Card Idea: In Silence We Kill

Hi folks! You can see the card and my comments on my blog. Follow this link: In Silence We Kill NC for Hungary hunfragment.blogspot.com

It should cost a blood at least. More evidence that your deck need not be good in order to win: thelasombra.com/decks/twd.htm#2011tottco

It is definitely undercosted. It should require an infernal Assamite to play V:EKN Website Coordinator

If this is undercosted Immortaql Grapple should cost one blood, too. Let's say you use this with taste of death. Sure it's strong, but if this card would cost 1 blood, you have to play 2 cards, pay to blood to cause 2 agg damage wich still can be dodged and you will still face the risk to get hit back. NC for Hungary hunfragment.blogspot.com

> Mephistopheles wrote: > If this is undercosted Immortaql Grapple should cost one blood, too. Let's say you use this with taste of death. Sure it's strong, but if this card would cost 1 blood, you have to play 2 cards, pay to blood to cause 2 agg damage wich still can be dodged and you will still face the risk to get hit back. > Immortal Grapple has a range restriction. And is therefore played after range has been chosen (to close). The effect of the card you suggest cannot be circumvented by the opposing minion anyhow. V:EKN Website Coordinator

This is a classic example were having a 0 cost seems too strong (at least for you guys), but a cost of 1 blood would just make it tier2. Anyhow, I could live with 1 blood cost, but than you must have a Path in play otherwise it's not worth playing it. Together with the good Assamite strike cards you pay 2 blood to cause 2 agg damage or 3 normal which still can be dodged. And you still get hit back. Not worth playing it. NC for Hungary hunfragment.blogspot.com

Make it require both obf and qui and then its fine. obf/qui to the basic effect and OBF/QUI to the superior. Compare to Mind of the Wilds.

Or maybe strip the Maneuver from the card so that inferior effect would cost a blood. In Silence We Kill Combat Cost: 1 blood Only usable before range is chosen on the first round of combat. [obf] The opposing minion cannot strike to end combat this round. [OBF] As above, but this card costs 1 less blood. In Silence We Kill Combat Only usable before range is chosen on the first round of combat. [obf] The opposing minion cannot strike to end combat this round. [OBF] As above, and this vampire may burn 1 blood to get an optional maneuver this round. Jussi Hattara Webmaster Extraordinaire Finnish Politics!

I agree with Damnans about the cost and I think the effects should be reversed. Otherwise Weenie qui Rush (similar to & cheaper than Weenie Dragon Breath Rounds) would be much too easy. > In Silence We Kill > Combat > Only usable before range is chosen in the first round of combat. > [qui]This vampire can use a maneuver in the first round of combat. > [QUI]As above, but this vampire can burn a blood to prevent the opposing vampire from using Strike: Combat Ends during this combat. > The wording is actually not good, but you get the idea.

I get the idea with the weenie qui rush problem. But I don't like the burn a blood wording. Let the Path reduce the cost at least. A combat package that inflicts the same amount of damage than it costs to play it is doomed to be wallpaper, imo. NC for Hungary hunfragment.blogspot.com

I think the best way to fix assamite combat isn´t to make new cards. My proposal is quite simple, change combat rules so that first strike gets really first, that means bofore any other strike, combat ends included of course. Making new cards doesn´t make really sense, because VTES is no longer in print, but changing rules is quite easy. Inner Circle members of VEKN could make debate about it and vote any change in rules.

I'd make it a bit more versatile, limits the broken-ness of Weenie Qui (e.g. Insta-agg weenies) but also gets around two of the common foils for Assamite Combat. In Silence we Kill Combat Only usable in the Determine Range step. Maneuver As above and this minion may burn 1 blood to cancel a Strike: Dodge from the opposing minion later this round. As above and this minion may also cancel a Strike: Combat Ends from the opposing minion later this round. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

@Juggernaut1981: this seems very reasonable! But how about giving it a 1 blood cost instead of the burn a blood part? In exchange you could say that "only 1 In Silence We Kill can be played each round" NC for Hungary hunfragment.blogspot.com

The reason for the "may burn 1 blood" part is simple... you only pay when you're going to use it. And almost any card with a "cancel" effect (Thoughts Betrayed, Death Seeker, ((Temporis Shennanigans)), Charismatic Aura) all have a cost without a way to reduce it. So it seems fair to make this a genuine cost that can't be avoided. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

True, but again I have to come up with this: Taste of Death, Baal Bloody Talons, Vascular Explosion, etc all cost blood, too. So you play at least 2 cards and pay/burn 2 blood to cause 2-3 damage. Where is the gain? A card nerfed this way would become nothing more than a new wallpaper rare, imo. Combat is the hardest strategy to win with and it's key is good resources management. NC for Hungary hunfragment.blogspot.com

Pretty much every card in the game that does aggravated damage costs a blood, or is otherwise very restricted.

Nobody is arguing that Klaital. NC for Hungary hunfragment.blogspot.com

> Mephistopheles wrote: > Nobody is arguing that Klaital. > Well you were complaining there about baals an taste costing blood. I personally don't think there is anything wrong with assamites, they have won several tournaments too.

Yes, but you should have read all of the topic. I was referring that my suggested card shouldn't have to burn a blood. The blood cost for the other cards I just noted, never argued that they should cost less. Please take a look at all the Assamite decks that won a combat: they are all stealth bleed or stealth vote. Maybe a cel/gun black hand won once or so. NC for Hungary hunfragment.blogspot.com

It is a good card as it it, it would probably be better to swap inf and sup. Adding a cost of 1 blood is not necessary, since the card does nothing by itself except giving a maneuver (same as IG providing a press at superior). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

The other major "nerf defensive combat" cards cost. Immortal Grapple has the hidden cost of forcing you to take the opposing minions handstrike. Compare the card above to the following cards, I think you will see that the version presented above isn't out of comparison with these cards already printed. Charismatic Aura Type: Combat Requires: Auspex & Presence [aus] Burn 1 blood to cancel the opposing minion's strike card or grapple card as it is played (no cost is paid). A vampire may play only one Charismatic Aura at inferior each round. [AUS] Strike: combat ends. Death Seeker Type: Combat Requires: Salubri antitribu Cost: 1 blood Cancel a combat card played by the opposing minion as it is played (no cost is paid). A vampire can play only one Death Seeker each round. Disengage Type: Combat Do not replace until after combat. Press, only usable to end combat. Alternatively, burn 1 blood to cancel a grapple card (such as Immortal Grapple or Mighty Grapple) as it is played (no cost is paid for that card). Groundfighting Type: Combat Requires: anarch Requires a ready anarch. Do not replace until after combat. Maneuver or press or burn 1 blood to cancel a combat card played by the opposing minion that would restrict this anarch's choice of strikes this round as it is played. Rigor Mortis Type: Combat Requires: Thanatosis/Presence Cost: 1 blood Only usable before range is determined. A minion can play only one Rigor Mortis each round. The opposing minion cannot use any additional strikes this round. [thn] As above, with an optional press. [THN] As [thn] above, and once each round this combat, you may cancel a maneuver used by the opposing minion. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

Cancelling "when played" is stronger than preventing the use. The closest card is Rigor Mortis which provides a maneuver and press, and requires only the inferior level of the discipline to prevent the use of additional. Besides, it's a bad card Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

If you notice, plenty of those other cards involve cancelling SOME cards (particularly Grapples & strikes). This card provides a maneuver (usually a step to countering a grapple or using a grapple but not guaranteed) and it allows you to burn 1 blood to cancel one type of strike at basic (S:D) and another at superios (S:CE). S:D generally is a lesser effect than S:CE, since the two most common S:CE provide an untap (Majesty) or continue the action (Form of Mist/Mirror Image). So, I think it's very comparable to the cards above and at least as functional as Charismatic Aura or MORE usable. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

The maneuver, and the combined versatility it provides is the problem, to my eyes. Immortal Grapple provides a lot of opportunity cost. Being at short, it restricts your choice of strike too (unlike this) and taking their Hand Strike, which might hurt more. This paired with Acrobatics (or heaven forbid, Shadow Strike, or using the maneuver to go to long to Taste of Death!) would be quite probably terrifying. I like the idea of QUI having some form of S:CE preventation, but as the intial wording stands, you'd drop 10 even in a stealth bleed deck just to prevent other people using Majesty for the untap. QUI having restriction cards is fine, because each one is powerful in it's own way (Silence of Death, for example) but this would otherwise provide too many options in one of them. Here we go again.... Dave Knowles (Advanced) Sabbat Bishop of Manchester

> Shockwave wrote: > I like the idea of QUI having some form of S:CE preventation, but as the intial wording stands, you'd drop 10 even in a stealth bleed deck just to prevent other people using Majesty for the untap. > If you play b&s, you won't be blocked and the ten copies will jam your hand. Otherwise, it is comparable to psyche! except you can play more than one per combat just to unjam. Restrict it to & per combat, and it will be fine. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Also, if we're talking about Jugger's proposition, there shouldn't be a manouver card at inferior obfuscate without a blood cost or other drawbacks. [obf] Manouvers either cost blood or can only be played on first round of combat, or something similar at the moment. And for what it's worth, I think they made Outside the Hourglass a bit too good - there should've been a restriction to the dodge at obf! "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

I like the idea. My contribution (modeled using IG) In Silence We Kill Combat Only usable at long range before strikes are chosen Minions opposing this vampire cannot end combat as a strike this round. A vampire may play only one In Silence We Kill each round. As above, if another round of combat occurs, that round is at long range; skip the determine range step for that round.

> simcof wrote: > I like the idea. My contribution (modeled using IG) > > In Silence We Kill > Combat > Only usable at long range before strikes are chosen > Minions opposing this vampire cannot end combat as a strike this round. A vampire may play only one In Silence We Kill each round. > As above, if another round of combat occurs, that round is at long range; skip the determine range step for that round. This vampire also has an optional maneuver in that round. > They can still dodge?

yeah they can still dodge. quietus throws aggravated damage around so I think there should still be some option.

superior Shadow Feint can get past dodge