5 player table (-A-B-C-D-E)
1) Carver has been on the table for sevral turns and players C & D each have a a minion in torpor with a hostage counter.
Can player E successfully graverob(with ) minions with a hostage counter?
If the answer is yes, what happens to the hostage counters?
Carver's Meat Packing and Storage
Master. unique location.
Cost 1 pool
When a vampire of capacity below 4 goes to torpor, put a hostage counter on him. Hostages cannot be moved to the ready region or be diablerized. During your master phase, you may tap this card to move X blood from the blood bank to a ready vampire you control where X is the number of hostages in torpor. Any ready vampire may burn 2 blood to burn any vampire's hostage counter during any untap phase. Burn all hostage counters if this card leaves play.
Graverobbing
Steal a vampire in torpor controlled by another Methuselah.
As above, and this acting vampire may burn 2 blood to move the stolen vampire to your ready region.
VTES is not for the faint of heart...especially when you don't have a enough blood.
Prince Of Geneva
The card text is clear:
>
> Carver wrote:
> cannot be moved to the ready region
>
includes all the different ways to move a vampire to the ready region: the default Rescue and Leave Torpor actions, Action cards (Graverobbing is not the only one of them), Chantry, Venere Carboni or Eric Kressida's abilities,... If they had wanted to say "cannot leave torpor" or "cannot be rescued", they would have said so.
You can play Graverobbing at since the extra effect is only optional, but you cannot use it.
> Non-existant user wrote:
> The card text is clear:
> >
> > Carver wrote:
> > cannot be moved to the ready region
> >
> includes all the different ways to move a vampire to the ready region: the default Rescue and Leave Torpor actions, Action cards (Graverobbing is not the only one of them), Chantry, Venere Carboni or Eric Kressida's abilities,... If they had wanted to say "cannot leave torpor" or "cannot be rescued", they would have said so.
>
> You can play Graverobbing at since the extra effect is only optional, but you cannot use it.
>
Correct.
Can an uncontrolled hostage enter the ready region?
For example, a vampire is sent to torpor with a hostage counter and is then Banished (or Peace of Khetamon'ed). Would influencing him/her out again be prevented by the card text of Carver's or would the hostage counter not be considered in play until it's too late?
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
Id say no. Because Banishment says younger and ready vampire. Which your vampire obviously isnt anymore as he/she is in torpor.
Choose a younger ready vampire. Successful referendum means that the chosen vampire is moved to the uncontrolled region (breaking any temporary control effects). The vampire is uncontrolled. Any cards and counters on that vampire stay with him or her (but they are out of play as long as the vampire remains uncontrolled).
Artist: Steve Casper
> Non-existant user wrote:
> The card text is clear:
> >
> > Carver wrote:
> > cannot be moved to the ready region
> >
> includes all the different ways to move a vampire to the ready region: the default Rescue and Leave Torpor actions, Action cards (Graverobbing is not the only one of them), Chantry, Venere Carboni or Eric Kressida's abilities,... If they had wanted to say "cannot leave torpor" or "cannot be rescued", they would have said so.
>
> You can play Graverobbing at since the extra effect is only optional, but you cannot use it.
>
A somewhat related question:
Can you burn the blood on a successful superior Graverobbing and fail to move the hostage to the ready region?
I guess my question is: can you use an effect to move a vampire to the ready region and then fail to do so, or is the use of the effect prohibited?
I'm curious how this works compared to taking control of something you already control, tapping a tapped minion, and playing an effect on minions who are immune to the effect.
The text of Carver's doesn't say that hostages can't be the target or user of actions or effects that would move them to the ready region, just that they can't be moved there.
> Non-existant user wrote:
>
> You can play Graverobbing at since the extra effect is only optional, but you cannot use it.
>
You say that you can't use the effect. I wonder if that's true. Can you not use the effect at all or does the effect do nothing?
The text of Carver's doesn't say that hostages can't be the target or user of actions or effects that would move them to the ready region, just that they can't be moved to the ready region.
I'm curious how this works compared to taking control of something you already control, tapping a tapped minion, moving something that isn't there, and playing an effect on minions who are immune to the effect.
> blackday wrote:
> Id say no. Because Banishment says younger and ready vampire. Which your vampire obviously isnt anymore as he/she is in torpor.
>
> Choose a younger ready vampire. Successful referendum means that the chosen vampire is moved to the uncontrolled region (breaking any temporary control effects). The vampire is uncontrolled. Any cards and counters on that vampire stay with him or her (but they are out of play as long as the vampire remains uncontrolled).
> Artist: Steve Casper
>
Peace of Khetamon, The
Political Action
Choose a vampire in torpor. Successful referendum means that vampire is moved to the uncontrolled region (facedown). The vampire's blood counters, master cards and minion cards stay with that vampire, with any counters they have on them (they are out of play as long as the vampire remains uncontrolled).
Emphasis mine.
pckvtes.wordpress.com
> AaronC wrote:
> You say that you can't use the effect. I wonder if that's true. Can you not use the effect at all or does the effect do nothing?
>
You can't do things you're prohibited from by a "you can't" clause.
Likewise, you can't play a frenzy card on a vampire immune to frenzy cards. You can't play it "just to cycle".
> Amenophobis wrote:
> Peace of Khetamon, The
> Political Action
> Choose a vampire in torpor. Successful referendum means that vampire is moved to the uncontrolled region (facedown). The vampire's blood counters, master cards and minion cards stay with that vampire, with any counters they have on them (they are out of play as long as the vampire remains uncontrolled).
>
> Emphasis mine.
>
If a vampire with a hostage counter is moved to the uncontrolled region, he keeps his hostage counter (where it has no effect). If he has blood equal to (or greater than) his capacity, he is moved automatically to the ready region at the end of your influence phase, except he can't (because if he would come into play, so would the counter and the counter prevents this from happening). So he stays in your uncontrolled region.
(Because of the analogy with the Anarch Convert special text that can be used as he would come into play, before he really enters play and becomes contested).
This is maybe not the designer intent, except that nothing prohibits the hostage counter from working when the vampire would come back into play.
(A reminder link about Banishment etc.: groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/6029edb7384bced4)
> Any ready vampire may burn 2 blood to burn any vampire's hostage counter during any untap phase.
>
This works only for counters in play, on vampires in play.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
@ Amenophobis
The query was with banishment primarily so the text i quoted was from Banishment.
For example, a vampire is sent to torpor with a hostage counter and is then Banished (or Peace of Khetamon'ed)
> blackday wrote:
> @ Amenophobis
> The query was with banishment primarily so the text i quoted was from Banishment.
>
> For example, a vampire is sent to torpor with a hostage counter and is then Banished (or Peace of Khetamon'ed)
>
Yes, I understood your posting. I only wanted to point out that Eric also mentioned Peace of Khetamon, and that it works differently from Banishment as it has to be played on vampires in torpor.
I readily agree that Peace of Khetamon is not widely played or even known. B-)
pckvtes.wordpress.com
> blackday wrote:
> @ Amenophobis
> The query was with banishment primarily so the text i quoted was from Banishment.
>
> For example, a vampire is sent to torpor with a hostage counter and is then Banished (or Peace of Khetamon'ed)
>
? You can't call Banishment on a vampire in torpor, as noted above.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Which was in my first post
Id say no. Because Banishment says younger and ready vampire. Which your vampire obviously isnt anymore as he/she is in torpor.
Choose a younger ready vampire. Successful referendum means that the chosen vampire is moved to the uncontrolled region (breaking any temporary control effects). The vampire is uncontrolled. Any cards and counters on that vampire stay with him or her (but they are out of play as long as the vampire remains uncontrolled).
> echiang wrote:
> Can an uncontrolled hostage enter the ready region?
>
Yes. [LSJ 20050224]
> LSJ wrote:
> > Card text states that "hostages cannot be moved to the ready region."
> > Clearly this means that a hostage cannot take the leave torpor action
> > or be rescued by another vampire, or even moved to the ready region by
> > Alia. But what happens if a hostage in torpor is moved to the
> > uncontrolled region (via Banishment of Peace of Khetamon) and then
> > influenced out again? He/she is still a hostage and Carver's says that
> > the hostage cannot be moved to the ready region. Does the vampire
> > remain in a state of limbo or does he stay in the uncontrolled region?
>
> The hostage counter is out of play, so the vampire is not a Hostage
> until he becomes controlled again. He'll already be in the ready
> region at that time.
>
> Banishment is not an option, by card text ("ready").
> Peace of K. will work, though.
>
> Ankha wrote:
> (Because of the analogy with the Anarch Convert special text that can be used as he would come into play, before he really enters play and becomes contested).
>
> This is maybe not the designer intent, except that nothing prohibits the hostage counter from working when the vampire would come back into play.
>
Most things don't take effect until a card is actually in play. The "is played" or "enters play" happens earlier than that. So, for example, the effect of an Elder Library does not take effect until it's firmly in play (played, not Suddened, not being played to contest a card), but the effect of Anarch Convert happens when the card is played due to its "enters play" card text.
[LSJ 20080526]
>
> Non-existant user wrote:
> > groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/2c74f5f38601b2dd
> > suggests that cards that are contested immediately are considered to
> > have been "played" (so you can DI or Sudden them, for example, if
> > appropriate) but don't "enter play" at that point.
> >
> > In that example, it's talking about a vampire who burns for self-
> > contesting, but also includes Elder Library as a normal to-be-contested
> > unique card too.
>
> You do the "enters play"/"is played" stuff when the card is played (like
> targeting the Rack or Anarch Convert's conversion). Effects of the
> to-be-contested card being in play (like Elder Library's +hand size) are not
> applied.
>
> So, yes, you can do the Anarch Convert effect (removing the Convert from the
> game to make another vampire an anarch) when the card enters play, even if
> another Anarch Convert is in play and would contest your incoming copy.
>
Carver's appears to be in the Elder Library camp.
(The issue with Elder Library is - if I played it to contest yours - would I get an extra hand-size, draw a card, then have it contest, then lose the hand size, thus getting to cycle an extra card. The answer is no.)
> jamesatzephyr wrote:
>
> > echiang wrote:
> > Can an uncontrolled hostage enter the ready region?
> >
> Yes. [LSJ 20050224]
>
> > LSJ wrote:
> > > Card text states that "hostages cannot be moved to the ready region."
> > > Clearly this means that a hostage cannot take the leave torpor action
> > > or be rescued by another vampire, or even moved to the ready region by
> > > Alia. But what happens if a hostage in torpor is moved to the
> > > uncontrolled region (via Banishment of Peace of Khetamon) and then
> > > influenced out again? He/she is still a hostage and Carver's says that
> > > the hostage cannot be moved to the ready region. Does the vampire
> > > remain in a state of limbo or does he stay in the uncontrolled region?
> >
> > The hostage counter is out of play, so the vampire is not a Hostage
> > until he becomes controlled again. He'll already be in the ready
> > region at that time.
> >
> > Banishment is not an option, by card text ("ready").
> > Peace of K. will work, though.
> >
> > Ankha wrote:
> > (Because of the analogy with the Anarch Convert special text that can be used as he would come into play, before he really enters play and becomes contested).
> >
> > This is maybe not the designer intent, except that nothing prohibits the hostage counter from working when the vampire would come back into play.
> >
> Most things don't take effect until a card is actually in play. The "is played" or "enters play" happens earlier than that. So, for example, the effect of an Elder Library does not take effect until it's firmly in play (played, not Suddened, not being played to contest a card), but the effect of Anarch Convert happens when the card is played due to its "enters play" card text.
>
> [LSJ 20080526]
> >
> > Non-existant user wrote:
> > > groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/2c74f5f38601b2dd
> > > suggests that cards that are contested immediately are considered to
> > > have been "played" (so you can DI or Sudden them, for example, if
> > > appropriate) but don't "enter play" at that point.
> > >
> > > In that example, it's talking about a vampire who burns for self-
> > > contesting, but also includes Elder Library as a normal to-be-contested
> > > unique card too.
> >
> > You do the "enters play"/"is played" stuff when the card is played (like
> > targeting the Rack or Anarch Convert's conversion). Effects of the
> > to-be-contested card being in play (like Elder Library's +hand size) are not
> > applied.
> >
> > So, yes, you can do the Anarch Convert effect (removing the Convert from the
> > game to make another vampire an anarch) when the card enters play, even if
> > another Anarch Convert is in play and would contest your incoming copy.
> >
> Carver's appears to be in the Elder Library camp.
>
> (The issue with Elder Library is - if I played it to contest yours - would I get an extra hand-size, draw a card, then have it contest, then lose the hand size, thus getting to cycle an extra card. The answer is no.)
>
Correct.