Okay so I just want to make sure this play is legal;
*note: I don't know how to post a link to cardtext,sorry.
If I have talbot successfully recruit a renegade garou and then use freak drive to untap and then use abomination to burn the garou and create an abomination, can she use freak drive again to untap her and play compel the spirit returning the burned garou to play, all in the same turn?
Hindsight is foresight because we walk in circles
> Agamemnon wrote:
> Okay so I just want to make sure this play is legal;
>
> *note: I don't know how to post a link to cardtext,sorry.
>
Juste copy/paste the card text here. Card texts are available here .
Name: Abomination
Cardtype: Action
Cost: 1 pool
+1 stealth action. Requires a ready non-sterile vampire.
Burn a ready untapped werewolf ally you control to put this card in play. It becomes a unique Independent Abomination with 4 capacity, superior Protean [PRO] and +1 strength. Move up to 4 blood from the acting vampire to this vampire. This vampire gets an additional strike each round and an optional maneuver each combat. He may enter combat with a ready minion as a action.
Name: Compel the Spirit
Cardtype: Action
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Necromancy
+1 stealth action.
[nec] Move an ally or retainer that was burned from play since your last turn from your ash heap to your hand.
[NEC] As above, but move it to your ready region (ignore requirements and cost) with X life from the blood bank, where X is the starting life of the ally or retainer. If it is a retainer, place it on the acting minion.
> Agamemnon wrote:
> If I have talbot successfully recruit a renegade garou and then use freak drive to untap and then use abomination to burn the garou and create an abomination, can she use freak drive again to untap her and play compel the spirit returning the burned garou to play, all in the same turn?
>
The garou was "burned from play since your last turn" so it meets the requirements of Compel the Spirit.
And since recruiting the Garou and playing Compel the Spirit are not the same action, the NRA doesn't prevent her from doing so.
So yes, it's legal.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > Agamemnon wrote:
> > Okay so I just want to make sure this play is legal;
> >
> > *note: I don't know how to post a link to cardtext,sorry.
> >
> Juste copy/paste the card text here. Card texts are available here .
>
> Name: Abomination
> Cardtype: Action
> Cost: 1 pool
> +1 stealth action. Requires a ready non-sterile vampire.
> Burn a ready untapped werewolf ally you control to put this card in play. It becomes a unique Independent Abomination with 4 capacity, superior Protean [PRO] and +1 strength. Move up to 4 blood from the acting vampire to this vampire. This vampire gets an additional strike each round and an optional maneuver each combat. He may enter combat with a ready minion as a action.
>
> Name: Compel the Spirit
> Cardtype: Action
> Cost: 1 blood
> Discipline: Necromancy
> +1 stealth action.
> [nec] Move an ally or retainer that was burned from play since your last turn from your ash heap to your hand.
> [NEC] As above, but move it to your ready region (ignore requirements and cost) with X life from the blood bank, where X is the starting life of the ally or retainer. If it is a retainer, place it on the acting minion.
>
> > Agamemnon wrote:
> > If I have talbot successfully recruit a renegade garou and then use freak drive to untap and then use abomination to burn the garou and create an abomination, can she use freak drive again to untap her and play compel the spirit returning the burned garou to play, all in the same turn?
> >
> The garou was "burned from play since your last turn" so it meets the requirements of Compel the Spirit.
>
> And since recruiting the Garou and playing Compel the Spirit are not the same action, the NRA doesn't prevent her from doing so.
>
> So yes, it's legal.
>
Incorrect.
In the first place, Abomination burns a ready werewolf ally, which the Renegade Garou isn't :
>
> Rulebook wrote:
> Allies are action cards that become minions in their own right, capable of acting and blocking independently of the minion that recruits them. The recruit ally action has a default +1 stealth.
>
> But if Talbot played Abomination on a Renegade Garou played a turn earlier, the play is legal.
>
> To recruit an ally from your hand, play the card and tap the acting minion. If the action is successful, the ally is placed in your uncontrolled region, even though it is controlled, to indicate that it cannot act this turn (and the cost, if any, is paid). If the action is unsuccessful, the card is burned (see Resolve the Action, sec. 6.2.3). Only one ally card can be recruited per action. Note that allies brought into play by other means are able to act on the same turn, by default.
>
> At the end of the turn, any allies that were placed in your uncontrolled region (to indicate that they cannot act) are moved to your ready region.
>
However, if Talbot plays Abomination on a Renegade Garou recruited a turn (or more) earlier, the play is legal. "Since your last turn" is equivalent to "since the end of your last discard phase".
> Ankha wrote:
> The garou was "burned from play since your last turn" so it meets the requirements of Compel the Spirit.
>
> And since recruiting the Garou and playing Compel the Spirit are not the same action, the NRA doesn't prevent her from doing so.
>
> So yes, it's legal.
>
I believe it's not, because the Garou is not controlled yet (allies going to the uncontrolled region when recruted, IIRC). So you can, but not in one turn. You need to recruit the garou, and do the abomination / compel trick on another turn
My mistake, I focused on Compel the Spirit, skipping the Abomation "ready" part (see also the many topics about Cry Wolf that should have rung a bell).
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Rulebook wrote:
> To recruit an ally from your hand, play the card and tap the acting minion. If the action is successful, the ally is placed in your uncontrolled region, even though it is controlled, to indicate that it cannot act this turn (and the cost, if any, is paid). If the action is unsuccessful, the card is burned (see Resolve the Action, sec. 6.2.3). Only one ally card can be recruited per action. Note that allies brought into play by other means are able to act on the same turn, by default.
>
> At the end of the turn, any allies that were placed in your uncontrolled region (to indicate that they cannot act) are moved to your ready region.
>
Now that the game has allies that can go to torpor (please read until the end before strangling me ), wouldn't it be clearer to put the new ally in the Incapacitated region instead of the Uncontrolled? That would make the different regions more consistent: everything in the Uncontrolled region is indeed uncontrolled and every minion that is controlled but not ready goes to the Torpor/Incapacitated region.
> Pascal wrote:
> However, if Talbot plays Abomination on a Renegade Garou recruited a turn (or more) earlier, the play is legal. "Since your last turn" is equivalent to "since the end of your last discard phase".
>
Is that so? Wouldn't be 'since your previous untap phase?' As I understand, 'since the end of your last discard phase' would make me unable to retrieve an ally burned in my previous minion phase.
Suppose I have a ready Muddled Vampire Hunter. On turn X he enters combat and dies. Can't I compel him on my minion phase in the turn X+1, since my he was burnt before my last discard phase?
Am I missing something?
Name: Compel the Spirit
Cardtype: Action
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Necromancy
+1 stealth action.
[nec] Move an ally or retainer that was burned from play since your last turn from your ash heap to your hand.
[NEC] As above, but move it to your ready region (ignore requirements and cost) with X life from the blood bank, where X is the starting life of the ally or retainer. If it is a retainer, place it on the acting minion.
> MTacla wrote:
>
> > Pascal wrote:
> > However, if Talbot plays Abomination on a Renegade Garou recruited a turn (or more) earlier, the play is legal. "Since your last turn" is equivalent to "since the end of your last discard phase".
> >
> Is that so? Wouldn't be 'since your previous untap phase?' As I understand, 'since the end of your last discard phase' would make me unable to retrieve an ally burned in my previous minion phase.
>
> Suppose I have a ready Muddled Vampire Hunter. On turn X he enters combat and dies. Can't I compel him on my minion phase in the turn X+1, since my he was burnt before my last discard phase?
>
> Am I missing something?
>
> Name: Compel the Spirit
> Cardtype: Action
> Cost: 1 blood
> Discipline: Necromancy
> +1 stealth action.
> [nec] Move an ally or retainer that was burned from play since your last turn from your ash heap to your hand.
> [NEC] As above, but move it to your ready region (ignore requirements and cost) with X life from the blood bank, where X is the starting life of the ally or retainer. If it is a retainer, place it on the acting minion.
>
[LSJ 20010408] wrote:
>
> > > usin Compel the Spirit to return an ally to play if the ally goes to your
> > > [ash heap] in your turn and then in your following turn you play CtS does that
> > > class as "since your last turn" or not...
> Not.
>
> > > or would you have to have then ally go to your discard "after" your last
> > > turn?
> After.
>
> > > the Question came up at the Canberra Tournement and the organiser stated
> > > that it wouldn't include your last turn but that doesn't seem right to me
> It's right.
>
> > CtS works like this: if your ally [burns on your turn] then you must use
> > CtS in that minion pahse to recover it. If the ally dies outside your turn
> > you must CtS your next (coming) turn.
> Correct.
>
> Non-existant user wrote:
> Now that the game has allies that can go to torpor (please read until the end before strangling me ), wouldn't it be clearer to put the new ally in the Incapacitated region instead of the Uncontrolled? That would make the different regions more consistent: everything in the Uncontrolled region is indeed uncontrolled and every minion that is controlled but not ready goes to the Torpor/Incapacitated region.
>
I have no idea what you are trying to achieve. What has uncontrolled to do with Torpor/Incapacitated? Based on what rule would you move from Torpor/Incapacitated to ready? The uncontrolled region serves a purpose (delaying the "arrival") while Torpor/Incapacitated serves a whole other purpose (making minion permanently unavailable unless rescued).
Of course you could say "At the end of the turn all minions in the Torpor/Incapacitated region that were influenced/recruited this turn move to the ready region". Which is awkward and should confuse newer players even more. Also not sure what kind of loopholes it might open.
> johannes wrote:
> I have no idea what you are trying to achieve. What has uncontrolled to do with Torpor/Incapacitated? Based on what rule would you move from Torpor/Incapacitated to ready? The uncontrolled region serves a purpose (delaying the "arrival") while Torpor/Incapacitated serves a whole other purpose (making minion permanently unavailable unless rescued).
>
I am trying to find a way to prevent the question in that thread from occuring every month. With the rules as written only there is no way to decide whether the ally is ready or not.
Actually the only important facts rulewise are: the ally is controlled but not ready, it becomes ready at the end of the turn. The "ready" part is not written in the current rules so it is not surprising that people keep asking.
Where you put the card is only a tool to remember (most players I know just put the card directly in the ready region and the table remembers anyway ). I find the Torpor/Incapacitated region is better suited to the task than the Uncontrolled because cards there have the same status as the ally: controlled but not ready. If the recruited ally came to play in the Incapacitated region, I don't think anyone would wonder whether he is ready or not.
> Of course you could say "At the end of the turn all minions in the Torpor/Incapacitated region that were influenced/recruited this turn move to the ready region". Which is awkward and should confuse newer players even more. Also not sure what kind of loopholes it might open.
>
Easier than that: at the end of the turn, move all non-Imbued allies in your Incapacitated region to the ready region.
Just to clarify a bit from Pascal's answer:
>
> Rulebook wrote:
> To recruit an ally from your hand, play the card and tap the acting minion. If the action is successful, the ally is placed in your uncontrolled region, even though it is controlled, to indicate that it cannot act this turn (and the cost, if any, is paid). If the action is unsuccessful, the card is burned (see Resolve the Action, sec. 6.2.3). Only one ally card can be recruited per action. Note that allies brought into play by other means are able to act on the same turn, by default.
>
> At the end of the turn, any allies that were placed in your uncontrolled region (to indicate that they cannot act) are moved to your ready region.
>
(emphasis Pascal's)
The parts you highlighted are not enough to prove anything. They say that the ally is not in the ready region, not that he is not a ready minion. The two concepts might have very close names but logically they are two different objects and the rules don't specify how they interact: there is no written definition of what a ready minion is. Moreover the very same paragraph tells you to put a controlled minion in the uncontrolled region, so assuming any firm link between the minion's status and the region he is in is a bold assumption at least.
Looking for hints in the rest of the rules, one can find the definition of the ready region in the glossary:
>
> Section wrote:
> Ready Region: Area containing a Methuselah's minions that are not in torpor.
>
This looks like ready minions are defined as not being in torpor. Since there is no written definition of a ready minion and one is needed to answer the question, which one to choose?
a) a ready minion is a minion in the ready region,
b) a ready minion is a minion not in torpor.
Both definitions seem just as intuitive to me but they lead to different answers. The answer to the question "is the ally ready when recruited" is not written in the rules. If the rule is that the ally is not ready, then it needs to be written explicitely.
> Non-existant user wrote:
> Just to clarify a bit from Pascal's answer:
> >
> > Rulebook wrote:
> > To recruit an ally from your hand, play the card and tap the acting minion. If the action is successful, the ally is placed in your uncontrolled region, even though it is controlled, to indicate that it cannot act this turn (and the cost, if any, is paid). If the action is unsuccessful, the card is burned (see Resolve the Action, sec. 6.2.3). Only one ally card can be recruited per action. Note that allies brought into play by other means are able to act on the same turn, by default.
> >
> > At the end of the turn, any allies that were placed in your uncontrolled region (to indicate that they cannot act) are moved to your ready region.
> >
> (emphasis Pascal's)
>
> The parts you highlighted are not enough to prove anything. They say that the ally is not in the ready region, not that he is not a ready minion. The two concepts might have very close names but logically they are two different objects and the rules don't specify how they interact: there is no written definition of what a ready minion is. Moreover the very same paragraph tells you to put a controlled minion in the uncontrolled region, so assuming any firm link between the minion's status and the region he is in is a bold assumption at least.
>
> Looking for hints in the rest of the rules, one can find the definition of the ready region in the glossary:
> >
> > Section wrote:
> > Ready Region: Area containing a Methuselah's minions that are not in torpor.
> >
> This looks like ready minions are defined as not being in torpor. Since there is no written definition of a ready minion and one is needed to answer the question, which one to choose?
> a) a ready minion is a minion in the ready region,
> b) a ready minion is a minion not in torpor.
>
> Both definitions seem just as intuitive to me but they lead to different answers. The answer to the question "is the ally ready when recruited" is not written in the rules. If the rule is that the ally is not ready, then it needs to be written explicitely.
>
a) is the correct answer. b) is incomplete.
Rulebook 2.3 Play Area
>
> Ready (Controlled)
> Uncontrolled (Face down)Torpor (Controlled)
>
(please notice that any Imbued-related rule can be found in the Imbued appendix).
If you want to define "ready" with some "not"s, the definition would be:
"A ready minion is a minion in a play area, but not in torpor and not in the uncontrolled area."
> Pascal wrote:
> a) is the correct answer. b) is incomplete.
>
I know that, but how do you prove it using the rules only? This is not some obscure card messing with the game, it is a core mechanic. It is not normal that the rules are not self-sufficient on that matter.
Rulebook 2.3 Play Area
>
> Ready (Controlled)
> Uncontrolled (Face down)Torpor (Controlled)
>
That is the regions again, not the minion status.
>
> If you want to define "ready" with some "not"s, the definition would be:
> "A ready minion is a minion in a play area, but not in torpor and not in the uncontrolled area."
>
I don't want to define ready with "not's", I want to define ready or to cleary state that the ally is not ready once recruited (I don't think it happens anywhere else in the game). Choose the wording you prefer, but WRITE IT DOWN SOMEWHERE!
Another option is to change rule 6.1.5 from:
the ally is placed in your uncontrolled region, even though it is controlled, to indicate that it cannot act this turn
to:
the ally is placed in your uncontrolled region, even though it is controlled, to indicate that it is not ready
> Non-existant user wrote:
> Another option is to change rule 6.1.5 from:
>
> ...the ally is placed in your uncontrolled region, even though it is controlled, to indicate that it cannot act this turn...
>
> to:
>
> ...the ally is placed in your uncontrolled region, even though it is controlled, to indicate that it is not ready...
>
An excellent correction, Boris! Hurrah for constructive use of the forums!!!
Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
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