PKC seeks to attack the V:EKN

I let the community build their own opinion about the current effort of PKC to influence the creation of the official V:EKN set. Sent by E-Mail from Jeff Kuta: > > FOR THE ATTENTION OF THE OFFICER IN CHARGE OF HANDLING COPYRIGHT > COMPLAINTS, OTHERWISE THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, PRESIDENT OR > CHAIRMAN > > Dear Johannes Walch (V:EKN Chairman), > Antonio Cobo Cuenca (V:EKN Vice Chairman), > David Tatu (V:EKN Scribe), > Pascal Bertrand (V:EKN Rules Director), > Ginés Quiñonero (V:EKN Web Coordinator), > Robyn Tatu (V:EKN Ratings Coordinator), and > Robert Goudie (V:EKN Chairman Emeritus): > > Without Prejudice > > It has come to our attention, based on posts by Johannes Walch on the > public forums at the web site found at www.vekn.net, that the > organization called Vampire: Elder Kindred Network (V:EKN), of which > you are members of the governing body known as the Inner Circle, is > unlawfully using our copyrighted material entitled Guardians of the > Faith (the «Work»). > > By your admission, the V:EKN appears to be undertaking a project, > called Danse Macabre, which contains the aforementioned copyrighted > creative work collectively belonging to Carl Pilhatsch, Eric Chiang > and Jeff Kuta. Posts from Johannes Walch's user account implying this > improper usage can be found at: > > vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/36285-guardians-of-the-faith-a-pdf-vtes-set-by-pck?limit=1&start=29 > vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/36285-guardians-of-the-faith-a-pdf-vtes-set-by-pck?limit=1&start=60 > > We categorically disagree with your assertions and insinuations to the > contrary regarding our sole, legitimate and lawful ownership of the > Work. > > Our Work has been licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution > Non-Commercial NoDerivs 3.0 Unported (CC BY-NC-ND 3.0) license > (creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/), and we reserve > all rights granted thereby. > > However your intended use of the above Work, in full or partial form, > inferred from the bulleted forum comments listed above, willfully > neglects or ignores our reserved rights and may violate the > prohibition upon the «Commercial Use.» > > Given the above, your use of the copyrighted Work falls outside of the > narrow permissions granted by this Creative Commons license. We > believe you have willfully infringed on our rights under 17 U.S.C. > Section 101 et seq. and could be liable for statutory damages as set > forth in Section 504(c)(2) therein. Furthermore, if any of our > intellectual property rights granted under European Union Law > (including but not limited to the EU Copyright Directive) or the laws > of sovereign European nations have been breached, we reserve the right > to pursue statutory damages as appropriate (including but not limited > to the EU Enforcement Directive). > > We hereby demand that you immediately cease and desist use of the Work. > > Based upon the foregoing, we hereby demand that you confirm to us in > writing within ten (10) days of receipt of this letter that: (i) you > have removed the aforementioned infringing items derived from our > Work; and (ii) you will refrain from infringing upon our copyright(s) > using any material on the Internet, Application or any other service > you control in the future. > > Sincerely, > > Carl Pilhatsch, Eric Chiang and Jeff Kuta >

ok. apparently, they're not willing. sad day.

Dear Carl, Eric and Jeff Are you aware that a major portion of the work you claim copyright on is already copyrighted, trademarked and patented by the companies that created World of Darkness and Vampire: The Eternal Struggle. Jussi Hattara Webmaster Extraordinaire Finnish Politics!

They should be banned from sanctioned tournaments. Excommunicated from the vekn, as they dont want to participate in our community. This move shows how low somebody can sink for a bruised ego. Sad, really sad. - Prince of Karlsruhe, Germany

I certainly hope they are aware that they are playing hardball within a copyright that does not even remotely belong to them. Creative Commons doesn't supplant copyright at all. It requires it, and is in many ways completely dependent on it being crystal clear. Creative works protected under what they are blankly invoking need to be far more specific than they are being here, so I would be elaborating very carefully in the coming days as to what exactly they believe is protected, especially when doing so around an existing commercial intellectual property. Dangerous waters, gentlemen.

Somebody please tell me this is a late April Fool's day joke. I do not understand the purpose of this .... other than taking a stand to harass (but the minion is not tapped nor has any blood been lost )the VEKN ruling body and by extension the VEKn community. Does someone else see this differently? VTES is not for the faint of heart...especially when you don't have a enough blood. Prince Of Geneva

Thanks for publicly posting this. Carl, Eric and Jeff — first you volunteered to try and help the game, now your actively trying to destroy it. You should grow up and move on — your egos have gotten the better of you. Ke Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook

> Killjoy71 wrote: > Does someone else see this differently? > I think it is a safe assertion that they do.

If the purpose is to rant, bitch and moan then I believe that has already been done in previous posts. Can the PKC not move onward from this? VTES is not for the faint of heart...especially when you don't have a enough blood. Prince Of Geneva

right... 1st of all, the title of this topic made me laugh. hard. and for quite some time. I just wonder how many people and for how long will continue to buy this bullcrap you're selling them. This is pure propaganda and I suggest to get the spokesman ASAP, because you obviously fail at this. boohoo doomsady approaching, PCK seeks to attack the VEKN, we need to destroy the heathens and ill-believers. Seriously? I mean...are you for real? VEKN screwed the PCK over, that's a fact. Anyone who has any project management experience in global environment (as I happen to have), combined with the ability to read between the lines, can see this clearly. May I remind you that the initial message from PCK which started this whole thing has never been addressed... Obviously it would be highly convenient for the VEKN if PCK would just remove themselves, disappear and never show up again. But things don't work this way. So why not make them the bane of VTES and everything that's dear for us, right? After all, those who aren't with us are against us. Let's face the one and simple fact - this is an ego issue. There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING preventing the VEKN from using PCK's cards - all you have to do is to acknowledge who designed them. That's it. In all honesty, I'm getting more and more tired of these childish arguments I see here. And - trust me on that - I'm not the only one. So yeah, as Erol suggested - let's go further. Let's ban people from tournaments for disagreeing with you. Such an awesome idea, so why the hell not? This would be a fantastic opportunity to show everyone what a lovely community we are. Please go ahead and delude yourselves further. Please go ahead and flame me for what I just wrote - someone had to, so I might as well be the 1st one to flame, no biggie.

I suppose it goes without saying, I'm disappointed in PCK for this. There is SO much copyrighted material in your work that by even attempting this you're putting your own livelihoods, houses and futures seriously on the line over a bruised ego? I've seen those documents from 'before the split' as part of the playtest... and they didn't have PCK listed as the copyright holders. You guys are willing to set yourselves up to lose everything to a mean-spirited lawyer from Hasbro? For the sake of your families, just drop it and put away your ego. It's not going to help you, it's not going to help VTES and it certainly won't help you in many other ways. There may have been some significant good-will for all of you 9 months ago, but now there is none left. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> dude_PL wrote: > Let's face the one and simple fact - this is an ego issue. There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING preventing the VEKN from using PCK's cards - all you have to do is to acknowledge who designed them. That's it. In all honesty, I'm getting more and more tired of these childish arguments I see here. And - trust me on that - I'm not the only one. > By their claims just acknowledging them is not enough. By slapping CC-BY-NC on them they are saying that the cards they designed or parts of them can't be used if VTES ever gets back to print, without first asking for their permission. Also, they haven't named a single specific item that they are claiming copyright on. By claiming copyright on everything, names, designs, discipline spreads, discipline icons, they are claiming copyright on stuff they can't. If there are specific points of copyright they want to claim, they need to specify them. They can't claim copyright on the name of a card which has previously been published in WoD as a vampire. They can't claim copyright on spread of disciplines on a vampire that has been published with a similar enough discipline spread in WoD. Jussi Hattara Webmaster Extraordinaire Finnish Politics!

True (partially) but this gets us back to intentions. What I gathered from my brief discussions with the PCK, there would be no issue at all if any form of dialogue would appear and it is not their intention (and never has been) to destroy the game or the community. Those guys love the game as much as you all do. What we have here is not dialogue, this is a full scale war.

@dude_PL Yes it is about egos, potentially on both sides. But "Cease and Desist" orders aren't exactly what I would call a nothing move. It requires a claim of copyright to specific cards, which if you ask any number of the Playtesters is about as thin as you can get. Because of the way they've set up their copyright, they're claiming to own all of the material required to print a VTES card which includes (but not a complete list): Card border art Card layout Fonts Discipline Icons Sects Character details If PCK want to take the gamble of losing their homes to this ego trip, I'd say they're far more likely to be bankrupt than seeing anything remotely like an apology from the VEKN and their cards in print as they are designed. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

Guys, seriously, WTF?! ;___; Good points, dude_PL - especially with what kind of a community VEKN has become. I've found myself wondering on a couple of occasions in the past two months if I should link the site to a potential new player or not. The site has the rulebook and lots of great stuff, but they also have the forums, which I wouldn't really want to show to anyone new to the game. This farce is a shame, possibly on every account, and to both sides. Just... christ. //sigh Krausedit\\ Also, hasn't Johannes told already that the PKC (or whatever) cards wouldn't be used anyways? "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

So, to be clear, they attack the V:EKN on the basis that, maybe, part of their work may be included in a vague fashion in a still unreleased set ? They are apple fanboy and try the same intimidation tactic ? Or they just try to appear as stupid as humanly possible ? In any case, now I can confidently say that I have no more any shade of sympathy or respect to them now. @dude_pl : it's true that Johannes have been less than polite. But here it is akin to launch a full scale nuclear war because of a parking ticket.

This is now ridiculous. Simply, from PCK, this is quite pointless (and childish). Please, for the game, put aside your differencies with the IC. I hope, you can use your judgement, feedbacks and such to figure out that your stance, actions, and the set you've created are not received as you wanted. Just let this case end. Maybe, the Laibon themed set you're planning will get a better response, and if the dispute between you and the community can be solved, it may become an official set (no, i'm not too optimistic, nor retarded...).

> dude_PL wrote: > Let's face the one and simple fact - this is an ego issue. There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING preventing the VEKN from using PCK's cards - all you have to do is to acknowledge who designed them. That's it. > Actually, PKC have chosen to use a non-derivative license, which means that assuming you acknowledge this as their work to copyright in the first place (a point which I don't have enough information to comment on), you have to use the card exactly as they presented it or not at all. This would mean that you cannot add artwork to it, you could not change the text to be more clear or better balance the card, etc.

their card ideas sucked anyway OOPS THAT JUST BROKE THE NON-DISCLOSURE AGREEMENT THAT I SI-- *user banned*

@Mael so you mean there's like no way in hell to talk about it and find the middle ground regarding those cards, because it's set in stone and forever will be? ok, I'll disagree here. again - dialogue. something that doesn't seem to exist here. assuming, of course, that what you wrote is 100% correct (I'm at work now, so I have neither the time nor the will to check that right now). I think that you guys are obsessed with the wrong thing - none of these would happen, no issues would appear if PEOPLE WERE WILLING TO TALK. oh and on the quality of the set (while we're at it) - personally I like a number of cards from the PCK set and I'd like to see them in action. judging by the fact that we have an issue here, it seems to me that the VEKN could actually plan to use some of these cards (perhaps in a modified form). would you all still whine about the "crapness" of this set if it was "VEKN official" (whatever that means)?

> dude_PL wrote: > @Mael > so you mean there's like no way in hell to talk about it and find the middle ground regarding those cards, because it's set in stone and forever will be? ok, I'll disagree here. again - dialogue. something that doesn't seem to exist here. > A Cease and Desist letter is not a precursor to dialog. It is a statement that they are not interested in dialog. What do you think would be an acceptable middle ground here? Perhaps that the VEKN would not use any card that were entirely created by PKC, but would not be free to possibly use the same sources as the cards that PKC used when creating their set? Wait, that's basically what Johannes said, so obviously you think a bigger compromise is needed? What compromise would you suggest that doesn't grant PKC ownership of all work done by everyone on the design team before they left? When PKC first took their stance of leaving the design team for the reasons they gave I was completely sympathetic towards them (as I have left companies for similar reasons as the ones they gave). Their actions since then have convinced me otherwise. Edit: If you mean specifically about there being no possibility to change the cards that's what the non-derivative part of the license means. > > creativecommons.org wrote: > No Derivative Works — You may not alter, transform, or build upon this work. >

I agree with Mael. You don't send in the lawyer when you want to discuss. They have not even tried to give an ultimatum or anything. Maybe they are passioned by the game, but they are actually doing as much good for VtES as spanish inquisition to christianity.

Jesus Christ what a fucking joke. Can't we like, just ban these clowns and move on? > @Mael > so you mean there's like no way in hell to talk about it and find the middle ground regarding those cards, because it's set in stone and forever will be? ok, I'll disagree here. again - dialogue. something that doesn't seem to exist here. > The dialogue ship sailed a long time ago. > When PKC first took their stance of leaving the design team for the reasons they gave I was completely sympathetic towards them (as I have left companies for similar reasons as the ones they gave). Their actions since then have convinced me otherwise. > I share this sentiment.

As the good doctor Lecter reminded us: Of each particular thing ask: what is it in itself? What is its nature?" Of this particular thing I believe it is an example of hurt pride and envy. I heard a story about one of our politicians, who, as a young boy, always brought his football to the field. If he was on the winning team, the game continued to the usual end. However, if he was on the losing team, he simply took the ball and went home. This is the nature of what is happening. "I like to think there always are ...possibilities." Spock

I agree with Izaak. I was sort of sympathetic to PCK before all this bruhaha. Now they've shown their true colors it seems. So lame, so very lame.

this is why we can't have nice things.

> Kraus wrote: > Krausedit\\ Also, hasn't Johannes told already that the PKC (or whatever) cards wouldn't be used anyways? > That is the best part. Their whole thing is not even relevant, partly because we didn´t release anything and mostly because it doesn´t contain any of their original ideas. I stand by the fact that we will not use any of their original ideas. Of course we might have vampires with the same names, because the names from canon (edit) were not the idea of PKC. Or we might have a 3-cap with for/dom, because it is hardly an original idea to create such a vampire.

> dude_PL wrote: > I think that you guys are obsessed with the wrong thing - none of these would happen, no issues would appear if PEOPLE WERE WILLING TO TALK. > People were willing to talk. There was simply the problem that after a couple of weeks (nevertheless!) the talks were going in circles because one or the other side wasn´t willing to give in on this or that point. At that point they (one-sided) took the decision to take the discussion public at which point I basically fired them from the design team (long story put short). Even then I offered to include as much of their work as is usable in the set and giving them credits for it, but as others have correctly stated in this thread this wasn´t to their liking. I might point out that the Design Team has invested substantial *extra effort* to remove any original idea that might be possibly from PKC. I am glad we did it. In the end then the VEKN decided to leave them alone in the assumption they would leave us alone. Check for any negative comment from the IC in the release of their set! There is none. Because it is fine, they can release cards as much as they want, I wish them no bad for it. Everyone has a right to their free opinion. It seems though that they can´t leave US alone, and I fail to understand that.

This whole affair is an attack against the game itself and if the trio does not understand that, they are not only bitter poor card designers (yes, most of their design is crap and when a majority told them so this farse started) but seriously stupid. These things can be very devestating to a game (especially one under resurrection) so Dude and everyone else doing so - please stop supporting these advanced trolls for the greater good! www.lordoftheclog.blogspot.com

So, the VEKN wont use their cards. Problem solved? Unless there is something else that PCK would like to be done before they let off the lawyering? I never understood what started the whole debacle anyways, something about people not liking their designs and the design process being slow and unresponsive? Ivan - Maybe this?

> I never understood what started the whole debacle anyways, something about people not liking their designs and the design process being slow and unresponsive? > As a complete outsider, going by the information publicly available on these boards I'm guessing the following: 1) New set is announced. Opinions are asked, mixed feelings are expressed with a general lean towards "hey cool idea, as long as you do it right". Designers are appointed based on criteria that I have no know of. 2) Things kick off smoothly and a first pass of cards is made 3) The design team leader, Ben Peal, suffers from some issues in his personal sphere and is unable to communicate with VEKN for a lengthy period of time as a result 4) PCK takes up the brunt of the work while everyone else sits and waits for Ben to returns. 5) Ben Peal eventually returns and design work is being picked up by the rest of the team. Most of PCK's cards are dismissed as crap and removed from playtesting rounds (and given what they published earlier, this seems to make sense...) 6) PCK gets mad that Ben removes their cards from development and drama ensues. 7) Jeff K (the K in PCK) eventually leaves the design team, swiftly followed by Eric Chiang (the C in PCK) who also gets kicked from the IC /Storyline coordinator in the process. 8) More drama ensues. // at this point most people, including myself, can sympathize with PCK but feels they should just move on 9) Shit settles and everyone forgets about it. 10) Johannes posts good news about VTES maybe maybe maybe seeing some printed cards again. 11) People rejoice! 12) PCK comes in to poop on the party and reveals their "expansion". 13) People treat their "expansion" as just another thread filled with card ideas. 14) People say that this is not a good idea and the copyright crap is both stupid and not even remotely legal either. 15) People express their generic disinterest and mostly tell them most of the cards are bad and that some might be useful given proper tweaking. 16) PCK, sensing lack of support from the community, gets annoyed and looks to exact revenge on VEKN by invoking their copyright in the stupendous mail in the initial post. 17) More drama ensues. Now, I don't think it's very gentlemen-like from the chairman to actually post this mail in public, but it does shine a new light on the situation.

If the new card set gets released and PKC gets lawyers involved, I guess we'll find out who actually has a legitimate claim to intellectual property rights. Might give some insight as to the rest of the disagreement as well. Still, all very unfortunate.

> Robba wrote: > If the new card set gets released and PKC gets lawyers involved, I guess we'll find out who actually has a legitimate claim to intellectual property rights. Might give some insight as to the rest of the disagreement as well. > Judges are not psychics. They will try to ascertain this by comparing the Dance Macabre set and the Guardian of Faith set. It mean that some people that don't have any idea about how the game work and how it is related to the RPG will have to decide. It is extremely likely that who look the more honest will be more important than anything else, simply because it is far too technical for such a nonimportant issue. On another note, I suppose that print on demand for VtES will never happen. Thank, Jeff and co. You just finished VtES.

Woe is us! Fie upon your house Jeff Kuta and PKC! Jeff Kuta is single-handedly trying to destroy VTES! First he decided to show up every week to play cards, then he ousted me, and then he even had the nerve to try and suggest how I could build my deck better to improve my game. Can you believe the gall of this guy? He even trades cards time and again, although I'm sure he's merely planning to rip us off and destroy our local group. What ego this guy has! He's such a disruptive and destructive influence that he offered to carpool down to the last tournament where he proceeded to oust me, again. I'm so outraged that these upstarts have taken it upon themselves to not only try and support the game, but then play better than I! Now, some might call it an extreme move, but I'm grateful I played sudden reversal cross-table on Jeff's Unnamed oh those tournaments ago. My only regret is that I couldn't do it again! Now, the VEKN must take immediate action against these interlopers and their attempts to participate in the design process of new sets. How dare they not submit to their total dismissal by the secretive cabal of the design team? How dare they not willingly accept the wholesale dismissal of their work in favor of the ever so wonderful Danse Macabre set - which I'm sure we all greatly look forward to in all its balanced glory - without having their grievances addressed? How dare they, these tournament supporting, storyline writing, card designing interlopers, how dare they attempt to distance to have what remains of their work removed from this new set unless used with attribution? They seek nothing more than the complete destruction of this holy game and all its glories. Fie on you all PKC! May your bleeds be deflected and your votes be delayed! Long live the inner circle in its infinite wisdom! I daily praise the gods for allowing me to bask in the wisdom of their machinations in occultu. Now chant with me: Kuta delenda est! Kuta delenda est! Baron of Berkeley

> Count wrote: > Long live the inner circle in its infinite wisdom! I daily praise the gods for allowing me to bask in the wisdom of their machinations in occultu. > I have serious grief against Johannes, because they were more rude than acceptable at the start of this mess. Still, they don't have started a legal war that mean any firm that want to actually make money ill stay the fuck away from this mess. For a long time. So, PCK may be right to try to have their wrong corrected, but they are still fucking retarded to not see that they are sinking any hope for a revival for the sake of petty disputes. I will actually reverse what I have said to Johannes : what have VEKN done to you, PCK ? Do they have hired goons to piss on your book collection ? Do they have sent you the jead of your favorite horse ?

Of course the PCK have the best intentions. Of course there's nothing to worry about. Or not? We could really use some reaction from you guys (PCK). Tell us what you want to do. Or does it mean so little to you? Tell us and stop the speculations. "I like to think there always are ...possibilities." Spock

> Daidalos wrote: > Of course the PCK have the best intentions. Of course there's nothing to worry about. Or not? We could really use some reaction from you guys (PCK). Tell us what you want to do. Or does it mean so little to you? Tell us and stop the speculations. > Especially since their act support the idea that they completely forgot their original goal (helping the VEKN because they feel Johannes and the IC lacking) and instead just try to cause as much damage as they can to Johannes. I could see the Guardian of faith release as an understable move. But the cease and desist about a set not yet revealed is a jerk move that can, and probably will, smother any hope of serious VtES revival.

I'd suggest we should just ignore them from now on. Baron of Frankfurt

My advice: 1. Make sure Danse Macbre does not contain any card (card ideas) from the PCK-made set. 2. Move on.

> extrala wrote: > My advice: > 1. Make sure Danse Macbre does not contain any card (card ideas) from the PCK-made set. > 2. Move on. > 3. Cross table these players at all opportunities. Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook

> johannes wrote: > It seems though that {PCK} can´t leave {the VEKN} alone, and I fail to understand that. > Johannes, it's pretty easy, actually. Evidently only rude people can see it, though. Since, as you say, you are removing all of their original ideas, and, as you say, everything else is copyrighted and trademarked material to which they have no ability to assert license, regardless of their hubris, the result is that they have been completely removed and expunged from the VTES history books. They have nothing and they are nothing. And having so badly misjudged both their organizational power and their ability to control you, the VEKN, the play test, and the community opinion, they refuse to accept that they have been rendered moot. What they have left is the tiny, dark universe of unreality where they live, which is slowly contracting in upon itself with every bungled power play, with every failed legal maneuver, with every desperate attempt to climb back into the light. I predict that soon one of them will turn on the others as they attempt to place blame in an attempt to gain leverage and forgiveness and be allowed to return to the light. And if that fails, their attacks upon the community will escalate to such a point that even their staunchest allies will shun them and cast them aside, their accounts will be banned, and they won't be allowed to play in sanctioned tournaments. I seriously hope and pray that none of them considers real-world physical harm to themselves or to others as a solution to them having been declared a zero. In the past, I have called two of these players 'friend' and was in regular communication with one of them on a biweekly-basis for years. I enjoyed the time I spent with them and I would have -- and did -- do much for them as friends, as players, and as part of the community, even up until this past May at the NAC. It makes me truly sad that, as the diseased tissue is trying to fester its way into the healthy body of our players, the amputation of a portion of our community is the only recourse we have left. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> extrala wrote: > My advice: > 1. Make sure Danse Macbre does not contain any card (card ideas) from the PCK-made set. > 2. Move on. > I thought that we'd already handled points 1 and 2. Even the forum URLs they included in their document are references to us saying we aren't going to use their ideas. Hard to know what concrete actions to take towards the goal when you are already there. _________________ Robert Goudie

> Robert wrote: > > > extrala wrote: > > My advice: > > 1. Make sure Danse Macbre does not contain any card (card ideas) from the PCK-made set. > > 2. Move on. > > > I thought that we'd already handled points 1 and 2. > > Even the forum URLs they included in their document are references to us saying we aren't going to use their ideas. Hard to know what concrete actions to take towards the goal when you are already there. > Then I fail to see the necessity of Johannes posting Jeff's email.

> extrala wrote: > > > Robert wrote: > > > > > extrala wrote: > > > My advice: > > > 1. Make sure Danse Macbre does not contain any card (card ideas) from the PCK-made set. > > > 2. Move on. > > > > > I thought that we'd already handled points 1 and 2. > > > > Even the forum URLs they included in their document are references to us saying we aren't going to use their ideas. Hard to know what concrete actions to take towards the goal when you are already there. > > > Then I fail to see the necessity of Johannes posting Jeff's email. > This!!!

> dude_PL wrote: > > > extrala wrote: > > > > > Robert wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > extrala wrote: > > > > My advice: > > > > 1. Make sure Danse Macbre does not contain any card (card ideas) from the PCK-made set. > > > > 2. Move on. > > > > > > > I thought that we'd already handled points 1 and 2. > > > > > > Even the forum URLs they included in their document are references to us saying we aren't going to use their ideas. Hard to know what concrete actions to take towards the goal when you are already there. > > > > > Then I fail to see the necessity of Johannes posting Jeff's email. > > > This!!! > I guess sometimes people get annoyed when someone pulls a dick move. I can understand it although it might have been unnecessary to call attention to it. Ivan - Maybe this?

Time will tell whether the PKC move is Delaying Tactics (delay, mire down) Legal Manipulations (a bleed, an outright attack) Vendetta (righteous defense) or perhaps just a Frenzy. Regardless, as a cross-table to the whole affair, it seems that VEKN is not only in a stronger position, but also shares my goals at this stage of the game. VtES store : www.prunesquallor.net Card supplies & games : stores.ebay.com/Prunesquallors-Secret-Cache

Dear V:TES Community: We privately sent the cease and desist letter to the V:EKN Inner Circle (at 1:00AM GMT on September 27th, 2012) because we wanted to privately resolve the issue and not jeopardize any future attempts to publish V:TES. Carl, Eric, and Jeff When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Jeff wrote: > Dear V:TES Community: > > We privately sent the cease and desist letter to the V:EKN Inner Circle (at 1:00AM GMT on September 27th, 2012) because we wanted to privately resolve the issue and not jeopardize any future attempts to publish V:TES. > The fact that you used the word "privately" with "resolve the issue" just made me laugh. V:EKN Website Coordinator

As Wil Wheaton would say.... Don't be a dick.

having had the time to sit down and read the entire thread and not be on my phone, I have this to say: Let them rattle their sabers. no court in america would hear the case unless the VEKN starts making significant money off of this. Even then, what they're doing is tantamount to trying to copyright their VTES fan-fiction.

> Jeff wrote: > Dear V:TES Community: > > We privately sent the cease and desist letter to the V:EKN Inner Circle (at 1:00AM GMT on September 27th, 2012) because we wanted to privately resolve the issue and not jeopardize any future attempts to publish V:TES. > > Carl, Eric, and Jeff > There is only two options : * you have not thought of the logical consequence, which is scaring away any firm that would try to republish this - since VEKN will have to reveal this in the negociation if they have any shade of honesty lie. In which case you are not very smart. (well, more like fucking stupid) * you don't care about that and the "not jeopardize" is a lie. It seem way more likely to be honest. People say "it's not a big deal". It's stupid to say that. If Jeff go seriously in a trial, regardless of what is in Dance Macabre, there is a significant chance he would win, which since VEKN have not fund will bankrupt it. Also, for editing VtES, the potential financial gain are far weaker than any legal risk, so any sane firm will at least wait the issue to be entirely resolved before doing anything. And it can take several years.

> Jeff wrote: > Dear V:TES Community: > > We privately sent the cease and desist letter to the V:EKN Inner Circle (at 1:00AM GMT on September 27th, 2012) because we wanted to privately resolve the issue and not jeopardize any future attempts to publish V:TES. > > Carl, Eric, and Jeff > I truly hope this is the case, although I have to point out that sending a Cease and Desist letter is not exactly reaching out a friendly hand in hopes of reconciliation. On the other hand, putting mails of an infected situation on a forum like this is hardly reconciliatory either. In any case, the release of any eventual fan made expansion is not really necessary in any way. Personally I'd rather just stop the whole thing if it means that the game has a larger chance of getting published again and just not worry about it. Ivan - Maybe this?

Myrdin - it could be presumed that part of the reason for VTES having a possibility to be picked up is that sets can be designed and produced by an official fan body and then printed leading to a new revenue stream

> Jeff wrote: > Dear V:TES Community: > > We privately sent the cease and desist letter to the V:EKN Inner Circle (at 1:00AM GMT on September 27th, 2012) because we wanted to privately resolve the issue and not jeopardize any future attempts to publish V:TES. > > Carl, Eric, and Jeff > 1am? Seriously? That doesn't sound like it was meant to let people sleep. This is not a 'private resolution'. A private resolution would be a Memorandum of Understanding... this seems like a first-shot. Cease and Desist orders require people to be trading on copyrighted materials. There is nothing available for public consumption. Also, would you three also be happy to remove your material if such a letter was sent to you at 1am by Hasbro and/or CCP (since your material is freely and publicly available)? Also, if people want to really get pointy, there is the thought that you are condoning industrial espionage since I remember the details of the playtesting agreement including basically "Don't talk about what's in the set unless you've signed the deal". And you three have publicly admitted to not signing any such agreement, but you still claim that your material is currently being worked on by the VEKN. So either, you are looking at information that dates back to when you were in the Design Team (AFAIK 6-9 months old) OR you are encouraging others to break their NDA (which would be promoting industrial espionage) so you could make your claims. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Squidalot wrote: > Myrdin - it could be presumed that part of the reason for VTES having a possibility to be picked up is that sets can be designed and produced by an official fan body and then printed leading to a new revenue stream > That is true, which would make this whole conflict even more sad. Looking at options I don't see any scenario in which PKC's actions at the moment would mean to stabilize and strenghthen the game. Although they might see some solution which I'm missing. If they don't approve of the VEKN they might just as well diverge from it, which in any case would not strengthen the game either. There is just no way to win this atm imho. Sad things when there is more than enough sad times to spare. Ivan - Maybe this?

> Myrdin wrote: > In any case, the release of any eventual fan made expansion is not really necessary in any way. Personally I'd rather just stop the whole thing if it means that the game has a larger chance of getting published again and just not worry about it. > This is mostly about proving that a VTES set makes money. If a fan-made, low-advertised, 'on the cheap' set, can make money (proper money) and that it's worth investing in. Or at the dead worst, we'll convince CCP/Hasbro that they can make some money off their IP without doing any real work than creating a licensing contract (which would be a few thousand dollars instead of half-a-million of investment). Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

Sickened, saddened, shocked by all of this petty BS. Just hope this sort of division in the community doesn't mean the Final Death for our beloved games' chance at future publication. If it does, then thanks. Thanks a lot.

not to mention C&D letters are usually drafted by attorneys and sent via certified mail at the very least.

> Myrdin wrote: > There is just no way to win this atm imho. > Sure there is. PCK could recind their CC copyright and allow the VEKN to proceed with their set unabated. They'll never, ever DO that, but they certainly COULD do that. I'm fully aware that the trend in morality today is not to judge and to minimize bad behavior to the point that there is no "good", but don't fool yourself. There absolutely IS a solution here. And, yes, technically there is *another* option here, but it'd destroy the Design Team, the play test team, the VEKN, and thereby the game itself, so I choose not to define that as a "solution". Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> KevinM wrote: > > > Myrdin wrote: > > There is just no way to win this atm imho. > > > Sure there is. PCK could recind their CC copyright and allow the VEKN to proceed with their set unabated. They'll never, ever DO that, but they certainly COULD do that. > totally not a lawyer here, but i'm pretty sure PCK can't copyright things that are already copyrighted. like vampires names as they're sourced elsewhere. i would also assume the discipline spread of a vampire is also sourced in White Wolf cannon as well. again, PCK seems to be trying to copyrighting its glorified alt/sash/fanfic. honestly, the more i think about this, the more absurd it seems. seriously, why don't y'all show each other your penises and get to the heart of the matter?

@self biased: Exactly! Which was what i posted in the Guardians of the Faith thread, and if they go to court then they will have their egotistical asses handed to them. Some of the vamps were taken from the Giovanni Chronicles I Last Supper and has been WW canon since that book came out (eg. Lady Jadviga Almanova,Lord Mieczyslav,Matron Violetta 6th gen NPC's) from Transylvania Chronicles (Tiberiu the messenger 10th gen Gangrel, Arnulf the Beast 6th gen Gangrel sire of Mitru the Hunter), Parovich (Chicago Chronicles elder, 7th gen primogen in Milwaukee) from Iberia by Night and Veil of Night (Badr,8th gen), Maria Sandoza (Nights of Prophecy), Cedilia the Tongue (Montreal by Night)Pamela Ford (11th gen,Storyteller's Handbook of the Sabbat),Piotr Krezhinsky (8th gen childer of Darvag, the butcher of Rus; Transylvania Chronicles). Need i say more.

no but that that's a healthy overview of canon you have there i hope you get yourself on a vekn playtest team...

Dear PCK - three questions: 1. What _exactly_ are you trying to accomplish with this? 2. Do you have any idea how this make you look? 3. Is it worth it? "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > Dear PCK - three questions: > > 1. What _exactly_ are you trying to accomplish with this? > 2. Do you have any idea how this make you look? > 3. Is it worth it? > I am wondering the same. I can understand the argue between PKC and Vekn. I could even understand PKC releasing their own set (which many players didnt even like so much). But this "lawsuit" just blows my mind. I really can't think of any other reason for this than trying to be a dick and try to harm the whole Vtes as much as possible. I would like to hear how this thing benefits Vtes and me as a normal player. I don't care about power struggles and drama so much.

ok the last few pages were fun, let's go on and btw. since we started using the "F" words more frequently, I'm not going to stop myself either Anyway... 1. I happen to be a free thinker, therefore I will support whoever I choose to and I will reserve the right to change my mind whenever I choose to, thank you very much. 2. What some of you consider "support" is actually me trying to stay objective (it is hard, I admit that), simply because I don't have enough data to choose sides. However, just by following my gut and considering the fact that the VEKN treats secrecy as a tool of convenience (ie. we won't tell because it's a secret - when it can harm us, but we'll disclose private emails whenever that suits our cause) naturally my point of view on this issue is as it is. So - while I openly admit of being sympathetic towards the PCK - this is not a support of what PCK does, this is the lack of support of what the VEKN does. Just so we're clear. If the VEKN ever chooses to stop being selectively secretive, I might actually change my mind. 3. I strongly believe that nobody will sue anybody over anything. This is a fan organization in conflict with other fans developing a fan set, no lawyer with the right mind would give a fuck - the only thing that can happen is somebody recruits the lawyer to the game after listening to the explanations of what VTES and VEKN are (after they stop laughing at this "issue", that is). No potential investor / publisher will give a fuck either, as they can simply ignore everything they don't like (they're investing in the product because they have a target that will buy it, that is the only reason). Nobody is going to destroy the game, the VEKN etc. What we see is a power play combined with an ego issue, which is even more ironic, since this is not a business, there's no money involved and - I'll say it again - nobody outside of this forum gives a fuck about this anyway. 4. I said it once, I will say it again - the communication between the VEKN and its members is pathetic. The OP is a very good example - the title is the verdict at the same time, and then we get one sentence that graciously allows us to build our own opinion. Apparently somebody's been reading The Sun (or other crap newspapers in your country) too much... 5. Ignorance + fear = hatred. Think about this next time before you post (this is to all the hate speech folks). The truth is that we know shit about what's really going on, because it's a "secret", until it becomes convenient not to make it a secret anymore. I'm not posting because I praise what PCK does, I'm posting because I don't like the direction the VEKN is going. At all. 6. Finally, my favourite part - banning people from the VEKN and the tournaments. Really? I mean seriously - do you really want to go there? Let's think about this for a moment, shall we? What is your authority to ban anyone? On what basis? Who gave you the right to forbid people playing the game they love and have been playing for more than 10 years? How are you planning to execute that? Penalize those guys who allowed the banned people to attend the tournament? Any other bright ideas? Let's go further - ban me, just for the fun of it. After the players in my country stop laughing their asses off, they will show you the middle finger, simple as that. You really have to face the fact that you have close to no authority outside of this forum and the majority of the global playerbase doesn't even come here. They simply don't care - all they want is to play the game they love, with their friends, for as long as it is still possible. So I wouldn't really go into the legitimacy and authority talks if I were you. Additionally, as it was mentioned in this topic, this forum is getting so bad (mostly because of constant battles and petty games that help absolutely noone) that people are reluctant to recommend it to other players in their playgroups. Think about that during your next power struggle. So the only nuisance left in the banning issue is the EC, since if I'm banned, I can't attend it. If you banned PCK last year, I would still welcome them to the EC in Warsaw, because in the end it is the organizer's decision. I don't think that the guys from Hungary will be extremely happy that you forbid certain players to attend their tournament and spend money on games / hotels / food / partying and having awesome time. So to sum it up... I don't give a flying fuck if you like me, agree with me and what not. All I care about is the future of the game I've devoted 16 years of my life to. The fact that group A can't talk with group B is not my problem. Therefore, I want you to stay the fuck away with your drama. Keep it to yourselves and while you're at it - do your job. This game will not die because of PCK or VEKN. This game dies when the community dies. Sadly, I have the impression that this will be the only "success" we will see in the near future.

> dude_PL wrote: > 2. What some of you consider "support" is actually me trying to stay objective (it is hard, I admit that), simply because I don't have enough data to choose sides. However, just by following my gut and considering the fact that the VEKN treats secrecy as a tool of convenience (ie. we won't tell because it's a secret - when it can harm us, but we'll disclose private emails whenever that suits our cause) naturally my point of view on this issue is as it is. So - while I openly admit of being sympathetic towards the PCK - this is not a support of what PCK does, this is the lack of support of what the VEKN does. Just so we're clear. If the VEKN ever chooses to stop being selectively secretive, I might actually change my mind. > I think your assessment is incorrect. Since the whole drama started publicly I have made every communication between them and us that followed public. The only thing that remained private is the hundreds of pages the preceded those events. This is not out of manipulative considerations, this is because of practical reasons (it would take hours to post) and because generally the assumption back then was it was private and I am not going to breach it. > dude_PL wrote: > 4. I said it once, I will say it again - the communication between the VEKN and its members is pathetic. The OP is a very good example - the title is the verdict at the same time, and then we get one sentence that graciously allows us to build our own opinion. Apparently somebody's been reading The Sun (or other crap newspapers in your country) too much... > I call bullshit on this. The title is not a verdict. A cease&desist is an attack, period. I did not speculate on reasons, I did not even judge it. Just stating facts. Later I said "there is no apparent reason I can see apart from revenge", and that stands until there is some actual reply from them. > dude_PL wrote: > 5. Ignorance + fear = hatred. Think about this next time before you post (this is to all the hate speech folks). The truth is that we know shit about what's really going on, because it's a "secret", until it becomes convenient not to make it a secret anymore. I'm not posting because I praise what PCK does, I'm posting because I don't like the direction the VEKN is going. At all. > If you don´t like it, why did you not offer to participate and change for your direction of thinking? Complaining is easy, doing is hard. > dude_PL wrote: > 6. Finally, my favourite part - banning people from the VEKN and the tournaments. Really? I mean seriously - do you really want to go there? Let's think about this for a moment, shall we? > What is your authority to ban anyone? On what basis? Who gave you the right to forbid people playing the game they love and have been playing for more than 10 years? How are you planning to execute that? Penalize those guys who allowed the banned people to attend the tournament? Any other bright ideas? > I call bullshit again. Nobody from the VEKN suggested this. Some players suggested this, I do not second this notion at all. Not ever did any VEKN official suggest anything close to it. > dude_PL wrote: > I don't give a flying fuck if you like me, agree with me and what not. All I care about is the future of the game I've devoted 16 years of my life to. The fact that group A can't talk with group B is not my problem. Therefore, I want you to stay the fuck away with your drama. Keep it to yourselves and while you're at it - do your job. > > This game will not die because of PCK or VEKN. This game dies when the community dies. Sadly, I have the impression that this will be the only "success" we will see in the near future. > If you care about a community you should give consideration if people like you and agree with you. I would say that without a general default setting of liking each other and agreeing on a minimum number of points a community can not exist. I state again: apart from removing them from the Design Team after it went dysfunctional we did no action that might seem hostile towards them. Yet, they continue to do them towards us. Looks pretty one-sided to me.

> dude_PL wrote: > 3. I strongly believe that nobody will sue anybody over anything. This is a fan organization in conflict with other fans developing a fan set, no lawyer with the right mind would give a fuck. > That's the part which is laughably funny, for two reason. First, PCK do have started legal struggle. Saying they won't do any legal action is already false. Second, if PCK do hire someone to sue VEKN, they can win - which will definitely destroy VEKN. And consequently, destroy for a long time any hope of VtES revival. It's not all that expensive : I could do it with a base IT job. It's not all that unlikely : trials are not reserved for "important" matter anyway. Third, Jeff Kuta have already expressed he don't want Johannes to be behind the VtES possible revival. Which is a respectable opinion by itself, less so when some week after that they start legal actions to show they are willing to take the decision to refuse this refusal instead of the community. > dude_PL wrote: > 5. Ignorance + fear = hatred. Think about this next time before you post (this is to all the hate speech folks). The truth is that we know shit about what's really going on, because it's a "secret", until it becomes convenient not to make it a secret anymore. I'm not posting because I praise what PCK does, I'm posting because I don't like the direction the VEKN is going. At all. > So, it is bad when VEKN do it, and it is good when PCK do it. Because it is not like they have been all that open on what they were doing legal wise, nor that they have been that explicit on what happened to lead to this mess. From a cool head view, PCK have blackmail element to influence decisions in VEKN now, like adding their set to Dance Macabre or anything like that. And quite conveniently they have not tried to disprove that. Both have done things I don't like. But PCK have started the scorched earth policy.

@Ohlmann Jeff stated that it is a potential conflict of interests when someone is a Chairman of the VEKN and represents the publisher at the same time. Please point me to his statement that confirms what you wrote. As for the legal stuff - I guess we'll have to wait and see then. Also, please point me to the statement where I said that it's bad when the VEKN is secretive and good when PCK is. @Johannes 1. Perhaps. I reserved for myself the right for being wrong, I'm going to stand by this. As I said, I don't know the inside story in details. What I do know though is that the hate campaign doesn't help anyone. 2. Call bullshit on whatever you want, it is a statement that implies a verdict in my eyes. The fact that you guys don't like each other is your problem. The fact that you decided to drag the community in it isn't. As Extrala mentioned before, this letter shouldn't even be posted. This whole discussion shouldn't even be here in the first place. 3. An expected answer indeed. I didn't participate because at the time you announced "recruitment" for VEKN I was in the process of starting my new job and I simply didn't have the time for that (it would be extremely hard to combine the responsibilities and the VEKN doesn't need people who say they will do things and don't do them). However, I'd be happy to discuss any form of participation at any time, please contact me in private if you are interested. 4. I know that nobody from the VEKN suggested banning people - some VEKN members did. This part of my post was aimed at those members. Even more - I don't think you or anyone from the IC would ever suggest that, since it would be a death verdict for the community and the organization. I don't suspect you of being suicidal. 5. My wording was unfortunate indeed. The truth is however - I'm not being politically correct here and I will never aim for following the crowd. I believe that opposition and criticism is neccessary in every organization and it can strengthen it in the end. What I mean is that I have close to none influence on the fact if people like me for what I say or not, because I'm saying things that are...let's just say "not popular" here. But I will say them anyway. This was not aimed at insulting the community - this was aimed at people who have nothing to say except insulting others. ps. I have to leave soon to catch the train, otherwise I'll miss out on tomorrow's NC - just in case you're wondering why I went silent

> dude_PL wrote: > @Ohlmann > Jeff stated that it is a potential conflict of interests when someone is a Chairman of the VEKN and represents the publisher at the same time. Please point me to his statement that confirms what you wrote. > You have paraphrased it. It's a more precise way to say "He don't want Johannes to be behind the VtES revival". I don't tried to say that PCK want to be behind it instead, or that they don't want VtES to be revived, just that they don't want Johannes to be behind that. I even noted that the opinion was not stupid by itself (more because everybody is allowed to its opinion than everything else). It's just that PCK is not supposed to decide alone whether this opportunity should be taken or not, and he is not supposed to try to destroy VEKN to avoid tjat.

> dude_PL wrote: > @Ohlmann > Jeff stated that it is a potential conflict of interests when someone is a Chairman of the VEKN and represents the publisher at the same time. Please point me to his statement that confirms what you wrote. > Steve Wieck was VEKN Chairman some years ago, and at that time he was President (or something similar) of White-Wolf. If at that time that wasn't a problem why would be a problem now?

Oh for the love of vitae already. Mira, una buena solución. > extrala wrote: > My advice: > 1. Make sure Danse Macbre does not contain any card (card ideas) from the PCK-made set. > 2. Move on. > Muévanse ya, carajo. None of these pissing matches is going to change me from playing with any of you. Grow up already, it's just a game. Take their stuff out and move on. I don't need to be privy to your private message arguments.

> dude_PL wrote: > The fact that you decided to drag the community in it isn't. As Extrala mentioned before, this letter shouldn't even be posted. This whole discussion shouldn't even be here in the first place. > The problem is that I just speculate they will take it public at some point, because that has been their repetitive pattern of behaviour. I can then react to that and look bad because people will think the VEKN was trying to hide something. But I prefer to learn from past mistakes and make it clear from the beginning what is happening.

> dude_PL wrote: > 5. My wording was unfortunate indeed. The truth is however - I'm not being politically correct here and I will never aim for following the crowd. I believe that opposition and criticism is neccessary in every organization and it can strengthen it in the end. What I mean is that I have close to none influence on the fact if people like me for what I say or not, because I'm saying things that are...let's just say "not popular" here. > You say you're a free thinker but this sounds like pure contrarianism for the sake of being contrary. I don't know you personally so forgive me for judging a book by it's covers but this just comes off as a cheap way to put yourself on a pedestal.

Not interested in being on any pedestal here or anywhere else Sorry to disappoint you

> dude_PL wrote: > You really have to face the fact that you have close to no authority outside of this forum and the majority of the global playerbase doesn't even come here. They simply don't care - all they want is to play the game they love, with their friends, for as long as it is still possible. So I wouldn't really go into the legitimacy and authority talks if I were you. Additionally, as it was mentioned in this topic, this forum is getting so bad (mostly because of constant battles and petty games that help absolutely noone) that people are reluctant to recommend it to other players in their playgroups. Think about that during your next power struggle. > First of all I think opposite: MANY PLAYERS come here but they don't want to be involve in any part of this conflict because...friendship? loyalty? whatever? Second: I understand You (or trying ) Dude (my friend ) but You cant say that the Vekn has no authority...why??? Now, when VtES is officially DEAD we need someone/something to take the legacy of OUR game and put so much effort to bring them back. I don't claim that the Vekn has rights to do everything, but Vekn has rights to do everything what is possible to bring the game back. And I will personally put all my efforts to this. You know that on the beginning this silly conflict I told You that not everything is clear to me and right in this case but now, I see that the case is not about the cards, release, design,greater good or something. now it's personal, and its no good to game, to us, and simply its not fair. I think that Jeff forgot that he is not the centre of the World of VtES and sadly he want to tore us apart with no reason at all. Maybe not everything was right or good in the past between the PCK and VeKN during the start of that conflict(name it as You wish: Johannes, Ben, Design Team, Ego, whatever) but now it's only a personal issue, nothing more. And we have to find solution to put the bad things aside and start everything over. Ofc for some Players, it's fun to watch like we fight against each other, but WE ARE example, we the Princes, NC and all volunteers...please, don't forget about this.

May I suggest we close this thread, archive it somewhere out of plain sight for any interested party to view and then just do what Ralf said? Ie, Forget about it and move on? Ya know, like we did after the first drama phase?

amen

> Ashur wrote: > Dear PCK - three questions: > > 1. What _exactly_ are you trying to accomplish with this? > I have asked Jeff Kuta this question twice and he refuses to answer. Why is that, do you think? Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> dude_PL wrote: > 5The truth is that we know shit about what's really going on, because it's a "secret", until it becomes convenient not to make it a secret anymore. > Everything that I have stated has been in response to all public material. I'm not part of the Design Team nor of VEKN. I know plenty because I've been involved in many public discussions regarding the PCK issue and I pay attention to the layered behavior of the persons involved. One could say mistakes were made on both sides but one could NOT say that both sides have been rotten lying bastards. Only one side fits that definition. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> Daidalos wrote: > Of course the PCK have the best intentions. Of course there's nothing to worry about. Or not? We could really use some reaction from you guys (PCK). Tell us what you want to do. Or does it mean so little to you? Tell us and stop the speculations. > Many people have asked what we want. I think we have been very clear about this throughout. In April we asked that the V:EKN not use our cards. In early September, we published our set, Guardians of the Faith, under Creative Commons. Shortly thereafter, Johannes posted several instances where a reasonable person could infer that our original request was not being heeded. Furthermore, Johannes posted that he, personally, was in negotiations to sell print-on-demand V:TES cards--possibly including ours, inferred by his comments--for profit. Therefore, we needed to make a more official statement to the V:EKN. A cease and desist letter is *not* an attack. It is an official document that is needed to protect intellectual property from being infringed upon. The last few lines of the letter state what we want and are not ambiguous. The V:TES community can judge the wisdom of posting such a document publicly by either party. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

We readily acknowledge that Hasbro (formerly Wizards of the Coast) and CCP (formerly White Wolf) have relevant copyrights. We are not trying to claim any of their intellectual property. We stated this in the Guardians of the Faith set release announcement. Our focus is on our creative interpretation of the source material. The V:EKN is also free to come up with their own creative interpretation of the source material as well. The issue is whether theirs just happens to be substantially similar to ours. Back in April, we asked the V:EKN to not use any of our cards without our explicit permission. They never asked for our permission. We did not grant explicit permission other than the six storyline cards. Here's a simple question for the V:EKN now: Johannes, from April 2012 to September 2012, did the V:EKN use any of our "original ideas" without our explicit permission? If the answer to the above question is “No,” then the whole situation is moot. We're only concerned with our work, so if you haven't been using our work, then there's no conflict. However, your September statement referred to some "minor things" that needed to be corrected. There were also several public posts about Guardians of the Faith by playtesters which alluded to numerous similarities to the V:EKN set. We have been quite transparent about the contents of our set, making it available to V:EKN affiliates and some members of the V:EKN Inner Circle. The V:EKN, understandably, has been much more opaque about their set. As a result, we don't know exactly what they've been playtesting or what they plan to publish. If the answer to the above question is “Yes,” then the V:EKN has been using our "original ideas" even after we asked them not to. As such, I think it would be logical for us to be wary about further assurances from the V:EKN, especially given the information asymmetry. As others have noted, if the V:EKN was not using our work then our cease and desist letter is irrelevant. It would be a complete non-issue. So the fact that Johannes has made it such a big deal appears to legitimize our concerns about whether the V:EKN has been or is still using our work. We have repeatedly tried to communicate with the V:EKN and the Inner Circle: - Before Jeff's whistleblower post in February, there were multiple attempts to communicate with Johannes but he was repeatedly non-responsive. - Before Carl and Eric's resignation in April, there were multiple attempts to communicate with Johannes but he was repeatedly non-responsive. - Since April we tried other avenues of communication to no avail. Not once did the V:EKN try to initiate a conversation with us during this period to talk about the possible use of our cards. - In August, we offered the V:EKN the opportunity to sanction our set. About a month later, we still have not received an official response. Throughout our numerous attempts to communicate with Johannes and the Inner Circle, the two most common results have been either no response at all or a knee-jerk reaction, sometimes in public, sometimes in private. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Jeff wrote: > In April we asked that the V:EKN not use our cards. In early September, we published our set, Guardians of the Faith, under Creative Commons. Shortly > thereafter, Johannes posted several instances where a reasonable person could infer that our original request was not being heeded. > Maybe you live in a parallel universum very similar but slightly different to ours. Because in reality I said we will not use any of your original ideas. Original ideas make up intellectual property. So no need to protect IP that I explicitly said we are not going to use. Even if you suspected anything different you could have very well waited until it was clear what the final set is going to look like. While we are at the subject, did you ask for permission to use IP from other people? The cards you published (remember: we did not publish anything) contain IP which was created by Pascal, Ben and others. Did we ever even raise the subject before? No, because we are not interested in continuing this harmful and useless conflict. I suggest you start being reasonable.

> johannes wrote: > > > Jeff wrote: > > In April we asked that the V:EKN not use our cards. In early September, we published our set, Guardians of the Faith, under Creative Commons. Shortly > > thereafter, Johannes posted several instances where a reasonable person could infer that our original request was not being heeded. > > > Maybe you live in a parallel universum very similar but slightly different to ours. Because in reality I said we will not use any of your original ideas. Original ideas make up intellectual property. So no need to protect IP that I explicitly said we are not going to use. > Johannes, from April 2012 to September 2012, did the V:EKN use any of our "original ideas" without our explicit permission? pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Jeff wrote: > > > Daidalos wrote: > > Of course the PCK have the best intentions. Of course there's nothing to worry about. Or not? We could really use some reaction from you guys (PCK). Tell us what you want to do. Or does it mean so little to you? Tell us and stop the speculations. > > > Many people have asked what we want. I think we have been very clear > about this throughout. > > In April we asked that the V:EKN not use our cards. In early September, we published our set, Guardians of the Faith, under Creative Commons. Shortly > thereafter, Johannes posted several instances where a reasonable person could infer that our original request was not being heeded. Furthermore, Johannes posted that he, personally, was in negotiations to sell print-on-demand V:TES cards--possibly including ours, inferred by his comments--for profit. Therefore, we needed to make a more official statement to the V:EKN. > > A cease and desist letter is *not* an attack. It is an official document that is needed to protect intellectual property from being infringed upon. The last few lines of the letter state what we want and are not ambiguous. > > The V:TES community can judge the wisdom of posting such a document > publicly by either party. > so the entire grounds of your C&D letter are based on what you think is going on? that's what infer means, dude.

> Jeff wrote: > Many people have asked what we want. I think we have been very clear about this throughout. > If you were very clear, then there would not have been many people asking it. There were, therefore you weren't. > Jeff wrote: > In April we asked that the V:EKN not use our cards. In early September, we published our set, Guardians of the Faith, under Creative Commons. Shortly > thereafter, Johannes posted several instances where a reasonable person could infer that our original request was not being heeded. Furthermore, Johannes posted that he, personally, was in negotiations to sell print-on-demand V:TES cards--possibly including ours, inferred by his comments--for profit. Therefore, we needed to make a more official statement to the V:EKN. > > A cease and desist letter is *not* an attack. It is an official document that is needed to protect intellectual property from being infringed upon. The last few lines of the letter state what we want and are not ambiguous. > That is actually untrue. The last few lines state: (i) you have removed the aforementioned infringing items derived from our Work; However there are no 'infringing items' mentioned anywhere in any portion of the letter. There is in fact a link to a post Johannes made stating that VEKN had no interest in any of your ideas, which was later clarified (also linked) to state that not all of the ideas from the design team were your ideas. If you are trying to claim copyright on something that is a derivative from another parties work (whether that party is another member of the design team, white wolf, or other) then you should first check that you have the permission of the originating party. Unless you are trying to do this, then what part of Johannes' posts that you linked to do you take issue with? Or is there non-public information that you're privy to that would lead you to your assertion that your claimed copyright was being threatened? If so, you would do better to itemise how you feel the proposed card(s) are infringing on your copyright instead of making an unsubstantiated claim against the entire Danse Macabre set. > Jeff wrote: > The V:TES community can judge the wisdom of posting such a document publicly by either party. > In the spirit of openness within the VEKN organisation, something that several people were requesting, I think posting such a document is better than hiding it. Clearly it would have been better if it had never been written in the first place, and therefore never posted anywhere.

> echiang wrote: > We have repeatedly tried to communicate with the V:EKN and the Inner Circle: > > - Since April we tried other avenues of communication to no avail. Not once did the V:EKN try to initiate a conversation with us during this period to talk about the possible use of our cards. > > - In August, we offered the V:EKN the opportunity to sanction our set. About a month later, we still have not received an official response. > I would think the first post linked by you in the letter that originated this debacle should provide a pretty clear answer to that if you read it. > > There is no reason to be worried about this, after all it is just a fan card submission .... I can re-assure you the VEKN issued set will not use any original ideas that have been published here > So, it is seen as a fan card submission with as much validity as any other fan card submission. With the additional caveat that the VEKN will explicitly not use any of your original ideas. (I don't know if the design team regularly adapt fan card ideas submitted by others, frankly I hope they do, but regardless of standard practice, they've agreed not to in this case). Now this is only my interpretation of what was said above based on my ability to read and comprehend English, but I think you should accept that they don't have any interest in your cards.

> echiang wrote: > > > johannes wrote: > > > > > Jeff wrote: > > > In April we asked that the V:EKN not use our cards. In early September, we published our set, Guardians of the Faith, under Creative Commons. Shortly > > > thereafter, Johannes posted several instances where a reasonable person could infer that our original request was not being heeded. > > > > > > > > Maybe you live in a parallel universum very similar but slightly different to ours. Because in reality I said we will not use any of your original ideas. Original ideas make up intellectual property. So no need to protect IP that I explicitly said we are not going to use. > > > Johannes, from April 2012 to September 2012, did the V:EKN use any of our "original ideas" without our explicit permission? > What the fuck are you trying to accomplish with your juvenile actions over the past month Look I can bold sentences too!

Well, I think that it is clear that the current problem started with this post: > johannes wrote: > > > echiang wrote: > > We are cautiously optimistic about Johannes’ recent assurances that the V:EKN will not be using our cards for their separate fan expansion. This is what we asked for back in April 2012. Many of the recent controversies could have been avoided if the V:EKN had acknowledged our request at that time. > > > You are giving an incorrect interpretation of what I wrote. I assured everyone that we will not use any of your original ideas. You were asking us not to use any card at all from what had been achieved so far, back in April. But a lot of it is based on original ideas from White Wolf or other people involved in the early process of the design (PCK were by far not the only contributors, and I can back it up with data if needed). > > Here is my post for reference. > > > > johannes wrote: > > I can re-assure you the VEKN issued set will not use any original ideas that have been published here (obviously a vampire name or a discipline spread is not an original idea, it is found in the canon). There are a couple of really minor things we´ll need to correct, but that isn´t much of an issue. > > Perhaps the problem here is that it is unclear what both sides mean. For example, are PCK concerned with the names of their vampires? The discipline spreads? The special abilities? The chosen capacities? Etc. It is also unclear what the VEKN intends to put into their set. I think Johannes' post above could be taken as "we have selected vampires from the same White Wolf sources as you, but no similarity exists." But it could also be taken as "we're using the entirety of your cards (aka - unique special abilities of crypt cards or whole library cards), and there ain't nothing you can do about it!" Certainly the true of the matter lies somewhere in between these two interpretations, but neither side can be certain about the actions or motives of the other. Perhaps an actual conversation (not internet posting - nothing good comes from the internet) between the parties could help settle this by specifying what PCK is looking for, and what the VEKN currently has planned. Is such a proposal out of line? Perhaps a third party could even be present for that conversation to help steer the conversation back to the specifics of what each side is after. Johannes? PKC people? Would you be open to such a conversation? I think that the situations you are looking for may not be so mutually exclusive, and that the compromise may be closer that you realize. Check out my VTES blog: Gaming with BS I also host a google doc which separates the TWDA into clans . That means I track how often clans win, which crypt groups get used, and how many people attend events. You can access all of that info here:

> brettscho wrote: > Perhaps an actual conversation (not internet posting - nothing good comes from the internet) between the parties could help settle this by specifying what PCK is looking for, and what the VEKN currently has planned. Is such a proposal out of line? Perhaps a third party could even be present for that conversation to help steer the conversation back to the specifics of what each side is after. > I suspect a third party would be necessary. Direct conversation hasn't worked in the past, apparently, so there's little reason to hope that it would work now. A mediator would be a good idea. Unfortunately, both parties have, at one time or another, called in the entire community to act as mediators. I don't think this approach has worked for anyone.

> echiang wrote: > Johannes, from April 2012 to September 2012, did the V:EKN use any of our "original ideas" without our explicit permission? > Do you have any public information to confirm that any of your ideas have been stolen? Could a near identical card be created from the same sources which you have used to create your material? How can you claim that these ideas are original if they can be easily derived from the sources of which you claim no copyright? (This would also be similar to the patent test of something being novel when assessed by someone of comparable skills with the current public knowledge). What parts of those cards, which comprise the Guardians of the Faith set, are 'your ideas'? As a playtester (and Squidalot has confirmed this) these cards are not to the standard wanted for VTES. They were given extensive feedback from the playtesters (IIRC Squidalot said 30 pages) and from what I can remember (without doing an extensive card-by-card comparison with the original versions) they are basically unchanged. So if they were to be accepted by the VEKN as a complete set, without any further review, then I am glad they have not accepted these cards. I've added further comment and, from my memory rather than an extensive cross-check, the comments I've given are basically the same. (Of course, I won't be releasing any detailed information about any of that process because of the NDA that has been signed). @Brett I'm assuming that the VEKN would like to have answered those questions above. Without that information, there can be no negotiation. If they claim the "cards" are their ideas, then they are claiming much broader copyright than they realise (or admit). If they claim the "names and discipline spreads" then they are claiming WW/CCP IP. If they are claiming the wording of card texts, then all it requires is the change of one or two words and that new version is not the same and therefore not infringing their copyright. (IIRC it only takes the change of a single musical note in almost any piece of music to constitute a 'new' piece of music which does not infringe against prior copyright.) Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

I agree, third party moderation might well be necessary (although only Johannes and PCK can really answer this), and I agree that “public moderation” has failed, as it was always sure to. I'd also argue that a dialogue like what is needed cannot happen over forum post or email. This needs to be a phone conversation. Use Skype if you must involve the internet. As a community, we have done nothing more than condemn (Rightly? Wrongly?) one side or the other. To no avail, and no effect. Yet these catastrophic failures from the past do not mean the parties involved should abandon communication. The heart of the dilemma seems to have always been a lack of proper communication (What are the duties and powers of the design team leader? What are the duties and powers of a design team member? What happens to card ideas that are born out of these efforts?). These two parties – once friends, now bitter rivals – are where they are because of failures to communicate on both sides. Reconciliation (or some approximation thereof), can only be reached by an open and honest conversation. Hell, if there is no one else, I'll be the moderator! PM me, I'll provide my contact information. @Juggernaut – I'm sure that BOTH sides would like answers to the questions I've posed. Also, I certainly hope that VEKN would be willing to talk even now, for it's the only way this will come to a conclusion that is positive to our community, the game, and the parties involved. Check out my VTES blog: Gaming with BS I also host a google doc which separates the TWDA into clans . That means I track how often clans win, which crypt groups get used, and how many people attend events. You can access all of that info here:

Only three pages in to reading this thread. I think I'll take a break and go watch a few dozen hours of "Glee"... there's less drama involved.

> echiang wrote: > Throughout our numerous attempts to communicate with Johannes and the Inner Circle, the two most common results have been either no response at all or a knee-jerk reaction, sometimes in public, sometimes in private. > That's what happens when communication attempts are made in the form of ultimatums, dictation of terms and threats. V:EKN Website Coordinator

> echiang wrote: > > Johannes, from April 2012 to September 2012, did the V:EKN use any of our "original ideas" without our explicit permission? > Just to clarify, as you already know, Eric, there is no such a thing as "your original ideas" with regards to this set. When did property that had NDA's and contracts signed about it on behalf of the VEKN come to be property of PCK? I shall remind you that it was you (Eric) who put the "Confidential property of V:EKN" text on every single card for the playtest. V:EKN Website Coordinator

> Damnans wrote: > > > echiang wrote: > > I shall remind you that it was you (Eric) who put the "Confidential property of V:EKN" text on every single card for the playtest. > > > Touché! > Finnish Politics!

> echiang wrote: > Johannes, from April 2012 to September 2012, did the V:EKN use any of our "original ideas" without our explicit permission? > Define "use". For sure we didn't publish anything and I don't think any IP is relevant until something gets published . Define the whole set of your "original ideas". List them one by one , I am going to debate them one by one and then I can truthfully answer. For the meantime I am not falling four your trap where you want me to say No and then charge me with some cornercase instance that you have already prepared. What I can say is that in a big token of good effort we are making a huge honest effort to avoid at all costs to use your original ideas. So come any actual publication I am quite confident that there will be none of them present. It certainly took as a long time to identify what is what. You seem to forget that you were not the only ones working from August 2011 to December 2011 on that. You readily claimed original ideas from Ben, Mike, Ira and Pascal (among others) as yours. For everyone thinks I can just let this slide: let's put your name instead of mine on the letter. I simply don't know the relevance of it and I am pretty sure they became so obsessed with the whole issue that they are going to ride it to the end.

> johannes wrote: > You seem to forget that you were not the only ones working from August 2011 to December 2011 on that. You readily claimed original ideas from Ben, Mike, Ira and Pascal (among others) as yours. > And this is what annoys me so much: The fact that Jeff, Eric and Carl pretend that their "work" were based solely on their ideas. That simply isn't true. Even on this forum we talked about so many card ideas coming from many different people. Of course those creative brainstorms influenced the new cards. Take "Taking Out The Cornerstone" as an example. How long players debated in this forum about a card for the Sabbat which could send a ready Vampire to Torpor. Then there come the three guys and write it down and claim it as their idea? That is ridiculous at best. They invent a new title and make a card which gives the titled vampire +1 intercept or +1 stealth? Wow, that really deserves a copyright. Never before in history of VtES I observed such a childish move. It could be amusing to look at those people and their further actions. But sadly it threatens the existence of our beloved game. Baron of Frankfurt

From what little I know of both sets, it seems like the library cards aren't the issue (with one or two possible exceptions). And it's unclear what PKC wants in regards to their crypt cards, and unclear what VEKN wants to do with their Crypt cards. Isn't it worth a half hour conversation to find out these specifics and then let both sides part with the reassurances they desire? Assurances that PKC will halt any interference with Danse Macabre and the Inner Circle, and assurances that VEKN isn't interested in using the cards from Guardians, or will credit the designers for any card they want to use. Isn't that what both sides want? Johannes? PKC? Has ignoring each other or letting the public tear you both apart in these forums worked thus far? Are either of you happy with the results? If not, maybe its time to change tactics. One reasonable conversation among adults might end this hear and now. Check out my VTES blog: Gaming with BS I also host a google doc which separates the TWDA into clans . That means I track how often clans win, which crypt groups get used, and how many people attend events. You can access all of that info here:

@Brett: Johannes has already given public guarantees that the VEKN is taking steps to ensure that anything the VEKN does not believe is the work of VEKN is being removed. PCK has not outlined what they claim to own. PCK has not outlined what will be a satisfactory resolution to the situation. PCK has, AFAIK, issued statements saying that their work must be taken in its entirety without modification (which no doubt has been rejected by VEKN since a number of those cards are basically identical to those that were rejected in playtesting). It seems like one side picking fights, and the other side get flustered over nothing. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Joscha wrote: > Take "Taking Out The Cornerstone" as an example. How long players debated in this forum about a card for the Sabbat which could send a ready Vampire to Torpor. > Carl asked me to search for the thread in which players debated about a political action to send a vampire to torpor. As it took me some time to find it again I thought I could spare others some work . Discussion about Parity Shift equivalent There has been some other interesting card ideas which I think inspired the guys in their work: Another Sabbat vote For Inquisitor-based cards: First idea to do a card for Inquisitors More cards for Inquisitors Of course I don't know for sure if they used those discussions as a basis to work with. But I think creative work is always inspired by things you even don't know exactly. I wouldn't mind at all if they used those suggestions for their expansion. But none of the above mentioned posters demanded the copyright for their ideas. They also shouldn't. Baron of Frankfurt

> Joscha wrote: > > > Joscha wrote: > > Take "Taking Out The Cornerstone" as an example. How long players debated in this forum about a card for the Sabbat which could send a ready Vampire to Torpor. > > > Of course I don't know for sure if they used those discussions as a basis to work with. But I think creative work is always inspired by things you even don't know exactly. I wouldn't mind at all if they used those suggestions for their expansion. But none of the above mentioned posters demanded the copyright for their ideas. They also shouldn't. > I looked through some of the old design team notes and there were contributions made to Taking Out The Cornerstone thread made by Johannes, Pascal, Ira and Ben as well as from the playtesters of the V:EKN set. Yes, the original suggestion was Carl's but it seemed like a full Design Team and V:EKN Community effort behind the creation of the card. Seems hard to nail down the idea of ownership when cards are created in forums and there are 60+ replies contributing to the collaboration. Interestingly, I gave LSJ many hundreds of card submissions over the years and I was happy that he used a great many of them. However, there are plenty of printed cards where I don't even know if they are mine or not since they are based on canon and very similar to what anyone would have created. In those instances I don't know if he created his own card with the same name or if he just made significant changes to my submitted card text. -Robert _________________ Robert Goudie

> johannes wrote: > People were willing to talk. There was simply the problem that after a couple of weeks (nevertheless!) the talks were going in circles because one or the other side wasn´t willing to give in on this or that point. At that point they (one-sided) took the decision to take the discussion public at which point I basically fired them from the design team (long story put short). > Johannes, must I remind you that Carl and I resigned from the Design Team? Our resignation letter was publicly posted on the V:EKN forums: vekn.net/index.php/forum/5-generic-vtes-discussion/28248-stepping-down-from-the-design-team You didn’t fire us from the Design Team. We resigned on our own volition. To restate yet again, we resigned and asked that our cards not be used without our explicit permission. I can’t stress that part enough. To date, you have never been in direct contact with us about using cards we designed. You just let it linger for 5 months and hoped we would, conveniently for you, relinquish our rights. The Inner Circle's avoidance of this outstanding issue, I have to point out, is not a move that is in the best interest of the game. We clearly left open the opportunity to enter into a dialogue. The possibility of reaching an understanding has always been there. > johannes wrote: > I think your assessment is incorrect. Since the whole drama started publicly I have made every communication between them and us that followed public. The only thing that remained private is the hundreds of pages the preceded those events. This is not out of manipulative considerations, this is because of practical reasons (it would take hours to post) and because generally the assumption back then was it was private and I am not going to breach it. > We had several communications with the Inner Circle when we submitted our set for possible sanctioning in August 2012. You have not made those communications public. So no, you have not “made every communication between them and us that followed public.” > johannes wrote: > > > dude_PL wrote: > > The fact that you decided to drag the community in it isn't. As Extrala mentioned before, this letter shouldn't even be posted. This whole discussion shouldn't even be here in the first place. > > > The problem is that I just speculate they will take it public at some point, because that has been their repetitive pattern of behaviour. I can then react to that and look bad because people will think the VEKN was trying to hide something. But I prefer to learn from past mistakes and make it clear from the beginning what is happening. > Johannes, on multiple occasions you have claimed privacy as a reason to keep things secret or taken umbrage when private messages were shared without the original sender’s consent. I personally think that your public posting of the cease and desist letter hurt the V:TES community but other than that, I don’t really mind that you posted it except for the underlying principle. Your excuse for making it public is that you thought that we’d eventually make it public anyway, which doesn’t come across as a particularly justifiable reason. It seems hypocritical for you to claim privacy when it suits you, but to then readily ignore other’s privacy when it is to your benefit. You can’t have it both ways. > johannes wrote: > You seem to forget that you were not the only ones working from August 2011 to December 2011 on that. You readily claimed original ideas from Ben, Mike, Ira and Pascal (among others) as yours. > That is an interesting list of names Johannes. Did you just officially and publicly "out" a member of the Design Team? Is this a lapse of judgment or another case of selective secrecy? pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Damnans wrote: > > > echiang wrote: > > Johannes, from April 2012 to September 2012, did the V:EKN use any of our "original ideas" without our explicit permission? > > > Just to clarify, as you already know, Eric, there is no such a thing as "your original ideas" with regards to this set. When did property that had NDA's and contracts signed about it on behalf of the VEKN come to be property of PCK? > Thank you for the response Gines. Your statement seems to imply that (in your opinion) there were never any of “PCK’s original ideas” and that what we think are PCK’s original ideas have actually belonged to V:EKN the whole time. Thus, “PCK’s original ideas” is an empty, null set {}. We obviously disagree with that assertion. I am curious how this relates to Johannes’ and Robert Goudie’s previous statements: > johannes wrote: > There is no reason to be worried about this, after all it is just a fan card submission, although based on a very early development cycle of an actual VEKN set. The design team has double checked all possible overlaps of card content to avoid any misunderstanding during a possible future publication process. I can re-assure you the VEKN issued set will not use any original ideas that have been published here (obviously a vampire name or a discipline spread is not an original idea, it is found in the canon). There are a couple of really minor things we´ll need to correct, but that isn´t much of an issue. > > Robert wrote: > > > extrala wrote: > > My advice: > > 1. Make sure Danse Macbre does not contain any card (card ideas) from the PCK-made set. > > 2. Move on. > > > I thought that we'd already handled points 1 and 2. > > Even the forum URLs they included in their document are references to us saying we aren't going to use their ideas. Hard to know what concrete actions to take towards the goal when you are already there. > I shall remind you that it was Johannes who first coined the “original ideas” term. But if the V:EKN views “PCK’s original ideas” as an empty set, then saying that you won’t use any of “PCK’s original ideas” is meaningless because there is nothing (in your opinion) to use. Johannes' statement that, "There are a couple of really minor things we´ll need to correct, but that isn´t much of an issue." is in my eyes a clear indication that ideas that are "PCK's original ideas" were also used for the V:EKN set without asking for permission. Johannes and Robert, could you please clarify your statements in light of Gines’ definition of “PCK’s original ideas?” > Damnans wrote: > I shall remind you that it was you (Eric) who put the "Confidential property of V:EKN" text on every single card for the playtest. > That is an interesting argument, yet one which ultimately does not stand. We still maintain that our creative work belongs to us and not the V:EKN. We never signed anything to the contrary, and have never been asked to. If our cards are so “crappy” (as many posters here are convinced) and the V:EKN has no intention of using our “original ideas” (as Johannes has stressed repeatedly), then why does the V:EKN keep making this a big deal as well? Why not just leave us in “the tiny, dark universe of unreality where [we] live,” to quote Kevin Mergen. If there has been no overlap between the PCK Guardians of the Faith set and the V:EKN Danse Macabre set since April 2012, the point is moot. As I see it, the Design Team and Inner Circle let this situation devolve through 5 months of inactivity. What are we supposed to make of Gines’, Johannes’, and Robert's most recent attempts to lay claim over what we consider to be our work? The fact that they are fighting so hard for what many consider insignificant, makes us increasingly wary. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> johannes wrote: > > > echiang wrote: > > Johannes, from April 2012 to September 2012, did the V:EKN use any of our "original ideas" without our explicit permission? > > > Define "use". For sure we didn't publish anything and I don't think any IP is relevant until something gets published . > > Define the whole set of your "original ideas". List them one by one , I am going to debate them one by one and then I can truthfully answer. For the meantime I am not falling four your trap where you want me to say No and then charge me with some cornercase instance that you have already prepared. > > What I can say is that in a big token of good effort we are making a huge honest effort to avoid at all costs to use your original ideas. So come any actual publication I am quite confident that there will be none of them present. It certainly took as a long time to identify what is what. You seem to forget that you were not the only ones working from August 2011 to December 2011 on that. You readily claimed original ideas from Ben, Mike, Ira and Pascal (among others) as yours. > > For everyone thinks I can just let this slide: let's put your name instead of mine on the letter. I simply don't know the relevance of it and I am pretty sure they became so obsessed with the whole issue that they are going to ride it to the end. > This is not an obsession. It is a principled and logical defense of our work, Guardians of the Faith. The only reason I used “original ideas” was because that is the term you have emphasized. In my question I was referring to *your* definition of “original ideas” since you keep using it. Gines’ has provided an interesting perspective on what that means to the V:EKN. Is that also how you define it? There are many ways of "using" other than actual publishing. As just an example, it can be used to bolster’s one credentials by letting others think one has done more work than what one has actually done. It can be used to delay and buy time until replacement ideas can be come up with. Any playtester can look at the Round 2 cards, take away the Guardians of the Faith cards, and see what the rest of the V:EKN Design Team had done. In any case, now that Gines’ is claiming the cards belong to V:EKN and you and Robert are saying that many of the original ideas come from Ben, Mike, Ira and Pascal (we reject all those assertions), maybe you should list in detail, one by one, what you are claiming. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

To PCK: Which cards have came from your ideas and do you have a way to prove that? But then again, the original ideas came from the source material so your claim is moot. I think you should just stop harassing VEKN and let us play the game. The community doesnt´t know everything behind the scenes and never will. Just continue with your own future designs and let the VEKN do the same. Perhaps you will sometime make a set or few cards that will be published. I hope the best of luck for that. Please lets stop this madness that floods the forums.

> echiang wrote: > > > Damnans wrote: > > > > > echiang wrote: > > > Johannes, from April 2012 to September 2012, did the V:EKN use any of our "original ideas" without our explicit permission? > > > > > > > > Just to clarify, as you already know, Eric, there is no such a thing as "your original ideas" with regards to this set. When did property that had NDA's and contracts signed about it on behalf of the VEKN come to be property of PCK? > > > Thank you for the response Gines. > > Your statement seems to imply that (in your opinion) there were never any of “PCK’s original ideas” and that what we think are PCK’s original ideas have actually belonged to V:EKN the whole time. Thus, “PCK’s original ideas” is an empty, null set {}. We obviously disagree with that assertion. > > I am curious how this relates to Johannes’ and Robert Goudie’s previous statements: > My statement is not incompatible to Johannes' and Robert's previous ones. But, since we do not know which ideas you claim to be yours, this point is moot. Could you please list your original ideas or your copyrighted material? > echiang wrote: > I shall remind you that it was Johannes who first coined the “original ideas” term. But if the V:EKN views “PCK’s original ideas” as an empty set, then saying that you won’t use any of “PCK’s original ideas” is meaningless because there is nothing (in your opinion) to use. > > Johannes' statement that, "There are a couple of really minor things we´ll need to correct, but that isn´t much of an issue." is in my eyes a clear indication that ideas that are "PCK's original ideas" were also used for the V:EKN set without asking for permission. > Again. Which are your original ideas that the V:EKN can't use? > echiang wrote: > > > Damnans wrote: > > I shall remind you that it was you (Eric) who put the "Confidential property of V:EKN" text on every single card for the playtest. > > > That is an interesting argument, yet one which ultimately does not stand. We still maintain that our creative work belongs to us and not the V:EKN. We never signed anything to the contrary, and have never been asked to. > I am afraid my argument stands, because it proves that you (Eric) considered the V:EKN set (designed by the Design Team) to be confidential property of the V:EKN. Not having signed anything is irrelevant. > echiang wrote: > If our cards are so “crappy” (as many posters here are convinced) and the V:EKN has no intention of using our “original ideas” (as Johannes has stressed repeatedly), then why does the V:EKN keep making this a big deal as well? Why not just leave us in “the tiny, dark universe of unreality where [we] live,” to quote Kevin Mergen. > > If there has been no overlap between the PCK Guardians of the Faith set and the V:EKN Danse Macabre set since April 2012, the point is moot. As I see it, the Design Team and Inner Circle let this situation devolve through 5 months of inactivity. What are we supposed to make of Gines’, Johannes’, and Robert's most recent attempts to lay claim over what we consider to be our work? The fact that they are fighting so hard for what many consider insignificant, makes us increasingly wary. > You are denying that you got help from other people to design those cards. But as long as you do not list which ideas you consider to be yours, we won't be able to end this conflict. V:EKN Website Coordinator

> echiang wrote: > In any case, now that Gines’ is claiming the cards belong to V:EKN and you and Robert are saying that many of the original ideas come from Ben, Mike, Ira and Pascal (we reject all those assertions), maybe you should list in detail, one by one, what you are claiming. > You also claimed that the cards belonged to V:EKN. Do not forget about that. V:EKN Website Coordinator

> echiang wrote: > In any case, now that Gines’ is claiming the cards belong to V:EKN and you and Robert are saying that many of the original ideas come from Ben, Mike, Ira and Pascal (we reject all those assertions), maybe you should list in detail, one by one, what you are claiming. > If my comments were not clear then I apologize. They seem clear to me. I properly credited Carl with the original idea for Taking out the Cornerstone and then I mentioned that there were many participants in the design thread for that card (and 60+ posts). That is not the same as saying "the original ideas came from Ben, Mike, Ira and Pascal". At no time have i ever made a statement that "lays claim over your work". I believe you've completely misunderstood the reason behind the vekn's silence on your set. It is NOT for the purposes of waiting you out so that you'll give up your rights (whatever those may be). You would think that we should be able to work things out quite easily since we have a common goal: You don't want us to use your ideas and we don't want to use your ideas. So what's to fight about? However, I can't keep you from reading into my comments and I can't keep you from reading into the vekn's silence. A case of damned if I you do and damned if you don't apparently. I've tried to post things to add light to the discussion but it appears that I've inadvertently fallen into the trap of just adding more noise. I've tried to publicly reassure you but you are somehow you are "increasingly wary". I won't be posting more to this thread as it doesn't appear to be helping any. My apologies for the noise. _________________ Robert Goudie

What saddens me the most is that the game is probably dying, and there are still people tearing the corpse apart. The claim of PCK is so childish and stupid I lost all sympathies for them. Good work gentlemen! Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Mother of god, may the one above have mercy with your soul. Its clear for me now Eric, after reading your post, you are absolutely bonkers. Maybe you should consider therapist consultation. - Prince of Karlsruhe, Germany

I think that one of the main parts of confusion here is what exactly are "original ideas" when it comes to card designs and that is something that PCK has yet to clarify even though they claimed copyright over their cards. Please, which parts of the design do you claim copyright over? Essentially, you don't want VEKN to use your designs but what does that mean? Do the names of the vampires fall under your copyright? Do their special abilities? If a vampire with a name from the canon has a sorta generic ability like +1 Bleed, do you wish to protect that part of design? What about discipline spreads? And if you do wish to protect them, how much should they change to not be in violation of your copyright?

Well, I was a bit on the middle ground regarding this matter. I thought that the whole copyright stuff was just a rant by PCK and not really an issue. Most of the cards where not that great, and really I was counting on them to be added to a "the fan base pool of cards for later use"... like the suggestions that lie on the other thread. I have posted some card ideas myself, and my ideas are free to be used by the community, to be reaped, changed or discarded. But now PCK decided to add insult to injury, and my position shifted. At this point PCK is not making some personal attack, but making a really bad move against the whole community. IMHO just kick them out of the forum, ignore the cards made by them, and move on. By the way, just google this guy to see what this kind of persons can do to the community: "Dino M. Zaffina"

What for holy fuck is this crap? I expect tantrums like this from my 1.5yr old daughter. From supposedly adult people, it's pathetic. "A cease and desist is not an attack"... please. When you bring in the lawyers, you have declared war. And, once you do that, you are expected to outline specific claims, not vague handwaving about stuff you supposedly own (disputed by pretty much everyone else). Will we get specific claims? I doubt it, since these guys seem a bit confused on the issue as well. They just want to harass the VEKN, since their feelings were hurt. As this point, it seems clear to me that Eric is both a douchebag and maybe also a cuckoo or two short of a full clock. Any sympathies I may have had vanished along with his earlier bitching on these forums months and months ago, this latest dick move just reinforces what we knew. So ego is more important than the future of the game, or cash (in lawyer fees)? For some people, yes. The sad thing about all this is that their card designs were mostly total crap, by all accounts. There's a reason they were dumped by the playtesters. After putting a lot of personal effort into keeping the game alive, it disgusts me to see these jokers pull off crap like this, especially on such flimsy premises. We really don't need this.

ADMIN MODE ON Please avoid any personal attack, especially insults. I know the debate is hot, it's not a reason not to act like gentlemen. Thanks. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Fair enough. Well, at this point, at least the lawyers will force Eric and the gang to finally either get specific with their claims, or shut up and go away.

I started playing VTES almost a year ago, it's one of the most atmospheric games that I've ever played and I'm looking forward to new set by VEKN. However, I'm very disappointed by this "inner cirle war." I think the main reason of that is that both sides really care about the game to that end that it's being totally contra-productive. By this speed I think it will take another year to finish the expansion (with only 36 cards). I suggest to take a look at Star Trek Continuing Committee dedicated to Star Trek CCG. It seems that they have a plenty of experience in releasing the fan-made expansions. The link is: www.trekcc.org/ Maybe it'll be good idea to involve someone "outside" the community to take a fresh look on the game. I also suggest to prepade pdf with all the staple cards for beginning players to download and print. Maybe full starters of cards in Pdf.

> PetriWessman wrote: > The sad thing about all this is that their card designs were mostly total crap, by all accounts. There's a reason they were dumped by the playtesters. > I like Taking Out the Cornerstone and Mustering the Forces and was sad that we couldn't keep the two cards for playtesting because of that stupid struggle. *sigh* Baron of Frankfurt

> Joscha wrote: > I like Taking Out the Cornerstone and Mustering the Forces and was sad that we couldn't keep the two cards for playtesting because of that stupid struggle. *sigh* > The thing that make me truly sigh is the fact that, despite this, PCK still act like the VEKN didn't do anything.

> echiang wrote: > If our cards are so “crappy” (as many posters here are convinced) and the V:EKN has no intention of using our “original ideas” (as Johannes has stressed repeatedly), then why does the V:EKN keep making this a big deal as well? Why not just leave us in “the tiny, dark universe of unreality where [we] live,” to quote Kevin Mergen. > > If there has been no overlap between the PCK Guardians of the Faith set and the V:EKN Danse Macabre set since April 2012, the point is moot. As I see it, the Design Team and Inner Circle let this situation devolve through 5 months of inactivity. What are we supposed to make of Gines’, Johannes’, and Robert's most recent attempts to lay claim over what we consider to be our work? The fact that they are fighting so hard for what many consider insignificant, makes us increasingly wary. > So just to confirm a few facts here... 1) PCK sent a Cease and Desist Letter without evidence of any breach of their copyright? (Since your last paragraph here does begin with "If...") 2) Why does PCK think they will be left alone when they send things like Cease and Desist letters to the VEKN? 3) Why does PCK not listen to the criticism provided by the community? 4) Why have you not yet outlined what IS your original ideas? If they are your's then you should be able to conclusively provide a non-null set which the VEKN could use to compare to their cards and ensure that there is no possible overlap with your non-null set of ideas. 5) Would PCK send Cease and Desist letters to any individual who has created cards with similar names or themes to those created by PCK? Should I lawyer-up now in fear of a C&D being sent to me from the US to arrive at 2am local time? Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > 1) PCK sent a Cease and Desist Letter > question: why did PCK send the C&D and not their attorney? Better question: why is PCK discussing their case in a public forum like this?

> self wrote: > question: why did PCK send the C&D and not their attorney? > I am not a lawyer, but as far as I know it is a necessary first step for legal action. And/or an intimidatio ntry > self wrote: > Better question: why is PCK discussing their case in a public forum like this? > Because Johannes showed the C&D to all the VEKN, leading to PCK trying to justify themselves. The even better question is why they sent the C&D without waiting to see the Dance macabre set (to have precise accusation to give) and why they did not try a public warning first.

Wow. Thirteen pages already. Problem not solved yet. Should we, the players, unite and write a letter to the Philatsch band to tell them to stop asking for attention -or would it be giving them too much attention already. Feeling puzzled. Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

IMO, this is much ado about nothing. PCK has to: 1) Have created non-derivative content, not described in print and/or already protected by copyright/patent held by other entities. Since so many cards are based on existing WoD canon, the subset for point #1 is small. 2) Have not received constructive design input from any second party who might also therefore have ownership rights, and not have duplicated or derived functions from cards proposed on this board to which others might have as much copyright claim as they do. 3) Have not relinquished rights by voluntarily issuing playtest files which included "Confidential Property of VEKN." This seems a high hurdle in my mind, especially if VEKN can produce documentation showing an internal design team approval of the PDF including this language. 4) Be able to specifically demonstrate that a card from Danse Macabre is derivative from some original content to which they could actually claim right. Since VEKN has already stated they will excise that small fraction of cards that don't have directly attributable WoD canon references and.or can be traced to other developers, this should eliminate any problems. 5) Have a standing copyright application in the public domain to initiate legal action. I could find nothing in the public record suggesting an application exists and it seems a huge mistake to even apply for US copyright. The huge amount of derivative content could open PCK to legal action from existing copyright holders, making the attempt backfire horribly. 6) Have funds available to pursue litigation against VEKN, risking countersuit for recovery of the defendant's legal costs. Even if all the stars for Points #1-#5 align, the gut-check associated with Point #6 is a likely roadblock. Here is where I put my money where my mouth is. If a legal suit does result, I am willing to provide funds for legal consultation to support VEKN's defense (assuming that a personal review of available records for a defense case meets a minimum standard). I might even sell my extensive collection of VTES original art with all proceeds funding VEKN defense. The irony of Eric buying art to fund the opposition's defense would not be lost on me Darby.

> Reyda wrote: > Wow. Thirteen pages already. Problem not solved yet. > Should we, the players, unite and write a letter to the Philatsch band to tell them to stop asking for attention -or would it be giving them too much attention already. > Feeling puzzled. > Reyda is out of words? Gehenna is upon us, indeed.

> TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote: > IMO, this is much ado about nothing. > > [post of awesomeness] > I salute you, sir.

While I hardly ever feel enticed to contribute to this forum (or any forum), I do have some strong feelings on the subject at hand: first of, as has been said before, this is why we can't have nice things. A couple of enthousiastic volunteers try to keep a nice and entertaining game alive and even get to the point where they find the spirit to try and create a new set. Unfortunately, while some diasgreement and some struggle in any project or design team run with and by volunteers is to be expected, this sure escalated quickly. Threatening to bring charges on alleged copyright infringement (which is highly questionable to begin with, given that amongst others virtually all non-graphic related part of the card is not theirs to be patented in the first place) is no laughing matter (though I did laugh when I read the email). Regardless, it may be worthwhile to briefly check in with a lawyer (hell, possibly contact the holders of the copyrighted items first (wizards, White Wolf?) to see if they'd lend you their lawyers. Lawyers like a good laugh as well) and see if you can get a declaratory judgment in your court of choice (that helps a lot, it's like a pre-emptive strike). Or have the wizards lawyers (ow wow, being called a wizard lawyer would rock) just file a counterclaim for the potential copyright infringment they would suffer when PKC would bring out their set. Unless ofcourse PKC withdraws it's cease and desist demand and you just arrange some sort of deal whereby you (vekn) show your final cards to PKC prior to release for 'final vetting', give them some sort of recognition that they added creatively to this new set and that allows their feelings to be less hurt. Which would be way more boring than a public law suit.

So what i am really tring to say, never ever leave a legal threat (including its accusations) out in the open without formally responding to each and every accusation. Judges may actually interpret such behavior as if you admit being guilty to these 'charges'. So, at least respond to them in a formal way. Preferably in a legal-like manner

> zwubu wrote: > So what i am really tring to say, never ever leave a legal threat (including its accusations) out in the open without formally responding to each and every accusation. > I agree with your sentiments, but I would say never ever deal with legal issues based on advice from people who are not lawyers. VtES store : www.prunesquallor.net Card supplies & games : stores.ebay.com/Prunesquallors-Secret-Cache

Prunesquallor, Are you talking about incredibly accurate advices like this one ? > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > If they are claiming the wording of card texts, then all it requires is the change of one or two words and that new version is not the same and therefore not infringing their copyright. (IIRC it only takes the change of a single musical note in almost any piece of music to constitute a 'new' piece of music which does not infringe against prior copyright.) > Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> I might even sell my extensive collection of VTES original art > Dibs on the KRC.

> Reyda wrote: > Prunesquallor, Are you talking about incredibly accurate advices like this one ? > then again, taking seriously any juridic threat tend to be a good attitude for non lawyer There exist a significant number of case where juridic action ended with absurd resultat, because the judge was tricked by the party who took seriously the thing.

> zwubu wrote: > arrange some sort of deal whereby you (vekn) show your final cards to PKC prior to release for 'final vetting' > What? So they can do their own "copyrighted" versions of those same cards and cause even more unnecessary frustration and grievance? Finnish Politics!

I have not followed the drama in detail nor do I want to invest any amount of time trying to figure it out. These things, honestly, are silly and childish, especially since no money is involved. What I would like to know, however, is whether or not there will be a "real" set released, complete with artwork, by what I assume is non-PKC design team. I know several pieces of artwork were featured not too long ago and they were supposedly going to appear in the long-awaited set. Have these plans been scrapped or is 'Guardians of the Faith' all we get? Regarding to the 'Guardian' set, assuming this is all we'll get, I am disappointed. For something that has been talked about for so long, the cards, especially in terms of the crypt, are truly, for the lack of a better term, 'bleh.' Some, in such a small set, are downright useless. But I digress. What is important for me to know is whether or not the community can expect the release of what has been talked about for months now or...

From another thread: > johannes wrote: > Fellow Methuselahs, > > we have great news for the V:TES community. While nothing is guaranteed, we are pursuing some creative solutions that might allow the game to continue. The plan, of course, is to release printed V:TES cards. > > onebookshelf inc. has shown serious interest in putting a deal together that allows for printed publishing of (eventually) all previous and future V:TES cards through a print-on-demand program. You can read further details on the general program on www.drivethrucards.com/. The person behind onebookshelf inc. is Steve Wieck, former owner and president of White Wolf, a long time fan and benefactor of V:TES. I am also involved in the onebookshelf business which allows for close cooperation between the V:EKN and onebookshelf for having future V:EKN sanctioned cards published as well and for direct fan input to the whole process to bring you the best possible package. > > However we need to be very patient, because it will take several months before everything is sorted out, eventually. It is very important for the fan base to not engage any of the licensing parties through e-mails, petitions or social media, it will not help and most likely even hurt the proccess. We are definitely months away from having all the signatures, the legal situation is complex. However all involved parties have shown general interest. > > There is also the very real possibility that no deal can be made and the plan is going to fall through, but we are hoping for the best. > > This also means that the PDF set designed by the V:EKN may not be released in PDF format, because ... it may be a printed set! > > Johannes Walch > Chairman of the V:EKN >

> KoKo wrote: > I have not followed the drama in detail nor do I want to invest any amount of time trying to figure it out. These things, honestly, are silly and childish, especially since no money is involved. What I would like to know, however, is whether or not there will be a "real" set released, complete with artwork, by what I assume is non-PKC design team. I know several pieces of artwork were featured not too long ago and they were supposedly going to appear in the long-awaited set. Have these plans been scrapped or is 'Guardians of the Faith' all we get? > > Regarding to the 'Guardian' set, assuming this is all we'll get, I am disappointed. For something that has been talked about for so long, the cards, especially in terms of the crypt, are truly, for the lack of a better term, 'bleh.' Some, in such a small set, are downright useless. But I digress. What is important for me to know is whether or not the community can expect the release of what has been talked about for months now or... > Yes you will. These distractions are a bit of a hold-up, but we´ll get to it. Check the news entries on the frontage, there is quite a bit of news about the set.

> johannes wrote: > I suggest you start being reasonable. > It has been more than 10 days and the V:EKN Inner Circle has neglected to officially respond to our letter. We thought the V:TES Community should know. Carl, Eric and Jeff When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

Wait what? They're supposed to respond to that joke?

> Jeff wrote: > We thought the V:TES Community should know. > What should we know? Are you going to throw a lawsuit at every member of the community? on an funnier note: I claim copyright on the above sentence, just in case... www.facebook.com/groups/vtes.belgium/

> Jeff wrote: > > > johannes wrote: > > I suggest you start being reasonable. > > > It has been more than 10 days and the V:EKN Inner Circle has neglected to officially respond to our letter. > > We thought the V:TES Community should know. > > Carl, Eric and Jeff > Does that put us at three minutes to midnight? Where do we stand on the VTESageddon clock? When will you stop this nonsense and let the game go on? I just want to play VTES and not have the organization be under threat of lawsuit because you had a falling out with them. It is bad for the game. Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

> Jeff wrote: > > > johannes wrote: > > I suggest you start being reasonable. > > > It has been more than 10 days and the V:EKN Inner Circle has neglected to officially respond to our letter. > > We thought the V:TES Community should know. > > Carl, Eric and Jeff > in other news, Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead! Did you remember to include contact information so that the VEKN could have its attorneys send a response to your attorneys? Or did you use legalzoom.com instead?

After consulting with legal council, we understand that the Cease and Desist sent by former design team members Kuta, Pilhatsch and Chiang does not require a response. That said, we have sent a courtesy reply assuring them that we do not intend to use any of their original material (obviously this does not include original material by other 3rd parties, i.e White Wolf) in our set. We now consider the matter closed. The V:EKN Inner Circle Members