Hi,
After many demo games, I've realized that the game needs a simplified version for new players. New players are often lost in the multitude of things to quickly assimilate and can't focus on basic mecanisms such as stealth vs intercept when they must be careful at the same time of disciplines, inferior/superior effects.
I've designed the following cards in order to focus on action/reaction, combat and political actions, and by explicitely describe the card (things I would do orally previously and which leads to some loss of time)
There will be 4 decks (Tremere, Brujah, Ventrue and Follower of Set) whose decklist will be provided later. The idea is to familiarize new players with existing cards (though some have a slightly altered effect) and coherent clan tactics.
You'll find a printable version at www.vekn.fr/VTEM/vtemcrypt.pdf and www.vekn.fr/VTEM/vtemlib.pdf .
The rules are:
- 30 starting pool (there is no card allowing to regain pool, except the Parity Shift)
- 4 influences even on first turn
- no master phase
- no additional strikes nor press
- no discipline
Here's a low-quality preview:
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Great job
Maybe you could improve the consistency on the wording: on the first page of minion cards there are parentheses missing around the redundant requirements (can't play intercept or stealth if not yet needed can't prevent if hasn't taken damage,...). Undead Strength has a Strike step requirement but the other strikes don't. Maybe add a requirement that Bonding can only be used during a bleed action?
Theft of Vitae is completely broken in your card pool: the only strike that works at both close and long range, brings a total gain of 3 (burn 2 blood and gain 2 blood) when all other cards only do +1, unavoidable since you don't have dodge or combat ends,... If you want to keep combat simple, I think you should remove it because even at inferior, it is still too much better than Undead Strength/Skin of Rock.
Hesha probably needs a boost. His special is not good in a game without blood dolls and where only 3 cards cost blood. Maybe switch to another FoS?
Thanks for the feedback. I'll update the card texts for more consistency (a fresh eye is always useful for that).
> Non-existant user wrote:
> Theft of Vitae is completely broken in your card pool: the only strike that works at both close and long range, brings a total gain of 3 (burn 2 blood and gain 2 blood) when all other cards only do +1, unavoidable since you don't have dodge or combat ends,... If you want to keep combat simple, I think you should remove it because even at inferior, it is still too much better than Undead Strength/Skin of Rock.
>
It needs some balancing, true. Originally, it was strength+2 for Undead Strength (which may be too much), and steal 1 blood for Theft (I'll switch back to 1 blood).
Don't forget the decks will be balanced in quantity (there'll be more undead strength than theft).
> Non-existant user wrote:
> Hesha probably needs a boost. His special is not good in a game without blood dolls and where only 3 cards cost blood. Maybe switch to another FoS?
>
The goal was to introduce some different effects on vampire, I don't think it will change much on a game that Hesha's special is not that useful.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
I think there other ways to simplify the game for new players. My first recommendation is to give them a simple OBF-DEM deck with few moving parts but a handful of useful cards (e.g. Blood Dolls) and some simple combat cards (No Trace, Lucky Blow being examples). It teaches one of the things many players need to remember: Prey is Left. It also teaches: Action, Action Modifiers, Bleed, Stealth and Intercept. They can find it boring after a handful of games, however it's a great start.
I then like to add in the next stage by handing them a moderately forward facing Ventrue deck. This allows me to mix in FOR prevent as an aspect of combat and the idea of reactions such as Deflection. It also adds some interest because they are now using other cards (e.g. Govern the Unaligned) and even cards such as Seduction and possibly Freak Drive.
Finally something direct, but also more complex is the next stage: Toreador Vote Decks. Usually using mild static votes and a strong vote-push angle and mostly exploiting KRC and Con Boon as the key votes.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
It's basically what the demo decks do (badly) but it's already too much to assimilate for new players, not talking about the length of the demo games.
The goal here is to make it a very quick game to understand (everything is written on cards) and to play.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> It's basically what the demo decks do (badly) but it's already too much to assimilate for new players, not talking about the length of the demo games.
>
> The goal here is to make it a very quick game to understand (everything is written on cards) and to play.
>
The length of a demo game can be shortened if you only allow one or two learning players in such a game. The other players should be experienced ones, of course. And there should be one non-playing person per learning player to explain them everything they have to do each turn and out of turn.
V:EKN Website Coordinator
i like this angle in some regard. when i would teach new people how to play magic years ago, it would be all vanilla creatures, simple instants and sorceries, and mono color decks.
what i don't like about this angle is its by itself. this should be game 1. then add the rest of combat (presses, addiditonals, maybe dodge, but maybe not s:ce, it takes away the attrition purpose of combat). i've found combat easier to teach than politics with vtes.
then with the third game, add disciplines. this would basically mean the players add more combat cards to their decks after the first round of the demo, and switch out their deck for the full rules demo going into the third round. maybe winner gets an actual starter or something if demos are done at a convention. its nearly impossible to get a full grasp on the game in less than a few weeks, and way longer to really comprehend it. but getting all the basics down in the course of a few hours would probably draw in more players than just using demo decks and having the whole mess on their plate at once.
masters etc could be taught later, since "you play one each turn right after you untap" is simple enough for those, and pool gain is self explanitory if they've played a few simplified games already.
> Damnans wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > It's basically what the demo decks do (badly) but it's already too much to assimilate for new players, not talking about the length of the demo games.
> >
> > The goal here is to make it a very quick game to understand (everything is written on cards) and to play.
> >
> The length of a demo game can be shortened if you only allow one or two learning players in such a game. The other players should be experienced ones, of course. And there should be one non-playing person per learning player to explain them everything they have to do each turn and out of turn.
>
This requires a lot of people for a demo, when usually I'm alone.
As a new player (in other games), I don't really like to have someone behind me telling me what I can do or not. That's why I prefered to move it on the cards so people can make decision by themselves.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
I wouldn't have them "hovering over and directing every decision" but more of a "1 per player vizier" where you can. If you can't, then get another player (just one more) who can be the "vizier" to the others. Just someone to point out stuff like "You can't play that one right now" or "Yes, the card does what you just whispered to me", etc.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
That's an other way of doing things, requiring some extra players.
Do you think the cards are not enough self-explanatory to allow players to figure out by themselves how to play them?
Basically, I want to replace your "vizier" by printed text.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
I think that having the "vizier" gives them experience of the 'real game' with help. Instead of like the old "D&D for beginners" and "D&D Advanced"...
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
I wouldn't remove disciplines from basics. This should be implemented from the very begining. It's one of the fundamentals of vtes. If it's too complicated for your players remove inferior/ superior but stick to discipline requirement
> alek wrote:
> I wouldn't remove disciplines from basics. This should be implemented from the very begining. It's one of the fundamentals of vtes. If it's too complicated for your players remove inferior/ superior but stick to discipline requirement
>
Same thoughts here.
I understand you want to make it simple. But trying to teach a game which revolves around disciplines without teaching disciplines is kinda absurd.
Trying to simplify the game, you can read the old v:tes rulebook wich adds very interesting stuff under the section "Basic Game".
If you want to make a v:tes light, use less different cards, and less disciplines. Also, a clause like "I play only one modifier or reaction card per action" can be ok if it's to learn the intercept/stealth game without flooding the players with tons of informations.
Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
Hey guys, you know, this topic is not about whether you like my system or not. I don't force anyone to use it nor claim it's the best.
I stated how I wanted it to work. All I want is 1/ a fresh eye on the cards so I miss nothing and 2/ to share it with people that may be interested in it. I don't want to change the core, so if you guys think you won't use it, don't waste your time with comments I'll ignore.
Now, I've already explained my choices, I could give arguments for or against introducing disciplines but 1/ it's a waste of time 2/ it's subjective (because it comes from my demo-ing experience).
So, once again I'm not interested in comments saying "I won't do it that way", just do your own stuff if you think it's better.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
And if it wasn't clear, it's meant for absolute beginners that know nothing about the game so they can grasp some basics.
Then you can progressively add disciplines, then master, clans...
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Is there a reason why the Tremere crypt costs only 18 while all the others cost 20? You might want to adjust the costs:
-Carna +1
-Theo Bell -1
-Ventrue stay the same (that's the price you pay for titles)
-Hesha -1
You might also have a problem with politics: the Ventrue have 3 votes and the three other clans combined only 2, so they have an easy vote lock and the referendum phase will be ignored.
I've noticed the crypt size difference, but I think it won't change much. Your tweaks are interesting though, I'll try both.
As for politics, I wanted the Ventrue to have the Edge in it and force the Brujah somehow to rush the Ventrue. Nevertheless, an extra vote should be added to the other clans.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
I was just pointing that there is a system, that already exists, and that is suitable to teach to newbies. It's called basic vtes. It's in the old rulebooks.
> I've realized that the game needs a simplified version for new players
>
Players who cannot understand disciplines ? I 'd suggest you stop teaching to dumb people.
the level of animosity you have against me is incredible. Relax, just spank the monkey from time to time.
Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier
Hm, the "you" wasn't directed against you, Reyda, it was general ("vous") (sorry for the confusion). (Though I admit some animosity against the trolling Reyda, but it's more against trolls as general But since you weren't trolling at that time...)
Thanks for the link in the old rulebook btw.
> Reyda wrote:
> Players who cannot understand disciplines ? I 'd suggest you stop teaching to dumb people.
>
Go and tell that to new players, will you? And they understand them, but it's a bit too much information at the same time. The comparison with vanilla magic creatures (without colors) to learn Magic was quite good.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > Damnans wrote:
> >
> > The length of a demo game can be shortened if you only allow one or two learning players in such a game. The other players should be experienced ones, of course. And there should be one non-playing person per learning player to explain them everything they have to do each turn and out of turn.
> >
> This requires a lot of people for a demo, when usually I'm alone.
> As a new player (in other games), I don't really like to have someone behind me telling me what I can do or not. That's why I prefered to move it on the cards so people can make decision by themselves.
>
Making decisions is not so important in your first game of V:TES. The most important thing is to properly learn game mechanics. Strategy is secondary.
On the other hand, requiring "a lot of people" for a demo game may be an issue if you want to teach the game to many players. But if you are only going to teach VTES to a coupple of players, you can have them play in a casual game with experienced players.
V:EKN Website Coordinator
> Damnans wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> >
> > > Damnans wrote:
> > >
> > > The length of a demo game can be shortened if you only allow one or two learning players in such a game. The other players should be experienced ones, of course. And there should be one non-playing person per learning player to explain them everything they have to do each turn and out of turn.
> > >
> > >
> > This requires a lot of people for a demo, when usually I'm alone.
> > As a new player (in other games), I don't really like to have someone behind me telling me what I can do or not. That's why I prefered to move it on the cards so people can make decision by themselves.
> >
> Making decisions is not so important in your first game of V:TES. The most important thing is to properly learn game mechanics. Strategy is secondary.
>
Usually, "vizier" players tend to tell more what people should do (strategically) rather than what they can do. By "make decision by themselves", I mean they have enough informations to understand the mecanics from what is written and try to figure out at the same time what options they have (because people are more interested in strategy than in mecanics). By keeping the mecanics very simple (but close to the real game), they can grasp the interactions that make the game interesting.
> Damnans wrote:
> On the other hand, requiring "a lot of people" for a demo game may be an issue if you want to teach the game to many players. But if you are only going to teach VTES to a coupple of players, you can have them play in a casual game with experienced players.
>
During conventions, I'm usually alone with 2-3 new players while players do the tournaments. And the demo decks are awful.
These initiation cards are for myself because it is more simple for me to run initiations with them.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Hey guys, you know, this topic is not about whether you like my system or not. I don't force anyone to use it nor claim it's the best.
> I stated how I wanted it to work. All I want is 1/ a fresh eye on the cards so I miss nothing and 2/ to share it with people that may be interested in it. I don't want to change the core, so if you guys think you won't use it, don't waste your time with comments I'll ignore.
>
I'm kinda confused.
1. You're asking for comments because you want to know if you did't miss something
2. People are trying to help you. They are commenting, giving you their view on the cards and propositions what could be improved, in their opinion. You are not forced to use it, it's just another perspective that you' ve asked for
3. You're saying you don't want it.
> alek wrote:
> 1. You're asking for comments because you want to know if you did't miss something
>
Correct.
>
> alek wrote:
> 2. People are trying to help you. They are commenting, giving you their view on the cards and propositions what could be improved, in their opinion.
>
"You see in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend. Those with loaded guns..."
Well, not exactly. Some people here tried to improve the concept, I thank them. Some others just say it's better to make demos another way. It's not at all the purpose of this topic to compare methods to introduce the game to new players, so I'm saying I'm ignoring that kind of comment.
If I create a topic about how to paint my car in red, I'm not interested by comments such as "You should rather buy a bike."
> 3. You're saying you don't want it.
>
Yeah, I don't want comments about something else than this demoing system.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Yeah, I don't want comments about something else than this demoing system.
>
There were comments about demoing system not about something else. The only difference was amount of changes that was proposed. Looks like you just wanted only comments about cosmetic changes and refused any other bringing wider impact.
> alek wrote:
>
> > Yeah, I don't want comments about something else than this demoing system.
> >
> There were comments about demoing system not about something else. The only difference was amount of changes that was proposed. Looks like you just wanted only comments about cosmetic changes and refused any other bringing wider impact.
>
Read the topic from page 1:
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> I think there other ways to simplify the game for new players.
>
> Damnans wrote:
> The length of a demo game can be shortened if you only allow one or two learning players in such a game.
>
> Reyda wrote:
> If you want to make a v:tes light, use less different cards, and less disciplines.
>
Though useful comments in another context, they completely miss the point.
And yes, I refuse "any other bringing wider impact". I thought it was clear from the start. Otherwise, I would have stated that I'm not happy with my system and I want people to help me build something. That's not the case.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
i'm somewhat confused, after having milled all of this over. almost every card makes sense to me, except for parity shift. yes, you've turned it into a less confusingly worded card, but its still not as cut and dry as KRC. politics is already a confusing part of the game (possibly the most confusing, since combat is at its core, an attrition module for the game as a whole, and broken into pres, maneuvers, strikes, damage, and press effects) i just wondered if players you've ran this with grasped the parity shift "concept" as easily as other actions.
and the votes are kind of unbalanced to favor the ventrue, but i think the table balancing with the ventrue deck makes sense, since its an intro to how ventrue can work. are all decks going to have all cards? since there is no way to put beads back on minions other than hunting and theft, theft is a really strong card with this.
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> i'm somewhat confused, after having milled all of this over. almost every card makes sense to me, except for parity shift. yes, you've turned it into a less confusingly worded card, but its still not as cut and dry as KRC. politics is already a confusing part of the game (possibly the most confusing, since combat is at its core, an attrition module for the game as a whole, and broken into pres, maneuvers, strikes, damage, and press effects) i just wondered if players you've ran this with grasped the parity shift "concept" as easily as other actions.
>
With Parity Shift, I wanted to clearly illustrate some "deal" possibilities ("I can give you pool in exchange of..."). You can deal with KRC, but it's not as clear.
I'm open to any idea to replace it with something that has a clear deal possibility. Diversity? Con boon (though I don't want the table to gain to much pool)? Banishment?
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> and the votes are kind of unbalanced to favor the ventrue, but i think the table balancing with the ventrue deck makes sense, since its an intro to how ventrue can work. are all decks going to have all cards?
>
Even though there's no discipline, I'll respect the discipline spread. I won't put any intercept cards in the FoS deck for example.
Basically, the Ventrue will have the votes and political actions and some bleed. The Tremere will intercept, bleed and steal blood. Brujah will fight. Follower of Set will bleed stealth. I want the game to look a bit "realistic".
The table will be: Ventrue > Tremere > Brujah > Follower of Set.
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> since there is no way to put beads back on minions other than hunting and theft, theft is a really strong card with this.
>
Theft is quite strong, but if the Brujah feels too much pressure and backrushes, then the Tremere will suffer.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
i'm not sure what would be a not-clunky way to illustrate deal making that also gains pool. maybe a free states rant style card where 4 points are assigned to up to 4 vampires and they take a damage for each point if successful, with a built in bribes. or possibly a vote that taps a minion and untaps the voter with a built in bribes.
its really hard to keep the pool gain down and still illustrate the deal making concept. parity shift does seem to be the ideal card to illustrate it, but vtes politics +newbies is always my least favorite part of teaching new players.
I'm liking the idea since getting into vtes without having played any card games before is quite difficult (took a few months for me). Have you considered adding a deflection sort of card? Bouncing bleeds is quite fun for beginners I'd imagine.
> Zenedar wrote:
> I'm liking the idea since getting into vtes without having played any card games before is quite difficult (took a few months for me). Have you considered adding a deflection sort of card? Bouncing bleeds is quite fun for beginners I'd imagine.
>
I thought about it but I thought it would make things more unbalanced (since the only clan I'd like to see deflecting would be the Brujah, which is not really realistic) and a bit more complicated, even if it's more fun. Deflection may be added later.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
I see, will only the brujah have the combat cards? Got a feeling that someone's first game could be really boring should all his vampires get knocked into torpor. Have you reconsidered adding S:CE?
Ventrue will have prevent. Tremere will have maneuver / theft. FoS will have only maneuvers (they are not supposed to fight).
Since combat won't go any further from the first round, I expect the casualties not to be too harsh.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
So, for those who are interested, here's the current version.
www.veknfrance.com/VTEM/vtemcrypt.pdf
www.veknfrance.com/VTEM/vtemlib.pdf
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Non-existant user wrote:
> Why is Superior Mettle usable at close range only?
>
For balance, so the Brujah can go to long and throw an effective grid.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Here are the deck contents.
Basically, the Ventrue will have the votes and political actions and some bleed. The Tremere will intercept, bleed and steal blood. Brujah will fight. Follower of Set will bleed stealth. I want the game to look a bit "realistic".
The table will be: Ventrue > Tremere > Brujah > Follower of Set.
Ventrue (40 cards)
Political action (10)
4x Finding the Path
6x Kine Resources Contested
Combat (12)
4x Superior Mettle
8x Skin of Rock
Action modifier (10)
8x Freak Drive
2x Bonding
Reaction (8)
4x Wake with Evening's Freshness
4x Telepathic Counter
Tremere (40)
Action (1)
1x Army of Rats
Combat (10)
7x Theft of Vitae
3x Fake Out
Equipment (2)
2x Sport Bike
Action modifier (7)
7x Bonding
Reaction (20)
4x Spirit's Touch
4x Enhanced Senses
8x Wake with Evening's Freshness
4x Telepathic Counter
Brujah (40)
Action (11)
9x Harass
2x Computer Hacking
Action modifier (3)
3x Freak Drive
Combat (18)
10x Undead Strength
4x Thrown Sewer Lid
4x Fake Out
Equipment (4)
2x Bastard Sword
2x Sport Bike
Reaction (4)
4x Wake with Evening's Freshness
Follower of Set (40)
Action(10)
10x Computer Hacking
Action modifier (22)
7x Lost in Crowds
7x Swallowed by the Night
6x Bonding
2x Succulent Vitae
Combat (4)
4x Fake Out
Reaction (4)
4x Wake with Evening's Freshness
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
You'll find a printable version at www.veknfrance.com/VTEM/vtemcrypt.pdf and www.veknfrance.com/VTEM/vtemlib.pdf.
The cards for the decks (with the right number of copies) can be found at www.veknfrance.com/VTEM/vtemlib%20decks.pdf
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> You'll find a printable version at www.veknfrance.com/VTEM/vtemcrypt.pdf and www.veknfrance.com/VTEM/vtemlib.pdf.
> The cards for the decks (with the right number of copies) can be found at www.veknfrance.com/VTEM/vtemlib%20decks.pdf
>
Ankha, this is good stuff. Especially together with the decklists.
I'd maybe suggest some considerations:
- I'd like to use 6 crypt cards to get a feeling for random crypt draws and the concept of "de-crypting", not necessary multiples of one vamp, though
- Did you consider a "phase-2" format where you use card versions with disciplines (maybe even including inferior/superior) or clan requirements or did such a step never seem necessary?
- What's your experience success-wise? Better than old-school?
- Is there confusion when newbies stumble across the real cards while the VTEM-version had different details or functionality, like the timing for Army of Rats?
Still, I think this is one of the best concepts of teaching.
I'll give it a try - whenever I'll have someone to teach, that is.
-alf
<INSERT CLEVER QUOTATION HERE>
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > Damnans wrote:
> > During conventions, I'm usually alone with 2-3 new players while players do the tournaments. And the demo decks are awful.
> > These initiation cards are for myself because it is more simple for me to run initiations with them.
> >
> An interesting idea all in all!
> Have you already had experience using them with newbies?
>
Finnish Politics!
A french version is now available:
You'll find a printable version at www.veknfrance.com/VTEM/vtemcrypt-fr.pdf and www.veknfrance.com/VTEM/vtemlib-fr.pdf
The cards for the decks (with the right number of copies) can be found at www.veknfrance.com/VTEM/vtemlib-fr%20decks.pdf
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
I dindn't know these cards and I find them fantastic !
But for the french translation, I think it is a good idea but it will be difficult for an experienced player to play with them ^^
"Nefertiti bleede avec Piratage informatique
Carna, Princesse sorcière joue Eveil avec la fraîcheur du soir et tente de bloquer.
Nefertiti joue avalé par la nuit
Pas de bloque
Nefertiti joue enchainer, je te bleed pour 4"
Do you have both versions printed for tomoroww convention ?
> Timo wrote:
> I dindn't know these cards and I find them fantastic !
>
> But for the french translation, I think it is a good idea but it will be difficult for an experienced player to play with them ^^
>
> "Nefertiti bleede avec Piratage informatique
> Carna, Princesse sorcière joue Eveil avec la fraîcheur du soir et tente de bloquer.
> Nefertiti joue avalé par la nuit
> Pas de bloque
> Nefertiti joue enchainer, je te bleed pour 4"
>
> Do you have both versions printed for tomoroww convention ?
>
Only the french version. Players shouldn't play more than 1 game or 2 with those cards, and I did translate the card name so that people aren't rebuked during the initial game.
If newcomers find it interesting, "advanced" initiation should be done with real cards anyway.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Just a thought :
I have a problem with superior mettle costing a blood here.
I mean : there is in the card pool only 4 cards which can inflict more than 2 damage in 1 strike (the undead strength don't work with the bastad sword per card text) and so in all the cases except those 4 thrown sewer lid, superior mettle is a skin of rock not usable on strike for 1.
(edit : ouch, I read again superior mettle and it does'nt work against thrown sewer lid neither...)
And with the seating you propose, you have the brujah seating across the ventrue which mean unless some cross table rush from the brujah, these will be dead cards for a good part of the game.
And franckly, the ventrue will never block the FoS and when he will be blocked by the tremere, he will be at long range and/or will be dealing with theft so prevent will be dead cards alltogether.
Also, I think the ventrue will have no choice but to back kill the FoS.
I mean :
the ventrue can play safe and so play with only 11 pools of vamp (sir walter and emily/vignes)
the FoS don't have to play safe cost-wise (because a rushing pred) and so can easily play with the whole crypt (19 pools)
with nefertiti on turn 2, he can very easily bleed for 3/4 every turn with her and then bleed for 2/3 with Celine chevalier every turn
so on turn 3, 3 points of bleed and after that 6 points of bleed every turn (I don't count the bleeds from Hesha/Hadrian wich can "chump block/hunt")
so with the ventrue playing with only 2 vamp, the FoS can easily oust him in 4 turns of bleed.
And frankly, with a rush doing 2 points of damage top, the brujah will not be able to prevent it.
And on the other side of the ventrue, we have carna with 8 wake to compete with the 10 political action for the ventrue.
I had some returning informations:
- the Brujah deck empties too fast and doesn't handle Ardan Lane
- The FoS deck is boring. Always stealthing with stealth and getting reduced. An idea was too introduce some Temptations.
- Superior Mettle is useless
- the Tremere deck is balanced
Succeded seating order: Brujah - FoS - Ventrue - Tremere
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Hi ankha
first it s a great idea. When i tried a few years ago to initiate a friend and my flatemate, it was difficult to find balanced and simple decks to give at least basic understanding of the basic mechanism: bleed, stealth, intercept, leave/rescue torpor, hunt, combat maneuver...
For example i remember my flatemate trying several times to use an army of rats as a stealth modifier because he did not see that it was an action and not an action modifier.
and i remember this evening too at the bar when a girl wanting to learn was given an ashur tablet deck with only proxies...
for the decks, for the fos, maybe you can replace the succulent vitae by some blood theft (there is serpent tongue in serpentis which is simillar)...
Your army of rats would be nice too i think in such game as it s not a pool loss preventable and as it completes the fos . The only trouble is that there no such card for fos in regular games and it makes maybe the fos looking too much similar to the tremere deck...
by the way, if you need player to help you initiate others in paris, i m ready too
: )
> Ankha wrote:
> I had some returning informations:
> - the Brujah deck empties too fast and doesn't handle Ardan Lane
> - The FoS deck is boring. Always stealthing with stealth and getting reduced. An idea was too introduce some Temptations.
> - Superior Mettle is useless
> - the Tremere deck is balanced
> Succeded seating order: Brujah - FoS - Ventrue - Tremere
>
First of all:
IMHO this is the best invention EVER since I started introducing new players.
It even made the introduction process more fun for me.
We tried this two weeks ago. I had the sheets printed months ago but never got around to prepare the decks. Glad I did it just in time for our last intro of a former Ma*ic player, although he had stopped playing years before. He still had an idea about the concept of CCGs, tapping, cardflow and stuff.
I modified the crypt to double one of the key vampires and added a third 3 cap to have 6 cards in each crypt. Being able to work with crypt draw seemed important to me.
For a second run (the 1st was exceptionally smooth and fun) we changed 4 cards into staple/basic masters, like Blood Doll, Misdirection, Ascendance or such. We just used original cards. Master phase is important in the game and also easy to grasp. After all, Blood Dolls made the game even more realistic.
Empty decks: Recursion like in draft worked fine for us.
The whole concept really helped to get a good "feeling" of the game, emphasizing the multiplayer and main aspects of the game and raise some expectations for the "real stuff". In this regard it was a great success.
Some small issues I'll be pondering about for the future:
Seating order:
The Ventrue almost never get any actions done vs the Tremere and they are easily killed by the Followers.
Thinking about adding something like 2nd Tradition.
Carna as prey sometimes kills the FoS. A bit more diversity in stealth might be an option and changing seating order.
Some better cards with restriction for use at capacity 5 or above might be worth a try, to point out the existence of requirements in preparation for disciplines.
A few more, I just can't remember right now. I'll give this more tries for sure.
I might post the modified deck-lists if needed.
Thanks a lot for the concept.
Good job.
-alf
<INSERT CLEVER QUOTATION HERE>