The future of V:TES

Fellow Methuselahs, we have great news for the V:TES community. While nothing is guaranteed, we are pursuing some creative solutions that might allow the game to continue. The plan, of course, is to release printed V:TES cards. onebookshelf inc. has shown serious interest in putting a deal together that allows for printed publishing of (eventually) all previous and future V:TES cards through a print-on-demand program. You can read further details on the general program on www.drivethrucards.com/. The person behind onebookshelf inc. is Steve Wieck, former owner and president of White Wolf, a long time fan and benefactor of V:TES. I am also involved in the onebookshelf business which allows for close cooperation between the V:EKN and onebookshelf for having future V:EKN sanctioned cards published as well and for direct fan input to the whole process to bring you the best possible package. However we need to be very patient, because it will take several months before everything is sorted out, eventually. It is very important for the fan base to not engage any of the licensing parties through e-mails, petitions or social media, it will not help and most likely even hurt the proccess. We are definitely months away from having all the signatures, the legal situation is complex. However all involved parties have shown general interest. There is also the very real possibility that no deal can be made and the plan is going to fall through, but we are hoping for the best. This also means that the PDF set designed by the V:EKN may not be released in PDF format, because ... it may be a printed set! Johannes Walch Chairman of the V:EKN

That is some fantastic news ! *crossing fingers*

Hurrah! That would be superbombastic. Baron of Frankfurt

Awesome. I've been quietly hoping for something like this, since I've been following what White Wolf / Onyx Path have been doing in the print-on-demand arena on the rpg book side. Great news! Here's hoping all the ducks agree to land in a row...

That'd be awesome!! Great news! O.O xD

I think this "I am also involved in the onebookshelf business" represents are gravely wrong conflict of interest with the position of V:EKN Chairman. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

YES! Finnish Politics!

hi all, i'm new here i've played a dozen times vtes and i like it . i am a totally beginner and i began to get many cards when the game ended ... sad ... i don't really played for 2 years .. i have been too busy with Netrunner ... I have just see this post and that's a great new even if it is not secured . i know that people here worked for virtual expansion ? does any of them, or some cards were released since the end of the game ? thx a lot

That's excellent! Just take the time you need. I'm certain the community does not mind waiting a year if there is a good possibility of a long-term solution!

Praying here! Thank you very, very much! "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

> wormhole wrote: > does any of them, or some cards were released since the end of the game ? > No cards have been released since then. V:EKN Website Coordinator

As long as this means ordering boosters and not singles, this truly is wonderful news.

> SLave wrote: > As long as this means ordering boosters and not singles, this truly is wonderful news. > I was actually thinking the opposite but more in a, "as long as the costs will be reasonable, this is good news" but I'm not interested in having to buy any more copies of (insert any common card here). I am curious how the print-on-demand model will work with playing cards to be sure.

> ..."I am also involved in the onebookshelf business" represents are gravely wrong conflict of interest with the position of V:EKN Chairman. > I can see where this is coming from, and while I share some of this concern, I have no real beef with this. Overall I think there are mitigating circumstances. Re-publishing V:TES is a huge legal and business wrangle and having ties between the VEKN and an interested publisher could have been integral in setting this whole thing up. Just like how having the former owner of White Wolf involved in this helped. Re-publishing V:TES is generally favored among the players. I'd say that this step is done in accordance with V:EKN's charter: "Organization ...dedicated to the continued health of V:TES" and "... help V:TES grow in popularity through the embracing of new players as well as through the support of the existing fans". Are we not supposed to seize any reasonable chances of this happening? Johannes did declare his (possible) conflict upfront. I'd like him to expand on what exactly is his role at onebookshelf inc, but this assuages me for now. We've yet to see any bad-faith decisions that come out of it. If we can have a few more folks, more than just Johannes, spearheading this from VEKN's side? edit: All in all, thanks Johannes, for working on this.

Best. News. Ever. (assuming it really happens - fingers crossed!) Emiliano "Sans Terre" - Wandering Player - Prince of Brussels

> ShadowCat wrote: > Johannes did declare his (possible) conflict upfront. I'd like him to expand on what exactly is his role at onebookshelf inc, but this assuages me for now. > Mostly European publisher relations at the moment. Should the V:TES project become reality I would most likely be the product manager at onebookshelf for this.

Here's hoping that this miracle happens in good time sir. Our prayers go out with thee.

this is a really good news. Thanks to anyone involved in this effort to bring VTES on print again > Jeff wrote: > I think this "I am also involved in the onebookshelf business" represents are gravely wrong conflict of interest with the position of V:EKN Chairman. > Johannes is the owner of an online business activity who sell vtes cards from years and this was not perceived as a "conflict of interest" (at least for what I know) so why his relationship with the next vtes printer could change his status from "neutral" to "conflict"? by the way I suggest to split this topic in two: "good news" and "Bum's Rush on Johannes" > johannes wrote: > Fellow Methuselahs, > This also means that the PDF set designed by the V:EKN may not be released in PDF format, because ... it may be a printed set! > since the reprint is not scheduled for some months (if ever) and we need to keep alive the game now why do not release the set to us player, let we play with it and when the reprint will be ready remove the "home made" cards from legal use? this way you can validate the vken card design procedure before print the cards and not after Stefano "Walt" Calzighetti Prince of Pordenone (Italy)

Finally some (still shady) good news. Thumbs up Johannes. Regarding the new set/expansion, I agree with Walt. PDF's cards and when the others are printed the pdf's will loose the legal status. Unless you foresee that the new expansion will be ready in a couple of months. BTW will be a good strategy to re-issue the last core sets like Kot or 3rd to guarantee availability.

> johannes wrote: > It is very important for the fan base to not engage any of the licensing parties through e-mails, petitions or social media > Can I still write a letter to Santa Claus? Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Santa Claus is Malk or Nosferatu?

> wesile wrote: > Regarding the new set/expansion, I agree with Walt. PDF's cards and when the others are printed the pdf's will loose the legal status. Unless you foresee that the new expansion will be ready in a couple of months. > (lose, not loose ? I may be wrong, my english is a bit shaky) I believe that waiting 3-6 additional month for the chance of having them printed directly is worth it, if completely agonizing. I long to know what exactly this foreign-soundind black hand vampire do (private joke destinated to Ankha)

I'd rather not have the PDF released at all before a deal is reached. Better to preserve the excitement for printed cards.

> Cyrus wrote: > I'd rather not have the PDF released at all before a deal is reached. Better to preserve the excitement for printed cards. > And if no deal is reached or if it takes 2 years? I'd rather have the cards in PDF then replace them with "real" cards (with maybe some extra cards). This would mean that any mistake could be corrected in the "real" version (if any). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > And if no deal is reached or if it takes 2 years? > I'd rather have the cards in PDF then replace them with "real" cards (with maybe some extra cards). > This would mean that any mistake could be corrected in the "real" version (if any). > Well, we could possibly wait some months before publishing the PDF. Nobody is in a rush I suppose. We can wait 3 or 6 month and then publish if no deal is here yet. In any case, I suppose Johannes can keep in touch with the aforementionned possible publisher to avoid needless conflict and be sure they won't be mad at us.

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > And if no deal is reached or if it takes 2 years? > > I'd rather have the cards in PDF then replace them with "real" cards (with maybe some extra cards). > > This would mean that any mistake could be corrected in the "real" version (if any). > > > Well, we could possibly wait some months before publishing the PDF. Nobody is in a rush I suppose. We can wait 3 or 6 month and then publish if no deal is here yet. > > In any case, I suppose Johannes can keep in touch with the aforementionned possible publisher to avoid needless conflict and be sure they won't be mad at us. > I gathered that the expansion isn't due before December or something anyways. We'll most likely get some info about the deal by then. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

Even if it isn't released, I think it would build some good momentum to have a number of the cards sneak-previewed over the coming months to the intended release date. Even if the entire set gets sneak-previewed. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

[/quote] since the reprint is not scheduled for some months (if ever) and we need to keep alive the game now why do not release the set to us player, let we play with it and when the reprint will be ready remove the "home made" cards from legal use? this way you can validate the vken card design procedure before print the cards and not after[/quote] this might have a series of problems, like the new "owner" of the legal rights not wanting a set that has been fully exploited in many-a-deck to be sold as a new product. Or the fact that there might be some need for more cards for the set to be comercially viable. I dunno, just throwing possibilities. My point is: you can't NOT take into consideration what the other party might want/think of the new set. And by the way - YAY! paper V:tES!

Well, to everyone who was speculating about the release date and sneak-peaks of the new cards, you might want to read what Ben Peal says in today's Designer's Diary . I don't know if Mr. Peal knows about this news that Johannes posted a couple days back (I would think so) but he refers to the news in the DD as "Latest news about the design of the new V:TES set to be released by the Vampire: Elder Kindred Network in 2012." I would assume that this means that Dance Macabre will be released before year's end, although that might change with whatever agreement VEKN ends up doing for printing the cards. Also, in the final paragraph, about playtesting: "We'll spend some time making final tuning, tweaks, and decisions, as well as giving it a thorough proofread and text templating check. This will be happening as the remaining artwork is completed and submitted. Once that's done, we'll get started with the sneak previews!" This meaning we might see some stuff before the year's end, after all All in all, very good news!

A thought struck me the other day. If the pdf set instead will be a commercially printed set, that would probably affect the makers of the artwork negatively. That is if they did their work for free or at a reduced fee, inn the belief that it was for a non-commercial product. While I know nothing of the dealings between the artists and the design team, this might be something that needs to be looked into?

> Adrenochrome wrote: > A thought struck me the other day. If the pdf set instead will be a commercially printed set, that would probably affect the makers of the artwork negatively. That is if they did their work for free or at a reduced fee, inn the belief that it was for a non-commercial product. While I know nothing of the dealings between the artists and the design team, this might be something that needs to be looked into? > That is already in consideration. Of course a commercial set will mean that artists will get paid something adequate.

> johannes wrote: > [...] > > onebookshelf inc. has shown serious interest in putting a deal together that allows for printed publishing of (eventually) all previous and future V:TES cards through a print-on-demand program. You can read further details on the general program on www.drivethrucards.com/. The person behind onebookshelf inc. is Steve Wieck, former owner and president of White Wolf, a long time fan and benefactor of V:TES. I am also involved in the onebookshelf business which allows for close cooperation between the V:EKN and onebookshelf for having future V:EKN sanctioned cards published as well and for direct fan input to the whole process to bring you the best possible package. > > [...] > I don't know if you can answer the V:tES Community yet, but it is something we've been wondering in the Spanish and French V:tES Community (at least I've exposed my questions in the forums). Will the print-on-demand program be focused on single cards or single card prices or will the old and new material be released in boosters-starters-kits? Maybe both options will be possible?

> Jeff wrote: > I think this "I am also involved in the onebookshelf business" represents are gravely wrong conflict of interest with the position of V:EKN Chairman. > I was pointed to the thread where you announced your community dividing set to the unwashed masses from the #vtes irc channel. The thread was quite funny, lots of people pointing out that A> your cards are mostly rubbish and B> its a massive ego trip and bad Bad BAD for the future of the game, some of them did it with a real flare for writing too.. flare that is mostly lacking in your set I add. Also on that thread was a link to this thread and I nearly fell off my chair when I read your quote above, are you so blinded by hate, ego and god knows what else that your first reaction and post to the good news of possible future printed cards is to MOAN THAT JOHANNES HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT?!?!? Do you even like vtes?

And what exactly do you prove by showing pure undiluted hate for him ? That you can be worse than him ?

Call it a knee jerk reaction. It was very cathartic. Also I think it was a thought that needed expressing.

> Bunter wrote: > Also I think it was a thought that needed expressing. > Exactly like the thing Jeff Kuta expressed. It needed expression ; that it was right or wrong is left to the reader, which is supposed to be an adult.

I don't subscribe to that at all. Some points are valid some are not, it is not down to the user. It is completely ridiculous and clearly not valid to suggest Johannes has anything but good intentions in this situation. It is completely valid and reasonable to point out this fact.

If Johannes gets rich out of VTES and the community gets back its beloved game, I don't care....but I don't think that's the case. He hopefully manages to bring the game out of torpor (he's already distributing these cards, so it's not that a big deal).

> Bunter wrote: > It is completely ridiculous and clearly not valid to suggest Johannes has anything but good intentions in this situation. > It's your opinion. It's exactly as valuable as the Jeff Kuta one. Well, a lot less valuable alone, because you don't even try to justify your position. You should sometime try not to blindly take side but see a bit of the big picture, or even (*gasp*) try to understand Jeff. He have been insulted numerous time by Johannes. He have booted unceremoniously out of the VEKN. He have been spite upon for basically no explained reason by a lot of people, chiefly Johannes. It is for sure he don't think Johannes to be an honest and down to earth people. And, more importantly, unlike you, he did not fling mud in public. Also, before calling him on his card-making ability, you could try to wait the Dance Macabre set for comparison. But wait, it would need for you to try to understand the situation and not just take side ...

I thought I did understand Jeff - I had a debate with him on this subject months ago on facebook, where I was basically saying I thought the set was a terrible idea as it would split the group and his stance was well OK but when its done we will give the cards to the VEKN anyway we just don't want our ideas used until then. Still didn't like it but it wasn't as bad as thought. Now it seems he is demanding they all be used or none at all, caveat etc caveat etc... Then the comment on this thread... I mean really? For the record I am all for flinging mud in public, that way its on record for all to see. And picking sides? I only care about the game tbh. Maybe I'm using slightly purple prose but I do think that this is ridiculous, both the set argument and also the comments here.

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > Bunter wrote: > > ...try to understand Jeff. He have been insulted numerous time by Johannes. > > > I can't racall a single instace where Johannes insulted Jeff or anybody else. > > Perhaps disagreeing with him is an insult? > Finnish Politics!

Well in all fairness there was some mud-slinging both ways in the drama earlier. Neither Jeff or the IC and by extension Johannes was innocent in this debacle.

> cordovader wrote: > I don't know if you can answer the V:tES Community yet, but it is something we've been wondering in the Spanish and French V:tES Community (at least I've exposed my questions in the forums). > > Will the print-on-demand program be focused on single cards or single card prices or will the old and new material be released in boosters-starters-kits? Maybe both options will be possible? > Actually I can answer: we don´t know yet. At least in the beginning the printer is not going to be able to handle single cards so it will be some sort of packages (and I have really nothing more specific than that). I got a couple of ideas kicking around my head and definitely the packaging will be made so it is very attractive for the players. The cost for a single card will go up (from booster prices) because the way of production just means more effort, but the intent will be to give the players more what they want and less stuff they already have. Definitely the pricing will not be oriented towards second market prices (so the cost for an Enkil Cog will be the same as for a Bum´s rush, it might just be a little "rarer").

What about singles in quantity? Like 10 copy minimum for any given card? Just a thought. I don't have room for any more bum's rushes but there are some cards I can make room for.

@Sonner: Reading between the lines of what Johannes has said, there will probably only be a couple of possible options. Option 1 Johannes, and whomever else, create a giant list of booster packs for each set of VTES all the waaaaay back through time. You come along and choose a booster-pack which gets put in the print queue and comes out later. i.e. You choose KoT. Then from there you choose a prebuilt booster that may contain Aaron's Feeding Razor, Adrian Lyla, Andre LeRoux, Tyler McGill and some other stuff. Option 2 You open up a page which has a little form with "Rare, Vampire, Vampire, Uncommon, Uncommon, Uncommon, Common, Common, Common, Common, Common, Common, Common, Common, Common". Then you start typing in the name of a card, search for it and then add it to your 'booster pack'. Once you've made your 'booster order' it is added to the print queue and you get it when it makes its way through the system. Repeat and rinse for all subsequent packs. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Option 2 > You open up a page which has a little form with "Rare, Vampire, Vampire, Uncommon, Uncommon, Uncommon, Common, Common, Common, Common, Common, Common, Common, Common, Common". Then you start typing in the name of a card, search for it and then add it to your 'booster pack'. Once you've made your 'booster order' it is added to the print queue and you get it when it makes its way through the system. Repeat and rinse for all subsequent packs. > Seeing that the retail cost per card will go up, I find this to be the most attractive option. However, some rares are more rare than others, which might influence things in the direction of random boosters. No matter what system is put in place, the main question that should be asked is "How many copies of this card would be used in a normal deck." Trick decks are fun, but you should have to buy more cards or trade for them to put them together. Enkil Cogs are really strong, and one or two per deck is more than enough. Blood Dolls, you might have 3 to 5 in a deck, and Wake With Evening's Freshness and Deflection, you might use 6 to 8 of each. This will produce a broader spectrum of rarity than rare, uncommon and common (which in actuality has further breakdowns of rare 1, rare 2, uncommon 1 and 2 etc.) AS WELL as it will produce rarity that is in line with how many cards should be printed (Just look at Eccentric Billionaire... all billion of them) Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

Would you, in the case of reprints, consider some sort of distinguishing the reprints, making them visibly "less attractive", so that the old cards wouldn't lose that much value? A very nice example are the Challenge decks for Middle-Earth the Wizards - the game uses black borders for limited editions, blue border for unlimited and battleship grey for the challenge decks. I believe such a solution could give the new players all the necessary cards and the secondary market wouldn't completely collapse. (I must confess I have a very "preciousss-like" attitude to my cards.) "I like to think there always are ...possibilities." Spock

@ Daidalos: not a bad idea actually..i'd go for that.

> Daidalos wrote: > Would you, in the case of reprints, consider some sort of distinguishing the reprints, making them visibly "less attractive", so that the old cards wouldn't lose that much value? A very nice example are the Challenge decks for Middle-Earth the Wizards - the game uses black borders for limited editions, blue border for unlimited and battleship grey for the challenge decks. I believe such a solution could give the new players all the necessary cards and the secondary market wouldn't completely collapse. > (I must confess I have a very "preciousss-like" attitude to my cards.) > this. very much this. i was kind of happy LSJ didn't reprint Sensory Deprivation in the Ravnos LotN set. myyyy.. prrreeecccciioooussss. haha

I can remember when magic used white borders for all base edition reprints. they did away with it because no-one ever preferred white borders. if the reprints don't look bad next to other cards its good otherwise not so much. but, I think re categorizing rarety for pod wouldbe an optimal way to make players happy. Uncommons like freak drive and deflection should be common or at least mote common, and junk rates like virilax facility should be mot rares. maybe a junk common category for wallpaper cards and rares like gather, which doesn't suck but is no cog or preternatural strength level card, could be made uncommon. immortal grapple, as the staple of potence, should be uncommon or common. just basic marketing logic says if more if what's useable is in the packs, the more they are worth buying, as is proven by comparing the anniversary tins or httb precons to other sealed product. or even the venture starter in kot to the other precons. I'm sure that is all being taken into consideration, but if this all works out I'd like to see more playable cards of all rareties , from abbot to purge to eyes of Argus to charisma, than I want to see trash like brick laying, remover,and hand intervention.

Hey, Remover is a good card! But that aside, yes the intention is not to reprint ANY trash cards in the beginning, because those can be easily had for almost free from other players. So the packs would only contain cards that can be actually used in decks.

My question was more of a suggestion really but of the two possible options presented #2 is far and away the more attractive. In fact I wouldn't purchase any random-sort of any kind, simply not interested at this point. If we're talking 'on demand' then I would want the ability to select the cards I'm purchasing. Especially at a premium (which we all seem to agree this would be). It sounds like this is an effort to save the game by making cards readily available to players new and old. That's my hope anyway; that this is about the fanbase and not a money-grab. Cards' previous distribution or 'rarity' in my opinion really shouldn't come into play; we're talking about cost-to-print and making cards available right? I truly hope this doesn't turn into a situation of trying to re-create a retail distribution type model (at a higher per-unit cost). I don't see how that would benefit new or old players, certainly not where I live anyway. I have no problem with the production team making a profit but please let’s leave rarity out of it. The game is great because it’s balanced without card limits. Open the gates in my opinion; we’re talking about saving a dying game aren’t we? What I’d personally like to see are specific print-run price points. Specific sized card lots cost X amount to purchase (based primarily on production costs) and the buyer allowed to select the cards printed, any given card costs the same to produce. Tiered print runs make sense (obviously a higher print run should = lower cost per unit). 12 vamps and 90 library cards makes the most sense to me as a baseline print order. But please, at this point, let everybody buy whatever cards they want or need, let’s leave scarcity out of it and please don’t try to make people buy cards they already have or didn’t want in the first place in order to get those they do. Please. I’m talking about retaining and attracting players. Two local long-time players with very deep collections have already sold their cards and a couple more have intentions to do the same. The main reasons are (1) we can’t replace ‘natural’ attrition in the playgroup and (2) the singles market is wildly inflated. Retaining new players was a challenge (for an obscure CCG) when newbs could go online to Potomac and drop a few hundred bucks to get started, that was a tough sell. Now the only new players who stick around are the occasional deck borrower... I’m saying fix those two issues and my playgroup comes back from the edge of the abyss. Let the newbs go to the site and design and purchase a complete deck. Who cares if it’s packed full of rares? I certainly don’t as long as it brings them to the table. IMO if you do this you will net more units sold than if you try to force people to buy cards they don’t want to get those they do. The singles market can go to hell as far as I’m concerned. For the record; I have been playing since ’94. I have cards from every set. I have multiple copies of Enkil Cog, double-digit copies of Sensory Dep (examples already mentioned on this thread). If my collection isn’t complete I’m hard pressed to tell you what cards I don't have (I can only think if 1 from HttB but I'm sure there's a few). I don’t care if the perceived value declines, it’s happened many times before. What good is any of it if nobody plays the game?

The Rarity System in VTES has usually been centered around functionality. The more narrow the functionality of the card, the more likely it is to be rare but also the stronger its 'narrow function' becomes. This is different to the MtG method which seems to just be Common = Crap, Rare = Good, Ultra-rare = GODLY AWESOMENESS. There are plenty of tournament winning decks that are almost exclusively Commons. They are broad functioning and not particularly powerful, hence they are used often and to good effect. I don't see this as an opportunity to topple that tradition. I do like the idea of being able to either 'pick-a-pack' or 'dial-a-booster'. Both of these give me the chance to do things like cater to my playerbase by making any 'common slots' cards that the newbies need and I don't (like my 99 WWEFs...) Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

I believe there will be necessarily pros and cons for both options. And it all comes to the problem of making the players happy. I will gladly order single cards, I will most likely buy a lot of boosters. Yet I would be very very unhappy, if I could order identically looking cards as those, that I had to pay for soooo much. Making the new and old prints distinguishable is, in my opinion, very important. Would the print on demand mean, that I could order 5 bloodlines Shrouds or 50 jyhad Freak drives? That is all I would like to know. Yes, as long as the players get the cards, the eminent threat of the game's final death is most likely dealt with (or postponed). But then again - why not play with proxies, if it wouldn't matter, what the cards look like? "I like to think there always are ...possibilities." Spock

The wonderful thing about print on demand, is the versatility. -You can have "choose your own cards" printing. (will probably have a baseline of how many cards to get at a time) -You can have random boosters (for drafts!) -You can have precon starter decks (perhaps have a deck marketplace where players can make decks, and other players can buy them!) -You can have "tournament support kits" (preferable at a favorable price, maybe with limited availability "promos" which can become generally available after 6 months) -You could offer different artwork for cards (how about a "promo" vampire that you upload a pic of yourself, that contests with other players'. Make it fun, and let players choose a 4 cap with three basic in-clan disciplines and have them all contest each other) The possibilities are endless. Ok, there are limitations, but not for the imagination Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

I love playing drafts, so if nothing else I hope there will be random boosters printed for this purpose.

I love to draft as well. But price point will be the make-or-break factor in any futrue limited play (for my group anyway). The key to drafting was everybody could chip in for an entire box of boosters for ~$65. Where I'm from NOBODY drafted at retail costs, not unless there was HEAVY prize suppport (like the old pre-release events that involved a starter + boosters and an entire box of swag for prizes). VTES was never a money game like Mt$. As far as 'rarity'. Pfft. There's no system or tradition, it was just whatever would get people to buy cards and changed constantly. Cards that were rare in early sets became uncommon and common in later sets. The hotness rares from one set would end up in starters for the next set. Rares in micro sets versus re-print rares from base sets vs NEW rares from later base sets, etc. etc. etc. At this point we should be saying 'scarcity' because it boils down to how many copies are in existence, not any given card's distribution within any given set(s). Ashur Tablets is technically common. What's the 'rarity' of 10th anniversary cards like Carlton Van Wyk? Sensory Dep was technically uncommon. War Ghouls and Great Beasts used to sell for $50. And yet Govern the Unaligned is still probably the single strongest non-master card in the game... at this point who cares? Other than people profiteering off the singles market...

> Soonerborn wrote: > I love to draft as well. But price point will be the make-or-break factor in any futrue limited play (for my group anyway). The key to drafting was everybody could chip in for an entire box of boosters for ~$65. > > Where I'm from NOBODY drafted at retail costs, not unless there was HEAVY prize suppport (like the old pre-release events that involved a starter + boosters and an entire box of swag for prizes). > > VTES was never a money game like Mt$. > > As far as 'rarity'. Pfft. There's no system or tradition, it was just whatever would get people to buy cards and changed constantly. Cards that were rare in early sets became uncommon and common in later sets. The hotness rares from one set would end up in starters for the next set. Rares in micro sets versus re-print rares from base sets vs NEW rares from later base sets, etc. etc. etc. > > At this point we should be saying 'scarcity' because it boils down to how many copies are in existence, not any given card's distribution within any given set(s). > > Ashur Tablets is technically common. What's the 'rarity' of 10th anniversary cards like Carlton Van Wyk? Sensory Dep was technically uncommon. War Ghouls and Great Beasts used to sell for $50. And yet Govern the Unaligned is still probably the single strongest non-master card in the game... at this point who cares? > > Other than people profiteering off the singles market... > One option would be selling only random boosters. - it's easier to produce than on-demand sets of cards - it allows drafting - it maintains the exchange market We could imagine a Sabbat-themed pack, a Camarilla-themed pack... Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Also, before firing up the machine, making a price estimate and showing it may be useful. While I would go up to $100 for a booster box, it may not be everybody, and more importantly $100 may actually be a lot less than what would cost on-demand printing.

Isn't the discussion specifically on-demand printing as a vehicle of providing printed cards (rather than PDF sets)? I mean yeah firing up the old retail distribution model is an 'option' except we've been led to believe that it isn't due to a whole host of legal/trademark issues. I'm just saying that random boosters produced through an 'on-demand' site (at a higher price point that the first time?) isn't going to revive my playgroup. If talking a new player into dropping a few hundred dollars on some starters and a booster box or two was a difficult sell, imaging trying to sell this to a new player. What I really don't understand is why preserve the exchange market at all? How does that help the game? If cards become more readily available and less expensive to purchase after market doesn't that help the potential new player? It's not like having a bunch of any given card in print will unbalance the game so who cares?

> Soonerborn wrote: > If talking a new player into dropping a few hundred dollars on some starters and a booster box or two was a difficult sell, imaging trying to sell this to a new player. > There could be also some starter kits with real useful cards (Pursuit, Govern the Unaligned, Deflection, Aid from Bats, Carrion Crows, Majesty, 2nd Tradition etc. in good quantities). > Soonerborn wrote: > What I really don't understand is why preserve the exchange market at all? How does that help the game? If cards become more readily available and less expensive to purchase after market doesn't that help the potential new player? > Many players are also collectors. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I think.sealed product with cards established as high demand would be an efficient way to reprint. blood shadowed court style, but lets say, every vamp from sabbat and sabbat war for a box, bloodlines vamps from all three sets in a box (or at least lets say salubri and salubri antitribu along with harbingers, and daughters as a box and baali, ahrimane, nagaraja, etc in another. then lets say all anarchs vamps with select ds and ah vamps. or buy One of every vamp in One clan as a collectors box. no tins, they cost too much, but thin plastic 100+ size ultra pros deck boxes with clan specific artwork would be cool. library cards could come in packs for either utility cards or narrower cards ( you get eight of freak drive and deflection, along with two parity shift, two perfect paragon, two awe, One kiss of rah and two daring the dawn from One set or 8 freak drives, 8 deep song, 3 pack alpha, 2 murder of crows, 2 sense dep, and two draba. you get the idea) if you were buying 25 cards for even ten dollars, and everything had either high usefulness to you or trade value, wouldn't it be worth it? And grouping pod cards in sets by clan isn't a bad idea by any means,since newbies and old players both win. Ben made the fastest selling precons in free history by making strong decks with sought after cards. man did the same thing to a leader extent with the kot ventrue deck. having precons like those for each set would greatly ease gaining and retaining new players. having ks steakthbleed, law firm, celerity guns wall, and anarchs grapple potence would be a great way to support a relaunch set utilizing the fundamentals or the game and use all cam clans with a small anarch splash. the possibilities are very promising for keeping the game alive and getting new players.

> Ankha wrote: > Many players are also collectors. > That's great, so taking the bottom out of the singles market (again) would benefit them too right? More cards at more affordable prices makes it that much easier to complete their collections. Disagree? I can get with the Rev's suggestions, I think that would be something a new player could embrace. I still prefer the idea of going onto a website, designing a complete deck and having it printed... that is ideal to me. A method for new players to build and acquire decks, not just a bunch of cards they may or may not ever use (or want to use), but cards the WILL use and right away. To play the game. If you're into collecting that's cool but we need players. -edit for spelling

There us also the great opportunity here to: a) print the cards with errata b) convert the old style cards into the newer style The blood shadowed court set had the same symbol as camarilla but it was distinguishable (silver) How about reprints along those lines?

I think reprinting cards with a modern outline that hadn't had One before would be great. I understand ranting to preserve the collectability of sense dep and Esmeralda, but reprinting them in modern frames maybe with different art couldn't hurt. I own zero sense dep but nobody in my play group, One of whom has roughly thirty of them, can agree with it not being reprinted, since nightmare curse is a weak substitute unless sense dep would have been banned. I've bought loads of cards and wouldn't be that mad if Mary Ann and Matthias both dropped to being worth a dollar each. I'd be happy. I could afford to buy stacks of either for the price of a few cards when I previously bought them. same with every card I've bought. rock cat was up to thirty bucks before it was in the httb starter. I've always wanted to have a modern frame Vincent day for decks with modern frame crypt, but was sol. now there can exist readilyavailable cards just like that. collectors who want the original prints of certain cards will find them cheaper with pod, and players who seek things like the cam edition prints of arika and Anatole, which is me sometimes, will find them easier and cheaper. while my distribution ideas may seem odd, collectors always kno cards may get reprinted, and that's a risk to a potential investment. new players quit games with no hope of getting the cards they want without investing heavily in a few key cards for a deck that seems fun. using think we should shaft anyone, but printing based on demand seems better than based on upholding rareties that weren't proper from the beginning with many cards.

> Ankha wrote: > Many players are also collectors. > They may be, but we are talking about a game. You need cards to play it. I saw no collector complain when shroud of absence got reprinted by the way. And I'd rather see my collection be worth less money, than seeing the game I still like so much become history. So if people are so eager to collect and hoard stuff for reselling, then i suggest they switch to comic books or sports cards. Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

My initial question was: will the new reprints be distinguishable from the old "originals"? Or: when reprinting Esmeralda, will the old design be used? Will the edition symbol be used? I also never could play decks like Baltimore Purge Ezmeralda and I am thrilled by the prospect of playing it one day. So print the cards, print them cheap, print them on demand single-wise, sell them in boosters, make the game available to anyone - just respect the game's history by making the new generation slightly different. "I like to think there always are ...possibilities." Spock

Yes! Preach it Reverend! New players quit games when they can't get cards! When they can't build the decks they want to without dropping a lot of money or get hosed on trades (by longtime veterans with huge collections). Yes yes yes. A true print on demand model will sell cards. I'm argueing you'll move more p.o.d. units if you allow people to select what they buy than if you try to push a dead CCG model. The players I know would participate if allowed to choose and will not buy anything that is 'random'. These are players who are alraady prepared to quit and in some cases newer players who joined late in the set releases (KoT and later) who feel abandoned. Not to mention the few players who have shown interest since the game went out of print, they're like, "it's a cool game, too bad it's dead". Give them the ability to build decks please. And rather than 'boosters' for limited play why not put together large 'draft stock' packages that are pre-sorted for booster-style draft (vamps to library sort) and will cover X number of players (5 per?). These could easily be sorted for elder draft or whatever. The options are boundless really. Cam draft set, Sabbat draft set, Indie clans, Laibon, combined sets, etc. Combine draft stocks to tailer the event. Draft text could be expanded! There's an oppotunity to improve the community here. Be good to the fans, especially the new fans, and I think you'll see better returns on this project. Reward loyalty IMO.

I'm of sort of a mixed mindset about the whole thing. I LOVE the idea of print-on-demand particularly if everything is available...however, one of the reasons I was able to get the game going so strong locally in a relatively small city where it might be expected that there was no V:TES scene at all, was that I was able to get my local brick-and-mortar gaming and comics store to carry a variety of V:TES stuff, and generally the players would buy through him instead of online, which naturally made him much more enthusiastic about promoting the game in concert with me...so I don't see how I could recreate that with this business model. I know I'm in the minority most likely, it seems most just bought their cards online for cheaper, which makes sense, but buying local did allow for more promotional opportunities here.

Not everyone is that fond of buying online and waiting. I'm sure that some companies buying and reselling pod product can/ will happen, since patomic is the only distributor with vtes stock and at least One shop I talked to locally that just opened said they might even order boxes from rose-tatu productions because they know vtes sells almost like mtg in Newark. the whole system is still not a garuntee, but among the plethora of things pod could mean, retailers can order vtes product they know they can move, making it at least hypothetically lower risk than before, where NoR collected dust and people would keep asking about backstop of cam or shipments of something new. there's spirit potential for the pipeline as well as the players. off topic, I'm not planning on or advocating contacting him, but does anyone know if Richard Garfeild is aware of our situation/ supports our efforts?

Forgive me if my English isn't enough to deliver my thoughts; it's not my first language. I am a prospective new player. You may check at my profile that I first registered at this forum about 7 months ago. At the time, I discovered Jyhad and thought it was a pretty cool game. A group of close friends and I like a variety of games, especially multiplayer. So, I thought, Jyhad could be a hit. There were, to my surprise, many players where I live, and also a fairly healthy meta in my country (Brazil). After trying the game for some weeks and even buying some cards, I couldn't recommend it to anyone. In fact, I could dissuade some guys from trying Jyhad. Most then started playing other rip-off games (i.e. CCGs), such as M:tG. Some (including the rest of my group) started playing A Game of Thrones LCG, which isn't really better is terms of business model. The reason is more or less simple: deceptive pricing in a so called "competitive" game is ludicrous. It's not even the randomness that is the worst part, but the artificial scarcity to benefit collectors. The secondary market isn't even an excuse, because trusting collectors to regulate prices which are in their interest isn't what wise people would consider "fair". The very existence of a secondary market marks an unfair model, characterized by the interests of few collectors against the growth of the game. Fools who have spent great deals of money on cards which they don't want to see devalued - even though the game suffers from it. Which is a shame, because this is a great game. Imagine an alternate world, more beautiful and with smarter people than our own, in which there aren't random packs or secondary markets for "competitive" games. All profit will go to the printers, which should make the game viable and the player base happy (because players don't want to be ripped off, right?). It means there won't be a CCG giant forcing you to spend lots of money to stay competitive and to enjoy a hobby. People would laugh at those who play roulette as a means of acquiring the tools of a game. Nobody would stand the fact that those with deep pockets have an advantage over those who don't - because this happens in life in general, but not in games. Games are supposed to be fun and accessible. Right? If anyone remembers the M:tG World decks, you'll see how obscene the CCG model is. You have a great deck, one which gives any player a chance to see how the "real game" plays without dropping a lot of cash into it, but that isn't tournament legal because any game that doesn't require hundreds of dollars to enjoy (and compete) is degenerate. In my opinion, at least, any game not letting you buy exactly what you want or need shits on the very spirit of competition. It's offensive, at least to me. To illustrate: imagine if M:tG continued selling random boosters, but also a print-on-demand $0,50 per card model, through which you could build $30 competitive decks. What would attract more players? Players only buy random boosters and tolerate a secondary market because they can't stand the fact that all the money they spent was useless. They sit on their collections like chickens hatching eggs. Someone is going to mention all-common decks. Please, don't. Instead of spending time trying to prove how it's theoretically possible to play affordable decks, imagine how it actually damages the game. For those who have large collections, it's fine. But for most players, there is a large advantage in using expensive decks with better cards. The prices skew the metagame and make an artificial barrier of entry. "That's a cool deck, I should try it". Lots of money. "I don't know, I would rather play as *". More money. "I should only change some cards...". More money and/or trades. But new players don't have trade cards that veteran players (anyone who still plays Jyhad) want. As a fighting game enthusiast, I take some things for granted. You can buy a great game (Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix, for instance, is a great game, despite the name) and play it for years. "I could try Fei Long"... Do it. "Guile has really easy execution, I should try him". Go ahead. You have all the tools available and they are very balanced against each other. The game holds up at very high levels of play, because it is a good game to begin with. But CCGs? Heh. I guess you know what I'm saying. You want a good constructed card game? Put all the cards in a box, like Summoner Wars. You want a good drafting game? Put all the cards in a box, like 7 Wonders or Fairy Tale (or even Race for the Galaxy or Dominion). Do you want a hybrid CCG? It's simple: barely survive for some time until M:tG, AGOT LCG and WoW TCG shit all over you. Random stuff obviously didn't work for Jyhad - and it's not attracting more players in the future, I'd say. I'm not sure attracting new players is a goal, anyway, because some collectors here want their collections to hold their "value". The value of a game, I should say, is to be playable, but I'm a little strange. If you want to collect, go collect things, not ruin a game. Stamps and butterflies seem to be a nice choice. Selling singles, with a fair price, could attract new players and direct pretty much all profit to the printers (why would you buy second hand cards when you can buy a complete deck for fair money?). It's better for new players, it makes it easier for people to try new decks and it motivates a nice business model. Shadowfist, other multiplayer ex-CCG, just had a successful Kickstarter run to, as they say, "bring Shadowfist to a new generation". "Future expansions will be released as non-randomized packs (...)", they say. And that's great! That's something that may grow the player base, making the game relevant and fun. Even old "Mr. Suitcase" players backed the Kickstarter, because reviving a game and making it go forward and grow is the only way to both enjoy it and pretend those pieces of paper have value. Sorry for a long rant, but, as someone who would like to get into this game, I thought I should post my opinion on this matter. I have even more to say, but I'm afraid I'd only repeat the gist of arguments I already made. In essence: if this project is successful, make it sell singles, so that players have control on what they get. If the game is good enough, it will hold any sorts of decks and will, if the price is fair, attract new players. If you don't get new players, the death of the game is inevitable. If you think a CCG model will hold up, well... The game would be in a better state if it did, right? This is a great opportunity to create an exciting model, one capable of things far beyond regular rip-off card games. You could build decks without an artificial card limit (what a LCG can't do), print cards with errata and so on. You could even, if the design team wants, make some past trash cards a little better, so that you could have even more variety in the metagame and more creativity. The possibilities are really cool. I didn't want to sound as bitter as I did, but it's sad for me to like a game beyond my reach. It would be a little sad for me to discover that maybe this is not the game for me, and not because I don't like it. Cheers, --Lucas

Thank you for the rant, Lucas. I fine it most important to know, where the problems are to acquire new players. I, as a "Mr Suitcase", am proud of the quantities of good cards I collected through the 18 years of playing. It took big efforts to get that many Deranges, Nephandi, Succubi, Disarms, ... I traded with half the world back in the old times, sending letters to Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Canada, the USA, heck, even to the Philippines to trade cards. I enjoyed that times very much. But times are changing. Many players don't want to invest that huge amounts of money in CCGs anymore. And many players don't play "real" games anymore and are lost to Onlinegames. So I think it's time for a change. Clearly new players can't lay their hands on many cards they would like to get. So the print on demand-thing is a good idea IMHO. Think about a deck, make a list and buy it online to get excactly what you want. Sounds great for new players if you ask me. I'd find it much easier that way to recruit new players as I can always tell them: "If you like my deck just buy it online and you can play it too" or something similar. I think I like that even if that means my card stocks lose its value. That fact doesn't hurt much because I never thought about selling it anyway . Baron of Frankfurt

First of all, I would like to express that if vtes would ever be printed again (which I doubt) I'll be very happy independently of the form of it. Secondly, I feel one aspect of the discussion is missing. Followers of "dial-a-card" vision are telling that this is better for attracting new players. I'm not so sure about it. First, don't forget that big prices for cards like ashur tablets or enkil cog we can observe now are the result of KoT not being in print anymore. If we could still buy boosters of it, the prices would be much, much smaller, so the barrier you are mentioning would be non existing. Second, it depends on kind of hobby the person is looking for. If it's just "I want to play a best multiplayer game" than this version is fine. But vtes gives you much more than just a game. Part of the fun is deckbuilding and TRADING. And that's the part you would kill with such distibution. Making some people unhappy, because some their treasures will lose a value is not a big problem, but making vtes less atrractive by removing part of a fun it could give is, IMO, much bigger problem. Still, as I mentioned at the begging, I would be crazy happy, if vtes could come back to live again, in any form

I'm not entirely convinced just printing what you want the best business model for the game to have longevity, but reclassifying how rarety works and making new players able to access certain things with extreme ease would be a feature of any method used for reprinting. new players for vtes typically don't want every card in the game handed to them, its too overwhelming. knowing how to play three decks and assuming in the back of their head that its only the tip of the iceberg is part of what retains prospective players. I'm sure that if pod vtes happens, everyone will make sure that its carried out in a way that ensures the games survival, which means oop stuff will become cheaper no matter what and will be made accessible to players new and old, likely by multiple means.

Let's be honest : staple card played by most deck that can (thing like Deep song, Target: Vital or Eye of Argus for the hard to get one, or Immortal Grapple, Psyche, or Govern for the one who aren't) should absolutely be either on pay per print or in preconstructed deck. Reediting rare and more obscure card like Mind Rape, Summon History, Call the great beast, and the like, may not be a too smart move. At least not on a pure pay per print. Of course, they will alway be some discussion. Should Ashur tablet be widely available ? And Sensory Deprivation, which is more or less one of the two card that define Ravnos with Week of Nightmare ? Should staple card for bloodline be widely available ?

I absolutely think freak drive, eyes of Argus, deep song, rego motus, target vitals, and many more should come in the next set of precons. in fact, those cards sell precons. if you use a rule of half the number you use in a twd. go into a precon then gangrel and ravnos each get four deep song and four freakdrive. right there, the deck is worth buying. add three pack alpha and a dog pack to gangrel and two draba and a sense dep to ravnos and you have something I believe to be ideal: playable starters for new players and great harvesting product for established players. bloodlines rare staples I can't decide. should neutral guard and summon history be in precons or click to order? I'm not sure I like that. But they need reprinted. same with cog. there are staples like deflection that need to be available in bulk for new players, by pod or in precons with other staples. I think everyone agrees on that helping the future of the game. cards being attainable for ten dollars or less on the singles market is what should happen, in my opinion.

I think, regardless of how you handle any new printing, it's an illusion that a lot of new players will suddenly enter the game. VTES is complex, takes a lot of time to learn as well as play and has a very low playerbase to start with. To top it off, the game will have to compete with Magic when it comes to attracting new players and that game has an amazing business-model for getting new players involved. So any new set or offer should be geared towards maintaining the current playerbase more than anything else.

Keep the ideas coming guys, this is all very helpful. The more insight I get into what the players want the better will the eventual outcome fit them. At the moment I have to agree with Izaak, keeping the current player base and re-activating lost players is probably the priority in the first step. Keep in mind that there will be technical difficulties and the more custom the whole order process will be the longer it will take to get it online. So most likely I will try to aim for some pre con decks that can be pushed immediately to the market once a potential deal can be reached, along with a longer term program for true POD. I will also look into the technical feasibility of changing the border color, it should remain dark I think, but probably some marbling or similar can be done. It depends if the border is embedded in the source image (don't think so) or was simply reached by black background plus the cutting stencil.

> johannes wrote: > I will also look into the technical feasibility of changing the border color, it should remain dark I think, but probably some marbling or similar can be done. It depends if the border is embedded in the source image (don't think so) or was simply reached by black background plus the cutting stencil. > Rather than change the border color, why not use an additional "expansion" symbol somewhere on the card (or perhaps a new expansion symbol?) to note that this is a reprint and not from the original printing?

> johannes wrote: > At the moment I have to agree with Izaak, keeping the current player base and re-activating lost players is probably the priority in the first step. > I agree with this. some may read it as "let's ignore recruiting new players" but I think it's the opposite. a game like VTES depends on keeping its current player base thriving before new players can even be added to the game. with Magic or YuGiOh, you only need 1 friend playing the game to have incentive to buy some cards and play. if they quit, you just need 1 other player as a replacement. with VTES, it's hard to see what's so great about the game unless you have 3 other people to play it with. and that group has to stay at 4+ people or else all of them will stop playing VTES.

As much as many of us would like to buy directly the cards we need to build a deck, there is a simple problem: this way we'd buy diametrically less cards, hence the game would make much less profit, hence can't be distributed on this principle only. Starters are a great idea. Tin boxes would be great, but any "vintage" edition would be a real blessing. How about a "Gold edition", with a gold metallic symbol ? "I like to think there always are ...possibilities." Spock

@Diadalos: Without the need to print 'random boosters' the publishers would actually save money... less printing = less costs. So I'd say that on a the whole the profit-cost ratios should be approximately equal. The Starters would be the deal-maker for allowing Princes to really expand their playerbases. The Tin Boxes might be a little difficult but there may be the option if/when they created some kind of collector set (or maybe as a prize for major tournaments such as 90 cards in a tin for winning a continental champs). I'd be happy with "white border" for the reprints, but I'd really want the cards to have updated texts and backgrounds and if needed, updated artwork. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

If you just print the cards that are actually useful, people will buy it if they're in random boosters. In the past, boosters were a risk because of the high amount of rare, but useless cards, if you take out those and only print the good, useful cards, I don't think it'll be a hard thing to sell. The different edition symbol seems like a good idea, and the precon decks also. Maybe, you could go back to the Jyhad type decks, no fix cards just randomly X cards. It's like a large booster. The expansion would be the best, if you can manage it to be like: 50 or so new cards and 100 or so reprints from the older sets, maybe based on a poll (separately for each card type, the top 20 gets into the fold). Bloodlines and LoB cards almost as sought after as the KoT cards.

> Poci wrote: > Maybe, you could go back to the Jyhad type decks, no fix cards just randomly X cards. > Precon have the advantage of being directly playable for total newbies. If you remove the retailer constraint (they don't want to shelf 40 or so different starters), is it possible to have one starter per clan available? Lasombra and Gangrel in particular badly need a reprint of their core discipline.

> Non-existant user wrote: > Precon have the advantage of being directly playable for total newbies. If you remove the retailer constraint (they don't want to shelf 40 or so different starters), is it possible to have one starter per clan available? > Also, if the precons were reworked to the save level of quality as the HTTB starters, ie. competitive. Then that would greatly diversify the number of clans played (if only by new players). Precon design could also be used for side marketing, ie. A large scale design competition or similar — I'm sure a lot of players would be interested in that (esp for the more challenging clans). Being able to start with (almost) any clan would highlight the richness and diversity of V:TES and if all the decks were reasonably competitive then new players wouldn't feel like they needed to invest heavily to stand a chance (skill aside). Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook

I would not do preconstructed deck for bloodline for two reason : * they are supposed to be rare. It would feel strange me to see as much Kyaside as !Brujah. * a lot of bloodline are based on quirky, hard to get card. So they would impact more card collection value than other preconstructed * some bloodline can't or are not supposed to be played alone. Nagaraja and Abomination are the chief one, but even True Brujah or Salubri are not supposed to be played alone anyhow.

Agreed — that was the (almost) part. That said, if a Nagaraja or Abomination vampire worked really well with a specific clan then it would make sense if they were at least considered for that precon. > Ohlmann wrote: > I would not do preconstructed deck for bloodline for two reason : > * they are supposed to be rare. It would feel strange me to see as much Kyaside as !Brujah. > * a lot of bloodline are based on quirky, hard to get card. So they would impact more card collection value than other preconstructed > * some bloodline can't or are not supposed to be played alone. Nagaraja and Abomination are the chief one, but even True Brujah or Salubri are not supposed to be played alone anyhow. > Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook

> Non-existant user wrote: > > > Poci wrote: > > Maybe, you could go back to the Jyhad type decks, no fix cards just randomly X cards. > > > Precon have the advantage of being directly playable for total newbies. If you remove the retailer constraint (they don't want to shelf 40 or so different starters), is it possible to have one starter per clan available? Lasombra and Gangrel in particular badly need a reprint of their core discipline. > Great idea. Starters for all (or almost all) clans would be a great way to open up the game for potential new players while providing a vessel for highly demanded, useful reprints and/or new cards.

> Ohlmann wrote: > * they are supposed to be rare. It would feel strange me to see as much Kyaside as !Brujah. > Lore rarity != card rarity. The rarity of bloodlines is already represented in game by fewer vampires. > > * a lot of bloodline are based on quirky, hard to get card. So they would impact more card collection value than other preconstructed > There is no such universal thing as "card collection value". It evolves through time, and almost always goes down. Reprinting high value cards has been the policy ever since White Wolf took over. Did you complain when a War Ghoul got fixed in 3rd? A Disarm in Black Hand? A DI in Sabbat War? When Immortal grapple and Freak Drive were downgraded from R to U? > > * some bloodline can't or are not supposed to be played alone. Nagaraja and Abomination are the chief one, but even True Brujah or Salubri are not supposed to be played alone anyhow. > Yes, Nagarajah and Abomination do not need a starter (although if the plan is to reprint everything, the vampires should still be available somehow), but there is no reason to exclude and from a reprint. Those clans force you to play a superstar deck and have a built-in extra "contest" rule to penalize them if they become too frequent. Once again, card availability is not and should not be the limiting factor that keeps them rare on the table.

> Non-existant user wrote: > Lore rarity != card rarity. The rarity of bloodlines is already represented in game by fewer vampires. > It's still don't respond to the fact that I don't like seeing a tournament with mutliple True Brujah or Kyaside deck. Having to work harder to get thoses bloodline is not something all that infuriating in my opinion and will channel people to regular clan. There is already 20 non-bloodline clan ! Bloodline are ultimately not the focus of this game. The focus is, in this order, Camarilla, Sabbat, then independant vying for influence in the djihad, not the loser on the wayside or the one-shot experimentation. And almost all bloodline are either failed experiment or remnant of destroyed groups. > > Non-existant user wrote: > There is no such universal thing as "card collection value". It evolves through time, and almost always goes down. Reprinting high value cards has been the policy ever since White Wolf took over. Did you complain when a War Ghoul got fixed in 3rd? A Disarm in Black Hand? A DI in Sabbat War? When Immortal grapple and Freak Drive were downgraded from R to U? > It's a strict question of opinion. As of I, I strongly think that the reedition of Call the great Beast and War ghoul was an error. (even if my 9 war ghoul are all 3rd edition ) I have already said that difficult to replace card should be reprinted, but not the other. Bloodline are optional stuff in their very essence in my opinion. Everybody should be able to do a ventrue lawfirm or a tremere wall ; but if most people find impossible to create a good kyaside or True Brujah deck, then they already have a lot of option for them. > > Non-existant user wrote: > Yes, Nagarajah and Abomination do not need a starter, but there is no reason to exclude and from a reprint. Those clans force you to play a superstar deck and have a built-in extra "contest" rule to penalize them if they become too frequent. Once again, card availability is not and should not be the limiting factor that keeps them rare on the table. > Once again, it should be one of thoses factor. Making them weaker feel crappy ; making them hard to do feel rewarding. And having, say for example, True brujah be the most played clan because it's the stronger at the time and card rarity is not a factor is stupid and should be prevented at all price.

Well.. as a player and a collector (sort of) I rather have all the cards that I need for a deck than having to put this or that idea away due to lack of some cards. However, imho, I think that all the staples should be available to the new players, like deflections, wakes, blood dolls or vessels, paths, villeins, and even the dreams of sphinx. That can easily be achieved through well made precon decks. I also think that the possibility of printing on demand is quite interesting, but, the bottom line is... if you can pick all the cards that you really use, why buy more? - Does anyone want a bloodbath, resume the coil, vendetta, or other rare cards that taking out the drafts will never be used? The bottom line is, yes you can create print-on-demand sets. I want some... I can imagine a full sheet of Tangles, Neutral guards, sensory deprivations, ashurs, etc,etc. But that's not business wise (for the players it is). In my opinion you should be able to reprint out of print cards like: For every 24 common's you could have 6 uncommons and 3 rares. The uncommons could be vampires or in some cases rares. The reprinted cards or the new sets must have a different set symbol or a red circle or something around the old one. BTW I disagree with changing the border of the cards. All the borders should be similar so its harder to other players to notice what cards we have in our hands.

One of the best reasons to convince people to play VTES instead of MtG (or whatever) is that you can build fairly competative decks with just common cards. People don't wanna start buying cards for >€1000 euro just to build a competative deck. They want to start slow, have a chance to win and slowly build up a collection if they find the game to be fun. It's a great selling point that should be reinforced. Print cards that you require many of (Eyes of Argus, Ashur, On the Qui Vie, Carrion Crows and so on) as common. Print cards that you require few of (Enkil Cog, Many unique cards, Hunting Grounds, Title cards) as rare. And everything in between as uncommon. Opening a box to find 17 Eccentric Billionaire or opening 4 boxes and recieve 0 Preternatural Strength or Summon History is a great source of annoyance. Vampires could benefit from this common-usage, uncommon-usage and rare-usage also. Generally the higher cap of a vamp the liklier you use multiple copies (except for a few honorable exceptions such as Anarch Convert) and the more reason they should be common. For example: Cap 5, 6, 7, 8 (25% more common than Cap 1, 2, 3, 4) Cap 9, 10, 11 (50% more common than cap 1, 2, 3, 4)

> Chaitan wrote: > Vampires could benefit from this common-usage, uncommon-usage and rare-usage also. Generally the higher cap of a vamp the liklier you use multiple copies (except for a few honorable exceptions such as Anarch Convert) and the more reason they should be common. > For example: > Cap 5, 6, 7, 8 (25% more common than Cap 1, 2, 3, 4) > Cap 9, 10, 11 (50% more common than cap 1, 2, 3, 4) > It's not completely stupid, but having side kick harder to get than star feel very, very frustrating. It's workable by aving a lot more unique cap 1-5, each individually less common than the 9+. So you have a lot of (different) sidekick and easy access to numerous copy of a star.

[completely irrelevent, but the happy face + pin makes it look like the guy is happy to get pinned in the eye...]

> Ohlmann wrote: > It's not completely stupid, but having side kick harder to get than star feel very, very frustrating. > Only if it is randomized. If fixed or PoD, then it should just be about the numbers everyone needs. 3rd Ed. starters used about those proportions and they work great, especially when mashing 2 starters together to build a deck.

> Non-existant user wrote: > Only if it is randomized. If fixed or PoD, then it should just be about the numbers everyone needs. > I agree completely. The number of unique vampire still need to be higher, because if your preconstructed sport 5 Haarderstadt, 2 Adana and 7 sidekick, that's 7 unique sidekick for 2 high cap

We will probably need vampire-only packs anyway: if the starters are to be playable, they will only contain a sample of one or two groups. The rest of the crypt choice needs to be distributed somehow too. It could be sorted by group and clan, group only, expansion,... I think group/clan would make the most sense.

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > @Diadalos: Without the need to print 'random boosters' the publishers would actually save money... less printing = less costs. So I'd say that on a the whole the profit-cost ratios should be approximately equal. > Unless you know what the costs are, how can you know any of this? > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > The Starters would be the deal-maker for allowing Princes to really expand their playerbases. > There are, literally, thousands of boxes of starters available RIGHT NOW. why aren't those enough to expand your player base? Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

I think, we forgot something....The new product(s) have to be available and sellable in general shops!! It's great to support the community, have the thing POD, but the general distributors also have to be pleased imho. There's have to be a way, where both the existing, restarting, newcoming players are pleased and the general distributors also rediscover the game, and starts selling again. You all know that they are still the top marketers and if they're not selling the game again it'd be a lot harder to find newbies, because they can't buy it everywhere. Preconstructed decks are good, but you cannot make 15 different ones (of course there could be 4 or such, but not that many). If you have POD and everybody can have every card for buttons it's almost not better than proxying. Kickstarters should be introduced anyway (like a 50 crypt cards, and 50 general cards, like dreams, pentex, gb, villein and of course some others), and there should be sabbat, indie, cammy and laibon ones, for a start. I'm still in favour of a new large expansion, like the one i'd mentioned: 100ish reprints from various sets and decided by polls and 50ish new cards (the new DM expansion would be good for this). This would take literally no further developing, just the distributing concept to be figured out. The rarity system should stay but rethinked (I don't want to see only enkil cog based high-cap decks or ashur madnesses everywhere). Anyway, this is still a CCG and a reckless PoD would kill the secondary market, the shops and the ebay stores both. That's not exactly what the game needs.

> Poci wrote: > I think, we forgot something....The new product(s) have to be available and sellable in general shops!! > You know, general shop may very well not be interested at all. Distribution to local retailer is a major pain in the ass, is pretty costly, and shop will sell them at more expensives price because they have to gain money and cover the fact they won't sell everything. Also, don't forget that this will start small : most likely some 10th anniversary-like pack with the Dance macabre expansion and the most vital reprint possible, so as to not gamble too much money on the initial offer. In the future, maybe the 24 clan will have a preconstructed deck, but this will be far in the future, once the machine will be working as intended.

That's right, but if you load the market with cheap cards, it'll deteriorate the distributors for the future and that's not good. Maybe the reprints can be distributed like the 10th ed., or as kickstarters, but the future expansions should retain the Precon-booster type distribution in some form.

Trying to get individual shops to buy whatever gets released is possibly too much of a long shot initially. starting higher in the pipeline, like with distributors, is probably more prudent initially, so people can still obtain things at shops if demand is high. also, I've said things before about having cheaper but still decorative vtes sized deck boxes as special items. the reason I didn't say tins is that I've heard white wolf actually lost money on the tenth anniversary ones because the physical tins themselves were fairly costly to have made compared to the retail of each unit with cards. I think precons aren't the outlet for special boxes, but reprint sets would be. as for the number of precons, some are simply better outlets for reprints and new players than others. if each of the three sects get four or five precons and each sect has a box of eight or ten decks, two of each, I think it would be appropriate.

> Poci wrote: > I think, we forgot something....The new product(s) have to be available and sellable in general shops!! It's great to support the community, have the thing POD, but the general distributors also have to be pleased imho. There's have to be a way, where both the existing, restarting, newcoming players are pleased and the general distributors also rediscover the game, and starts selling again. You all know that they are still the top marketers and if they're not selling the game again it'd be a lot harder to find newbies, because they can't buy it everywhere. > If this is print-on-demand, the internet is everywhere. Brick-and-mortar game store shelves aren't necessary to sell the product, nor will they be part of the sales process at any level. Go play VTES at your game store and buy some sodas and candy bars from them while you play. Maybe buy a board game once a year. They'll be happy that you play there. > Poci wrote: > Anyway, this is still a CCG and a reckless PoD would kill the secondary market, the shops and the ebay stores both. That's not exactly what the game needs. > No company that manufactures a game cares about the secondary market. They care about selling their product and making a profit. The person that is selling their product on the secondary market doesn't make the manufacturer a profit. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

Just to reiterate, like many here I'd be happy for v:tes to return in whatever form it can Let's try another idea... How about reprint the original V:tES as boosters (as before) or as sets of 11 random booster cards (POD) and always make this available. This is good for: -draft -new players to get needed cards -attracting new players -experienced players -shops to stock Then explore other PoD options for specific rares, other sets etc. Personally I think it has been a MASSIVE mistake that base cards weren't always available. I've seen friends buy a starter or two, then buy a few boosters from sets available at the time... none of the cards really helped them create a 'basic' collection or improve what they had. They saw this as a waste of money. Vtes player lost Additionally... I used to play Mt$ and asthetically hated that some cards had white borders, some black. eugh. Please don't change the appearance of the cards again. Just make the edition symbol different please. Making older cards available in the newer format would be ace.

> Joscha wrote: > Thank you for the rant, Lucas. I fine it most important to know, where the problems are to acquire new players. > > I, as a "Mr Suitcase", am proud of the quantities of good cards I collected through the 18 years of playing. It took big efforts to get that many Deranges, Nephandi, Succubi, Disarms, ... I traded with half the world back in the old times, sending letters to Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Canada, the USA, heck, even to the Philippines to trade cards. > > I enjoyed that times very much. But times are changing. Many players don't want to invest that huge amounts of money in CCGs anymore. And many players don't play "real" games anymore and are lost to Onlinegames. So I think it's time for a change. > > Clearly new players can't lay their hands on many cards they would like to get. So the print on demand-thing is a good idea IMHO. Think about a deck, make a list and buy it online to get excactly what you want. Sounds great for new players if you ask me. I'd find it much easier that way to recruit new players as I can always tell them: "If you like my deck just buy it online and you can play it too" or something similar. I think I like that even if that means my card stocks lose its value. That fact doesn't hurt much because I never thought about selling it anyway . > Actually, thank you. I thought that rant would be pretty badly received; after all, long time players obviously are okay with the business model of the game. I'm preaching to deaf ears, in a way. Knowing there is someone out there who can see why I think the way I do about collectability is actually refreshing. I feel that maintaining a level playing field - or as close as possible - is indispensable in keeping the integrity of a game. > alek wrote: > First of all, I would like to express that if vtes would ever be printed again (which I doubt) I'll be very happy independently of the form of it. > Secondly, I feel one aspect of the discussion is missing. > Followers of "dial-a-card" vision are telling that this is better for attracting new players. I'm not so sure about it. First, don't forget that big prices for cards like ashur tablets or enkil cog we can observe now are the result of KoT not being in print anymore. If we could still buy boosters of it, the prices would be much, much smaller, so the barrier you are mentioning would be non existing. Second, it depends on kind of hobby the person is looking for. If it's just "I want to play a best multiplayer game" than this version is fine. But vtes gives you much more than just a game. Part of the fun is deckbuilding and TRADING. And that's the part you would kill with such distibution. Making some people unhappy, because some their treasures will lose a value is not a big problem, but making vtes less atrractive by removing part of a fun it could give is, IMO, much bigger problem. > Still, as I mentioned at the begging, I would be crazy happy, if vtes could come back to live again, in any form > I see your point. As a prospective new player myself, and after talking to other people interested in the game, I thought that the opinion of a genuine new player was lacking in the discussion. I'm sure you get overwhelming feedback from new players demanding a fun, intrinsically deceptive model that only gives you random access to the game. They respect this proud tradition, one that puts powerful cards behind a speculative barrier. If so, carry on; only good can come from giving people what they genuinely want. Moreover, tricking people into dropping obscene amounts of money to acquire desirable pieces of paper may be good to the future of the game, even though some may observe that the very existence of the secondary market is a consequence of this model. After all, what would be M:tG, for instance, without the reserved list and non-transparent pricing? Only a game, not a business enjoyed by countless collectors and speculators who buy in bulk only to earn profits through the secondary market. Which is ironic, because, even though the secondary market doesn't give WotC a penny, feeding it is integral to the viability of the game. Again, nothing wrong on giving people what they want; even better if trading is indeed what they want. > Izaak wrote: > I think, regardless of how you handle any new printing, it's an illusion that a lot of new players will suddenly enter the game. > > VTES is complex, takes a lot of time to learn as well as play and has a very low playerbase to start with. To top it off, the game will have to compete with Magic when it comes to attracting new players and that game has an amazing business-model for getting new players involved. > > So any new set or offer should be geared towards maintaining the current playerbase more than anything else. > So you can't cite games which are "complex, take a lot of time to learn as well as play", but large playerbases? Starcraft, DotA, other CCGs (take, for example, L5R), many fighting games (let's say, Guilty Gear or Virtua Fighter), many board games and/or wargames (have you ever heard of "Twilight Imperium"?) etc. If you think being complex and so on are the sole reasons Jyhad doesn't have more market penetration, I can't really convince you otherwise. I don't want to sound naïve, but I hardly think that maintaining the current playerbase is taking you anywhere. But that's the perspective of an outsider; what do I know of this matter? > johannes wrote: > Keep the ideas coming guys, this is all very helpful. The more insight I get into what the players want the better will the eventual outcome fit them. > > At the moment I have to agree with Izaak, keeping the current player base and re-activating lost players is probably the priority in the first step. Keep in mind that there will be technical difficulties and the more custom the whole order process will be the longer it will take to get it online. So most likely I will try to aim for some pre con decks that can be pushed immediately to the market once a potential deal can be reached, along with a longer term program for true POD. > > I will also look into the technical feasibility of changing the border color, it should remain dark I think, but probably some marbling or similar can be done. It depends if the border is embedded in the source image (don't think so) or was simply reached by black background plus the cutting stencil. > Well, you're the boss. You obviously know the players and what they want. I'm sure you're doing the best in your powers to keep the game as alive as it can be considering the circumstances. Due to my repugnance towards collectability in games, specially if tied to non-transparent (or "deceptive", in my opinion) business models, I think my judgment is partial and impaired. Nevertheless, I wish you all the luck in the world with this project.

If the game gets back to print, I don't care how it is printed. Anything is better than nothing. Jussi Hattara Webmaster Extraordinaire Finnish Politics!

> jhattara wrote: > If the game gets back to print, I don't care how it is printed. Anything is better than nothing. > Seconded!!! All this discussion actually is for naught, as long as we dont have any new details. - Prince of Karlsruhe, Germany

I disagree. It is much better to discuss the options beforehand. Yes, any form of revamping the game is better than nothing, but it hardly means, that this kind of brainstorming is useless. "I like to think there always are ...possibilities." Spock

> Ohlmann wrote: > It's still don't respond to the fact that I don't like seeing a tournament with mutliple True Brujah or Kyaside deck. > Uh, what? VTES isn't a simulation of 1st Edition WoD/Vampire. So the numbers of vamps/their clans don't have to correspond to any perceived ratio of WoD canon. When you've been building decks, have you been taking consideration the relative number of vampires of each clan? "Oh, now I've done a Brujah deck. Can't build another one until I've put together a deck of X, Y,Z, etc etc so that the harmony of WoD doesn't shatter..." Perhaps we should also institute "official" clan ratios for tournaments. "Ah, participant number 49. You want to register and your clan of choice is... Ventrue, right? Unfortunately the Ventrues are already full but, tell you what, we still have some Caitiff slots available if you want to participate." Back to the topic on hand: -The starters for each clan sound interesting -I really liked Blood Shadowed Court way of reprinting (=all vampires from one expansion). You could also sell full clan sets -all the vampires of a given clan. And if you want more versatility, you could just chose ones from certain grouping (Group 1 Brujah etc). -Theme sets: 30 cards (or whatever is suitable) of Potence Combat (or Presence voting etc etc) so you get a solid block of cards. Say, 6 Immortal Grapples, 4 Disarms, 4 Slams, 4 Might Grapples, etc -How to diffrentiate PoD cards from normal cards. Replace the set symbol with a suitable symbol. Since a printer might not be that classy, perhaps outlines of a classic Remminton typewriter? (Or just stick a PoD text on top o the set symbol. Or color the set symbol differently. It ain't rocket science.) Finnish Politics!

Great posts Mimir, this coming from a longtime player (as long as any). I've heard very similar sentiments from nearly every potential new player we've come across for the past several years (where I live we still routinely demo at cons and actively recruit at game shops, etc.) I really want to stress that the health of any game lies in it's player base and with a game as niche as vtes recruiting new players is essential just to have enough people to play regular games, not to mention holding sanctioned events and the like. More players = more demand for product. Doesn't this go without saying? I don't think anybody has said that POD will bring in "a lot" of new players but some new players are better than none, can we agree? Coming from a playgroup on the brink of final death, I'm asking kindly to make cards easily and inexpensively available to new players. All us old 'Mr Suitcases' aren't interested in buying reprints anyway. Two of the local longtime players were dissappointed by the prospect of buying printed cards again, they were looking forward to the (free) PDF. Probably won't buy the new set (and certainly won't buy reprinted cards). Very few local players buy singles either (though some have begun selling because the market is so inflated). It seems to me that some of the comments on this thread are driven by longime players who don't want to see the advantage of superior collections diminished and/or those that profiteer from the secondary market. I'm asking you to look at this from the standpoint that this game is going to die if our player base continues to shrink. Release your new set, myself and the other old timers will buy it (provided it's good and reasonably priced). I still believe POD lends itself to improving the experience for the playing community, in doing so I believe you stand to move more units than if you try to revive the supremely un-fan-friendly CCG model. I still say a design-a-deck-for-print function is ideal for players new and old but if is MUST be precons for whatever reason, please at least let Benny design them again...

> So you can't cite games which are "complex, take a lot of time to learn as well as play", but large playerbases? Starcraft, DotA, other CCGs (take, for example, L5R), many fighting games (let's say, Guilty Gear or Virtua Fighter), many board games and/or wargames (have you ever heard of "Twilight Imperium"?) etc. If you think being complex and so on are the sole reasons Jyhad doesn't have more market penetration, I can't really convince you otherwise. > This is a really naive post. Are you actually comparing the complexity of VTES with that of some popular video games? I'll help you wake up from that dream - neither DotA not Starcraft is hard to play. The concept is as simple as it gets and anyone can sit down behind their computer and play it without reading a single guide or manual. It's literally download - install and go. Yes, both games are hard to master, but that's something entirely different. And that's not even going into the fact that those are actually video games and are as such widely more accessible by a lot of people, get a lot of attention on various websites and more importantly, can be played alone. Oh and they're either free or cost, like, $40 at most. The fact that they're arguably more fun with friends is redundant; games like that are WAY easier to pick up than VTES ever was. You're also completely ignoring the fact that VTES is, and always has been, fishing in the same pond as Magic. As you may or may not be aware, Magic has long ago changed their business model from requiring Mr Suitcase to even be competitive to being able to literally spend $30 on a fat pack to have a somewhat reasonable deck. Add in a bunch of extra boosters from the corresponding blocks and you have some deck options. Grab a second fat pack and you can build multiple reasonable decks. All for less than $100. Having 5 colors instead of like 25 disciplines makes boosters actually useful, as opposed to VTES where boosters are usually a good source of frustration unless you opened a box or more. Magic is easy (and cheap) to pick up, extremely easy to learn and can be played 1v1, which makes finding games significantly easier for basically everyone. So yes, at this point in time I don't think betting on new players for VTES to survive a few more years is a good idea. When 3rd and KoT were still readily available, we didn't get a lot of new players. What makes you think a POD scheme or something similar will suddenly attract a significant amount of new players? All it will do is allow vets to round out their collections with a few Enkil Cogs and Summon Histories and flood the secondary market with those cards. The only time the game actually got a ton of new players was when White Wolf revived the game with Camarilla Edition. The number has been on the decline since and new cards won't change that. It's no longer 1998-2003 where even supermarkets sold CCG cards. People with money to blow on games for entertainment turn to PC/PS/XBox games nowadays. > I don't want to sound naïve, but I hardly think that maintaining the current playerbase is taking you anywhere. But that's the perspective of an outsider; what do I know of this matter? > Well, judging from tournament attendance both locally as well as international, it's fairly obvious that retaining the playerbase has turned out to be pretty rough. I doubt a bunch of new cards will change that much, mostly because it's so freaking hard to get a game going if you don't have a solid, reliable group you can play with. I mean, I'm not saying that making boosters with shit rares is the way to go, but the game growing because of a fan-set or POD cards is just as likely as CCP starting to print it again. As much as I'd like to have a ton of players available, we 're gonna have to be realistic at some point.

@Izaak I've got a MtG Judge for a friend (and I know his soul needs saving but he's enjoying his sins too much)... he openly admits to be competitive in MtG you need a deck built on rares. It might take him a little to put it so openly, but that aspect of MtG has not changed and will not while MtG's design model places greater raw power on cards with increased rarity. VTES has not really been like that. Increased rarity usually means increased specialist roles or greater opportunity costs. So stop tossing around that little straw-man. As far as being in print helping playerbases. I've got at least 2, but probably 5 players who would love to be able to expand their collections. They got limited material a while ago (or in the case of one guy, lost a 5000pc box to the territorial markings of a feline) and can't gain any more and don't want to be spending lots of cash on speculative eBay Bulk Lots or trying to buy 4 copies of Enkil Cog at $100 ea. I have been steadily recruiting players for years. Our group got serious growth post Cam-Ed and I've been doing what I can to keep and maintain those numbers. Having new cards available makes that job SO much easier. It's even easier if I can hand them basically a small business card with a website and tell them that it will cost $20-$30 to get their first deck, which would be playable, delivered to their door. If they want more, they can get more there and all the cards that the 'old guys' have are available. Sounds golden. (It may also push cards like Sensory Deprivation to be neutered... because everyone can have a Sense Dep deck then!). Having something to keep the old players in (the PDF set) is the start. Once you can keep the groups alive, then we can go about expanding them. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

OK, I got over seven pages in before I said screw it and decided to post my thoughts. I got into this game as it went out of print and have had some great success at putting together a collection myself but regardless, there are some cards that are simply impossible to get. I like the idea of Re-releasing previous sets a lot for that reason but I also do not need another blood doll. In order to properly preserve the history of the game you will need to reprint the suck cards as well as the good ones. Here's a solution for what it's worth. Experienced players all know that commons in the current iteration of the game are as powerful as the rares which has always been a key factor that allows new players to kick ass as well as the longtime players, unlike MTG. I played Magic the Gathering when it came out and promptly quit when I made the deck to end all decks. Four copies of the power nine, three channels and a fireball. Playing Magic was a game about who had the most money. If you had these 39 rares and one common you had a one turn kill and could pretty much guarantee the new player wasn't too keen on playing after a few duels against it. Anyways, the solution. Reverse the rarity of all sets. Make Blood Doll a rare and Mind Rape a common. New players will be able to get their "rares" from old players and vice versa. The reprints ought to be distinguishable from the originals, much like Sabbat and Sabbat War, One thing I would also like to see is some of the original artwork come back. Anson Maddocks artwork for Madness Network is the bomb. (It might also be nice to replace all of Gary Chatterton's artwork with artwork but that would not preserve history I suppose. I guess I will just have to puke in my mouth a little every time Depravity hits the table. Has anyone come up with a Chatterton themed deck yet? I imagine it would generate some serious table hate!) Another thing is the music quotes on the original Jyhad cards... I am assuming that was a legal issue when it was changed, if it wasn't bring it back.

Suppose that the game were printed like it was under WW/CCP. What did people like or dislike about the model while the game was still in print? Because, if the old system wasn't all that great for building the playerbase, then that can be eliminated as a desired alternative. Examples of some criticisms: 1. I recall a time when people complained about sets coming out too fast, whereas I was of the opinion at the time that sets didn't come out often enough as they came out far less frequently than other niche CCGs. Now, I don't care so much about new cards. Unless you reboot a game, it suffers horribly from mechanics bloat. While it's questionable the extent of the burden of new mechanics, the difficulty not only of learning the game but keeping up with the game is such that every new mechanic strikes me as making the game less appealing rather than more. While some of that exists for anything new, even if the new is easy to process, like vampires with different discipline mixes, I'm not bothered in the same way about expansion without complexity creep. 2. There were a small number of cases of odd rarity choices. I don't mean making something rare that everyone would like to have - that's a hardly surprising decision with a CCG. I actually mean cases where commons should have been rarer, like Reins of Power and any other once per game vote being a rare, Ravager being rare (depressing rare to crack, but it does make sense), The Oath not being common. 3. The history of bizarre precons. While they moved towards getting better over time, the card choices were just insane. How about the amazing x5 Templars in the !Toreador precon? How about the reluctance to print .44 Magnums? No Spiritual Intervention in LotN Giovanni (while having absurd cards like Forger's Hammer). Extreme imbalances in the playability of precons within the same set as seen with CE or more recently with LotN. 4. Not just precons, but a number of reprint decisions have been problematic for new players. I started a document of underprinted cards. Some of these are well known. Some, I think are surprising since I don't see people mention them. We can complain bitterly about how Bang Nakh should never have seen reprint, but it's amazing that .44 Magnum couldn't make it as a common since Sabbat, that Movement of the Mind hasn't been printed since V:TES, Parity Shift since CE, Spiritual Intervention only reprinted in 10th, Earth Meld not since Anarchs, no Deflection between BH and HttB, Sensory Deprivation not since FN, etc. I understand that artwork has been an issue for some cards, but then, go get some new artwork - it's not like art changes are all that rare for CCGs. Why hasn't Carlton seen reprint? Liquidation? 5. Missed opportunities. It definitely seems like I care more about the Laibon being shafted on crypt choices and other cards than others, but how about a Camarilla set that actually expands library cards for Camarilla decks to a significant degree? For those who read my blog, they might remember my noting just how few Camarilla allies there are in the game. Also, Primogen cards, Camarilla sect requiring cards that have nothing to do with titles or clans, etc. The argument that the Camarilla has always been plenty powerful just doesn't wash. Expansion isn't about power, it's about more options. For the most part, the Camarilla has gotten new vampires to play with, which is something (group 4/5 Brujah were huge for getting away from EuroBrujah), but why not make Cam decks without Princes, Justicars, or Inner Circle more viable/interesting? One more, the 60 card sets, with the exception of Twilight Rebellion were awful. Too narrow, rarity problems were exacerbated, didn't address needs well enough. Traveller Card Game

> I've got a MtG Judge for a friend (and I know his soul needs saving but he's enjoying his sins too much)... he openly admits to be competitive in MtG you need a deck built on rares. It might take him a little to put it so openly, but that aspect of MtG has not changed and will not while MtG's design model places greater raw power on cards with increased rarity. > VTES has not really been like that. Increased rarity usually means increased specialist roles or greater opportunity costs. So stop tossing around that little straw-man. > Nowhere in my post am I saying that you can get competitive in MtG cheap. Nowhere. What I'm saying is that MtG is *significantly easier* to pick up than VTES ever was and that with a relatively small investment you get to play a multitude of reasonably good decks. As such, someone can enter a store, spend $100, sit down for 15 minutes with a vet and play a fun game. Compare this to VTES, where a starterdeck dislay investment (comparable to 2 fat packs and ~10 extra boosters) will get you maybe 3 playable decks. Boosters are completely useless for "improving your deck" because there are too many disciplines and clans. I can't advice someone "ye just get a Brujah starter and mix in 4-5 booster packs and you get to play a few decks to get the hang of the game" because the 4-5 boosters are basically dead cards. Also, most big pro-tour winning decks can be ordered, card-for-card, online for between $40 and $125, so it's not like you need to spends thousands of dollars to win games. You could set aside $1000 a year (less than $100 per months, which is pretty reasonable for a hobby) and be among the top competitors as far as your deck goes. I realize that VTES is probably cheaper to maintain and be competitive in, but that assumes people are getting involved in VTES in the first place, which is not happening on a large scale and hasn't been in years.

@Izaak: If you have a solution other than "rewrite VTES" on how to do that... I'm sure there a plenty of Princes who would be interested to read those ideas. If your ideas are basically "you all suck" then I don't think much else you write beyond that will get listened to. If you don't think your Prince is doing enough of a job to expand the playgroup or keep it alive, then step up and put your deeds behind your words and help out your local Prince. If you don't have a local Prince, then step up and do the job and show us all how it is done better. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> edminister wrote: > Another thing is the music quotes on the original Jyhad cards... I am assuming that was a legal issue when it was changed, if it wasn't bring it back. > Legal issue indeed. AFAIK no one bothered to ask the copyright owners if their material could be used in the quotes and for what compensation. Which is kinda bad, eh... ? > ICL wrote: > but how about a Camarilla set that actually expands library cards for Camarilla decks to a significant degree? For those who read my blog, they might remember my noting just how few Camarilla allies there are in the game. Also, Primogen cards, Camarilla sect requiring cards that have nothing to do with titles or clans, etc. The argument that the Camarilla has always been plenty powerful just doesn't wash. > I've been bitching about this for ages. Compared to, say, Sabbat or Black hand, there seems to be precious few and mostly wallpaper cards that are available for general member of Camarilla. IIRC the need for new Camarilla cards has most often been countered with four words: Party Shift + 2nd Tradition. Sure extremely powerful cards but rather limiting dontcha think? Finnish Politics!

More importantly, people should understand that VtES does not try to be the most popular game in the world. I am very happy to play large public game like, say, Diablo III, and I am very happy to play elitist game that appeal to very precises tastes of mine like VtES and complex boardgames. I also fully believe that VtES will fade each year a tiny bit more into obscurity. It happen to most (all ?) games and we are here to enjoy the hobby now, not to fight the windmill that VtES is an eternal game that should be transmitted to our sons and daugthers.

> Soonerborn wrote: > All us old 'Mr Suitcases' aren't interested in buying reprints anyway. Two of the local longtime players were dissappointed by the prospect of buying printed cards again, they were looking forward to the (free) PDF. Probably won't buy the new set (and certainly won't buy reprinted cards). > Just out of curiosity, are these same guys who didn't buy KoT when it was available? And who started yelling afoul when the set sold out and prices of the new and powerful cards began rising? Finnish Politics!

If you reprint the whole sets, from jyhad to HTTB everybody will be happy.

I agree with Izaak here. Let me tell you of my experience with M:tG, plus my frustrations at embracing new V:TES players. I played Magic more than a decade ago; I was there when Pro Tours started becoming really professional and card production went into overdrive. Competitive decks at every format often cost hundreds or thousands. Like some of us here, I quit because I couldn't keep up with the glut. A couple of weeks ago, a friend pestered me into trying it out again. A nearby store held a Sealed Pack 3-round competition, where you'd get a random booster of 15 cards which you'd shuffle in 15 lands and played it. You didn't even get to see the cards before you started playing. If you won against an opponent (best out of 3), you'd get another pack and now you can use the cards to build a 40 card deck. I've been playing V:TES for nearly 5 years now and had this disdain against V:TES's popular older brother. But I was blown away by how FUN and easy to pick up M:tG was. I was extremely rusty but after a few turns I re-understood the game. From my M:tG newbie's perspective, Magic had clear and relatively straightforward rules, card text was easily understood, there were fun and flashy effects. Deck construction was easy even with the card pool of 3 boosters and a bunch of land. I felt empowered and even in games when I got crushed, I still felt I accomplished something. Sealed and Draft formats, plus those "fat packs" that others mentioned, make it extremely affordable for the casual player to buy in, and play. Some folks talked about complexity in games and how V:TES is complex. I agree; I enjoy the challenge in V:TES compared to many other games. But this isn't a dichotomy. Why should V:TES not be easy to pick up? I've tried to introduce V:TES to my adult boardgaming friends but it was always frustrating. I've built newbie-friendly decks, I've summarized the rules into 1 letter-sized page, I've talked to them about the rich history of the game. Their experiences have been that V:TES is convoluted, resulting in slow games that are not fun. Or they make a mistake and get run over roughshod. The points of this neonate's ramblings are these. If we want to keep V:TES alive, we need to both retain the vets and attract new players. Re-printing clutch cards like Deep Song or Dreams; and selling viable pre-con starters viable for immediate play are essential for now. Further down the line, if proper expansions are considered, a re-working of the card distribution in the boosters has to be done to reduce the whole buy 4-5 packs and only get 1 card for your deck problem. But we really have to talk about re-doing the rules to make V:TES more fun. Note that i'm not saying that we should just simplify the game willy-nilly. There must be ways to let players, especially the new ones, get the sense of doing exciting stuff that matters in the game. I don't know how, and I'm even less sure if I've even made a persuasive case for it, but I love this V:TES and want to see it flourish, even if it means radically changing it.

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > @Izaak: If you have a solution other than "rewrite VTES" on how to do that... I'm sure there a plenty of Princes who would be interested to read those ideas. If your ideas are basically "you all suck" then I don't think much else you write beyond that will get listened to. > Ya know, if that's your response what I've been trying to explain in length then I have two words for you that I for once won't post here for the sake of saving someone some moderation work, I'll just say that your posts makes no sense whatsoever in the given context of me explaining why Magic is actually easy to pick up and VTES isn't and that if anything, it was your English teacher that sucked at teaching you to read.

> ShadowCat wrote: > Why should V:TES not be easy to pick up? I've tried to introduce V:TES to my adult boardgaming friends but it was always frustrating. I've built newbie-friendly decks, I've summarized the rules into 1 letter-sized page, I've talked to them about the rich history of the game. > A new game that would be easier to pick up than VtES and share a fair bit of its quality is possible. Radically altering VtES to try and fail to fill thoses goal seem foolish to me. Some game are good despite being frustratingly hard to get an hold of. Diplomacy, and the lesser known Ora&Labora and Caelus are in that. They are not superior because of that, but there is no reason to try to make every game something extremely easy, fun, and rewarding to start.

Magic - 4 Land types... VTES - 35 disciplines (including the imbued stuff) plus 2 sort of disciplines... I don't even bother to put the clans and the max number of disciplines you will find in a vampire... So, when you open a booster from MtG you will get cards that you actually can use... you have a great chance of getting something from each land type... when you open a booster from vtes is quite more complicated... you might get cards that the vampires in the pack can use or not... Imagine a booster from 3rd... you open it and get 3 lasombras... but you only got cards with ani, tha or cel... If you mix sets, like 3rd with FN, BL or HTTB then the thing is even more complicated... you can always mix stuff with MtG. The problem here is math combinations, and VTES will never be MtG.

> wesile wrote: > The problem here is math combinations, and VTES will never be MtG. > L5R is doing fine and had up to 14 clan (only 9 now IIRC). It's one of the factor, and it is far from being the whole deal.

Thats true, l5r does have a lot of combinations but still its not as many as VTES. Most actions/spells/kiho/reactions are general use and most clans can tend to use most cards so long as they fulfill some requirement (eg samurai, shugenja, monk etc.) VTES is a lot more complex in its combinations.

> wesile wrote: > Magic - 4 Land types... > The problem here is math combinations, and VTES will never be MtG. > Yea, it's the problem. But it's quite solvable - we need smth like “clan boosters” which contains only vamps from this clan + clan discipline cards + some generic cards Or “politics/combat/bleed/steals” or other method to narrow card spread in boosters. For new players what we really need – several playable “as is” starters. By now it’s really hard to start playing without contacts with established playgroup. NC Russia

> wesile wrote: > Magic - 4 Land types... > VTES - 35 disciplines (including the imbued stuff) plus 2 sort of disciplines... > > So, when you open a booster from MtG you will get cards that you actually can use... you have a great chance of getting something from each land type... when you open a booster from vtes is quite more complicated... you might get cards that the vampires in the pack can use or not... > On that note, why not offer boosters for particular clans or disciplines? Logistically it may provide some headaches — but this topic's well into blue sky territory any how. It all really does depends on the capabilities of print of demand — what's feasible and what's not. Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook

IMHO we should start to create draft effects for the older cards...

> wesile wrote: > Magic - 4 Land types... > Yes - Swamp, Plains, Forest and Parking lot. Of course. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

Swamp, Plains, Forest and Mountains... as far as I remember.... Sorry... 5 land types... islands... Black, red, blue, white and green...

No we all bought KoT (I have an entire box of KoT starters still unopened to give away to prospective new players in fact). The two guys who sold their collections - both the guys who sold their collections came onbaord during CE (back then I was the Prince of Dallas and demoing all the cons with CE starters). One guy in particular has the largest VTES collection I've ever seen (I have ~35K cards - all sets and his stock drawfs mine - I don't know how many cards he actually has). He just simply doesn't want to put any more money into a dead hobby. There is no set he doesn't have. Same goes for me; no expansion was ever printed that I didn't buy at least 2 boxes of boosters and a box of starters (but much much more in some sets). I mean how many blood dolls should people be expected to pay for? Retail distribution involves large production costs. We could all go on a length about some of the distrubtion frustrations that brought about but at the end of the day we could at least understand to a point. The cards had to be printed in fairly large numbers. Print on Demand should be just that; on demand. If nothing gets printed until it's ordered, why force veterans to pay for cards they don't want (i.e. not in demand)? But what I'm asking for, what a lot of people are asking for; is to make cards readily available for new players. We actively recruit players where i live, we have to. People move away, people quit, whatever. We have 3 guys right now that are deck borrowers and a couple more the we think would play if they could acquire cards CHEAPLY. Not everybody is a speculative collector. At the core is a great game, people play it, hopefully for enjoyment... If these new guys could get playable decks, cards they actually want to play, then there's money to be made. But trying to fire up a retail style distrubiton through a POD model, I just don't see how that benefits new or old players. Maybe just the kids that joined in the last two sets and want old cards or something. We had 2 guys that joined right before KoT, one sold everything when the game went out of print and the other stopped showing up for games. I think he was frustrated (like a lot of players posting here) that he didn't have access to certain stuff. How much should he have to spend, how many unwanted cards should he be forced to buy, to get the handful of cards he would actually use? Is it about keeping players like this? Or is it about keeping card prices inflated?

^^^ in response to this post below > Lönkka wrote: > > > Soonerborn wrote: > > All us old 'Mr Suitcases' aren't interested in buying reprints anyway. Two of the local longtime players were dissappointed by the prospect of buying printed cards again, they were looking forward to the (free) PDF. Probably won't buy the new set (and certainly won't buy reprinted cards). > > > Just out of curiosity, are these same guys who didn't buy KoT when it was available? And who started yelling afoul when the set sold out and prices of the new and powerful cards began rising? >

There are too many clans and too many disciplines. But, I think the expectation was that you either play everything, like a lot of us do, or you trade away stuff you don't want for stuff that you do want. Not saying that's a good model, but it's a model that allows you to draw upon the tremendous variety in the source material. But, even when there were seven clans, Caitiff, and 10 disciplines, there were problems with building decks. It has always, since day one, been an issue to have the right mix of cards you want. What problems? Blood Doll and WWEF. Without those two cards, you were screwed. Sure, they were commons ... in 300+ card sets. Now, because Jyhad was so cheap, people like me got enough of those two cards, but think about what happens if you reboot the game exactly as it was produced historically except you don't have $5-$10 Jyhad boxes. New player goes to buy random starters and boosters, buys a couple of boxes, gets, say, five Blood Dolls and five Wakes. How many Jyhad-only decks are now viable? Then, DS and AH get published with neither of those cards. Then, Sabbat gets published and we get more Blood Dolls, yeah! And, ... we get Forced Awakenings, boo! The move to go to precons did address a massive problem with deck construction in the game - the need for copious quantities of staple cards. Even Freak Drive has been printed so many times in precons that if you just bought precons, you should have enough for normal decks. Of course, precons didn't do enough of bringing the most essential cards to new players - every deck should have started with five or six Blood Dolls/Minion Taps and six WWEFs. Every deck with Auspex should have had at least six Telepathic Misdirections. Every deck with Dominate should have had at least six Deflections. To forestall the argument that providing playable decks undermines sales, two things. One, if people don't think you can play the game with a reasonable number of cards bought, which is the primary argument of many posting in this thread, then you lost any sales to those people. Two, you don't want to encourage people to buy starters. Starters don't make money, boosters do. Sure, you could leave staple cards out and make them commons in some 300 card set to encourage booster sales over starter sales, but then, you run into the first problem - zero sales because people give up. It is a balancing act, of course. The idea that a company should just sell you whatever you want for a modest fee seems completely unprofitable for the company and, really, the company isn't offering anything that players couldn't just do on their own. Or, if you see the company still being necessary for design, why would I design cards where I'm selling everything someone wants from the set for $30? There are many ways you can compare and contrast with Magic, but I think most germane at the moment is that Magic is a game you can leave for a while and go back to. Limited play is huge, so if you wanted a trivial monetary investment, you can just play limited. You can invest in the current standard environment or block constructed, though the latter is kind of questionable valuewise. V:TES isn't alone in being a CCG where you want certain cards from every set. It's a very challenging model to have to keep up with a game forever to where the game tends towards diehards and minimal influx of new players. Traveller Card Game

> Soonerborn wrote: > He just simply doesn't want to put any more money into a dead hobby. > This is totally relative to your perspective. I'd hardly call this a dead hobby. But not vigorously alive either... > Soonerborn wrote: > Print on Demand should be just that; on demand. If nothing gets printed until it's ordered, why force veterans to pay for cards they don't want (i.e. not in demand)? > Indeed so. This also applies to other players than just veterans. Finnish Politics!

My daughter plays... she's 12 and really likes to punch things. She made her first deck a few months ago and when I went to put together some combat deck I was like "Where are my decapitates?" I flipped through her deck and she had no less than 9 of them in there with twice as many rushes( all of my deep songs), 3 fames, 4 helicopters, some rats, tastes, signposts, grapples, frenzies and whatnot. A crypt full of Nossies to go with the library and I was just like... who built this?!?! She had been using stealth bleed decks others had made up until that point and evidently had gotten tired of the occasional wall she came across. Learning curve my ass. She learned by watching others, getting beat up sometimes teaches valuable lessons. Bleeding through three other players retained the interest. I did have to discuss table hate and balancing brutality with hope for your prey. We also talked some about how a deck like that would affect her grand prey and she was like "I don't have to just rush my prey." I do like the idea of more focused boosters for new players though, clans would be a massive pain unless it were packs focused on 4 clans apiece or disciplines maybe 5 apiece. The Heirs starters are close to perfect in this regard, multiple clans, decent spread of powerful cards, the only reason they're so damned expensive is that the timing coincided with the end of printing and that compared to previous starters they were a huge step up. (the KoT Ventrue deck was no slouch though, I played it straight out of the box a few times in our group and it fared well) As far as smaller sets go, the problem with those is the ration of rares to commons. I can't justify buying boxes for the smaller sets to get a half dozen cards. 19 card packs have been done before, 3r, 5u, 3v, 8c would rock. Larger sets could be distributed differently as well, 3-4 clans at a time, instead of one booster box per set, have three, same with starters.

> Lönkka wrote: > This is totally relative to your perspective. > I'd hardly call this a dead hobby. > But not vigorously alive either... > Undead, perhaps?

A dead hobby from HIS perspective. I'm still trying to keep the playgroup active. Hell the guy I'm talking about still plays with us, he's just shifted his focus to other gaming interests. He's also selling off his copies of Enkil Cog (and others). But I think you misunderstand me. The point I'm trying to make is that longtime veterans are (generally speaking) not your primary market for reprints. New(er) players are, be it guys we've recently recruited (deck borrowers) or the guys who joined within the last few sets (who are frustrated that there are so many cards that are effectively out of their reach). It's always been a maxim of vtes that if your group isn't growing, it's dying. We're certainly proof of that, our group is the smallest it's been since '02. We're not able to replace the players we lose anymore. Player attrition has *always* been a reality but for the past 10 years we were always able to actively recruit new players. We still get prospects we just can't keep them. And the guys who entered within the last 3 or 4 sets seldom show up for games now out of futility (who wants to always play the same decks?). What I'm asking for is to allow all players the ability to choose which cards they acquire based on production costs. Not a bogus sense of 'rarity'. Let the players decide what is junk and what is worth having. Let them go to the sight, design a deck and get it printed. In short a BETTER method for card acquisition. If we're really talking about keeping and retaining active player bases. If this is really about keeping the game alive. It was when it was just the vekn doing it for nothing, right? And I don't think anybody is saying POD will bring in 'a lot' of players, I don't recall anything ever brining in 'a lot' of players. But ANY are better than NONE, can we agree?

> BenPeal wrote: > > > Lönkka wrote: > > This is totally relative to your perspective. > > I'd hardly call this a dead hobby. > > But not vigorously alive either... > > > Undead, perhaps? > Argh! It's the Zombie-pocalypse!! Who here has ??? They're clearly to blame! Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

I was thinking of discipline based boosters: 15 or 20 cards, all POT for instance. Maybe one of each or it could be one of a few and two or three of others if you wanted a rarity system. Do the same think with Vampires with booster packs by grouping and include some clan specific cards. There would be a few choices for each booster pack so buy them all and have every card of that discipline or Clan. I guess some master packs and disciplineless card packs too (combat, allies, votes, equipment). I don't see the need for anything random. And Hunter packs of course. David Tatu V:EKN Scribe

i'm still skeptical on full print on demand being economically feasible. That's a huge number of cards/plates to maintain with no sure orders for 90% of the cards. on discipline/clan boosters, it'd be really nice. however, without a kickstarter to count how many orders for each clan/discipline, we won't know how much to print. and in that case, someone has to take the brunt and store inventory. just hope that somebody buys it sooner or later. if we go by the lcq route, we'd still have the problem of specific clan/discipline packs not being available when a new player comes in when it's not in print cycle. anyways, here're my long shot suggestions: 1. for VtES 5th Ed, print non-bloodline discipline cards in its most basic forms. eg. Bleed for Dom/Dem, Stealth for Obf, Intercept for Aus, etc. Print Vampire with Capacities from 4-7 only. add a few generic allies, masters, retainers, and weapons. a box or 2 will get you a complete set of everything with necessary numbers. 2. Release expansions that add the clans, the weenies, then the fatties, then weapons, then disciplines in chapter packs. there are better people that can describe this. haha. 3. for the love of the game, remove antitribu. 4. can we do anything about the current stock of unopened boosters and starters? re-purpose them to usable starter decks, and throw out the garbage? maybe hold a contest to create decks from the remaining inventory and kickstarter the orders before opening up the boxes? .02

> edminister wrote: > My daughter plays... she's 12 and really likes to punch things. > Ah! The new generation is coming! Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> jtroyve wrote: > 3. for the love of the game, remove antitribu. > To be honest, I believe this is a bad idea. I love to keep antitribu and tribu different gameplay-wise, and if we try to keep them apart gameplay-wise, then it is much less confusing to keep them as separate clan. Also, it make mixed sabbat / camarilla deck harder to use, which is better in my opinion. Lastly, even if they were no trouble doing this, this fringe into the "sake for change's sake" territory for me.

Guys, you are misunderstanding the economy of the CCG. In such small volumes as expected for VTES if you’ll drop the “ridiculous need to buy boxes of boosters”, then you’ll have to significantly raise the price of starters/boxes with good cards/other “value suggestions” just to cover costs. So for the new players it became even harder to join the game – more money for the starter and no spare commons from friends. NC Russia

> jtroyve wrote: > 3. for the love of the game, remove antitribu. > Yeah, narrow down the selection even more, geat idea.... The antitribus are one of the best in the game and the core of the sabbat. Why would it be a good idea to remove them? (seriously, it isn't, I'm just curious...)

Poci: I think the idea is to merge the normal into the antitribu. The antitribu become "Sabbat XYZ". For example, Brujah antitribu just become "Brujah" with Sabbat sect listed. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Poci wrote: > Yeah, narrow down the selection even more, geat idea.... The antitribus are one of the best in the game and the core of the sabbat. Why would it be a good idea to remove them? (seriously, it isn't, I'm just curious...) > You have misunderstood him. He want to make all !brujah sabbat brujah instead of being a different clan. It would remove nothing ; it would only lead to tons of errata and confusion.

> david.tatu wrote: > And Hunter packs of course. > Yeah! Take back the night! Finnish Politics!

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > Poci wrote: > > Yeah, narrow down the selection even more, geat idea.... The antitribus are one of the best in the game and the core of the sabbat. Why would it be a good idea to remove them? (seriously, it isn't, I'm just curious...) > > > You have misunderstood him. He want to make all !brujah sabbat brujah instead of being a different clan. It would remove nothing ; it would only lead to tons of errata and confusion. > Yeah, it'd lead to lot of errata. The diversity is the best in this game. It's always goood to have many options not just a few which you can choose from. I've never seen any problem with the antitribus, they are separate clans with different options. What's the problem?

> Poci wrote: > Yeah, it'd lead to lot of errata. The diversity is the best in this game. It's always goood to have many options not just a few which you can choose from. I've never seen any problem with the antitribus, they are separate clans with different options. What's the problem? > it's not a problem exactly but it was a mistake by WotC as the'yre not separate clans - there are 13 major clans in the wod andthe antitribus are just antribius not separate clans (see ravnos, assamite and fos and done by LSJ).

Not saying we remove the difference between tremere and tremere anti. just make it tremere cam and tremere sabbat. Only cam will have access to chantry, while sabbat to nephandus. this way it'd be simpler to explain. Gianggazello is one example. he's camarilla but he can use lasombra resources? correct me if im wrong. There will be no other change. sabbat nos will still have better discipline spreads than cam nos, who will have bette titles. Of course, this is just a suggestion. and not even an original one. i think i read this back in pathofblood or the newsgroup.

> jtroyve wrote: > Not saying we remove the difference between tremere and tremere anti. just make it tremere cam and tremere sabbat. Only cam will have access to chantry, while sabbat to nephandus. this way it'd be simpler to explain. > I find it more simple to treat them as separate clans, just as True Brujah and Brujah is not the same clan. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> jtroyve wrote: > Not saying we remove the difference between tremere and tremere anti. just make it tremere cam and tremere sabbat. Only cam will have access to chantry, while sabbat to nephandus. this way it'd be simpler to explain. > Well, there will be two consequence for me : * more confusion, since they would be a massive number of errata, no more different icon for antitribu and camarilla * easier camarilla / sabbat mixing, since for example you could con boon across the camarilla / sabbat rift ; that, or significant nerf to anarch, since if you add sect to con boon anarch con boon will not catch camarilla member and vice versa. That's why I am less then thrilled by that. For me it's a false good idea. > jtroyve wrote: > Gianggazello is one example. he's camarilla but he can use lasombra resources? correct me if im wrong. > Yes, and the same for assamite and !assamite. Assamite is somewhat justified in that !assamite are not that cut from the main clan. Gianggazello seem to be lasombra camarilla instead of !lasombra for simplicity.

I find it irrational that anti malks can't act thru madness network when their only vtm difference from the original clan is an additional derangement upon character creation. but, the game had had seperate clans for sabbat since the sect was added to the game, so its pretty embedded at this point. the anti ventrue and city gangrel are in fact so different than the cam clans that it makes perfect sense. but even as wall enthusiast, I don't think the clans should merge, but I do think that both nos and anti nos should has the same clan cards availible, since they are moreconcerned with being nos and watching for the nictuku than seperate based on sect in most cases in the Canon. saucy as the antitribu bugged me initially as a vtm player when I started playing vtes, it makes sense for vtes even if it does mean 15 clans identified by disciplines instead.of just 13 due to gangrel and ventrue in sabbat not matching their parent clan. for which I'm very thankful in the case of anti ventrue. with anti ravnos and assamites it would add a whole unsupported bloodline and clutter up even more design space for no.reason if they were seperate.

Yes bu anti ventrue different discpline mix is also and error (though a wod error)

Anyway if you were going to reboot parts of the game antitribu is one you probably would do if you wanted to fix to wod (rather than canon per se) (it was also WW designer intent that it go but not possible to do post Sabbat). More keywords might be another less mechanics could be another I don't think any of these are likely to happen with a POD set as it'll be about doing things in a relatively quick fashion without a lot of redesign.

> Squidalot wrote: > Yes bu anti ventrue different discpline mix is also and error (though a wod error) > ooh? care to elaborate? so the intent was to for venture and !ventrue to have DOM FOR PRE? where did it go wrong? (sorry if i digress)

As an unrelated side note, I find the World of darkness more interesting lore wise with AUS FOR DOM !ventrue, because it fit so much better with the whole knight and lord thing. Historically, I have been told this was so that bloodline have a matching clan, like every other functional bloodline

Didnt the anti ventrue derive from the Knights of Blood, who emphasized more on Combat and perceiveing the truth oposed to the normal Ventrue who use Presence and Domiate to manipulate kine and kindred. - Prince of Karlsruhe, Germany

As far as I'm concerned what's done is done with the antitribu. Besides the confusion (and there would be plenty) those clans crypts would be huge (relative to Setites, Lasombra, Assamites, etc.) if you 'merged' the cam with their sabbat counterparts into a single clan. I understand the sentiment but IMO it's too late, too many cards have been printed for the separate clans. This is from Drive Thru Cards, "Card Game Designers - Card game creators will be able to offer their card games as digital downloads (for print-and-play) and as premium-quality cards printed on demand and shipped to customers as they order." Granted it's not up and running yet but I would very much like to know if anybody has any real insight into the process they intend to use? I'm assuming it's digital print onto card stock as opposed to full-plate offset 4-color press process based on the above. That would avoid large (speculative) print runs and the need to stock product. "On demand." The downside to the consumer is higher cost per unit printed due to smaller print volume and a more expensive process. The upside to the consumer should be the 'on demand' part; the buyer selects the cards they purchase. At that point you're talking pricing models. X cost per single and per-unit discounts for larger orders ostensibly. Which is why I keep going back to 102 cards (one legal deck). I think it would be very fan friendly to allow players to build their collections deck by deck. Hell I'd make that the minimum order (depending on base unit cost I suppose). For limited play you could have somebody (i.e. Benny) design VEKN sanctioned draft kits that could be mixed and matched for sanctioned drafts. Those would be fairly large and should incur some discount ideally. But it should all be production cost driven. Of course if we are talking plates and offset print then I agree with clan and/or discipline specific packages. I'd really like to see HttB quality precons designed for every clan for the newbs to get started. At least one per clan but that could be fleshed out quite a bit. It would be really helpful if we could send new players to a sight where they could come away with 2 or 3 playable decks for less than $100.

> jtroyve wrote: > i'm still skeptical on full print on demand being economically feasible. That's a huge number of cards/plates to maintain with no sure orders for 90% of the cards. > It would need to be printed digitally, which isn't much of an issue in terms of quality and the system would also need to be automated in a similar fashion to what the guys and Lotus Noir do for proxy PDFs — but better quality. A quick scan of the consumer sites suggest feasibility. For example 108 individual custom cards costs $9.24 from here www.superiorpod.com/product/poker-size-custom-card-decks — costs would be much lower if you have a direct relationship, high volume or similar. I'd definitely pay upwards of $15 for a deck of what ever cards I choose. As a bonus, those of us who play optimised decks would save 30% — 60 cards vs 90! sweet... Ke Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook

> Ke. wrote: > (...) > It indeed appears to be viable. A five-minute search took me to a BGG thread: "Print-on-demand card games?" ; the first link there is this , which has a lot of info on various topics: Manufacturers of Games Parts, Cards and Boxes Game Makers for Your Whole Game Distributors Art and Graphics Resources Other Useful Sources of Information And there are some others that this site doesn't even cover, but that have been mentioned in the BGG thread, such as Guild of Blades . "Base pricing is $.075 per card", which is excellent; but "We have a minimum order of 25 card sets [set = 9 cards] for the first run of any project. By having this minimum, we avoid the need for any set up costs for a project. Once a project has been printed at least once with us, if you have no file changes, any future print runs only have a minimum run requirement of just 10 decks" [Source: gobretail.com/podcards-pricing.php] It doesn't do exactly what I mentioned in earlier posts, but suggests that POD models can be reasonably successful.

> Soonerborn wrote: > It would be really helpful if we could send new players to a site where they could come away with 2 or 3 playable decks for less than $100. > Done. Rose Tatu Productions Walch & Nusser Plus: Atomweaver's Deck Bashing Challenge Specifically: Black Hand Starter Display Solution Some of the best vampires in the game are in those starters, which are still plentiful, and some of the best library cards as well. If you made 2-3 decks instead of 4, you'd have solid decks for those clans. Other starter displays that have more duplication of vampires are more of a challenge, of course.

> Adonai wrote: > > Done. > Rose Tatu Productions > Walch & Nusser > that was why i suggested re-purposing unsold boxes. these sellers would get burned with unwanted inventory. however, the effort and the cost of re-purposing these might be more costly.

A little feedback. I have organized a little poll on a Czech VTES forum regarding their preferences for the format of the (possible) resurrection of the game. Here are the results: I would like to keep the game as it was (= boosters, PCD's) 12 like. I would like the combination of boosters-PCD's-POD - 4 don't like, 6 like. I would prefer just the POD - 8 don't like, 3 like. N.B. that the players could vote for each of the three category, liking or disliking it. So about 12 players in total. Though this doesn't say much, more polls of the kind could be made to see the actual preferences of the players. "I like to think there always are ...possibilities." Spock

> Adonai wrote: > > > Soonerborn wrote: > > It would be really helpful if we could send new players to a site where they could come away with 2 or 3 playable decks for less than $100. > > > Done. > Rose Tatu Productions > Walch & Nusser > > Plus: > Atomweaver's Deck Bashing Challenge > Specifically: > Black Hand Starter Display Solution > > Some of the best vampires in the game are in those starters, which are still plentiful, and some of the best library cards as well. If you made 2-3 decks instead of 4, you'd have solid decks for those clans. > > Other starter displays that have more duplication of vampires are more of a challenge, of course. > LOL I walked right into that, touche sir. What I should’ve said is that I’d like to be able to recruit players without the barrier of ~$100 investment… I mentioned that I give new players unopened starters to get them going but then what? What you've said it true, some great cards are available for some clans. There's a lot of less-than-great (generous) stuff there too, just sayin'. I've recommended RTP to several people and at least a couple of folks have ordered from them. It's tough knowing that no matter what you recommend (especially now that 3rd is gone) there's going to be a bunch of every-deck type stuff they're not going to get. We do what we can, give out blood dolls and wakes, etc. I do think it’s tremendous what RTP and W/N are doing, I recognize it’s practically altruism at this point. My hat’s off to them, honestly, but there’s a reason why what’s left is what's left… I’m just sayin’, at this point in the game’s life cycle, I’m just not seeing much downside in allowing people to design a deck and have it digitally printed for $15 or $20. That’s taking full advantage of ‘print on demand’ IMO. I have no issue with marking the cards or whatever to differentiate FWIW. I just want it to be much easier and cheaper for people to play the way they want to play. I feel like my cards are worthless without players. But OK apparently I’m being short-sighted in my no-love attitude for the CCG business model. OK I hated it, I often felt like my love for the game was ruthlessly exploited, there I said it. I payed for tons of bad cards and tons of reprints to get the good stuff. We all did. So at the very least let's have something comparable to the HttB starters spread over a bunch of clans/themes/etc. Apparently people like to play Camarilla (don’t ask me). Or like some others’ have suggested clan & discipline based pre-set packages. Something that allows people to acquire what they actually want to play relatively inexpensively. Why not take advantage of a POD model? OK speaking of HttB here’s a little anecdote: (LOL @ me) I mailed a set of the 4 HttB starters to my buddy in Kansas. This was one of the guys I learned to play jyhad with in college in ’94 - he sold all his cards (for what seemed like a ridiculous amount of money at the time) right before bloodlines was printed because he needed the $ (it happens). His plan was to teach his girl and some buddies to play, you know, get a group started. So he asked me for some help. I had just bought this box of HttB starters and they were *so* good that I felt like this was the best thing I could send him so he could get a game going right away. So I mailed them to him, no biggie. And I'm telling you it wasn't 2 weeks later I went to order another box of those starters... who knew?

Maybe a Kickstarter program would be a good way to raze the money to get the game going again. CCG LCG PDF Print-on-demand Whatever, but at least “they” will have the money to edit all the cards and stuff, maybe even buy out the licence, but I doubt that.

Don't worry about trying to run a Kickstarter. Johannes is currently trying to negotiate to get the game printed as a Print-on-Demand. So, you can probably assume, he's already got enough funds together to start it off (or thinks he can gain the funding required). Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

My thought would be $100.00 or $150.00 per set where you can print out an unlimited amount of cards.

Im not sure about unlimited. Perhaps with each new set, our POD company could offer a full set at one price, then remove a certain percent for lets say 5x every vampire and 8 of every library card. Im really looking forward to the new options pod offers the game as a whole.

Here's my proposal. Print on demand custom decks, like some have suggested. But each deck is restricted to exactly 12 vampires, X amount of cards that were rares/non-vampire uncommons, let's say 6? (seems like a good number to me) and the rest of the deck must be composed of commons. Then, not only do you have a viable way for people to pick up cards, you have a potential new tournament format ready to go as well - where people can literally just order up a deck optimized for that format that's 100% ready to go, straight out of the box. I think this might breathe some fresh air into the game and force people to be creative!

While thats viable for a product, i would not like limitations like that imposed. Its illogical. Having a minimum order quantity makes sense, or other production related logic limitations, but limitations on custom precons doesnt seem practical. Even precons should be whatever you custom order, and maybe vekn designedones can have limitations and possibly be cheaper. But POD is probably going to cost a bit, i see no reason to charge more and offer less.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > While thats viable for a product, i would not like limitations like that imposed. Its illogical. Having a minimum order quantity makes sense, or other production related logic limitations, but limitations on custom precons doesnt seem practical. > > Even precons should be whatever you custom order, and maybe vekn designedones can have limitations and possibly be cheaper. But POD is probably going to cost a bit, i see no reason to charge more and offer less. > Whether you are paying for 100 "rare" cards or 100 "common" cards, or a mix thereof, you are paying for 100 cards. Having limitations to the cards in a started deck would allow for two things: 1) Helps with card ratios, (ideally based on card function and power level) 2) Allows for "starter" deck tournaments/competition. You are not paying more for less as you suggest. Limitations on "starter" decks is different than limitations on "a la carte" purchasing. If such ratios were to be enforced for "a la carte" purchasing, or if cards were purchased in a set with set ratios, those are two different discussions. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

Limiting to only 6 rares would be pretty bad, as most of the time the rares are the only things people need, and what about uncommons? Your post didn't say anything about those, uncommons not allowed in the decks? I personally think people should be allowed to order whatever cards they want, the cost for printing is just the same anyway, whether its commons or rares.

> Klaital wrote: > Limiting to only 6 rares would be pretty bad, as most of the time the rares are the only things people need, and what about uncommons? Your post didn't say anything about those, uncommons not allowed in the decks? I personally think people should be allowed to order whatever cards they want, the cost for printing is just the same anyway, whether its commons or rares. > If we are talking print-on-demand, then we really need to talk about something other than "rarity." The only way we can continue to achieve "rarity" with print on demand is to enforce strict ratios of cards printed, and/or continue doing random boosters. I would hate to see this happen. Presumably we will be paying a higher cost per card. What it will come down to is that players will buy cards to get the "rares" and then sell the "commons" to recoup some of the costs. Maybe some new players will buy cards and sell the rares to older players who don't need the "commons." Either way the game suffers, and the printer makes less money, and more cards are printed than are needed/wanted. Less wasted cards is a good thing. Print on Demand should give players the opportunity to buy cards with no waste, no wallpaper. "Starter" decks should have ratios. It makes sense. But if "a la carte" card buying is an option, let someone buy 100 Enkil Cogs. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

Starters are starters = for those who start. Beginners don't want and don't need POD: how could someone build his own deck before learning how to play? They need fixed lists and those lists need to be quite toolboxy because they are buillt for people who don't know yet what they want to play. Therefore the question of card ratios is moot: when you design a Tzimisce starter, you don't make it a Piper/War Ghoul. Not because of the number of rares, but because it is too narrow to reflect the gameplay of the clan.

> Non-existant user wrote: > Starters are starters = for those who start. Beginners don't want and don't need POD: how could someone build his own deck before learning how to play? They need fixed lists and those lists need to be quite toolboxy because they are buillt for people who don't know yet what they want to play. Therefore the question of card ratios is moot: when you design a Tzimisce starter, you don't make it a Piper/War Ghoul. Not because of the number of rares, but because it is too narrow to reflect the gameplay of the clan. > I agree engtirely. But the tzimitze of all clans are very diverse, and it would be a crying shame to deny new plahers a war ghoul, breath of the dragon,horrid forms, deep songs, eyes of argus, abbots, etc. In fact, things lile abbot, eyes of argus, and deep song should be in every deck they make sense for. Virtually every animalism combat deck benefits from deepsong, and auspex wall benefits from eyes, and any sabbat blocking deck can gain crom abbot, be it tzimitze, !ventrue, !salubri, or harbingers. But again, limitations on said starters would be hurtful. There is no reason why a tremere starter shouldnt have multiple magic of the smith, or why a ventrue starter cant have 4 freak drives, an awe, a parity shift, entrancement, 3 deflections and a perfect paragon. It makes sense, and demonstrates what the clan the newbie pays for can do. Thats part of the purpose of starters. If the giovanni and lasombra both have mind rape and preturnatural strength, cool, its within thier purview. No reason to have a !gangrel starter have 6 agent of power, 5 summon history, ankara citadel, remnant of the endless storm and sword of nuln (even if they do kinda suck, and that being their starter is a funny joke) but starters should show a new player what a clan does, or an archtype, since a wide range can potentially be selectable. Not just show them what a clan does with 6 key rares and some commons. Unless its dom obf malk94 or something that only needs that.

15 freakdrives UDHR18/19/27

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > > > Non-existant user wrote: > > > > But again, limitations on said starters would be hurtful. There is no reason why a tremere starter shouldnt have multiple magic of the smith, or why a ventrue starter cant have 4 freak drives, an awe, a parity shift, entrancement, 3 deflections and a perfect paragon. It makes sense, and demonstrates what the clan the newbie pays for can do. Thats part of the purpose of starters. If the giovanni and lasombra both have mind rape and preturnatural strength, cool, its within thier purview. No reason to have a !gangrel starter have 6 agent of power, 5 summon history, ankara citadel, remnant of the endless storm and sword of nuln (even if they do kinda suck, and that being their starter is a funny joke) but starters should show a new player what a clan does, or an archtype, since a wide range can potentially be selectable. Not just show them what a clan does with 6 key rares and some commons. Unless its dom obf malk94 or something that only needs that. > > > I agree with part of this, and disagree to a point. > > If we are talking "starter" decks, 4 of any card you mentioned is fair. But should someone be able to build a starter deck with 40 Zip Guns? No. That should be reserved for a "gimmick" deck. > > As mirddes said (or didn't really) 15 freak drives is too much. I remember playing in the first "Create-a-clan" tournament, run by Ben Peal. I think 75% of the clans had Fortitude for the Freak Drive. > > There should be "static" starter decks for beginners. But the past few posts were talking about "custom" starters. There should be reasonable limits, and now is the time to discuss them. > Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

> mirddes wrote: > 15 freakdrives > Unless you are implying the ventrue precon be maryanne blair x5 with one of each supporting ventrue in g4-4, with8x govern, 4xscouting mission,5xenchant kindred and 3x 4 th tradition with 3 golcondas, or the !gangrel be an una deck, i fail to see the practicaility. Unless you just need 15, which you can probably just order. I need 32 -40 more freak drivesmyself, 24-32 more deflections, and 24 eyes of argus, along with 18 more deep song. But you kinda just lost me. A recap of rares for a toolboxy ventrue: daring the dawn, day op, awe, parity shift, ephor,island of yairos, mind rape, hostile tskeover, dreams of the sphinx, and first tradition. Uncommons: freak drive x3-4, perfect paragon, entrancement, 3-4 deflections, command of the beast, judgement cam seg and 3-4 2nd tradition. Commons: govern, bonding, seduction, conditioning, majesty , hidden strength, meat hook, cat fear, staredown, denial of aphrodities favor, target vitals, krc,con boon, political stranglehold, reins of power, bewitching oration, ventrue headquarters, voter cap, villein, blood doll, ventrue directorate assembly, force of will. The point is, it does lots of stuff. Votes , bleeds, denies blocks, bounces, blocks with intercept,ends combat, prevents damage, and dishes out a little combat damage. Diverse.

> direwolf wrote: > But the past few posts were talking about "custom" starters. > Who would buy that? It is too complicated for beginners and too restrictive for old players.

Reasonable limits i feel should mean you dont have 8 freak drives and 7 deflections out of the box. The cam edition starters were all over the place, then starters got gradually better until ben peal did the httb ones. (I started playing at cam) bens decks were effective for bloodlines, but regular clans can have similar decks with more options. Important cards like deep song or freak drives should be x3-4, but not more. Kindred spirits could be x6-7. But having 5 baltimore purge is too much like deciding what the deck does exclusively by including that amount. Thatsbad, because it defeats thw purpose of a rounded, semi efficient starter.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > > > mirddes wrote: > > 15 freakdrives > > > Unless you are implying the ventrue precon be maryanne blair x5 with one of each supporting ventrue in g4-4, with8x govern, 4xscouting mission,5xenchant kindred and 3x 4 th tradition with 3 golcondas, or the !gangrel be an una deck, i fail to see the practicaility. Unless you just need 15, which you can probably just order. I need 32 -40 more freak drivesmyself, 24-32 more deflections, and 24 eyes of argus, along with 18 more deep song. > > But you kinda just lost me. A recap of rares for a toolboxy ventrue: daring the dawn, day op, awe, parity shift, ephor,island of yairos, mind rape, hostile tskeover, dreams of the sphinx, and first tradition. > Uncommons: freak drive x3-4, perfect paragon, entrancement, 3-4 deflections, command of the beast, judgement cam seg and 3-4 2nd tradition. > Commons: govern, bonding, seduction, conditioning, majesty , hidden strength, meat hook, cat fear, staredown, denial of aphrodities favor, target vitals, krc,con boon, political stranglehold, reins of power, bewitching oration, ventrue headquarters, voter cap, villein, blood doll, ventrue directorate assembly, force of will. > > The point is, it does lots of stuff. Votes , bleeds, denies blocks, bounces, blocks with intercept,ends combat, prevents damage, and dishes out a little combat damage. Diverse. > Parity Shift is an uncommon, not a rare, Ventrue Headquarters is an uncommon not a common, so is political stranglehold, Villein and voter cap, and Denial of Aphrodite's Favor is a rare, not a common.

> Non-existant user wrote: > > > direwolf wrote: > > But the past few posts were talking about "custom" starters. > > > Who would buy that? It is too complicated for beginners and too restrictive for old players. > I would buy it. Then again, I'm probably not your regular "old player." Don't underestimate "old players" either. It's not so different from when I want to build a deck, and I don't want to take apart other decks to build it. Restrictions on deckbuilding can lead to creative decks. The idea that I could purchase a new deck without having to take apart my existing decks is appealing, even if I would have to purchase two decks and "mash" them up to get what I want. Also, consider this: what if you could make "custom" starter decks and they are available to others to purchase? Wouldn't that be cool? On top of that, I don't think it's too complicated for a new player who is about to invest money in the game. There will be options for players who have never played the game before, such as normal, non-customizable starter decks. There is another advantage: we will be able to gather meaningful statistics based on card selection based on what players buy. Another advantage is that cards that are of marginal use will be printed in appropriate proportions. (Eccentric Billionaire, I'm looking at you!) Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

Id buy it too, then again id buy anything that vekn would put out just about now. Hahahaha.

Pre-cons are a great idea for new players — but unless the economics works perhaps they should just be a pre-selected print on demand deck. Let go of the rare, uncommon, common mindset — it should be a thing of the past. On Lackey often you will see diverse and creative (or at least different) decks simply because card availability is not a concern. It should also be like this in real life and print on demand makes this a possibility. Embrace it, it could be great. If it fails — what does it change? nothing of importance. Artificial restrictions / limits on cards is just a waste of time and energy. I could perhaps understand it if there was a card limit in VTES, but there isn't so why try and enforce one on build to order decks? Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook

> direwolf wrote: > (Eccentric Billionaire, I'm looking at you!) > Don't dis the billionaire — I witness him deliver a game win at the UK Nationals. Amaranth Deck Building Tool : VTES NZ : VTES ANZ Facebook

> Ke. wrote: > > > direwolf wrote: > > (Eccentric Billionaire, I'm looking at you!) > > > Don't dis the billionaire — I witness him deliver a game win at the UK Nationals. > Not saying it's a bad card. But they printed too many. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

IMO we should create some starter decks for all clan's. We can start a thread for submitting some reasonable starter decks for the POD expansion. And we can also create some standard boosters for drafts. I have already mentioned that draft text should be added to the old cards... Besides the decks and boosters players could also buy POD cards. Other possibility is allowing the old decks to be reprinted... CE, SW, FN, etc. If you want to maintain the ratio common vs rares vs uncommon, that POD will always kill it, no one will want some of the rares that exist. I don't think that someone will ask for a copy of bloodbath...

> blackday wrote: > Id buy it too, then again id buy anything that vekn would put out just about now. Hahahaha. > pins. mats. carrying cases. anything. (as long as shipping to philippines is reasonable.)

Would precon decks be available as an ordering option? It seems like it would be the easiest thing to do, just feed a deck-list into the ordering system. There's a number of decks in the various guidebooks that have come out, as well as all the starters' lists that could be a good place to start. I know I'd personally order a set of HttB starter reprints - I've never even seen them in person and nuts to ebay prices.

> Ke. wrote: > Pre-cons are a great idea for new players — but unless the economics works perhaps they should just be a pre-selected print on demand deck. > > Let go of the rare, uncommon, common mindset — it should be a thing of the past. On Lackey often you will see diverse and creative (or at least different) decks simply because card availability is not a concern. It should also be like this in real life and print on demand makes this a possibility. Embrace it, it could be great. If it fails — what does it change? nothing of importance. > > Artificial restrictions / limits on cards is just a waste of time and energy. I could perhaps understand it if there was a card limit in VTES, but there isn't so why try and enforce one on build to order decks? > This, so much this! Balance in vtes is not maintained by bogus 'rarity'. It's all a scramble anyway, there are 'rare' cards that are widely available and 'commons' that are not, let us all just let it go and build whatever decks we want and get back to playing the game. IMO.

What is the status of print and play? Have not been back on the forum in a while and from I can tell it is still a potential, but nothing one way or the other and it would seem that it will be another few months before we find out whether it will happen or not. Does that seem accurate?

Its still a strong possibility and no more updates exist aside from specualtion and requests. Rodd, want me to txt you when that changes?

I know i'm coming late to the party, and prolly someone said this before but here is my 2cents. Also remember that I started playing when the game was "over" and only bought cards very, very much later. I agree with those who said that precons are good for new players, but I remember people in my play group who have just about EVERY card, saying they bought decks because they had certain cards or material. From this, I conclude that there are 2 possible targets for the precons: new players, who can have a taste of certain types of decks/clans and players who want some things from those decks. Bearing this in mind, why not include certain items that might be valued by more "serious" players/collectors (i.e. a good deckbox - tin cans, I'm thinking of you) and have a "new player suggested decks/ready to play" card lists from the print-on-demand thingy-majigy. To sum it up, what I mean is "give added value to precons, making them accessible to new players who wish to spend a little more and older players who want something from them".

I´m getting a little bit annoyed by the lack of information concerning the future of the game, especially about the new set. Is any progress being made? Is there an desition made NOT to release the new set in pdf-format any time soon? Is there any kind of timeframe discussed at all? I want to know more, and I´m sure I´m not alone. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

I'm pretty sure when there's something to report it'll be reported. I'd be inclined to say that the copyright owners do not hold this as high priority thing so the timeframe is very likely likely: Future. Hopefully sooner than later Finnish Politics!

> Ashur wrote: > I´m getting a little bit annoyed by the lack of information concerning the future of the game, especially about the new set. > Perhaps you could step-up and volunteer to be part of the process. Then you'd understand the issues involved and why, despite your personal emotional needs, the Inner Circle doesn't post daily updates. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

If we're possibly going to be encroaching on others IP, then they'll probably want to review what we make. So I'm doubting that they will put it at the top of their priorities considering it won't make them money. Then once we get the ability to publish the cards at all, THEN we'd need to see if we can negotiate to PoD the new cards and/or old cards. THEN... So there will be some delays. Too many things that can't be controlled are in the way. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> KevinM wrote: > > > Ashur wrote: > > I´m getting a little bit annoyed by the lack of information concerning the future of the game, especially about the new set. > > > Perhaps you could step-up and volunteer to be part of the process. Then you'd understand the issues involved and why, despite your personal emotional needs, the Inner Circle doesn't post daily updates. > Who asked for daily updates? And who said I don´t volunteer? I organize monthly tournaments, a weekly league, I demo the game, I playtest - what more do you ask of me KevinM? And why, in a rude way, try to answer questions on forums that you obviously cannot answer? "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > > > KevinM wrote: > > > > > Ashur wrote: > > > I´m getting a little bit annoyed by the lack of information concerning the future of the game, especially about the new set. > > > > > Perhaps you could step-up and volunteer to be part of the process. Then you'd understand the issues involved and why, despite your personal emotional needs, the Inner Circle doesn't post daily updates. > > > Who asked for daily updates? And who said I don´t volunteer? I organize monthly tournaments, a weekly league, I demo the game, I playtest - what more do you ask of me KevinM? > > And why, in a rude way, try to answer questions on forums that you obviously cannot answer? > You said you were "annoyed" at their lack of information, as if the Inner Circle promised anything to you (or anyone) regarding distribution of information. Did they make such a promise? If so, then you are correct and I apologize. If not, you're letting your emotions control your words and my original statement stands (with no apology). Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

KM: Clearly the word "annoyed" is the problem. Non-native English speakers sometimes can't possibly feel the strength of the words they use. I myself can't say if it's more of "pissed off" or "troubled" - in my language it means both and it depends on context. Here the context was "a little" - so I suppose you overreacted "a little". And in our situation when the game is "a little" rotting, a monthly "Hello, we're still here" from the IC couldn't hurt. I keep checking VEKN every other day and yes, I am waiting for at least such pep talk. The "volunteer or shut up" attitude clearly doesn't help that much. "I like to think there always are ...possibilities." Spock

> Daidalos wrote: > And in our situation when the game is "a little" rotting, a monthly "Hello, we're still here" from the IC couldn't hurt. I keep checking VEKN every other day and yes, I am waiting for at least such pep talk. The "volunteer or shut up" attitude clearly doesn't help that much. > I'm sorry that you interpreted my statement that way. The suggestion that he volunteer was given because volunteers have more information than non-volunteers and perhaps this would lessen his concerns. The constant hand-holding that you suggest isn't present in any adult-run organization or business that I have ever been a part of or am aware of. This is the very sort of thing that doesn't need to be said. Given the history of VEKN, what they have done and continue to do for V:TES, and given that they operate on their own timetable with sometimes fast and sometimes slow updates, I'm willing to trust that they are doing what needs to be done. The fact that information isn't being given on someone else's timetable is no reason for an interrogation session or a demand for more information, especially from a volunteer organization that has set no firm dates. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> KevinM wrote: > I'm sorry that you interpreted my statement that way. The suggestion that he volunteer was given because volunteers have more information than non-volunteers and perhaps this would lessen his concerns. > > The constant hand-holding that you suggest isn't present in any adult-run organization or business that I have ever been a part of or am aware of. This is the very sort of thing that doesn't need to be said. > > Given the history of VEKN, what they have done and continue to do for V:TES, and given that they operate on their own timetable with sometimes fast and sometimes slow updates, I'm willing to trust that they are doing what needs to be done. The fact that information isn't being given on someone else's timetable is no reason for an interrogation session or a demand for more information, especially from a volunteer organization that has set no firm dates. > In what way are volunteers given more information in this matter? I am a prince and playtester. What level do you suggest I will have to reach to get more information. Why do you think a monthly "Hello, we're still here" is "a constant hand-holding? You can interpret my post as me criticising the lack of information. That means I suggest we have more information. Seem you have bad luck with "adult-run organizations". I have been with plenty that talk to their members/employee/volunteers all the time. I work for an rather enormous American company, and we have plenty of newsletters and so on, no problem. Like Daidalos said, "a little bit annoyed" might be the wrong way to put it, but I guess I don´t know the language good enough for KevinM. I LOVE THE VEKN INNER CIRCLE. I don´t demand anything. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > > I LOVE THE VEKN INNER CIRCLE. > I like this p.s. If You have some concerns please write to Johannes. I think He'll answer on Your questions if He can ofc. Personally I think that if anyone from IC will know something either good like PoD is getting started or something bad like Pod isn't getting started, will confirm this public. Now we can only speculate. And that's useless. Regards Szewski

If it will take time for licenses and such to be worked out, why aren't we working on or playtesting a new set? Baron of Berkeley

> Count wrote: > If it will take time for licenses and such to be worked out, why aren't we working on or playtesting a new set? > That is also a very good question. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

I think or lets rephrase it know that people involved in this matter are doing their best to get this thing running. However Things sometimes are slowly creeping forward and progress if any at all is not worth making public. Does that amswer the question on how things progress on this issue. Or would you all prefer a weekly newsletter from the IC saying things are happening but its state did not differ from last week or last month. Patience is a Virtue! Meanwhile I'd like to mention that we just orderd the Qualifier t-shirts today. We are ready to ship them early february. National Coordinator Germany

> Count wrote: > If it will take time for licenses and such to be worked out, why aren't we working on or playtesting a new set? > Because it probably seems foolish to create 2 or 3 sets if the first one won't get approved. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Daidalos wrote: > And in our situation when the game is "a little" rotting, a monthly "Hello, we're still here" from the IC couldn't hurt. I keep checking VEKN every other day and yes, I am waiting for at least such pep talk. The "volunteer or shut up" attitude clearly doesn't help that much. > yes. very much so. maybe the communications and/or marketing directors can have a monthly update. even just a "no updates this month guys, the inner circle in on vacation..." that's why i like extrala. he even mentioned he'll be on winter break. (and yet he still updated. haha.)

I hate agreeing with kevin on this topic, but we dont really need monthly updates if nothing is truly going on relivant to pod or the new set. But stuff is currently going on with playtesting, and thats just as it has been, im sure. In other news quasi related to the pod topic, onebookshelf (meaning the drive thru family of companies, meaning company of Steve Weick, part time savior of vtes) is now printing selling D&D stuff(meaning dungeons and dragons, meaning wotc/hasbro, meaning the owners of the tap mechanic and deckmaster copyright) so, for the dense folks, Drive thru companies are on good buisness terms with the primary company that would be problematic with getting licensing worked out. While thos has nothing directly to do with us (unless folks here needed d&d stuff in pdf) its a sign that things arent looking bad, at least. Pod is still not in sight yet, but it looks more possible than it did last week that we will see it soon. Aside from pod and future sets, i would kind of like to see at least a monthly post from someone in the ic, dt, marketing team, or david just so some new news is piping in, even if its kinda trivial.

> NC-Germany wrote: > Or would you all prefer a weekly newsletter from the IC saying things are happening but its state did not differ from last week or last month. Patience is a Virtue! > I never suggested a _weekly_ newsletter. > NC-Germany wrote: > Meanwhile I'd like to mention that we just orderd the Qualifier t-shirts today. We are ready to ship them early february. > This is exactly the type of information that could be summarized into a _monthly_ newsletter, or something similar. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > > > Count wrote: > > If it will take time for licenses and such to be worked out, why aren't we working on or playtesting a new set? > > > Because it probably seems foolish to create 2 or 3 sets if the first one won't get approved. > Wait a minute now... What do you mean? Approved by whom? We have created a set, I assume it will be published in some way, POD or not? So why not start working on a another set? "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > Wait a minute now... What do you mean? Approved by whom? > By players, at the very least. There is a real possibility that after two or three month, people prefer to ignore the new set. I am sure each and every people involved in it strive for the highest quality, but it can be a resounding failure regardless. In this case, not having set already done is a big advantage, since having already so much hard work done on other sets would make methodology work a lot harder.

> Ashur wrote: > > > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > > > > > Count wrote: > > > If it will take time for licenses and such to be worked out, why aren't we working on or playtesting a new set? > > > > > Because it probably seems foolish to create 2 or 3 sets if the first one won't get approved. > > > Wait a minute now... What do you mean? Approved by whom? We have created a set, I assume it will be published in some way, POD or not? So why not start working on a another set? > White Wolf/CCP and Wizards/Hasbro still own all the IP we are using. They would probably want to at least look at them before they are released. The playtesting is currently not yet over AFAIK. The art may not be completely finalised. They may want to stall releasing the set as a PDF if there is a chance of releasing it in PoD. If it is going to go PoD, then WW/CCP and Wizards/Hasbro will definitely want to look over the cards. That's not even speculating about people losing time to the parts of their life that are not volunteering for the VEKN. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

I'm always shocked at how conservative this group is. The VEKN has been doing things perfectly since before the beginning of time, and any changes are heresy. It's like we're in a bad religion. Starting a monthly thread saying "all parties are hard at work, but we don't have any solid news to announce" would clearly destroy this game, the internet, and possibly the universe as we know it. Boy, I'm glad that isn't happening! Dodged that bullet. On a more serious and less sarcastic note, I understand the need to defend the VEKN. But decrying every suggestion for change and pointedly stating that those advocating change are just lazy fools who refuse to devote their time to a volunteer organization only those seeking to help and instead ensures that this game stays dead. We all want to see good things happen to this game. Surely that common ground is sufficient to keep the peace (I can dream, can't I?). Finally, as far as my playtest group knows, playtesting of Danse Macabre is over. We have no idea what has happened to the cards, but we think there could and should be more playtesting. We're eager to see what changes the design team has made. Check out my VTES blog: Gaming with BS I also host a google doc which separates the TWDA into clans . That means I track how often clans win, which crypt groups get used, and how many people attend events. You can access all of that info here:

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > Ashur wrote: > > Wait a minute now... What do you mean? Approved by whom? > > > There is a real possibility that after two or three month, people prefer to ignore the new set. > Sure, this is possible in some playgroups, but if the cards are legal for tournament play, how can they be ignored? "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > White Wolf/CCP and Wizards/Hasbro still own all the IP we are using. They would probably want to at least look at them before they are released. The playtesting is currently not yet over AFAIK. The art may not be completely finalised. They may want to stall releasing the set as a PDF if there is a chance of releasing it in PoD. If it is going to go PoD, then WW/CCP and Wizards/Hasbro will definitely want to look over the cards. > I´m not american, so I don´t understand this. The VEKN kan make a pdf of a bunch of new cards and declare they official VEKN cards. What has White Wolf/CCP and Wizards/Hasbro to do with this? > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > That's not even speculating about people losing time to the parts of their life that are not volunteering for the VEKN. > This is not a problem. People who have time should do volunteer work - if you don´t have time - don´t volunteer, or? "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> brettscho wrote: > I'm always shocked at how conservative this group is. The VEKN has been doing things perfectly since before the beginning of time, and any changes are heresy. It's like we're in a bad religion. Starting a monthly thread saying "all parties are hard at work, but we don't have any solid news to announce" would clearly destroy this game, the internet, and possibly the universe as we know it. Boy, I'm glad that isn't happening! Dodged that bullet. > Thanks for this. I absolutely agree. There are some people here with very weird intentions and argumentation. Nothing should ever change, nobody could ever do better, nobody deserve critique, etc. Ok, whatever, nevermind, go back to sleep everybody. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

Set wise: Danse still needs a R5 test - the head of the test groups have all the information I currently have on when this is (and yes it's late but that's how things go when there is no pressing deadlines) as for the second and subsequent sets the design team are outlining things they'd like to look at next with community input and there are 200+ card outlines in different stages and with different themes. I'm sure Ben will update the community when there is more to talk about but everything is in its infancy at the moment.

What the eff are they putting in the drinking water of Uppsala and California? Finnish Politics!

> Squidalot wrote: > Set wise: > > Danse still needs a R5 test - the head of the test groups have all the information I currently have on when this is (and yes it's late but that's how things go when there is no pressing deadlines) > I'm intrigued by the "no pressing dealines" comment. On reading this, my first interpretation is that no firm dealine for Danse Macabre's release has been set yet. I can imagine numerous reasons not to set a date, so I'm not particularly bothered by that, but is that an accurate reading? -- National Coordinator South Africa

> Ashur wrote: > I´m not american, so I don´t understand this. The VEKN kan make a pdf of a bunch of new cards and declare they official VEKN cards. What has White Wolf/CCP and Wizards/Hasbro to do with this? > Hasbro/WW own the idea of "turning a card 90 degrees to signify its use" and calling it "tapping". WW/CCP owns all of the fluff, names, disciplines, clans and so on. So, we can't make the cards without getting permission from those two companies (which is part of why VTES is out of print). Even with permission, the deal giving us permission from those companies may say "We (the companies) want to review the cards you make with our IP before you release them". Regarding people's time. Does your work have busy parts of the year? I know my work as a teacher does. I lose a number of weekends to examination marking and report writing at least twice a year. And so on. Take an consulting accountant as an example. Most accountants have a reasonably busy working year, but could contribute time to volunteer to VEKN all of the year. However, at the end of financial year their workload goes far through the roof as they finalise accounts and details for the yearly reports. What happens if they were working on something for the VEKN that got delayed and then happens at the same time as the end of financial year? Are they supposed to do a bad job at work to do the VEKN stuff or should they put the VEKN matters on pause to do their job well and come back to the VEKN matters? Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

vtes doesnt pay the bills, so work would naturally take precedence over anything else.

> drnlmza wrote: > > > Squidalot wrote: > > Set wise: > > > > Danse still needs a R5 test - the head of the test groups have all the information I currently have on when this is (and yes it's late but that's how things go when there is no pressing deadlines) > > > I'm intrigued by the "no pressing dealines" comment. On reading this, my first interpretation is that no firm dealine for Danse Macabre's release has been set yet. I can imagine numerous reasons not to set a date, so I'm not particularly bothered by that, but is that an accurate reading? > There's no release date - and it's still in discussion how/when it would be released and this takes a back seat to any POD discussions and it also directly dependent on these POD discussions. Johannes will update if and when there is any news on this front. So yes no firm deadlines though we obviously prefer to keep things moving and produce a backlog of useable cards/other set ideas.

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Hasbro/WW own the idea of "turning a card 90 degrees to signify its use" and calling it "tapping". > WW/CCP owns all of the fluff, names, disciplines, clans and so on. > > So, we can't make the cards without getting permission from those two companies (which is part of why VTES is out of print). Even with permission, the deal giving us permission from those companies may say "We (the companies) want to review the cards you make with our IP before you release them". > I do not think you understand what I´m saying. VEKN is not a legal body, right? It´s just a bunch of people doing stuff, over the net, non-profit? The take a bunch of names (Mithras, Donald Duck and Gandalf) and a bunch of rules (VTES or Monopoly, whatever) and artwork (stolen from VTES) and make a pdf with those, and say "These are VEKN tournament legal". Who should be sued? For what? > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Regarding people's time. Does your work have busy parts of the year? I know my work as a teacher does. I lose a number of weekends to examination marking and report writing at least twice a year. And so on. > If the VEKN/Design team need more people I´m sure there are plenty of volunteers that can be involved in various extent to ease their burden. At least the design team could easly be doubled in size. Just ask the community. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

Thanks Squidalot. I look forward to a new Designer´s Diary soon. I´m sure there are plenty to say, _without_ discussing the pod-thingy. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

I'm waiting on proofreading, comments, etc. on my Designer's Diary draft entry. It'll be up in a day or two.

> Ashur wrote: > I do not think you understand what I´m saying. VEKN is not a legal body, right? It´s just a bunch of people doing stuff, over the net, non-profit? The take a bunch of names (Mithras, Donald Duck and Gandalf) and a bunch of rules (VTES or Monopoly, whatever) and artwork (stolen from VTES) and make a pdf with those, and say "These are VEKN tournament legal". Who should be sued? For what? > Who do you sue? Anyone who has any money who was at all involved in the production of the cards. Everyone involved may potentially have been responsible by different amounts to this breach of copyright. So that means everyone from Johannes down to the playtesters. What do you sue them for? Anything you can make fit. Mostly breach of copyright but there is probably a longer list of things you could add to the end to convince the individuals to cough up a lot of cash and not contest it in court. Do the Design Team need more people? Probably not. This isn't really their problem. It's more about timing than lack of manpower in general. If WW/CCP or Wiz/Hasbro sit on it for 2 months because they can't be bothered with it right now and then it lands on a VEKN's person's "In Pile" when they're busy with other things... there's not much that can be done. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Squidalot wrote: > Set wise: > > Danse still needs a R5 test - the head of the test groups have all the information I currently have on when this is (and yes it's late but that's how things go when there is no pressing deadlines) > But we need an update!!! I'm annoyed!!11!!!!!!!!!1111!!!!!!! UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

There are some fresh news regarding POD, but they just came up during the couple of last days. I´ll do a state of the VEKN soon. Wrecked my shoulder a couple of days ago, didn´t help with the pile of things to do.

> johannes wrote: > There are some fresh news regarding POD, but they just came up during the couple of last days. I´ll do a state of the VEKN soon. > Johannes, or anybody else from the Inner Circle: What are the news? I think most of us have waited patiently, except for those players who have left the game by now due to lack of new cards. But by now, I for one would appreciate reading monthly updates - even if those updates would just say that there are no news. But the continued silence leaves us without any visibility if something is, in fact, still ongoing with Danse Macabre, and/or Print in Demand. Pretty please? Regards, Hardy "It was a perfect plan - until it had contact with reality" --- Hardy Range Playgroup Tradition Compliance Manager

I agree. While we were 41 attending the swedish ECQ this weekend, people are selling off their collections. Something has to happen soon. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

I will be just copying hardyrange and Ashur, but same aplies to me. Players are asking if I can ge them some news on Prince level and I have to tell them, that there is nothing. Interest is fading and organizing tournament has became very difficult. I think everyone would like at least minor update at this pointm since people are losing hope.... czechvtes.blogspot.com/

Yes, news is absolutely necessary. I'm very unimpressed with the VEKN at this point. Say what you want about PCK, but they have a set already finished playtested and are on their second. I think if anything should result from that debacle, it's the VEKN stepping up and working diligently to prove their initial allegations wrong. If VEKN can't publish the Danse Macabre set right away, something else needs to take its place. Storylines, themed tournaments, experimental cards, new playtesting, anything to get some blood flowing. Baron of Berkeley

How do board games retain their popularity? I've never heard of people cashing out of board games due to lack of new material for said board games. Prince of Dallas Toreador Grand Ball: Dallas August 13, 2022

> ruiza97 wrote: > How do board games retain their popularity? I've never heard of people cashing out of board games due to lack of new material for said board games. > Different expectations. The reality is that there's infinitely more variety in V:TES with no new cards than in any boardgame I've played. Yet, variety by itself isn't what people are looking for. I used to lament how slowly V:TES expansions came out because I played other CCGs, which needed new expansions in order to shake up the environment. Few cards actually shake up V:TES's environment, so new sets were never as important. V:TES also lends itself better than two-player CCGs to being played like a boardgame with a vast number of components and ways to use the components. So, again, new cards not as important. Yet, the expectation is along customizable card game lines. A boardgame is (usually) within the box, hopefully doesn't take much longer than an hour, is easily replaced with a different boardgame after a few plays, is easily house-ruled without a bunch of unintended consequences, requires no investment of time or thought, can usually scale down so that you can have two three player games going instead of one six player V:TES game, etc. If I had to pinpoint the most important element it would be the difference in investment between the game types. Not talking about money. Talking about thought. CCGs are suited to people who think about their games. Deckbuilding is a non-play activity that respects effort of thought. The "take or leave it" nature of most boardgames means that they are suited to casual play and casual effort. Your corn shipping strategy fails? Who cares? Can't build a functional Abominations with Helicopters deck? Left wanting more cards published. I actually think quite a few CCGs can work just fine with no individual deckbuilding aspect because they play well enough as boardgames played like that. But, deckbuilding is the driver of CCGs, and CCGs with less than compelling deckbuilding often lose their playerbases. V:TES seems stale to some right now. I think new cards is mostly just an illusion of greater variety at this point, but that illusion (or a different one) is what CCGs need. Traveller Card Game

> ruiza97 wrote: > How do board games retain their popularity? I've never heard of people cashing out of board games due to lack of new material for said board games. > While ICL have good point, the reality of the matter is that they don't retain their popularity.

In order to shake up the enviroment, if no new cards come out, we can start banning effective ones. Now that would bring a change in the metagames . E.g. ban Theft of Vitae, and whole new world of possibilities would open in THA combat strikes selection. Forcibly . Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.

> ruiza97 wrote: > How do board games retain their popularity? I've never heard of people cashing out of board games due to lack of new material for said board games. > Even board games get expansions, sometimes several of them. It really depends on the game, but "system games" generally have new expansions or scenarios to keep them fresh and keep players interested. VTES and CCG's are certainly like these games, but with the expectations only magnified. We know that VTES is a game with several underdeveloped concepts and weaknesses, so if the purpose of the VEKN is to foster interest in the game, expansions are a natural fit. If we can't upload pdf sets, then why not storylines? Themed tournaments? Something to show the player base that the game is still viable. Baron of Berkeley

> Count wrote: > then why not storylines? Themed tournaments? Something to show the player base that the game is still viable. > Isn't that up to the princes? I'm running a Dallas storyline-based game at the annual anime convention. Nothing from VEKN required. Other than using some rules from previous storylines. Prince of Dallas Toreador Grand Ball: Dallas August 13, 2022

> ruiza97 wrote: > > > Count wrote: > > then why not storylines? Themed tournaments? Something to show the player base that the game is still viable. > > > Isn't that up to the princes? I'm running a Dallas storyline-based game at the annual anime convention. Nothing from VEKN required. Other than using some rules from previous storylines. > It's up to princes to get individual games running, but it seems like the VEKN could develop further events to distribute to their underlings. Isn't that the whole point of this hierarchy? Shouldn't leadership actually do some leading? Baron of Berkeley

> kombainas wrote: > In order to shake up the enviroment, if no new cards come out, we can start banning effective ones. Now that would bring a change in the metagames . E.g. ban Theft of Vitae, and whole new world of possibilities would open in THA combat strikes selection. Forcibly . > up. this was discussed a while back. why not change rulings every year or something. (EG. 1st strike is 1st strike. yes yes. that again.) let's see how the metagame will change. then at the end of the year. vote on what rulings should stay or not. and add new ones. really no point in saying it would be very hard for new players as there arent any

If you want to do that, start a 'Metabans' Project - A rotating list of say.... 20 cards that are banned that 'season', maybe every six months or year, and change from year to year all in the name of keeping the game fresh. Individual Tournament Organisers can then choose whether a given tournament is following the 'Metaban' system, and VEKN could potentially adopt it as a tournament option purely to keep us nicely ticking over. Actually, that sounds way better than I expected it to. Here we go again.... Dave Knowles (Advanced) Sabbat Bishop of Manchester

> Shockwave wrote: > If you want to do that, start a 'Metabans' Project - A rotating list of say.... 20 cards that are banned that 'season', maybe every six months or year, and change from year to year all in the name of keeping the game fresh. > How much playtesting is there for the new environment? Banning 15-20 moderate-to-high profile cards is likely to do some considerable damage to a variety of competitive deck types. (If most of them aren't moderate-to-high profile cards, banning them will have close to zero effect.) As with many suggestions, stealth-and-bleed has relatively little to fear. It has so many duplicate cards, and you're extremely unlikely to ban all of them. Okay, I can't play Govern and Lost in Crowds, boo hoo. Yet it would be relatively easy to take out the defensive legs of many a tier 1.5 or tier 2 strategy by banning cards that are key to their survival - say, the only (useful) bleed bounce or bloat tool they had available. Tools that combo exceptionally well together for a Tier 1 monster are sometimes, separately, just good enough to make a difficult deck viable - a ban hurts both, but when a Tier 1 deck gets worse, it's potentially still viable. Do we just find ourselves making Stealth-Bleed better? And yes, players could ditch an optional tournament, but for some people in some areas it might not be all that optional. Other people may very well want to play it, and therefore want to prepare for it. (This is why, de facto, the vast majority of players I've ever encountered play with 90 card decks and standard tournament rules.) Type 1 and Type 2, and things like that, can work okay for something like Magic when it had huge numbers of players, such that a very large number of players would be able to find whichever tournament type they wanted a reasonable distance from home. For V:TES? Not so much. The occasional storyline is different - I have to sit out precisely one tournament when I really can't be arsed to build a groupless Kiasyd deck. I'm not generally sitting out multiple tournaments for six-twelve months, and maybe finding my home game splintering as well. It's also somewhat more difficult to re-attract former players on a casual basis. "Yeah, we're playing the DeflectoShift ban block now. You can't come and play your favourite Ventrue Princes Group 1-2 deck, Bob, all the main cards are banned, sorry."

Following up on the problems James mentions with actually testing changes, people just don't agree on what the problems are, as seen in the forums any time any card gets mentioned. While people's opinions in a local meta might be more similar, they are still going to differ. And, my experience is that other groups don't trust results from a single, local meta that isn't somehow tied into the inner circle of the game, so no one will ever adopt your changes, anyway. So, what's the point? Traveller Card Game

> ICL wrote: > So, what's the point? > Games with next to no common point with VtES have successfully implemented that. So, it's clearly a good solution for VtES. Sarcasm apart, some people want to try something, anything, to happen and spark additional interest to the game. In my opinion, it prove that the next set need to happen soon, since people propose what is in my opinion reckless changes as a substitute for the aforementioned set.

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > ICL wrote: > > So, what's the point? > > > Games with next to no common point with VtES have successfully implemented that. So, it's clearly a good solution for VtES. > > Sarcasm apart, some people want to try something, anything, to happen and spark additional interest to the game. In my opinion, it prove that the next set need to happen soon, since people propose what is in my opinion reckless changes as a substitute for the aforementioned set. > If other games have done it, then why isn't someone proposing using the same model used for those games? Sure, people are bored. I get that. And, I'm perfectly happy to ban cards, ditch rules, and the like. I just have never found people willing to implement such changes in any sort of coherent manner. On the other hand, speaking of boredom, the cure I find for that is to build more decks and play more games and stop worrying about tournament play. I'd easily be interested in other CCGs long dead if I had a group that built decks and played regularly, CCGs that want new cards far more than V:TES does. Traveller Card Game

> ICL wrote: > If other games have done it, then why isn't someone proposing using the same model used for those games? > It's exactly what they do by proposing a rolling card ban. But it's for vastly differents games ; the first one I heard doing that what Yu-gi-oh TCG, which use card but apart than that have no common point whatsoever with VtES. Other examples given where videogame that weren't even using card.

PoD, in conjunction with the new set, will add some eegree of freshness to the game. The new set doesnt really need much explaination, and will rake in money for steve weicks company, as will pod, As for PoD, who has 20+ of each of the following : sense dep, enkil cog, baltimore purge, mind rape, parity shift, summon history, coagulated entity, sirens lure, nephundus, carlton, war ghoul, legacy of pander, ezmerelda, romb of ramses, or kamakli nigbtmare? There are cards that very few people try because it takes a billion copiez of a card its hard to get one of to pull it off. Gwydd summoning history for a buttload of wolves? Casual, because most competetive players dont have the resources for dumping 12+ summon history into a so so idea to test. Huge vamp purge with enkil cogs to dunk n steal the table? Nobody has the extra purges n such to test that on a wide scale. Sense dep the table? Point is, most of us have that one player who has tried on of theze, but nobody else has enough of that key card, and the guy with 25 sense deps in a gabrin deck doeznt have the 17 sirens lure for a daughters multirush deck. Pod will make those cards available, so we have at least a year of screwing around with our what if ideas we never tried before, just due to la k of resources. Now, option 3: Making new cards from old Its been tossed uo before, but making erratta on some things along witb pod copies to make them playable. Eyes of the dead is beyond hope, but what about forgery requiring 3+ capacity? Or keep it simple being free? And my real idea: advanced versions of bad vamps. I think i have some ive done on my phone.... Attachment advanceddemocritus.jpg not found Hes playable. I also boosted some playable and almost awesome, like Attachment advancedmaxwell.jpg not found And then i broke another jhyhad vamp: Attachment advancedbasilia.jpg not found Anyway, get the idea? I dont think random banning is what we need, but new cards and improved access are just what we need.

> ICL wrote: > On the other hand, speaking of boredom, the cure I find for that is to build more decks and play more games and stop worrying about tournament play. I'd easily be interested in other CCGs long dead if I had a group that built decks and played regularly, CCGs that want new cards far more than V:TES does. > I agree entirely, but I suspect that several casual metas are sustained by players who also want to be in tournament. Or, more to the point, *aren't* so sustained. Now, tournament play doesn't seem to be vital for holding a group together, but I don't really know what does. The almost complete absence of VTES in Ontario, for instance - which has over 1/3 of the population of Canada as a whole - makes me wonder how groups hold it together.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > It's also somewhat more difficult to re-attract former players on a casual basis. "Yeah, we're playing the DeflectoShift ban block now. You can't come and play your favourite Ventrue Princes Group 1-2 deck, Bob, all the main cards are banned, sorry." > Well, there's a little thing called "common sense", that will let you allow your friend play his old deck in a casual game. don't thank me, i'm cool with giving you some hints from time to time Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> DeathInABottle wrote: > makes me wonder how groups hold it together. > metropolitan area of 6 million. I can now get at least 5 for a once every 2 months social game. nevermind doing a tourney. Prince of Dallas Toreador Grand Ball: Dallas August 13, 2022

> Reyda wrote: > > > jamesatzephyr wrote: > > It's also somewhat more difficult to re-attract former players on a casual basis. "Yeah, we're playing the DeflectoShift ban block now. You can't come and play your favourite Ventrue Princes Group 1-2 deck, Bob, all the main cards are banned, sorry." > > > Well, there's a little thing called "common sense", that will let you allow your friend play his old deck in a casual game. > don't thank me, i'm cool with giving you some hints from time to time > Which means that the other players can't properly prepare for the tournament because they're now having to deal with all those banned cards again, and Bob can't drop into a tournament. A really great way to cause problems all round.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > Reyda wrote: > > > > > jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > It's also somewhat more difficult to re-attract former players on a casual basis. "Yeah, we're playing the DeflectoShift ban block now. You can't come and play your favourite Ventrue Princes Group 1-2 deck, Bob, all the main cards are banned, sorry." > > > > > Well, there's a little thing called "common sense", that will let you allow your friend play his old deck in a casual game. > > don't thank me, i'm cool with giving you some hints from time to time > > > Which means that the other players can't properly prepare for the tournament because they're now having to deal with all those banned cards again, and Bob can't drop into a tournament. > > A really great way to cause problems all round. > Nowhere before you did talk about tournaments. You were talking about casual games with Bob... So suddenly it's about tournaments. I'm sure that if Bob really wants to try the competitiveg scene again, he will play a legal deck, and borrow cards from *friends*. Common sense, as always. But boy, how arguing with you even about trivial things is tiring... Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

Why are you refering to Bob as if he is retarded child and cannot change anything within his deck (and has only 1 and no spare cards)? Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.

> Reyda wrote: > Nowhere before you did talk about tournaments. You were talking about casual games with Bob... > No, I explicitly did talk about tournaments, preparing for tournaments and the fracturing of a home game. I referred to re-attracting former casual players, but even casual players play the occasional tournament, and the competitive players like to try out new decks in their home games. Like I said. Explicitly. > Reyda wrote: > So suddenly it's about tournaments. > There's nothing sudden about it. It was right there in my post. > Reyda wrote: > I'm sure that if Bob really wants to try the competitiveg scene again, he will play a legal deck, and borrow cards from *friends*. Common sense, as always. > Again, telling a casual player that they have to reconstruct and re-learn entire decks before they can play does not make it easy to reattract former players. Common sense, as always. > Reyda wrote: > But boy, how arguing with you even about trivial things is tiring... > If you were more interested in understanding what I'd written and less interested in your bizarre, petty, topsy-turvy, let's-just-lie-about-what-you-said point-scoring that has - in this instance - required you to completely ignore the discussion of tournaments, preparation for tournaments, and fracturing of home games in order to pretend I'm only now suddenly talking about tournaments, it may be less tiring.

> kombainas wrote: > Why are you refering to Bob as if he is retarded child and cannot change anything within his deck (and has only 1 and no spare cards)? > It's easier to re-attract a former casual player if they can play a deck they like, with minimal effort. Finding that your Ventrue deck is torpedoed by the loss of, say, Parity Shift, Second Tradition, Deflection, Voter Captivation and Giant's Blood is going to require a pretty serious amount of reworking. In order to 'shake up' the scene, it's pretty likely that it's those sorts of cards that are being hit. (It might not be those exact cards, of course.) Losing Deflection, for example, would likely not just be a matter of tweaking a few cards - when losing Govern might be relatively easily handled with a sticking-plaster of switching to Scouting Mission or something like that. Key defensive and bloat features might well require significant reconstruction of a deck. Lots of players graft a little bit of Dominate into decks in order to play Deflection - a couple of weenies, a couple of skills cards, selecting vampires with some OOC Dominate. Banning Deflection would not be trivially replaceable with, say, Redirection, because at inferior it requires a younger vampire bleeding you - no use against Imbued. Murmur of the False Will requires DOM, and had similar issues against older vampires and Imbued (but is a pretty interesting card). So suddenly I need to go for DOM, which might require a significant change of crypt, and possibly a bit more bloat to cope with older vampires or Imbued. Domi-Ravnos, for example, is a pretty fun deck style, but I don't think there are any Ravnos at all with DOM - and though most of the Ravnos with it are pretty big, I may still find myself on the end of an Inner Circle bleedzooka and having issues. Meta-banning Voter Cap might well screw with some powerful decks at the moment, and you might particularly dislike Deflection/Parity Shift/Voter Cap Camarilla decks being so powerful. (Seems reasonable.) But my favourite Setite deck might well be using Voter Cap to power some pool gain, which is partly a buffer against bleed decks. What do I do to replace that defensive measure? I can't exactly rely on Giant's Blood (which might be meta-banned anyway), maybe Lilith's Blessing (hard to get pre-POD, proxyable in casual games). I can't experiment with Fifth Tradition like the Camarilla might, or Festivo dello Estinto like the Sabbat might. Do we now find ourselves in a situation where the right way to defend is to back-oust in way more situations? That's pretty problematic. This may get even more problematic if meta-bans include crypt cards. Losing a key vampire may just totally destroy a deck, because it was built around a unique or particularly optimal combination of disciplines, titles, and special abilities. And as these things go, meta-banning certain vampires might well have the effect people want on the tournament scene, making certain popular decks much harder to use. e.g. banning Arika, banning some of the vampires for AAA. You might be able to construct a similarly-purposed deck, but way less efficient, relying on some library resources etc. This may leave some library cards available for other decks, if it's not necessary to meta-ban them in order to disrupt the successful archetypes.

> kombainas wrote: > Why are you refering to Bob as if he is retarded child and cannot change anything within his deck (and has only 1 and no spare cards)? > What suprises me, is the parallel universe where James lives, where some old timer decides casually to show at a tournament of a game they stopped to play X years earlier, decide to play the same deck without knowing anything about the metagame, trends or latest errata, probably -well certainly wasting some money and a whole day (6 hours +) for the pleasure of not having fun playing tournament v:tes. But hey, randomness is cool too Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> Reyda wrote: > What suprises me, is the parallel universe where James lives, where some old timer decides casually to show at a tournament of a game they stopped to play X years earlier, decide to play the same deck without knowing anything about the metagame, trends or latest errata, probably -well certainly wasting some money and a whole day (6 hours +) for the pleasure of not having fun playing tournament v:tes. > > But hey, randomness is cool too > Actually Reyda - it's not exactly a // universe - i've seen players turn up very casually to events in Sweden, UK and USA who haven't played for multiple years and have just grabbed their favourite deck. (In the UK i've seen 2 players try and use Dramatic upheavals after 3-5 years of it being banned because they didn't keep in touch) I'm surprised you've not seen it in France!

Some people try the tournament scene again after a long torpor, but suprisingly they ask and modify their decks before attending, and ask for replacement cards on forum if needed. And we lend them the cards. Yes, french people are cool like that. If bob wants to attend a tournament here, he's welcome Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> Squidalot wrote: > Actually Reyda - it's not exactly a // universe - > Indeed it isn't. It's just that for several years, Reyda has got his jollies from disagreeing with more-or-less anything I say in public, as part of his King Troll persona. Nor did I actually suggest the scenario of someone just turning up at a random tournament. King Troll knows this, but misrepresents what I said anyway. I am not sure why Reyda's behaviour is tolerated on these forums, given that he admits he is always on the trolling side, given his obsessive-compulsive hounding of me, and his outright lies. Presumably that's behaviour that V:EKN approves of. Why do the board administrators permit his trolling to continue after so long, and his open admissions that that's what he's doing?

i'm not really picking on you james : i'm picking on people who say silly things. Which you happen, by sheer coincidence, to do often. Somebody proposed something perfectly reasonable, and you found hundreds reason (some quite silly) to not change the game. I know it's difficult to embrace change, but if at some point you could consider this stuff instead of instantly dismissing it (a bit like ohlman put it : "it's stuff from yugi oh, i don't want it"), that would be a better world for players that need some change and can't wait for new cards forever. As a side note : i don't hate you. Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> Reyda wrote: > If bob wants to attend a tournament here, he's welcome > I'm not sure if we have any Bob's in the UK but we did have at least 3 Rob's at different stages... I don't think i'd use the 'players turn up only once every two years' as a reason to not ban/cycle cards as I would guess that stagnation is more 'dangerous' to the game than ex-players turning up and needing to change decks (albeit potentially significantly) We used to have bans/card limits [6 card?] in the very very first tournament rules (i swear I have a duelist with the recommended tournament rules in but I could be making that up) so I wouldn't say that doing funky things in VTES would be entirely new but still I really couldn't tell you if changing card blocks would help my personal tournament scene/playerbase

> Squidalot wrote: > i've seen players turn up very casually to events in Sweden, UK and USA who haven't played for multiple years and have just grabbed their favourite deck. > To support this I just heard that in the last weekend's Swedish ECQ at Gothcon there were several attendees that at least the Finns that tend to attend Swedish ECQ hadn't seen previously. Great thing that might have something to do with the upcoming EC in Sweden later on this year! Finnish Politics!

I do like the idea of a rotating ban list, and it sounds like it could be fun. But making it the default format just seems like it would be another layer of complexity for new players. Part of VtES's appeal is that you can use all* your cards, even the Jyhad ones. Why sacrifice that? If there are equivalent cards, you're only making people who have them re-sleeve them, and if there aren't you're potentially breaking decks. (*ok, almost all)

we're too concerned with bob who already left the game. how about chris, who's still playing, but bored.? pretty soon chris will become bob. showing up occasionally during tournaments with the same old decks.

Is there anything preventing Chris from using his own initiative to try a new deck or playstyle? I actually think a more interesting direction would be to borrow from the WoW TCG (who originally borrowed this from VtES!) and pursue alternate gameplay "modes" with stuff like dungeon and raid decks, unique PvP battleground games, and the like. If you're unfamiliar, the PvP battlegrounds work by imposing alternate victory conditions through a separate pile of cards / tokens, which approximate Capture the Flag or territory control. You can play with a standard deck, but if you optimize for the battleground it's going to be a better experience. The dungeons and raids were more co-op, but had a similar idea. The Nergal storyline deck comes to mind - consider if that had been fleshed out and developed further. Obviously co-op isn't very close to VtES's theme, but storylines and scenarios are the bread and butter of the Vampire RPG. It's frustrating - Storylines were a great idea with a TON of potential, but a different game took that ball and ran with it. So why not reclaim it? Arbitrary decrees like "No more Majesty!" are a little jarring. It feels artificial when your vampires can't use an ability because we're playing Some Type Deck Format Number. But tweaking victory conditions to where Majesty isn't as tech causes a natural shift away from it, and maybe a different card is substantially better in this Scenario. Essentially I'm saying we should expand, not contract. So what I think is that we can add Scenarios. Basically Storyline decks, but abbreviated with different win conditions, etc. Maybe the Scenario is about who can burn the most vampires in ten turns. Maybe it's about who can win a final vote on turn 7. VtES pioneered the idea of using our decks differently, so run with it.

> jtroyve wrote: > how about chris, who's still playing, but bored.? > WTF? There are 2136 library cards and 1370 crypt cards for the game. The options are endless. Just open the doors of perception and try out stuff you haven't previously -it all doesn't have to be classic tier 1 you know... Finnish Politics!

> Squidalot wrote: > We used to have bans/card limits [6 card?] in the very very first tournament rules (i swear I have a duelist with the recommended tournament rules in but I could be making that up) so I wouldn't say that doing funky things in VTES would be entirely new but still I really couldn't tell you if changing card blocks would help my personal tournament scene/playerbase > You mean this tournament rules from 1995? Check section 3.

> Lönkka wrote: > > > jtroyve wrote: > > how about chris, who's still playing, but bored.? > > > WTF? > > There are 2136 library cards and 1370 crypt cards for the game. > The options are endless. > Just open the doors of perception and try out stuff you haven't previously -it all doesn't have to be classic tier 1 you know... > It is really hard to explain this. I had built three decks in last four days. But there are some players, that just need a little more. I am a prince in our city - my predecessor didn't organize many tournaments, just like two in a year or so and even then, there were no promos or anything extra. But he did not have problems with people losing interest, mainly because there were new cards comming. On the other hand, I organize tournaments almost every month. I personally give advice to every player, that seems to have problem with the game or meta. We have tried almost every possible format of tournament. We have ongoing fourth round of league games. We have promo cards, cheap prizes for tournaments, which I am providing and have some ammount of money lying in those prizes. Still, there are players leaving. No rush. But one by one. First, selling off collections and keeping only their favourite decks, but selling them eventualy few months later. It is because they do not see development in a long run. And I cannot provide them any info, because I simply do not know - I can supply rumors at most. I have managed to bring a newbie into this game. But in the time, that it took me, we have lost one player. So you can see problems here. There are lot of cards, but lack of new and lack of info about future is killing spark of interest in players... czechvtes.blogspot.com/

So its time for an official press release about any news, even news about the absence of news? At leazt an all out there statement on facts about pod and the new set. I hate the idea of rotating cards. Why i play vtes. Id love some ki.d of weirx formats, but not in place of playing real vtes. Anyway, what ever happened to the spomesman? Like, last year id inquired about it, and nobody was ever announced as such. I threw in my hat, but nobody has been picked. At this point, even having somebody announce stasis on the project or do that while insinuating things would beat this void of new info. Players are getting whiny. Not only here, but locally, my meta was STUPID huge like 4 years back. Im talking about play at the comic shop on tuesday, theres 3 tables at least, pop by someones house, theres a game in the kitchen and one in the basement on weds and thurs, then play 4 tables friday, and maybe have a tourney one of the weekend days. Possibly 40+ ppl in the small newark/heath ohio area( which is a small area oitside of columbus, the capital of ohio, a small state, incidentally) So, we lost like all the sort of into it ppl who knew how to play. We arent alone. Odd formats wont matter. Wex lose more than we retain. But we need cards being printed. If the vekn gets moving soon, im hopeful. I wish the schism didnt happen in the dt, but thats old hat. We neex pod of old stuff for new players, we neex pod new stuff for old players. And news about all of it.

> Lönkka wrote: > Just open the doors of perception and try out stuff you haven't previously -it all doesn't have to be classic tier 1 you know... > It doesn´t? We´ll, I guess it depends if you want to win or not. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > So its time for an official press release about any news, even news about the absence of news? > I hope so. Do it. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > > > ReverendRevolver wrote: > > So its time for an official press release about any news, even news about the absence of news? > > > I hope so. Do it. > Thats the thing, theres no spokesman, theres no real news that ive got, other than rumor, and the only vekn folks that are often on here that could have the info and announce arent the ones involved in the project. So, while pascal is in a decdnt amount of conversations on here, and ben pops up every once in awhile, the people who know all the nuts n bolts cant say everything, and theres nobody whos relaying that things are static or leak some new news. The art being leaked was hot, but the buzz died quick. Having the art, then a month later tops spoiling the final version of the card its on would be good strategy. Even an article witb real, unyeilding final details on the set, including size, expansion symbol, and focus/themes would be very appreciated. Tease it lile something begween new mtg sets circa 5 years back and gw showing new models to support a new army book/codex. And hot on the heels of pod going full bore, and danse coming out, details on the following set, even if the release date is vague to the season and year, and the expansion symbol isnt set in stone. Just so people know theres something comimg down the pipeline to the playerbase. But everyones getting antsy, id settle for any tangible update right now. I feel confident in the ic, but updates would be very optimal. I dont expect Johannes to say"no movement on the pod danse front this week" 4 times a month, but having a spokesperson to relay news or the lack of it is better thanthe current state of whining and head scratching.

> Lönkka wrote: > > > jtroyve wrote: > > how about chris, who's still playing, but bored.? > > > WTF? > > There are 2136 library cards and 1370 crypt cards for the game. > The options are endless. > Just open the doors of perception and try out stuff you haven't previously -it all doesn't have to be classic tier 1 you know... > Yes. chris understands this. i think most of us here are chris'es. however, there are some players content on just playing with their Tier 1 decks. there's no real reason not to. it works. however, for some us. it's kind of boring to play against the same decks every time. also, let's be honest. about 1/2 of the library cards, and 3/4 of the vampires are wallpaper. but that's a digression. we're pretty lucky out here. more than half of us routinely change decks. some do not, due to lack of cards/no reason to change decks. however, with a very small play group, you run into another problem of limited amount of play styles.

i dunno, i've started spending more time playing DOTA2 instead of all the VTES deck experimentation i used to do. probably because DOTA has 10x the learning curve. obviously VTES isn't complicated enough. i demand a new set where everything has 9+ lines of cardtext!

> hardyrange wrote: > > > johannes wrote: > > There are some fresh news regarding POD, but they just came up during the couple of last days. I´ll do a state of the VEKN soon. > > > Johannes, or anybody else from the Inner Circle: > What are the news? > > I think most of us have waited patiently, except for those players who have left the game by now due to lack of new cards. > > But by now, I for one would appreciate reading monthly updates - even if those updates would just say that there are no news. > > But the continued silence leaves us without any visibility if something is, in fact, still ongoing with Danse Macabre, and/or Print in Demand. > > Regards, > > Hardy > "It was a perfect plan - until it had contact with reality" --- Hardy Range Playgroup Tradition Compliance Manager

> Ashur wrote: > > > Lönkka wrote: > > Just open the doors of perception and try out stuff you haven't previously -it all doesn't have to be classic tier 1 you know... > > > It doesn´t? We´ll, I guess it depends if you want to win or not. > Well, I just want to have a good time when playing. And trying to win with an unusual deck is worth it indeed. Winning isn't all in my eyes. But I hope for new cards too, of course. Baron of Frankfurt

And winning with a non-tier 1 deck ain't that rare. It's by definition a lot harder, but tournament result show it's possible.

Please, just make it quick. Whatever the solution is, just do it. We need new cards, stat!

> Ohlmann wrote: > And winning with a non-tier 1 deck ain't that rare. It's by definition a lot harder, but tournament result show it's possible. > I wasn't referring to just tournament play earlier on. Obviously I don't really suggest that people start playing in tournaments with extremely crappy decks. Finnish Politics!

This discussing, when you refer to a difference between tournament play and casual play, seem very strange to me. In Stockholm Sweden you often here "let´s all play casual decks this time" before a game, and yet most people pick a tier 1 deck (dem-weenies, Vignes, lawfirm etc) and then laughs and say "oh, I thought you meant _swedish_ casual!" On the contrary, people here see it as a problem if someone play a deck that isn´t tournament capable, as it might be their table ally. You often here comments like "Yeah, he won, because he didn´t have a predator" when someone had a non-competent deck as predator. Sure, this messes up the creativity as you never are "allowed" to play something funky, but on the other hand we have a very hardened meta. Just look at the point spread in our league right now stockholmjyhad.blogspot.se/2013/04/the-stockholm-league-april-13-2013.html . A very "high lowest level". So, we need new cards - especially new vamps and cards that might fit in good decks, as we can´t play junk cards around here "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > but on the other hand we have a very hardened meta. > You really believe what you say ? If yes, you overestimate a lot the weight of the deck in a win. Player skill, table situation, and diplomacy are all as important than the deck.

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > Ashur wrote: > > but on the other hand we have a very hardened meta. > > > You really believe what you say ? > > If yes, you overestimate a lot the weight of the deck in a win. Player skill, table situation, and diplomacy are all as important than the deck. > You cant seriously judge the weight of yiur meta on twda or even hall of famers. If we vo that route, Ohio gets to look like some epicenter of us hall of famers, so we would, by those rules, have the strongest, most anti-casual meta in this hemosphere. Closer inspection shows that while we have people like bell, jay, will, james, loughman, cashdollar, and bob, we also have a slew of hall of famers and or people 1 tourney away from the hall of fame, who play, and have won tournaments with, decks far from tier 1. If your really good, or really lucky, you can win with garbage. If your good and bored winning with flavor of the week boring crap, you build something fun, and may win with that. Its happenex before, with hall of famers often even. But using your meta as an excuse to build the same boring decks is weak. Two years ago i wouldnt build a eeck without real combat defense and not worry. Built earth meld entric decks anyway. Not every ayer hax a grapple. So, build meta-crushers. Girls and imbued freaking HATE trochomancy. A gisela ks trocho decks on my itenerary. Bleex for one, mr useless table poisoning crosstable. I gain a pool and while doing so, lose some ash heap carxs. My point is, i dont care what your meta is, there is something yiu probably havent tried in it that can win by being out of the box. Having said that, pod and danse are much awIated globally, and we would all love both soon.

> Silmegil wrote: > It is really hard to explain this. I had built three decks in last four days. But there are some players, that just need a little more. I am a prince in our city - my predecessor didn't organize many tournaments, just like two in a year or so and even then, there were no promos or anything extra. But he did not have problems with people losing interest, mainly because there were new cards comming. > > On the other hand, I organize tournaments almost every month. I personally give advice to every player, that seems to have problem with the game or meta. We have tried almost every possible format of tournament. We have ongoing fourth round of league games. We have promo cards, cheap prizes for tournaments, which I am providing and have some ammount of money lying in those prizes. > > Still, there are players leaving. No rush. But one by one. First, selling off collections and keeping only their favourite decks, but selling them eventualy few months later. It is because they do not see development in a long run. And I cannot provide them any info, because I simply do not know - I can supply rumors at most. I have managed to bring a newbie into this game. But in the time, that it took me, we have lost one player. So you can see problems here. > > There are lot of cards, but lack of new and lack of info about future is killing spark of interest in players... > The lack of cards created by the company who controls the game is surely a big problem. As a form of support for VTES players and an effort to keep players motivated, PCK has already released a VTES set that aims to bolster the Sabbat sect: Guardians of the Faith That's a freely downloadable PDF set which should help to mitigate the absence of "new, real and printed" cards somewhat. Currently, we are working on a Laibon set which is supposed to fill out some missing crypt options and make the Aye/Orun concept better playable (or even worthwhile). Playtest is going on, we have finished round 2, and are preparing for round 3 to start soon. Anyone who wants to take part in playtesting is welcome, send us a short message to: . Also, we are trying to have as much updates about our ongoing activities on our blog PCK VTES . There is also some (hopefully) interesting stuff about VTES design in general and a few articles about specific things regarding the card game. Hopefully, this will help give players new ideas and keep them from drifting away. B-) pckvtes.wordpress.com

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > You cant seriously judge the weight of yiur meta on twda or even hall of famers. > Eh? What is this a reply to? I didn´t say anything like that. What are you referring to? "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Amenophobis wrote: > > > Silmegil wrote: > > It is really hard to explain this. I had built three decks in last four days. But there are some players, that just need a little more. I am a prince in our city - my predecessor didn't organize many tournaments, just like two in a year or so and even then, there were no promos or anything extra. But he did not have problems with people losing interest, mainly because there were new cards comming. > > > > On the other hand, I organize tournaments almost every month. I personally give advice to every player, that seems to have problem with the game or meta. We have tried almost every possible format of tournament. We have ongoing fourth round of league games. We have promo cards, cheap prizes for tournaments, which I am providing and have some ammount of money lying in those prizes. > > > > Still, there are players leaving. No rush. But one by one. First, selling off collections and keeping only their favourite decks, but selling them eventualy few months later. It is because they do not see development in a long run. And I cannot provide them any info, because I simply do not know - I can supply rumors at most. I have managed to bring a newbie into this game. But in the time, that it took me, we have lost one player. So you can see problems here. > > > > There are lot of cards, but lack of new and lack of info about future is killing spark of interest in players... > > > The lack of cards created by the company who controls the game is surely a big problem. > > As a form of support for VTES players and an effort to keep players motivated, PCK has already released a VTES set that aims to bolster the Sabbat sect: Guardians of the Faith > That's a freely downloadable PDF set which should help to mitigate the absence of "new, real and printed" cards somewhat. > > Currently, we are working on a Laibon set which is supposed to fill out some missing crypt options and make the Aye/Orun concept better playable (or even worthwhile). Playtest is going on, we have finished round 2, and are preparing for round 3 to start soon. Anyone who wants to take part in playtesting is welcome, send us a short message to: . > > Also, we are trying to have as much updates about our ongoing activities on our blog PCK VTES . There is also some (hopefully) interesting stuff about VTES design in general and a few articles about specific things regarding the card game. > > Hopefully, this will help give players new ideas and keep them from drifting away. B-) > Thank you very much. I have been following your work and I am very impressed. However our meta is split on using these cards yet. But I believe, that in time we will see them in play. I would just appreciate, if someone from IC could send a message, that they cannot disclose anything yet, just to make sure, that they are at least reading, what goes here. It is frustrating to be asked every week by players and not to know anything at all. czechvtes.blogspot.com/

> Ashur wrote: > > > ReverendRevolver wrote: > > You cant seriously judge the weight of yiur meta on twda or even hall of famers. > > > Eh? What is this a reply to? I didn´t say anything like that. What are you referring to? > Sorry, i must have assumed you were going with a more quantitative line of reasoning on that entire hardened meta thing. I admire most of the decks i see come from most of the stockholm area, but i disagree that playing tried and true decks in casual is the benchmark of a rigid meta. On tbe flipside, if your playing malk '94 in my meta at a casual table, and yiu arent either new to the game or on the verge of offing yourself due to not ousting anyone in years, the table isnt going to like you. Numerous times i made a habit of doing dirty things to no brain stealthbleed decks ran by players who knew better. For a solid three months, if my grand predator playex g2 ks bleed, regardless of who played it, i would prop up my predator with oneaction a turn, and if i had dominate, i would delibertly steal Korah and or Kite with graverobbing as soon as my predator was on their last legs. I like prisus and intercept, and people should play better decks in a combat meta. But i digress. Some tier one decks, such ad vignes, !ventrue grinders, no secrets, and lawfirm have lots of flex within the archetype and can be tooled out funky or slimmed down and streamlined to stupid efficiency and have it be exciting in casual ir a tournament. But playing imbued table poison, girls, or una solitaire in casual is annoying, no matter how its sliced. Playing all tier one in cazual doesnt really better a meta, is what im getting at. Variety and large quality and quantity of players do that. On the main topic: I think the VEKN wanted a shock and awe "ta-da!" Type unveiling of both POD and danse coming out, but its just taking alot of time to make it happen. I, like most players, was happy to wait on a set, to decrease wallpaper and increase useful and balanced cards. Butineed somethin soon on one front or the other, or im bored with the concept of a new set. Theres still plenty of decks to build withoit them, and while my experiments prove things like gotsdam is more versatile than bindusara, eventually im bound to run our of ds and ah 9 caps to build decks around, and im going to need more cards. Id really hooe POD is unning by then, so i can really try things after all this wait. This thread has kept going largely due to lack of information... Every 3 posts is someone saying they want a post, anniuncement, pm, carrier pigeon note, smoke signal message, comic speech bubble atrached to a figure in the gobi desert... ANYTHING relaying an update, even, and at this point maybe even especially, if there is no news other than nobody has been abducted by aliens and progress is still being made.

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > This thread has kept going largely due to lack of information... > > Every 3 posts is someone saying they want a post, anniuncement, pm, carrier pigeon note, smoke signal message, comic speech bubble atrached to a figure in the gobi desert... ANYTHING relaying an update, even, and at this point maybe even especially, if there is no news other than nobody has been abducted by aliens and progress is still being made. > That is exactly the reason why I made my post, to the Inner Circle, and repeated it above (and I will continue to do so). The lack of any communication re Danse Macabre and Print-on-Demand, despite myself and others repeatedly asking for it, worries me very much. "It was a perfect plan - until it had contact with reality" --- Hardy Range Playgroup Tradition Compliance Manager

People seem to confuse the lack of information to divulge to the deliberate unwillingness to keep the masses up to date. If there is nothing to report as things progress at snail's pace or less, there is, erm, nothing to report. Then again, perhaps the IC are keeping everyone, including Princes and NC completely uninformed of the Machiavellian machinations. You know, treating us all like Champions (the mushrooms) -keeping us in the dark and feeding bullshit. Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > If there is nothing to report as things progress at snail's pace or less, there is, erm, nothing to report. > This is not the way to to it. The IC don´t communicate much at all, about anything. I don´t see why that should be good. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

Rumor mill... Hum... Princes and NC can buy cards printed on demand for 0.05€ each... that's only available for them. The expansion logo is the original one... Some of them are making a fortune on Ebay...

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > Playing all tier one in cazual doesnt really better a meta, is what im getting at. Variety and large quality and quantity of players do that. > I don´t see the logic behind this. Compare 1) 5 gladiators with swords and shields battle it out. and 2) 5 gladiators with a broom, a toothpick, a feather, a toothbrush and a shovel battle it out. In what enviroment do you get the most hardened meta? Of course there are louds of odd ways to win in VTES, but there are limits to what are really viable. Feel free to elaborate. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Compare > 1) 5 gladiators with swords and shields battle it out. > and > 2) 5 gladiators with a broom, a toothpick, a feather, a toothbrush and a shovel battle it out. > In what enviroment do you get the most hardened meta? > I'd rather it compare with five gangsters with a gun in each hand pointing to each other. They shoot down the most dangerous first. In a quality meta, people should and would quickly put down Tier 1 decks, thus making funky decks quite likely to win if they divert attention or go gunning like there's no tomorrow. In a bad meta, people would concentrate playing their own game, thus shifting power to well-tuned decks instead of those trying to create a sense of relative safety. Sabbat. If this vampire's bleed is successful, he laughs manicly and untaps.

> Ashur wrote: > Compare > 1) 5 gladiators with swords and shields battle it out. > and > 2) 5 gladiators with a broom, a toothpick, a feather, a toothbrush and a shovel battle it out. > In what enviroment do you get the most hardened meta? > > Feel free to elaborate. > I'd hire the broom& toothpick wielders any day. Your enemies catch you and your gladiators unarmed at night. They laugh at you, then shortly thereafter die from wounds by teaspoons, keyholders and 5 color pencil. All the awesomeness for you. Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> Reyda wrote: > I'd hire the broom& toothpick wielders any day. > Your enemies catch you and your gladiators unarmed at night. They laugh at you, then shortly thereafter die from wounds by teaspoons, keyholders and 5 color pencil. All the awesomeness for you. > I do not understand. Is this some kind of joke? My post was an analogy for Vtes. In a Vtes context. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

> Ashur wrote: > > > Lönkka wrote: > > If there is nothing to report as things progress at snail's pace or less, there is, erm, nothing to report. > > > This is not the way to to it. The IC don´t communicate much at all, about anything. I don´t see why that should be good. > I'm all for improved communication. But how often you want the ICs to post the hourly/daily/weekly/monthly/yearly update? I'd assume that in vast majority of instances, epecially in the lower end of the spectrum, the update would be "The news is there is no news". Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > But how often you want the ICs to post the hourly/daily/weekly/monthly/yearly update? > > I'd assume that in vast majority of instances, epecially in the lower end of the spectrum, the update would be "The news is there is no news". > A monthly update don´t seem entirely unrealistic, considering the popularity of the game and so on. Even though there is no news on pod/danse, it seem approriate to confirm the organization is still active and doing SOMETHING, or at least striving to do something. Especially in times like these. "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

If there isn't news, then make some. The IC should start coordinating storylines, playtesting the next set, or anything to show that they're actually engaged with this game. Baron of Berkeley

> Ashur wrote: > Even though there is no news on pod/danse, it seem approriate to confirm the organization is still active and doing SOMETHING, or at least striving to do something. > YOU, me, Count Orlock and all the other VEKNers ARE the organization! Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > YOU, me, Count Orlock and all the other VEKNers ARE the organization! > Aw, so it's MY fault. Makes sense. You honestly don't see the difference between tournaments and games organized around local princes and the international organization that claims to be the spiritual successor to White Wolf? Yes, I absolutely plan on hosting events in the future, but I also have little impact on the community and do not have much political clout. Baron of Berkeley

Correct. We are the organization, but what are the statements of procedure the organization has in effect? The inherent problem is that the individual members of the organization do not have a say in decisions made by the organization. What do I as a simple member do if I wanted the tournament rules changed, cards banned from tournament play, establish a new role on the Inner Circle responsible for ZYX or wanted the cooperation with CCP canceled ?? … I am just making these up, but you get what I am trying to say. There should be a way for each VEKN member to make herself heard in structured manner. If I requested an update from committee XYZ on the status of topic ABC and n other members support that notion, it should happen. That is how democratic structures work. Next up are the trolls telling me ‘if you want to do it, please step up, claim responsibility, get involved ..’ and no, I don’t think the people currently doing these job are not doing a good job. I just believe that we as the organization need to ensure that there is no silent majority gradually leaving the VEKN, because they don’t feel represented or misinformed. -MV-

> Count wrote: > > > Lönkka wrote: > > YOU, me, Count Orlock and all the other VEKNers ARE the organization! > > > Aw, so it's MY fault. Makes sense. > You just happened to pipe along so I included you as another example of all of us. Call it unavoidable collateral damage if you will. > Count wrote: > You honestly don't see the difference between tournaments and games organized around local princes and the international organization that claims to be the spiritual successor to White Wolf? > Vast majority of action and activity in VEKN comes from root level. > Count wrote: > Yes, I absolutely plan on hosting events in the future, but I also have little impact on the community and do not have much political clout. > Like anyone has. Me I'm hardly responsible for myself. During the last EC's NC meeting I wasn't even able to sit at the table even though I was the first to mark my seat with almost a full beer bottle. I had to visit the cloakroom and when I got back my seat was taken by a greedy foreigner and I had to sit on the floor. That's how much political clout I have! > Count wrote: > The IC should start coordinating storylines, playtesting the next set, or anything to show that they're actually engaged with this game. > BTW the IC aren't responsible for storyline coordination or playtesting or planning cards. For those we have storyline coordinator as well as design team. I'm pretty sure that when there is any significant news that can be divulged, the great unwashed masses will hear about it pretty quickly. If VEKN is still negotiating with three different companies regarding Danse Macabre and the possible PoD, I'm pretty sure that it is good form to keep it under wraps until you can say damn deal done and then announce what the deal is about. (the first that can spot the musical reference in my comments above wins a banana. Note, offer not applicable to Swedes) Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > > > Ashur wrote: > > Even though there is no news on pod/danse, it seem approriate to confirm the organization is still active and doing SOMETHING, or at least striving to do something. > > > YOU, me, Count Orlock and all the other VEKNers ARE the organization! > Eh? So the IC and the design team is not in charge? I thought they were some kind of ruling body, among other things discussing with the pod-people, choosing not to publish Danse Macabre, etc? I´m confused. Again "My strategy? Luck is my strategy, of course."

Sure I do blame myself for not informing myself about the prospects of the game's staying alive. I am the VEKN, right. Irony put aside, I don't know about the state of V:tES, or about its future, but the state of this forum is beyond words. I still have the masochistic tendencies to browse through the topics from time to time but honestly all I see is a few trolls infesting every single one of them, always having something completely irrelevant to say (which is the essence of being a troll...) and other than that there are the cynics, the "caring guys" and the distant Inner Circle. I also asked for an update several months ago. Guess what - now I don't care anymore. I have this "need to spend money on a hobby", it so happenes that every month I usually spend a modest sum on cards. For some time now it have been spending it on other ccg's and I have every reason to believe that (even though I am not planning on selling my collection but passing it on to my children one day) V:tES is finished for me. I have sympathy for everyone fighting for the future of V:tES, but I also have only raised eybrows for everyone who doesn't understand that at this point the only merchandise the IC can sell is hope. But all is good. All it takes now is to embrace the fact that this is and will be just another dead game. "I like to think there always are ...possibilities." Spock

I'm consistently amazed at the lengths some of these board members will go to defend the status quo. If the VEKN doesn't actually support storylines, producing sets, or give tournament rulings, what exactly do they do? Complain that PCK is out to get them? They're pretty good at that. Baron of Berkeley

The only thing I need the VEKN for is to sanction a tournament, and as my playgroup could careless about tournaments, I don't need the VEKN for that either. Ultimately, if I want to have a specific storyline involving my city, I create it. If I want to introduce new cards, I create them. If I want to ban certain cards, I ban them. Unless my players protest and then I do the opposite. VEKN is not needed where I am concerned, so I half-listen and read everyone's elses posts for laughs. Prince of Dallas Toreador Grand Ball: Dallas August 13, 2022

> Count wrote: > I'm consistently amazed at the lengths some of these board members will go to defend the status quo. If the VEKN doesn't actually support storylines, producing sets, or give tournament rulings, what exactly do they do? Complain that PCK is out to get them? They're pretty good at that. > Ahem. I need to correct you here a bit. We (PCK) are not "out to get them". That is not our goal, and never was (though given past events, it might have been perceived that way). Our goal is to keep VTES alive, and provide interesting new stuff for players, which is carefully considered and properly balanced and tested. It goes without saying that Jeff, Eric and I have different design views compared to our former compatriots in the DT; that, in itself, is nothing negative. Regarding updates and communication: that is a phenomenon that is not really new. The VEKN has never been a democratic organization, and very often things got bogged down or projects were not pursued anymore. I can say that, because I myself have been IC member once. Anyway, I really hope VTES survives, and I do my part to make it happen. I mean, it would be a shame to *not* use my massive collection to play anymore. pckvtes.wordpress.com

> Count wrote: > I'm consistently amazed at the lengths some of these board members will go to defend the status quo. > There is an old proverb that springs to my mind "dogs bark but the caravan still trundles onward." The organization isn't supposed to be top heavy one but I occasionally get them impression that at least people seem to want a divine moseslike figures to lead them like a flock of sheep to the promised land of Golgonda. If you are unhappy how the organization is being run I dare suggest that you change your representative(s) in it. If the National Cordinators don't approve/trust the ICs I'm sure that they can give the old ones boot and elect new ones. So far I seem to recall that NCs have been unanimous in their support of the ICs so it might be somewhat of an uphill battle. Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > If the National Cordinators don't approve/trust the ICs I'm sure that they can give the old ones boot and elect new ones. > ... interesting. Is there a reference for this, saying that the IC is elected by the NCs? .. Just curious.. I assume the regular folks get no votes, princes get two etc. 

-double-

Yes, during the EC 2012 there was NC's meeting when this decision was made. (Every NC should know about this and should give the info to Princes etc etc. There was info on the forum) Simply: Chair/Vice-chair have 3 years cycle of election and next vote will be during NC meeting in Stockholm. Nc are electing by Princes in their native country. What about another IC members? I think that is in hands of Boss Regards Szewski

> Szewski wrote: > Yes, during the EC 2012 there was NC's meeting when this decision was made. > > (Every NC should know about this and should give the info to Princes etc etc. There was info on the forum) > > Simply: Chair/Vice-chair have 3 years cycle of election and next vote will be during NC meeting in Stockholm. > > Regards > Szewski > I don't believe the "minutes" of this meeting were ever posted. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

yes they are and still

and btw I sent pdf via email to every NC on the PlanetEarth!

You can ask Carl

> Szewski wrote: > You can ask Carl > Yeah, ask Carl! The mail was sent, correct. But I'm not sure if and where on this site the minutes were posted. *shrug* B-) pckvtes.wordpress.com

they are posted on NC forum, I checked twice a minute ago

I request to post the minutes from that meeting publicly.

vekn.net/index.php/forum/10-news-and-announcements/47090-qminutesq-from-ncs-meeting-during-ec-2012#47090 regards Szewski

hooray for transparency! even a monthly note saying "hey, there's nothing to report!" serves a purpose.

> self wrote: > hooray for transparency! even a monthly note saying "hey, there's nothing to report!" serves a purpose. > I'll remember about that

> Lönkka wrote: > If you are unhappy how the organization is being run I dare suggest that you change your representative(s) in it. If the National Cordinators don't approve/trust the ICs I'm sure that they can give the old ones boot and elect new ones. > When I used to be on the Inner Circle, I used to think that this was the case - that the Inner Circle members were elected by the NC's and were ultimately accountable to them. I thought that it was akin to a Board of Directors but apparently that is not the case. According to Johannes (in his response to you Lönkka), IC members are not elected. They are appointed by the chairman. Based on this model (which views IC members as cabinet appointees to the Chairperson), the NC's can not "give the old ones [the] boot." The appointment and dismissal of IC members is at the complete discretion of the chairperson. NC's can indirect affect the IC composition by voting on the chairperson (who decides on the IC's) or voicing their opinion, but they have no actual power over the appointment/dismissal of the other IC members. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

Correct, Eric. However the chairman is elected and can be given the boot AND the chairman (well I) will certainly not insist on any person having a specific IC position against the opposition of a majority of the NCs.

> echiang wrote: > According to Johannes (in his response to you Lönkka), IC members are not elected. They are appointed by the chairman. > Indeed, my bad -didn't actually take time to check this before answering and just remembered it wrong. Finnish Politics!