We had a rather unfortunate situation come up at our tournament over the weekend. One of our inexperienced players was convinced by the other players on his table that Theft of Vitae does not work against allies. Since one of the decks on the table was a Shambling Hordes deck, this rather changed how the game played out. There was no request for a ruling, though, so the judge wasn't called in for this and it only came out that it had happened in later discussions after the game, when it was far too late.
Any suggestions for how to avoid similar screw-ups in the future? Other than trying to encourage people to call for a judge if they're at all uncertain, I'm not sure what we can do, but that some of our experienced players are getting what is hardly a corner-case bit of the rules wrong is a cause for concern.
--
National Coordinator
South Africa
When in doubt about a rule / card / ruling / ..., call a judge.
It's also interesting to know that there is a penalty for misrepresenting the rules ( Judge's Guide - 114 ).
> drnlmza wrote:
> One of our inexperienced players was convinced by the other players on his table that Theft of Vitae does not work against allies.
>
That sounds like there was not only 1 inexperienced player at this table but 5. If you are sure that everyone acted in good faith, then there is not much to do. What happened happened, they will know the rules better next time.
If someone mislead the player who did not know the rules on purpose, then it is cheating of the worst kind.
@Pascal: maybe the wording of that rule 6.4.5 could be improved. With the parentheses, someone who does not know the cards might understand that there are Steal Life effects that work similarly to Steal Blood, not that Steal Blood can be used on allies. Also, it is not written that when a vampire steals from an ally (or conversely), the counters change kind. With the rule as written only, the counters should be lost since vampires do not have life. The example provided shows how both points work but it is not the role of an example to introduce new rules.
Suggested change: from
This effect moves blood counters (or life counters) from the target to the striking minion.
to
This effect moves blood counters from the target to the striking minion. It can also be used to steal life from an ally. The stolen counters become blood or life counters on the striking minion, whichever is relevant to him.
I think that the current ruling is really quite clear.
There is even an example of a combat between Cohn Rose and a mage ally. Making it extremely clear IMHO.
If the players are not familiar with the rulebook or that tule (6.4.5. Strike Effects/Steal Blood) obviously no amount of rewording/explaing will suffice...
Finnish Politics!
If any player on the table was aware of the proper rulings and allowed the game to continue with an inaccurate set of rules they are guilty one or both these infractions from the Judge's Guide.
163. Cheating - Fraud
Definition:
A player intentionally misrepresents rules, procedures, personal information, or any other relevant tournament information.
164. Cheating - Collusion
Definition:
Players agree to alter, predetermine, or otherwise illegally establish the results of a game.
> drnlmza wrote:
> ...., but that some of our experienced players are getting what is hardly a corner-case bit of the rules wrong is a cause for concern.
>
Boris and Wedge bring up some interesting points.
Did all five players not know the rule for theft of vitae verse allies?
Yup have to agree with Boris and Wedge, they were 1)inexperienced,2) in collusion, or 3)or not paying attention when it was pointed out to the player. The first can be corrected with just reading updates/rules. The second has to be penalized by the judge, the last well we cant do anything about that.
> TorranceCircle wrote:
> Did all five players not know the rule for theft of vitae verse allies?
>
The inexperienced player probably didn't know the rule, since he is still quite new in general and has only started playing Thaumaturgy decks very recently. The other players at the table have all been playing for several years, so they should have known the rule, but all claimed afterwards to have been unaware or unsure of it. Why no-one thought to call the judge as a result is far less clear, but it didn't happen.
Since I was not at the table in question, I can't comment on how the actual conversation at the table went down. Certainly the new player believed, after talking to the table, that theft did not work against allies. Whether this was because one player misled him (intentionally or not) and no-one else was paying attention and pointed out the error, or the entire table got it wrong, I can't say. Either way, there was a significant rules screw-up that may very well have cost a player a game win and we didn't pick it up until far too late.
What I'm looking for is any ideas for helping prevent a repeat. Currently, the best I've come up with is "Tell players they really, really should always call the judge" and "Tell players to please, please read the rulebook and know how your cards are supposed to work". Neither of these looks likely to actually help, unfortunately.
Having more people acting as judges and not involved in the tournament to pick up things like this would obviously help, but our players numbers are not high enough that we can comfortably have 2 or 3 of our more experienced players sit out on a regular basis.
--
National Coordinator
South Africa
I don't know who does the judge thing, but in some circumstance judge being more friendly and more easy to contact can go a long way to make people call them more. Of course, it may be already the case here.
this is hindsight and all that, but Theft of Vitae should've been printed as "steal blood or life" a long time ago.
it's the only mechanic in the game where blood and life seem to be interchangeable, while every other card that specifies blood only refers to vampire blood.
No:
>
> Cryptic Mission
>
> +1 stealth action.
> Burn 1 blood on a vampire, or do 1 unpreventable damage to any ally or retainer.
> As above, and the acting vampire gains 1 blood from the blood bank.
>
Cryptic mission has two different effects, one against vampires and one against allies. They turn out to be very similar but both are described on the card and when it says "blood", it means vampire blood only, not blood or life.
> Haze wrote:
> this is hindsight and all that, but Theft of Vitae should've been printed as "steal blood or life" a long time ago.
>
> it's the only mechanic in the game where blood and life seem to be interchangeable, while every other card that specifies blood only refers to vampire blood.
>
There's several other cards that steal blood that don't specify 'blood or life', all of which can be used to steal life.
Absorb the Mind at [myt]
Call the Lamprey (at basic this only effects allies)
Diversion at [tha]
Drain Essence
Kraken`s Kiss at [VIC]
Tongue of the Serpent