Kickstarter for V:tes?

I posted short statement about this at my blog - czechvtes.blogspot.cz/2012/07/kickstarter-for-vtes.html , but since most of active community uses thif forum, here is full transcript: Ok I know that title of my post probably says it all, but I have recently backed two projects on Kickstarter. Both were computer games - those types I like, but it seems, like it is just more profitable to do 3D shooters or something like that. I am really grateful for kickstarter idea and I just love those projects. For those, who do not know about Kickstarter: The way it works is, that this page hosts a different projects. These project have their funding goals and people are pledging differents ammounts of money for it. Once the time for this project runs out, there are two options: 1) Funding goal wasn't achieved - nothing happens, project is shut down and no one loses his money 2) Funding goal was achieved - pledged money is acquired from everyone who pledged and project is realized. There are often different levels of pledge - example for computer game - you pledge 20 USD - you get digital copy of game, you pledge 50 USD - you get DVD copy, 100 makes collectors edition and you see where this is going. But in the end, it got me thinking.... I know, that there are probably only a few companies, that could pick up V:tes at this point and partly funding this with Kickstarter may help. There is not much I know about how negotiations about ressurecting this game are going, but this maybe something to consider. The concept is easy enough - company that is interested should set up goal, pledge levels - well we can see right from the start - boosterboxes, starterboxes of new edition / reprinted edition, maybe some promo things, like those tableclots or bags were... Ok I know it is a longshot, but I am just puting it out there. I would like to talk about this more on vekn.net to get more feedback from the community. So this is all for now, See you next time... I would like to know, what are you thinking about this - I know that it may be stupid idea, but still anything may help in the end. czechvtes.blogspot.com/

Since a significant amount of the production cost is acquiring the licenses from CCP and Hasbro, I for one have strictly no idea of what the funding goal should be. Does anyone: 1) have an idea? 2) is allowed to talk about it on a public forum, if at all? As a milestone goody, I suggest a warghoul plushy

See my new post in the forum. Long story short deckmaster mechanic expires in 2014. Wait until then to pursue crowd funding to strictly continue the game. Otherwise, pursue a new and fresh goal that isn't confined like it is currently.

If a serious party with connections to the license holders were to put up a Kickstarter page with suitable rewards, I would pledge up to $1000. I suspect I'm not the only one.

The idea of using Kickstarter sounds good, I'd provide support and pledge as much money as possible to help this guys! This game is awesome and I think it deserves new expansions. Specially considering the size of WoD.

> Silmegil wrote: > 2) Funding goal was achieved - pledged money is acquired from everyone who pledged and project is realized. > Well, not exactly. Project is funded, but the people may fail to realize the project. Or they are totally incompetent. Or they run away with the money. Kickstarter can be useful, but is not guaranteed at all. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Shush, Ankha! Don't tell everyone about my secret plan!

> Silmegil wrote: > But in the end, it got me thinking.... I know, that there are probably only a few companies, that could pick up V:tes at this point and partly funding this with Kickstarter may help. There is not much I know about how negotiations about ressurecting this game are going, but this maybe something to consider. > White Wolf has done a Kickstarter before, the concept isn't foreign to them. forums.white-wolf.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=58188 The problem would be interest. If they feel the cost is $2,000,000 or thereabouts to get back into the game because of existing agreements, new print costs, etc., and they aren't interested in warehousing product, convincing them to give it a go would be a problem. Note that they had almost as many contributors as have signed up for this forum and weren't able to generate $100,000. (Not much need for more than 1 copy of book, so boosters/starters/etc. would probably bring in more per person.) My experience selling to players around the world tells me 2 booster displays and 1 starter display is the most common purchase for a new set. (Which only gets you to ~180 per person at regular internet prices for those items.) www.kickstarter.com/projects/200664283/v20-companion-deluxe-edition

So i've looked into this myself and have done a minor amount of research. Here is what I came up with in what would be needed, followed by a new distribution model. Needed: a list of artists for new art with price points. card set developers with price points. card creators (the people who do the computer construction of getting the art and rules onto the card and make the layout look good) and price points. card printing facilities with price points. lawyers for any new patents/copyrights/tradermarks as well as for interacting with CCP/Whitewolf and Hasbro/WotC and price points. cost for setting up own business and price points. Take that and roll it into a total cost and then take that to CCP/WhiteWolf with lawyers in tow and present the TotalCost and expected RoI, then negotiate. Then Hasbro/WotC needs to be delt with, but i am WAY fuzzy on how that works as they still own tapping/90degree card rotating and deckmaster. If all goes well, you’re off and running. For distribution, I came at it with this approach: First, front load the cost of sets to the end customer via kickstarter per each set. I.E., put the cost of each set up on kickstarter, and once it’s funded fully, then take that money to make the set. Second, for distribution, instead of creating booster packs and selling them to the retailors, you release the set online as downloadable a pdf (either as a price or as free with a donate button). The enduser now can print the cards out and cut them out themselves. Just create a rule that says that self printed cards have to be color and of good quality to be tournament legal and that tournament judges get final say over if the self print is usable or not. In addition to that, you also offer the set as a whole as a premade and precut product on card stock (like ccg’s are today), but instead of random boosters, you get the whole set directly from the manufacturer. A purchase of a set would cost around 35 dollars. So if someone spent 105 dollars, they could get 3 of every card. I’m not saying the above is perfect, I’m saying though that I think it’s a new stab at the industry model that might work in favor of resurrecting the game

gymim and simigil, i would love for this to work and maybe it will. someone may put in the effort to get this going (A company or someone else). But looking at Adonai's post, the cost has to be considered. (unless I'm missing something) Adonai mentions the figure $2,000,000. Lets just take the figure $1,000,000. I'm only giving a hypothetical. If the 1200 or so registered members on this site are willing to throw in for a Kickstarter plan, that would be close to $1000 per person. Adonai says in his experience, for a new set, most buyers will buy two booster boxes and a starter box, or around $180. I wonder what other sellers would say the would expect to sell for a new set in thier experience. I would guess that it would be close to this amount. I'm not sure about the idea of LCG's yet. I think there are pros and cons which I haven't wieghed out yet. But there are things I like. gymim, I like the idea of buying a complete set and buying three copies for around $100-$120. Five copies would be closer to $200. Realistically, can this be taken to a company and sold to them as a good idea. If the number they are looking at as a "good idea" is $1,000,000, then 1200 dedicated registered members willing to spend $200 (and that may not be the case) gives them nothing to say "this is where we should put our resources." On the other hand, if you can convince the company that ~$250,000 is enough and it will produce a good RoI, it may work. I'm not saying you guys have a bad idea, I just wonder how much money could be raised by a Kickstarter and how much would be realistically needed to "resurrect the game."

I'm not sure if it's possible. I see 2 problems right out of the gate: 1 is finding out the cost. You can do the research and get prices for the cost of rolling out a set yourself or through a company, but have *no* idea on how to account for what ccp/whitewolf and hasbro/wotc will charge/want. They could be fine with just a percentage off the top to wanting money up front and then a percent. 2 Maybe I'm wrong about this, but the problem i see isn't the money, which can be gotten if someone wants if bad enough, the problem I see is hasbro/wotc. I think that to get the game back out again, their approval as well as successful money negotiations need to be attained. I personally think that they'll say "no" no matter what price is offered to them. My gut tells me that they would look at it as a competing card game in a market they own and instead of chancing the idea of loosing *any* sales from pokemon and magic to vtes, they just say "no". If I were them, I'd so "no" so as to keep my card games as the only things you have available to you.

> gymim wrote: > I'm not sure if it's possible. I see 2 problems right out of the gate: 1 is finding out the cost. > 2 Maybe I'm wrong about this, but the problem i see isn't the money, which can be gotten if someone wants if bad enough, the problem I see is hasbro/wotc. > The costs are known. The costs aren't the important part. How are you going to convince a company (CCP) that brings in 10s of millions a month to spend any money ($250,000 to print a set similar in size to Keepers of Tradition with all new art), when their potential return on investment is that they recoup their costs? You need to show them how they can make a profit. Because in the end, business is a game of math, and the current size of the player base and their historic spending records don't indicate that doing more than breaking even is currently possible.

> You need to show them how they can make a profit. > This part involves making a presentation with the proper math, but more over, having someone/some-company pitch it that has a track record of making things of this nature successful. Here's my confusion, why would CCP need to spend 250,000? Wouldn't the onus of the cost be on the party making the pitch to CCP? If the party lobbying to re-start VTES wasn't footing the entire bill from front to back, I don't know why CCP would even bother looking at the proposal. I would assume that the proposal would have to be: pitched by someone with a track record of success, note that all the cost would be covered by the party wishing to re-start VTES, that a reasonable RoI would be given in tangible numbers, that CCP would be given 5% to 15% of sales, and also leave room for CCP to come to the table with a monetary figure demanded on their (CCP's) part just for the third party to come "on-deck" and move forward (I.E. check to see if the third party is really serious). Again, though, i think all this is unimportant compared to the fact that (unless i've made a mistake which is quite possible) hsbro/wotc need to give approval as well, and i think that no matter what is offered, they are just going to say "no", as VTES competes in their market. Although i really would like to see if that is true, or if they don't care just as long as a certain monetary number is hit as a falt fee to hasbro/wotc as well as a cut of the profit, or if they have no say at all and if all the negotiations are done via CCP/whitewolf.

> gymim wrote: > Here's my confusion, > You're two years late to the party, so I'll repeat a few items. White Wolf/CCP will not relinquish to a random third party, and all of the existing game companies were considered for partnerships before the decision to end the product line was made. The fees they want for their IP and that WOTC/Hasbro want for their IP makes any investment short of 2 million a non-starter. Until copyright and trademark licenses expire, you won't be able to get anyone except CCP to publish cards. They are the only ones that can be convinced and you have to convince them they can make a real profit, in the high 6 figure a year range. So unless your Kickstarter funder has won a lottery and considers V:TES their own private charity, you aren't going to get the product to a third party producer. The players had a chance to show White Wolf/CCP how much they would spend on new product when they did their direct to customer sales thru their website. The response was tepid, at best.

So my perception of your post is "to buy (and to fully own) the IP outright from CCP/WhiteWolf and Hasbro/WotC, you would need around 2 million down". But the third party (i assume) wouldn't be trying to buy (and to own) the IP, but to use it with permission from ccp/whitewolf and hasbro/wotc in return for a fee and/or a cut from the profit. Am I wrong in my perception? If so, could you help clarify it for me? Also, where did the 2 million number come from? Just as a guess, I assume when whitewolf took over the game from hasbro/wotc, whitewolf didn't become owner of "tapping" and "deckmaster", whitewolf just used them with permission from hasbro/wotc. I assume that hasbro/wotc didn't ask for 2 million up front, but that is just pure speculation on my part. I would assume hasbro/wotc asked for less and then asked for a cut off the profit, knowing that whitewolf was an already established company with the capitol to roll out cards.

> gymim wrote: > So my perception of your post is "to buy (and to fully own) the IP outright from CCP/WhiteWolf and Hasbro/WotC, > Nope. To begin licensing the IP, you need 7 figures a year to each company. To rent, not to own. > gymim wrote: > Am I wrong in my perception? > Yes. > gymim wrote: > If so, could you help clarify it for me? > Not without violating confidential business information even more. > gymim wrote: > I assume > Time to stop that. I won't be posting more on the topic after this final line. It is stupid to think that any of the companies involved are going to budge on their IP concerns for insignificant amounts. There aren't significant amounts of money in this game. I sold 18% of the entire print run of Heirs to the Blood, so I have a very good knowledge of exactly what sold, to whom it sold, and how it broke down per player. If you want to move V:TES towards new printings or new sets, you must be able to show CCP that they can make a profit, and they have years of experience to know how it simply paid its bills and made enough to cover a few employees that mostly worked on other products. It was never discontinued for a lack of operating capital at CCP. See also: MMORPG

> To begin licensing the IP, you need 7 figures a year to each company. > To rent, not to own. > 7 figures to each company to license the game (per year), and that is excluding everything to make the cards and get them to the customer. So it sounds like 2 to 4 million to start it up and get running. No idea how that kind of money get rounded up, lol. Thank you Adonai very much for your time and information! Woot!

Like I have been saying. Unless it is community driven (as it is now), VTES is not coming back in an official published capacity. Or at least that is my belief. People should get used to that. Perhaps FFG might one day base an LCG or something of the like on the WoD, but even that is a ways out and there are other IP's that may make more profit prior to considering WoD. Plus it may not even resemble VTES and they most likely won't incorporate a back catalog of cards from a dead game. I know people say VTES is not dead, but technically it is indeed dead, but receives post community support in an unofficial capacity. Adonai did a great job illustrating the key points and hopefully this puts this to rest for a while.

I thought the deckmaster license was used for netrunner, and its getting a new game out soon by FFG. So wouldnt they be a probable publisher? And i thought the license would expire 2014? Is netrunner an exception?

> blackday wrote: > I thought the deckmaster license was used for netrunner, and its getting a new game out soon by FFG. So wouldnt they be a probable publisher? And i thought the license would expire 2014? Is netrunner an exception? > There were three games that utilized Deckmaster. Magic, Netrunner, and VTES. FFG won't utilize Deckmaster. And besides, they only have to work with one company. Further, it won't utilize the old cards, but a new game on it's own. Thus this avoids issues.

could someone please explain to me why the game ceased production? I stopped playing around the time keepers of tradition was released-facepalm- and I've only just reacently been trying to become involved again. Hindsight is foresight because we walk in circles

I think it was not within the strategic area the company wanted to go for or something like that. They wanted to focus on computer games instead. From what I heard the last expansion was still selling quite well. Others can probably fill in more details for you.

Also WW/CCP needed to renew the lisence for the system from WotC who, AFAIK, were asking for unreasonably large amount of money for the renewal. there should be plenty of threads about it in this forum if you look around... Finnish Politics!