Uses for Jack of Both Sides

Recently I've seen a Black Cat deck and a jennifer hunter deck posted to the site. I've been thinking that Jack of Both Sides seems to offer a similar effect as these two minions offer in their text. For example, if you use this card with baretta you can: 1) pay 1 blood instead of 1 pool 2) take the equip action at +2 stealth (helpful if you are playing a clan with low stealth). Have you found an effective use for this card? Is it not worth the card slot? What are your thoughts? Jack of Both Sides Action cost: 1 blood +2 stealth action. Requires a ready vampire. This vampire equips or employs an equipment or retainer from your hand. The cost of that card is reduced by 1 pool or by up to 2 blood.

Well, it's another moving part in a combat deck. Concealed Weapon is much more easy to play, and still sometimes you don't have it (or you have it but have no weapon). Making it an action is not better. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I think as a combo card it should offer more. To let this card real action play it should offer an untap, additionally to discount and stealth or four stealth and real reduction.

It should at least have One or two more parts. like being able to use it on an ally and untap during your discard phase.

the only thing i find jack of both sides useful, is avoiding the oh so common direct intervention on your ivory bow or your heart of nitzcheatorz. Play this, and let the fun begin Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> Reyda wrote: > the only thing i find jack of both sides useful, is avoiding the oh so common direct intervention on your ivory bow or your heart of nitzcheatorz. > Play this, and let the fun begin > Vast Wealth, Alastor, Magic of the Smith do it so much better

> Non-existant user wrote: > > > Reyda wrote: > > the only thing i find jack of both sides useful, is avoiding the oh so common direct intervention on your ivory bow or your heart of nitzcheatorz. > > Play this, and let the fun begin > > > Vast Wealth, Alastor, Magic of the Smith do it so much better > -vast wealth : you don't get to choose what you equip. the risk is getting an equipment for which you don't have the requirements. -alastor : you have to be justicar or inner circle. 33 crypt cards out of 1670. Talk about narrow possibilities. :/ -magic of the smith : ok, but, you need tha (207 vamps out of 1670). And it's impossible to do it if the equipment is already in your hand. There is still this particular application of avoiding D.I. (and maybe having an additional stealth), that makes jack of both sides playable and interesting in some decks. Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

It's useful when you have action advantage through smaller minions. Unless you're blocking, an action cost is still expended through Concealed or Pack Alpha when you rush or get blocked. Rushing to gear up hasn't been terribly fruitful IME, as you enter battle not optimized (as a lone Beretta would attest). And hoping to be blocked (furious bleeds of 1) suffers the same problem as bruise & bleed. Also taking a retainer/equip action to discard that copy on a block and Conceal/Alpha one out during combat requires two ret/eq copies in hand. I would argue that equipment and retainers in general are not worth the action unless they are a) really good, b) negligible to gear up, or c) refund your action. It explains why .44, Raven, or Ivory Bow is awesome, WWS and Zip is excellent (I'd put Carrion Crows here, personally), and Baseball Bat is solid. As per the "Less is More" topic about extremely minimal errata to weaker cards, you could start each game with a global NRA PAC for all melee weapons and the game would be fine. High tier gear would still dominate, melee would still likely be 3rd or 4th tier combat, but they wouldn't be as much a bother. (I should caveat that, as patron saint of Meat Hooks. The above argument holds unless you care about a long-term grind game with permanents. Permanents do shine in the end game as they save cards for continual combo pressure.)

> Azel wrote: > (I should caveat that, as patron saint of Meat Hooks. The above argument holds unless you care about a long-term grind game with permanents. Permanents do shine in the end game as they save cards for continual combo pressure.) > You're right, but still it is far, far better to equip with a preternatural strength than a meat cleaver for the end game. Equipment tend to be too easy to destroy - mainly because top tier equipment like the Bowl or .44 are too powerful to be left unchecked.

I actually tried to play the Jack, using Lord Ephraim's special. Well, it didn't work at all. Still, take a look and any suggestions are very welcome. (note: the 19 eyes of Argus stand for "the whole reaction cards bundle") Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 1 max: 6 average: 4 4x Lord Ephraim Wainw 6 AUS THA for pre Tremere:5 3x Anarch Convert 1 Caitiff:0 2x Neighbor John 5 AUS dom for !Ventrue:4 1x Antonio d'Erlette 5 THA dom for pot !Tremere:4 1x Andre LeRoux 3 aus Toreador:5 1x Lectora 3 aus tha !Tremere:4 Library [90 cards] Action [18] 2x Anonymous Freight 4x Jack of Both Sides 8x Magic of the Smith 1x Rave 1x Rutor's Hand 2x Zip Line Action Modifier [14] 1x Daring the Dawn 13x Freak Drive Combat [9] 2x Armor of Vitality 2x Aura Reading 1x Skin of Steel 2x Soak 2x Target Vitals Equipment [17] 1x .44 Magnum 1x Aaron's Feeding Razor 1x Ankara Citadel, Turkey, The 1x Bowl of Convergence 1x Codex of the Edenic Groundskeepers 1x Heart of Nizchetus 1x Ivory Bow 1x Kevlar Vest 2x Leather Jacket 1x Light Intensifying Goggles 1x Palatial Estate 1x Sargon Fragment, The 3x Saturday-Night Special 1x Sniper Rifle Master [13] 1x Anarch Troublemaker 6x Ashur Tablets 2x Heidelberg Castle, Germany 1x Jake Washington (Hunter) 1x Pentex(TM) Subversion 2x Wash Reaction [19] 19x Eyes of Argus "I like to think there always are ...possibilities." Spock

Oh man, this deck could really use a Nod or two...

> TorranceCircle wrote: > Recently I've seen a Black Cat deck and a jennifer hunter deck posted to the site. I've been thinking that Jack of Both Sides seems to offer a similar effect as these two minions offer in their text. For example, if you use this card with baretta you can: 1) pay 1 blood instead of 1 pool 2) take the equip action at +2 stealth (helpful if you are playing a clan with low stealth). > I've not found Jack of Both Sides useful for pool-costing equipment. While the extra stealth can be helpful, exchanging 1 blood for 1 pool isn't very exciting, and there are better and more flexible ways of doing that, so the benefit just isn't worth the card space and opportunity cost. On the other hand, I've had decent success with it with retainers or equipment that costs blood. Getting the Ankara Citadel or a Marijava Ghoul for only 1 blood is a much better deal, since it's a genuine cost reduction, and extra stealth seldom hurts, especially when using vampires without access to a strong stealth discipline. -- National Coordinator South Africa

> drnlmza wrote: > I've not found Jack of Both Sides useful for pool-costing equipment.... > > On the other hand, I've had decent success with it with retainers or equipment that costs blood. > I have wanted to use this card because it is one of those cards you end up with too many of. But as others have stated, I always come back to the fact it just isn't good enough to use or to replace something like concealed weapon. Retainers is a good idea. I've never thought of using it with marajava ghouls. I have been thinking I could use it with razor bats, the added stealth may be helpful for gargoyle. But you are again just trading a blood for a pool, which is not a real reduction. Is it? Perhaps i will try Toreador Antitribu with marajava ghouls.

I may try it with ferox non slave gargoyles. they taste enough to want retainers more than blood, and its hard to play razor bats and stone dogs in a deck with such little pool defense and mo bloat.

> Daidalos wrote: > I actually tried to play the Jack, using Lord Ephraim's special. Well, it didn't work at all. > Nice attempt. > Daidalos wrote: > Action [18] > 2x Anonymous Freight > 4x Jack of Both Sides > 8x Magic of the Smith > If you have 8 magic of the smith i don't think the others are necessary. especially if you throw in a couple of Nod masters to move equipment around. > Daidalos wrote: > Master [13] > 1x Anarch Troublemaker > 6x Ashur Tablets > Ashurs are great but why use them in a 90 card deck? Use Nod, maybe guardian angel to add intercept against bleeds and maybe help to use that sniper rifle. > Daidalos wrote: > Reaction [19] > 19x Eyes of Argus > I would diversify, maybe add some bounce, some wakes or other intercept (depending on wether you use Eyes of Argus more frequently as wake or intercept)

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > I may try it with ferox non slave gargoyles. > I was thinking of using Rocia and Cedric as a basis for a crypt. Cedric would enjoy getting bats at 2 stealth then untapping after blocking direct actions. Rocia could do non-slave things.

19x Eyes of Argus[/quote] I would diversify, maybe add some bounce, some wakes or other intercept (depending on wether you use Eyes of Argus more frequently as wake or intercept)[/quote] yes, sure, it was in the original post. the original idea was to play MotS, find another copy, so that I could equip fast and clear my library of the Magics and of the permanents. But the deck kind of "deformed" and I tried exploiting Ephraim's special a bit more. I will try to go back to the original idea again. "I like to think there always are ...possibilities." Spock

> Daidalos wrote: > I will try to go back to the original idea again. > I like the idea. let us know how it works out.

yeah, Concealed Weapon is better for getting weapons. it's practically a free action, which is far more valuable than converting 1 blood into 1 pool. if you just want the extra stealth, Anonymous Freight might be the better card. here's an idea I had: use Jack of Both sides to get around No Repeat Action restrictions, if there's something you want lots of copies of. Hazimel employs Raptor, Freak Drive to untap, then Jack of Both Sides to get a 2nd Raptor in the same turn.

Or use windham, magic of thesmith for Ankara, then next turn magic for flak jacket, freak drive, Jack a flak jacket, freak drive, then hard will one. you can nod them to whoever or just use trap plus combat shotgun with ger. but thatsstill less than optimal.

> TorranceCircle wrote: > Have you found an effective use for this card? > > Is it not worth the card slot? > > What are your thoughts? > > Jack of Both Sides > Action > cost: 1 blood > +2 stealth action. Requires a ready vampire. > This vampire equips or employs an equipment or retainer from your hand. The cost of that card is reduced by 1 pool or by up to 2 blood. > Two quick clarifications: 1) If you use Jack to equip something, does this make it an "equip" action? This is important for NRA PAC, Carmen, Samedi, etc. Similarly, if you use it for a retainer, does that make it a "recruit retainer" action? 2) Do you have to announce what you are using the card for (i.e. "I am playing Jack of Both Sides to equip with an Ivory Bow at 2 stealth. Blocks?"). It seems like a card that might function similarly to Charming Lobby (that is, without it resulting in a vote). Here's Charming Lobby for reference: Charming Lobby Action +1 stealth political action. This vampire calls a referendum listed on a political action card in your hand (play that card) or allowed by an effect in play. If the referendum passes, then the next referendum called by any vampire thereafter passes automatically. As above, and this vampire gains 2 votes in that first referendum. Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

> brandonsantacruz wrote: > 1) If you use Jack to equip something, does this make it an "equip" action? This is important for NRA PAC, Carmen, Samedi, etc. Similarly, if you use it for a retainer, does that make it a "recruit retainer" action? > Yes, it says "equips" and "recruits". > brandonsantacruz wrote: > 2) Do you have to announce what you are using the card for (i.e. "I am playing Jack of Both Sides to equip with an Ivory Bow at 2 stealth. Blocks?"). > Yes, you must announce fully the effect. > brandonsantacruz wrote: > It seems like a card that might function similarly to Charming Lobby (that is, without it resulting in a vote). > > Here's Charming Lobby for reference: > > Charming Lobby > Action > +1 stealth political action. > This vampire calls a referendum listed on a political action card in your hand (play that card) or allowed by an effect in play. If the referendum passes, then the next referendum called by any vampire thereafter passes automatically. > As above, and this vampire gains 2 votes in that first referendum. > I'm not sure of what you're trying to say. Charming Lobby is a political action. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> brandonsantacruz wrote: > > 1) If you use Jack to equip something, does this make it an "equip" action? This is important for NRA PAC, Carmen, Samedi, etc. Similarly, if you use it for a retainer, does that make it a "recruit retainer" action? > Yes it does, it says so on the card itself (This vampire equips or employs an equipment or retainer from your hand) The same is with the cards like Magic of the Smith or Muricia's Call. NRA PAC wouldn't work, for example, if your vamp gets equipment via successful diablerie, but it sure works with cards that make your vamp equip from wherever.

Card Text. "This vampire equips or employs an equipment or retainer from your hand." Further Charming Lobby has card text that makes you play your in-hand vote card, unlike JoBS. Also, sequence of events answers when terms are set. Citation: Re: Questions re: Jack of Both Sides < Prev Next > Posted By: vtesrep Fri Apr 20, 2007 11:02 am | Options floppyzedolfin wrote: > On Apr 20, 2:55 am, Dasein <dasein2...@...> wrote: > Sequence of evenements is : > - Announce wich minion plays which action card. > - Announce the terms of the action card, if any (inferior / superior > level, cards targetted for Sudario Refraction or Jack, ...) > - You tap your minon when doing one of the 2 points above. > - At that moment, any one could call ask for a check that the > equipment / retainer you announced for your Jack is in your 6 card > hand) > - Wait for Direct Intervention. > - Replace the action card. > - Play any "As the action is announced" cards as you want. Correct, except that tapping comes after DI (that is, if the action card is DI'ed, the minion doesn't tap). ... >> For >> example can someone wait until I declare what equipment/retainer card >> is before they decide to Direct Intervention the Jack of Both Sides? > > There's no time window before the terms declaration to play a Direct > Intervention. > >> Does the equipment retainer card stay in my hand or go onto the table >> while block attempts are being made / resolved? > > While the action is not succesful, the equipment / retainer remains in > your hand. As a result of the succesful action, put the equipment / > retainer on the minion. > > By the way, the "announce the target card / wait for direct > intervention / replace card" is the same for Concealed Weapon. Correct.

> Kiddo wrote: > > > brandonsantacruz wrote: > > > > 1) If you use Jack to equip something, does this make it an "equip" action? This is important for NRA PAC, Carmen, Samedi, etc. Similarly, if you use it for a retainer, does that make it a "recruit retainer" action? > > > Yes it does, it says so on the card itself (This vampire equips or employs an equipment or retainer from your hand) > The same is with the cards like Magic of the Smith or Muricia's Call. > > NRA PAC wouldn't work, for example, if your vamp gets equipment via successful diablerie, but it sure works with cards that make your vamp equip from wherever. > From the Google group: LSJ 11/13/00 GymNat1 wrote: > must the vamp using MotS declare what equipment she is searching her library > for? No. The successful action allows you to "go through your library [and] find a piece of equipment..." Google group search confirms the part about announcing what you get from Jack of Both Sides, though. Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

> Ankha wrote: > > > brandonsantacruz wrote: > > 1) If you use Jack to equip something, does this make it an "equip" action? This is important for NRA PAC, Carmen, Samedi, etc. Similarly, if you use it for a retainer, does that make it a "recruit retainer" action? > > > Yes, it says "equips" and "recruits". > > > brandonsantacruz wrote: > > 2) Do you have to announce what you are using the card for (i.e. "I am playing Jack of Both Sides to equip with an Ivory Bow at 2 stealth. Blocks?"). > > > Yes, you must announce fully the effect. > > > brandonsantacruz wrote: > > It seems like a card that might function similarly to Charming Lobby (that is, without it resulting in a vote). > > > > Here's Charming Lobby for reference: > > > > Charming Lobby > > Action > > +1 stealth political action. > > This vampire calls a referendum listed on a political action card in your hand (play that card) or allowed by an effect in play. If the referendum passes, then the next referendum called by any vampire thereafter passes automatically. > > As above, and this vampire gains 2 votes in that first referendum. > > > I'm not sure of what you're trying to say. Charming Lobby is a political action. > Ok, with those questions addressed, I have some ideas about how to use Jack. For decks featuring Majesty and/or Freak Drive, you get two chances to get the equipment/retainer. If the first is blocked/DId, you get a second since the equipment or retainer wasn't actually played. Avoid the "no repeat action" rule regarding equipment and retainers. Want two Berettas for the same guy this turn? Have at it! Want three, use Magic of the Smith. Four? Vast Wealth. Samedi are especially good at this when they use Hag's Wrinkles. Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

Anonymous Freight also works in this combo as well, for what it's worth. Anonymous Freight +3 stealth equip action. Requires a vampire. Equip this vampire with a non-location equipment card from your hand (requirements and cost apply as normal). Guruhi are the Land also works in providing untap, but that'll lead to a Darby Dance and might be beyond your current vision.

I use it in my gun deck - saving pool is vital. I use it in a mix of hidden weapon and vast wealth. My friend has a black cat based deck with jack of both sides - free magnums for all!

> Azel wrote: > Anonymous Freight also works in this combo as well, for what it's worth. > This does work for equipment. Getting retainers at a discount might be a good use for Jack of Both sides as has been stated earlier in the discussion. Here is a list of retainers costing 2 or more blood. Camarilla Vitae Slave Faithful Servant Infernal Familiar Marijava Ghoul Masquer (Wraith) Raptor Redcap Wilder Spiritual Protector