common but it is pretty polyvalent and it hurt this card pretty badly. > Dr.Mafrune wrote: > My oppinion is increase the cost to four or five, the cathedral is filled at two per turn and breakable as d ation and all the counters are lost. > This version is utterly unplayable. A master card breakable for 4 or 5 pool with nothing in exchange ? There is no reason to bother releasing that.

Dear Ohlmann, stop trolling my comments. Everytime I write some argument you just say the opposite without thinking to deeply about it. Last argument you don¡t mention by any means my full argument. The first version costing a blood YOU DONT HAVE TO DEFEND IT, because sooner or later it will get the counters. This for only ONE POOL. ONE, REPEAT,ONE. and one crypt card. How the hell can you try to convince me that the d burning counter effect is an acceptable balance to get a munchkin card-mix of a giants + information highway ???? ...............because most decks pack at least three unantural disaster, so being a location is an incredible risk............. Second argument. Please, this is a bad joke. Crossburning the location ?? Your supposed allies try to burn it ??? Wake up, this is master is not a smiling jack. Tzimisce normal deck can defend montreal, rack etc explane me why, by jesus sake, would they be unable to defend this card ???? .....because all the players see that the cathedral is his utmost doom, and will try by any means to burn it.... If you like to be contrarian, at least make solid arguments.

> Dr.Mafrune wrote: > stop trolling my comments. Everytime I write some argument you just say the opposite without thinking to deeply about it. > Well, generally it's the one who start calling the other name the troll. > Dr.Mafrune wrote: > Last argument you don¡t mention by any means my full argument. The first version costing a blood YOU DONT HAVE TO DEFEND IT, because sooner or later it will get the counters. This for only ONE POOL. ONE, REPEAT,ONE. and one crypt card. How the hell can you try to convince me that the d burning counter effect is an acceptable balance to get a munchkin card-mix of a giants + information highway ???? > You're authorized to read my comments, like the very first one that state blood on it should be burned by 3 at least. And the effect of the card is extremely overevalued by you. More on this later. > > Dr.Mafrune wrote: > ...............because most decks pack at least three unantural disaster, so being a location is an incredible risk............. > You're authorized to read arguments. Anti location are uncommon, but versatile (after all, Information highway, Parthenon, intercpt location, Cantry, etc, are all powerful locations) > Dr.Mafrune wrote: > Second argument. Please, this is a bad joke. Crossburning the location ?? Your supposed allies try to burn it ??? Wake up, this is master is not a smiling jack. Tzimisce normal deck can defend montreal, rack etc explane me why, by jesus sake, would they be unable to defend this card ???? > You take crosstable ally way too literally. Exactly like Smiling Jack, everybody will want to see this gone, for the same reason : it give way too much power to the one who have it. Yes, Meshenka for free is exactly as many bad news as a 3- or 4-token Smiling Jack. Yes, it will make people waste action to get it instead of ousting their prey, and I suppose it's design intent. > Dr.Mafrune wrote: > If you like to be contrarian, at least make solid arguments. > Period are not strong arguments either. Sarcasm apart, we're talking of a second minion for free somewhere between the turn 5 and 7 at best, so mid-game. If you draw it very early in the game, and have both a weenie (to get turn 2 or 3), and a bigcap, both tzimisces. And to draw early it early in a 60-card deck, we're looking at 5-6 copy. Of an unique, non-trifle master. For this kind of master investment, people alredy can have 2-3 inner circle on mid game, and inner circle tend to be significantly better than bigcap tzimisces. It is still pretty powerful, don't get me wrong on that. But be scandalized by its power level ? Information Highway exist. Villein exist (it's why Ankha propose that the vampire only get 4 blood and not full blood, in case you didn't see). Lastly, re-read your "correction". You would have trouble to find something more useless than a 4-pool investment that somebody else can trash for you, aong with a card in the uncontrolled region.

No. From the thematic, I don¡t think the vampire can come half-blooded to the game from the cathedral. Maybe the solution is the need of tzimisce actions or blood or sacrified minions or retainers to work well. For example: Any tzimisce can take a +1 stealth action that cost 1 blood to put 3 or 4 pool on the vampire with the cathedral from the blood bank. Addionally the cathedral could give one pool free every turn.

To be honest, I was trying to tinker a version were you put it on a vampire, that allow hom to burn vampire he sent to torpor (he incorpore them to the cathedral), and that give bonus once enough thing are eaten. It has the problem that a permanent that give an integrated decapitate is alway way too powerful (or at least annoying to play against), and even more with Chiroptean marauder.

Here's the previous versions (ideas) of the card: Name: Cathedral of Flesh Cardtype: Master Cost: 1 pool Clan: Tzimisce Master: unique location. When this card is played, move a Tzimisce with superior Vicissitude [VIC] and capacity 8 or more in your uncontrolled region out of play, face down. At the end of your influence phase, discard a retainer or ally from your hand to add 3 blood from the bank to this card. If that vampire's capacity is reached or exceeded, return him or her to play in his or her owner's ready region with the blood from this card and burn this card. This version is more proactive than passive. Another idea: Name: Cathedral of Flesh Cardtype: Master Cost: 1 pool Clan: Tzimisce Master: unique location. When this card is played, move a Tzimisce with superior Vicissitude [VIC] and capacity 8 or more in your uncontrolled region out of play, face down, and remove a ready Tzimisce you control with capacity X from the game. At the end of your influence phase, add X blood from the bank to this card. If that vampire's capacity is reached or exceeded, return him or her to play in his or her owner's ready region with the blood from this card and burn this card. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I think that the second version lends itself to too much Villein abuse: bring out Meshenka, Villein to 0, Cathedral another Meshenka, ending up with a vampire that costs 1 at full capacity. I prefer the first version.

Think of the second version as a Get Out of Pentex free card instead....

> DeathInABottle wrote: > I think that the second version lends itself to too much Villein abuse: bring out Meshenka, Villein to 0, Cathedral another Meshenka, ending up with a vampire that costs 1 at full capacity. I prefer the first version. > I didn't think about that, but you don't gain much. Sure Meshenka is full again but it's one turn played without him and you lose all retainers on him/her. Not crypt acceleration, useful indead to get rid of a pentex (which isn't a bad thing). Once again, card can be nerfed by returning the vampire with only 4 blood, so it's much more like Descent into Darkness. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Hum... if I steal the card will I get the vampire? I guess Church or Order of Saint Blaise will be a lot more playable... More than 2 counter per turn is a bit abusive... and IMHO a D action against the card should be able to burn 2 counters as well... Or you can make it a little less broken a say that CoF is the same as Ecoterrorists but for this guys... But I would like to see a cards like Ecoterrorists for the bloodlines...

> wesile wrote: > Hum... if I steal the card will I get the vampire? > No, the vampires goes to his owner's ready region. > wesile wrote: > I guess Church or Order of Saint Blaise will be a lot more playable... > True, I forgot that one. It doesn't change much. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director