Abusing Leroux

I just came back from the french championship, and I must say that I saw numerous abuses with Andre Leroux's special. Let's sum it up. Designer's intent is good : it's a 3 cap, with the useful ability to reduce a deflected bleed, then bleed himself for 2. The problem lies not within the wording to use the special on himself (ok, fine with that even if it's the smallest capacity with a de facto built-in +1 bleed, but it's worth one point capacity) The problem lies rather in the fact that it allows this vamp to bleed for 5 or 7 with no real reason -except wording flaw. I sincerely doubt it was designed to work like this, but feel free to tell me I'm wrong. any thoughts from someone who saw him in action ? Isn't it time to put him in the RTR list ? thanks for your attention. (( Andre LeRoux - Camarilla: When a vampire you control sucessfully bleeds, you may reduce the bleed amount by 1 to give Andre +2 bleed this turn. )) Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

The only problem with LeRoux as I see it, is that it can be kind of hard for players to realize how much he can actually do. I feel like it's more of a newbiesmasher than anything else. He is a 3-cap with no stealth disciplines, bleed for 8 is nothing rare, his bleed is extremely predictable and it comes at the cost of other +bleed. All decks should survive anything LeRoux does, given that they know/understand what he can do. Adam Esbjörnsson, Prince of Örebro

Wow. I never noticed that he wasn't limited to one a turn. that's stupid good. and its hard to justify playing AI on a 3 cap.

I agree with the fact he do far more than what he was intended to do apparently. It's more or less the second best powerbleeder vampire I have seen after the +4 bleed 11 cap ... But, the real question is, is he problematic ? * it's a way to greatly improve your ousting capability with very few investisment (just have him in the crypt in a deck that can hope to have 3-4 minion is enough). But I have not seen Leroux powerbleed deck, unlike for example Palla Grande breeding. ANd more ousting abilities, and a bit slow, seem to be good for the game. * he is far stronger than any other 3-cap. But he is overly specialized and don't see to be put instead of more versatile minion ; I see it mainly played in decks that doesn't really care about what can play the sidekicks. * for now, he is not played so much that Leroux contesting happen often and decide table winner So, all in all, I believe Leroux may have been an error, but he is far less likely to cause trouble for now than other, non bugged, card. Still, maybe we just haven't found the real exploit for him. If I were to see a tournament with 10+ Leroux in the decks of finalists, my opinion may change.

> Reyda wrote: > any thoughts from someone who saw him in action ? > Consider: Is a deck based on him really worse than a Computer Hacking deck (which isn't that strong compared to other archetypes)? Or a Palla Grande deck? Or Week of Nightmares clown car build? Comparing the cases, every small minion bleeds for 2. Andre does it without relying on cards, true. But the Andre decks require being uncontested, avoiding the single block, avoiding the single bounce, avoiding the Archon and dealing with the "target minion" complex on a 3 cap with no defensive disciplines. Seems like a lot of stuff to overcome. That he can only be used with vampires' bleeds limits a number of deck archetypes. There won't be Arms Dealers bleeding for -1, then LeRoux bleeding for 30. Where he does have an impact is a combat deck, using rush to clear a hole for him. Since those decks are pretty tough to use, red card intensive and possess few pool-damaging options, I like seeing Andre as a option to provide some meaningful follow-up to the rushes. It's still slow and deals with all the disadvantages of the single-bleed syndrome. Codex of the Edenic Groundskeeper is less scalable (barring multiaction) but more flexible in use. I don't see Andre providing any function that can't be provided in other ways (not to say they can't be used together). Brian did win a tournament here in Denver 2 weeks ago, using Andre as a 1-in-12 crypt inclusion with Shalmath. The problem there wasn't Andre, per se, it was the way the table allowed a Freakshow tool-up archtype too much latitude in the mid game. D.

if FIda'i got nerfed due to print run "not agreeing with card intent," then nerf the hell out of this too. PS: Screw the Camarilla and its toys.

> Reyda wrote: > any thoughts from someone who saw him in action ? > Isn't it time to put him in the RTR list ? > In certain combat decks, Andre is a slightly better pool damage mechanism than other available options. He allows you to oust faster but only if you're already in a winning position. Very possibly the best weenie in the game but not worth a nerf.

I think LeRoux is fine just the way he is - and I believe he's working as designed. Some of the analysis here is a bit wonky. First, if LeRoux is bleeding for 8, he'd have to reduce the bleed of three other vampires. So the net gain is actually only +5 bleed. Significant, but not crazy. In fact, it's exactly as much bleed as you'd get from a Week of Nightmares or Palla Grande. Second, he's quite easy to defend against. No stealth disciplines, so even if your prey is running cloaks and veils, that maxes at +3 stealth - more likely around +1. This on a minion with no combat defense at all. If LeRoux would bleed for 8 and you bounce him, you've actually saved yourself 3 pool from the bleeds he reduced earlier in the turn. No, LeRoux is at his most damaging when dealing with a defenseless prey - either one who taps out and is out of wakes, one who intended to bloat out of trouble, or one who has no minions left. The first is usually a gameplay choice, the second is a metagame choice, and the third requires a pretty dedicated combat deck from the predator - it's not a "card light" strategy.

he's obviously the best weenie in the game by leaps and bounds. he bleeds for 2 just by himself, without any other card on the table being involved. at least Beatrice requires some conviction cards to be usable, and she's at risk of being stolen anytime. what's next, a 3 cap prince with no drawbacks?

> Haze wrote: > he's obviously the best weenie in the game by leaps and bounds. he bleeds for 2 just by himself, without any other card on the table being involved. at least Beatrice requires some conviction cards to be usable, and she's at risk of being stolen anytime. > > what's next, a 3 cap prince with no drawbacks? > Marcianna Giovanni, Investigator or Royce aren't too shabby either, to be honest. I just noticed there are a total of 6 2-caps in group 2 with . That's a lot, and none of them have any drawbacks which would really matter much. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

Somebody mentioned the fact that Fida'i were errated. What was their old text ? > Haze wrote: > he's obviously the best weenie in the game by leaps and bounds. he bleeds for 2 just by himself, without any other card on the table being involved. at least Beatrice requires some conviction cards to be usable, and she's at risk of being stolen anytime. > I agree that Leroux is the best weenie, like, ever. He don't even need discipline to do his dirty work. But he is alone, not (yet ?) overused, and he help decks which aren't exactly top tier, so I believe he can be left alone.

I don't know if I'd say "best", but he's up there. Comparing: Royce (1): bleeds for 1, or 3 with correct card. Bounces. Ohanna etc (2): bleed for 1, or 5 with correct cards. Bounces. Many of them. Marciana Giovanni (2): Bleed for 1, or 3 with correct card. Bounces. Hands out intercept. Beatrice (3): bleed for 2, 3 with correct card, and your choice of permanent +1 bleed, +1 stealth, or not easy to steal. LeRoux (3): bleeds for 2, 3 with correct card; can reduce your bleed; can increase bleed damage if your prey is defenseless, at the cost of concentrating it. Keith Moody (3): bleeds for 1, or 6 with correct cards. Bounces. Isabel de Leon: (3): bleeds for 1, or 2 with correct card; bounces; blocks.

> Kraus wrote: > > > Haze wrote: > > he's obviously the best weenie in the game by leaps and bounds. he bleeds for 2 just by himself, without any other card on the table being involved. at least Beatrice requires some conviction cards to be usable, and she's at risk of being stolen anytime. > > > > what's next, a 3 cap prince with no drawbacks? > > > Marcianna Giovanni, Investigator or Royce aren't too shabby either, to be honest. > > I just noticed there are a total of 6 2-caps in group 2 with . That's a lot, and none of them have any drawbacks which would really matter much. > weenie is pretty strong indeed. but I think it is mostly thanks to basic Deflection, rather than playing a couple Conditionings and running out of blood. many players know how to defend/attack against weenie too, but that doesn't mean they're balanced. they're still tiers above most other vampires in the game. > Ohlmann wrote: > I agree that Leroux is the best weenie, like, ever. He don't even need discipline to do his dirty work. > > But he is alone, not (yet ?) overused, and he help decks which aren't exactly top tier, so I believe he can be left alone. > fair enough. even though I'm arguing that Andre is too powerful, I actually don't care if VEKN nerfs him or not. I even abuse him myself, because many players around me are fixated on bigcaps and ignore weenies.

> Ohlmann wrote: > Somebody mentioned the fact that Fida'i were errated. What was their old text ? > Printed Text Fida'i Clan: Assamite (group 2) Capacity: 2 Disciplines: cel qui Independent: Fida'i do not untap as normal during the untap phase. Any ready Assamite you control with capacity avove 6 can burn 1 blood to untap this Fida'i. Fida'i are not unique and do not contest. (Blood Cursed) Errata Text Fida'i Clan: Assamite (group 2) Capacity: 2 Disciplines: cel qui Independent: Fida'i do not untap as normal during the untap phase. During your untap phase, any ready Assamite you control with capacity above 6 can burn 1 blood to untap this Fida'i. Fida'i are not unique and do not contest. (Blood Cursed) Same issue, didn't have "When/During/etc" clause and thus would have worked like Maris Streck ( "Maris can burn a blood to give a blocking minion +1 intercept."). Except that was too powerful... because quietus. Now we have it again and this time it's not corrected, in favor of the Camarilla, again. Why don't we stop all this crap and just make all these abilities assumed to be with timing errata already? That way Maris LeRoux et al doesn't stand outside the design paradigm. Makes rulings consistent and everyone's lives easier -- and it keeps Fida'i down with their oh so dangerous quietus. Here, let me help: Andre LeRoux Clan: Toreador (group 5) Capacity: 3 Disciplines: aus Camarilla: During your minion phase When a vampire you control successfully bleeds, you may reduce the bleed amount by 1 to give Andre +2 bleed this turn. Maris Streck Clan: Malkavian (group 3) Capacity: 9 Disciplines: AUS OBF ani dem dom Camarilla Malkavian Justicar: During an action Maris can burn a blood to give a blocking minion +1 intercept. She can take a +1 stealth action to allow you to look at and rearrange the top 5 cards of your library. There, consistency and less complicated.

> Azel wrote: > Why don't we stop all this crap and just make all these abilities assumed to be with timing errata already? That way Maris LeRoux et al doesn't stand outside the design paradigm. Makes rulings consistent and everyone's lives easier -- and it keeps Fida'i down with their oh so dangerous quietus. > No one stands "outside the design paradigm". By definition, they are all "inside" of it. Their rulings are consistent: The word during sets up a "once per X" constraint, and not having that word doesn't. I've never met a player that didn't understand this -- though I've met players that didn't WANT to understand it. Everyone's lives would be easier if everything were the same, true. Is that the ccg that you want to be playing? Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> Azel wrote: > Now we have it again and this time it's not corrected, in favor of the Camarilla, again. > TWDA and personal experience suggests that Andre favors independents over Camarilla.

> Azel wrote: > Why don't we stop all this crap and just make all these abilities assumed to be with timing errata already? That way Maris LeRoux et al doesn't stand outside the design paradigm. Makes rulings consistent and everyone's lives easier -- and it keeps Fida'i down with their oh so dangerous quietus. > Well, although I don´t like errata, I hope the design team take note for future sets. These seemingly random inconsistencies really makes it hard to teach people VTES. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Haze wrote: > weenie is pretty strong indeed. but I think it is mostly thanks to basic Deflection, rather than playing a couple Conditionings and running out of blood. > Lilith's Blessing anyone? Also, see Coven and Jake Washington etc Finnish Politics!

Andre Leroux compares rather unfavourably to a DOM weenie like Keith Moody. Andre may not need cards to increase his bleed but does need minions bleeding... I know which of them I consider to be the scarcest resource, overall. Then we get to the delivery issue of said bleed... fun times. Lastly, if one factors in bounce capability (w/according blood gain), Andre Leroux gets swiftly demoted to cute novelty to support combat and little else. Drain

> Drain wrote: > but does need minions bleeding... > True, but even on his own, he bleeds for 2, no cost, no cards. That's scary for a 3-cap, even if we don't consider his bleeding ability with other vampires.

> Kiddo wrote: > > > Drain wrote: > > but does need minions bleeding... > > > True, but even on his own, he bleeds for 2, no cost, no cards. That's scary for a 3-cap, even if we don't consider his bleeding ability with other vampires. > Béatrice Oracle171 Tremblay is a 3cap that bleeds for 2. Never seemed scary to me (and she can have convictions too!)

yeah, but beatrice is an ally, and thus can be stolen. leRoux is good, real good. But Keith moody and other gr 1/2 dom weenice 2caps are TONS better even as a support for a combat deck. They can deflect, bleed AND graverob. i was never really impressed with LeRoux. Sure, once in , like, ever 10 games, you will have all your vamps in torpor, and your predator will have Enkidu, LeRoux, and 3 1-caps... but really, at that point, you are already dead , Andre or no Andre

> Drain wrote: > Andre may not need cards to increase his bleed but does need minions bleeding... I know which of them I consider to be the scarcest resource, overall. > If you do a DOM bleeder, bleeding minion. Else, it may very well be card space in your deck. Leroux is, for three pool, a Palla Grande without time limit. Of course, it has weaknesses to counter that (can be sent to torpor, contested, or blocked/redirected more easily), but nothing else give that much raw power by itself > Drain wrote: > Lastly, if one factors in bounce capability (w/according blood gain), Andre Leroux gets swiftly demoted to cute novelty to support combat and little else. > And once you factor that other, non weenie, vampires can deflect or intercept, but no other vampires give +1 bleed to all your vampires, you understand that Leroux is way better than any cute novelty DOM weenie. In other word, on pure power level, Leroux is better because no other vampires provide what he give. Beatrix with a conviction is the only one that can compare a bit, and she is usually weaker.

> KevinM wrote: > > > Azel wrote: > > Why don't we stop all this crap and just make all these abilities assumed to be with timing errata already? That way Maris LeRoux et al doesn't stand outside the design paradigm. Makes rulings consistent and everyone's lives easier -- and it keeps Fida'i down with their oh so dangerous quietus. > > > No one stands "outside the design paradigm". By definition, they are all "inside" of it. > > Their rulings are consistent: The word during sets up a "once per X" constraint, and not having that word doesn't. I've never met a player that didn't understand this -- though I've met players that didn't WANT to understand it. > > Everyone's lives would be easier if everything were the same, true. Is that the ccg that you want to be playing? > Fida'i were consistent before their errata as well. And as much as I like VTES it's a pain in the ass to explain to new players because of stupid little things like this. There's a reluctance to embrace errata, except when we just do, and it's rarely for anything worthwhile like consistency. There's so few exceptions to this timing structure why are we holding on to it? Tradition is a poor answer in my view.

> Ohlmann wrote: > but no other vampires give +1 bleed to all your vampires, > Annabelle Triabell comes close, but she is a 9-cap and she has to make an action in order to do that. Without her action even she doesn't have +1 bleed. And having seen her in action, I consider her a very powerful vampire.

> Ohlmann wrote: > If you do a DOM bleeder, bleeding minion. > > Else, it may very well be card space in your deck. > Enter Dominate, the new and improved card-efficient oust method. 4 Conditionings enable enough bleed to oust a player. Oh, card efficiency, how I love thee. > Ohlmann wrote: > Leroux is, for three pool, a Palla Grande without time limit. Of course, it has weaknesses to counter that (can be sent to torpor, contested, or blocked/redirected more easily), but nothing else give that much raw power by itself > > And once you factor that other, non weenie, vampires can deflect or intercept, but no other vampires give +1 bleed to all your vampires, you understand that Leroux is way better than any cute novelty DOM weenie. > The abilities you're quoting are not conforming with Andre Leroux's card text. He cannot, as per my reading, "give +1 bleed to all your vampires" (the opposite being closer to the truth, actually). > Ohlmann wrote: > In other word, on pure power level, Leroux is better because no other vampires provide what he give. Beatrix with a conviction is the only one that can compare a bit, and she is usually weaker. > I don't follow. You're saying he is better on the merits of having an inferior but unique ability? Why? Uniqueness has limited correlation to in-game value. Drain

Beatrice the Imbued is a 3-cap who can bleed for 3 each turn or strike hands for 2 if blocked. Or, can choose to be tad more harder to be stolen than your ordinary ally. Either of your choices can be made by adding one card to your deck, which can be fetched when you influence her out. Compared to Andre, she's as "terrifying". Compared to Tupdogs, Enkidu, Beast, CEL/POT, dom/Dragon's Breath, etc. both Beatrice and Andre are as terrifying as my son's diapers. ---- Banging trashcans, breaking windows We'll wake you up tonight We like the good time, we scream and shout And that's what fun's about

@Jussi : you mean that Leroux is the most terrifying thing ever ? (anyway, of course Leroux is less powerful than Enkidu. Also, it cost five time less) > Drain wrote: > Enter Dominate, the new and improved card-efficient oust method. 4 Conditionings enable enough bleed to oust a player. Oh, card efficiency, how I love thee. > Oh card jam, how I love thee. You must draw them before you need them, and keep them in hand because you only have 4 of them. It's especially sensible for combat deck because handjam is already a very important problem. > Drain wrote: > The abilities you're quoting are not conforming with Andre Leroux's card text. He cannot, as per my reading, "give +1 bleed to all your vampires" (the opposite being closer to the truth, actually). > You have n minion. Without Leroux, you bleed for n. With Leroux, you bleed for 2n+2. Yes, only Leroux does the damage. Still, it's the equivalent of +1 bleed on every vampire. > Drain wrote: > I don't follow. You're saying he is better on the merits of having an inferior but unique ability? Why? > You forget that, even if you say it's inferior to , it's still extremely powerful. And you have no other way to get it on a vampire. You can play card with any vampire. You can't have the Leroux special with any vampire other than Leroux. That's why he is more powerful than any weenie for me : he give something I will almost alway find helpful without any other option.

Oooh, my baby boy craps flowers Having Andre in your deck does not win you games by just being there. In some decks he has lots of impact by hastening ousting process. Relying only on Andre to oust is not good. He's good, very good for a 3-cap, but still only a 3-cap with one inferior discipline. ---- Banging trashcans, breaking windows We'll wake you up tonight We like the good time, we scream and shout And that's what fun's about

> With Leroux, you bleed for 2n+2. Yes, only Leroux does the damage. Still, it's the equivalent of +1 bleed on every vampire. > Nah, not really it's not. At best it's "+x bleed where x is the number of vampires you control" and that's provided you bleed with all of them and none of them are blocked. Given that André has exactly zero ways to become stealth out of the box, that seems a stretch at best. And even then, if you have less than 4 minions, which is a reasonable assumption, a Conditioning will do exactly the same thing, at the cost of 1 blood and 3 less actions.

> Izaak wrote: > And even then, if you have less than 4 minions, which is a reasonable assumption, a Conditioning will do exactly the same thing, at the cost of 1 blood and 3 less actions. > 3 minion = Andre Leroux bleed for 6 for 3 total actions. So, your math is off. A sup' conditionning alone is the same thing as leroux with one other minion acting. 4 minions bleeding total are needed to have the same potential as govern + conditionning. More importantly, I compare it to Palla Grande because both double your bleed potential, something very few to none other vampire do, on a 3-cap. As I have said right off the bat, there is significant drawback to Leroux use, namely that it is Leroux who do the entire bleed to compensate for that. It does not mean he broke the format, but there is a reason for which both the Enkidu deck and the Shalmath deck were running some Leroux and not some weenie and 4 conditionning : he is way more convenient, for an often superior bleed potential.

> 3 minion = Andre Leroux bleed for 6 for 3 total actions. > Yes, and normally those 3 minions would bleed for 3 instead of just Andre for 6. So Andre's special adds 3 (which is exactly what I said, since you have 3 minions in play) and therefore the Conditioning does exactly the same thing, except that it doesn't require you to first take two succesfull bleed actions for it to work. I mean, it's not bad or anything, but it certainly isn't gamebreaking. The only thing that's kinda retarded is that you can use his special on himself, basically making him a 2-bleeder for 3 pool. If you'd argue that's probably too much bang for buck I'd be inclined to agree but given his abysmal inferior auspex, I don't mind too much, especially since he's Toreador and those tend to not really have issues bleeding anyway.

I'm still looking for a rule question in here.. About the Fida'i: Their previous cardtext allowed them to untap several times per turn (including in the minion phase). In my Shalmath deck, I use Andre for several purposes: - Anima Gathering - Responsible bleed (yes, he can reduce Shalmath's bleeds that get deflected to my grand prey) - his finishing ability, once Shalmath has cleaned the place.

> Pascal wrote: > I'm still looking for a rule question in here.. > Hmm, well to keep this topic relevant here, I do have one. It has to do with ordering effects. In a bleed of greater than 1, can I Andre LeRoux's special and then Spying Mission on the same bleed? Both require a "would be successful" bleed therefore the bleed must equal at least 1 by the time Spying Mission goes off. So a "would be successful" bleed for 2 can be reduced by one to get +2 for LeRoux, then since it's still at least 1, play Spying Mission to store +2 bleed for a future bleed. Naturally this only works in this order, but it's legal, yes? Andre LeRoux Toreador Capacity: 3 Group: 5 Camarilla: When a vampire you control would successfully bleed, you may reduce the bleed amount by 1 to give Andre +2 bleed this turn. Spying Mission Action Modifier Obfuscate obf: +1 stealth. OBF: Only usable when a bleed would be successful. The bleed burns no pool; it is unsuccessful. Instead, put this card on the acting vampire. The next time this vampire would successfully bleed the same Methuselah, burn this card for +2 bleed. If so, I have an OBF Assamite Alamut Death Star deck to adapt.

> Azel wrote: > Hmm, well to keep this topic relevant here, I do have one. It has to do with ordering effects. In a bleed of greater than 1, can I Andre LeRoux's special and then Spying Mission on the same bleed? > Yes. > Azel wrote: > Both require a "would be successful" bleed therefore the bleed must equal at least 1 by the time Spying Mission goes off. So a "would be successful" bleed for 2 can be reduced by one to get +2 for LeRoux, then since it's still at least 1, play Spying Mission to store +2 bleed for a future bleed. Naturally this only works in this order, but it's legal, yes? > Sure.