Outside the Hourglass and Vampiric Disease

Vampire A has Vampiric Disease and one blood left. Vampire B gets into combat with A and uses Outside the Hourglass with superior Temporis resulting in A falling into torpor before range is determined. Does vampire B get a disease counter? Outside the Hourglass Combat odf: Strike: dodge. tem: Maneuver, or strike: dodge, with an optional maneuver. TEM: Only usable before range is determined. Inflict 2 damage on the opposing minion. A vampire can play only one Outside the Hourglass at superior each round. Vampiric Disease Master. Put a disease counter on any vampire. Each time a vampire with a disease counter is in combat at close range with another vampire, the second vampire gets a counter as well. An afflicted vampire cannot gain blood by hunting. When an afflicted vampire untaps, he or she burns a blood or, if unable, burns the disease counter. A vampire can have only one disease counter.

I guess, based on previous rulings, that vampire gets a disease counter. Damage from Outside the Hourglass is dealt on close range, if the range for that round hasn't been set.EDIT: to long. Ignorance is bliss. Cypher, Matrix

> Lemminkäinen wrote: > Vampire A has Vampiric Disease and one blood left. Vampire B gets into combat with A and uses Outside the Hourglass with superior Temporis resulting in A falling into torpor before range is determined. Does vampire B get a disease counter? > No. Were Vampiric Disease's text ruled that way, it would be entirely redundant. So LSJ ruled that it operates after range is determined. [LSJ 20100701] > > LSJ wrote: > > By this reasoning a Vampiric Disease counter should be passed as well. > > Except that card text on VD is clearly using the "after range is > determined" window. > Note that the 'this reasoning' is specifically with reference to fun ensuing from the whole "What range is it for Outside the Hourglass and how does that interact with...?" which is the wider topic of the thread. (It wouldn't be a bad idea to have clarificatory text added to the official card text, but the ruling is sufficient.)

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > Lemminkäinen wrote: > > Vampire A has Vampiric Disease and one blood left. Vampire B gets into combat with A and uses Outside the Hourglass with superior Temporis resulting in A falling into torpor before range is determined. Does vampire B get a disease counter? > > > No. Were Vampiric Disease's text ruled that way, it would be entirely redundant. So LSJ ruled that it operates after range is determined. > Right. "Before range is determined" occurs before VD can trigger. VD requires close range, per card text. Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

I do not understand this. can someone explain to me why does he not get disease counter, step - by - step?

> Pendargon wrote: > I do not understand this. > > can someone explain to me why does he not get disease counter, step - by - step? > LSJ ruled that Vampiric Disease says, in effect: "After range has been determined (in the Determine Range step), if range is close and one vampire has a disease counter, then the opposing vampire also..." or something like that. (Note: not official text.) This is how it always functioned in days of yore - so Elysium: The Aboretum or Mariel, Lady Thunder could protect you from it. This was before there was ever an issue caused by Outside the Hourglass/Disarm, which requires knowledge of the range even before range is determined. So the ruling preserves the implicit assumption in Vampiric Disease's text - that you've already been through Determine Range. In the proposed situation, one vampire has been torporised before Determine Range, ending combat. (Personally, from an 'ick' perspective, I'd rather the Outside the Hourglass interaction with range wasn't necessary (such as by errata-ing it by fiat to be environmental damage, a la Weather Control), or that all the dependent cards - like Disarm - that interact with it were only playable after range has been determined. But that's not where we are.)

Thanx James. I agree. Ooth rulings are confusing, and i am also in the camp "change it to environmental"

> Pendargon wrote: > Thanx James. > > I agree. Ooth rulings are confusing, and i am also in the camp "change it to environmental" > I can see the value there from a rules simplicity point of view - the rulings are pretty crazy - but I think the theming there is spot-on. It's a unique capability for a unique discipline, and being able to deal damage outside of the normal sequence of combat is very appropriate for a power that involves taking action outside of the normal flow of time. Making it environmental messes with a lot of the uniqueness of it.

So why does Disarm work with Outside The Hourglass (especially when combined with Domain of Evernight at basic Temporis, so that combat ends before range is determined), and Vampiric Disease does not? Does it come down to the fact that Vampiric Disease already has rulings that push it one way, and Disarm does not? Or is there a more subtle difference between them that I'm not grasping? (Or am I confusing the Disarm combo, which needs close, with Decapitate, which does not?) > Disarm (basic potence level) : Only usable at the end of a round of combat in which this vampire successfully inflicted more damage at close range than the opposing vampire. Not usable by a vampire being burned or going into torpor. Put this card on the opposing vampire and send that vampire into torpor. The vampire with this card has -1 strength. He or she may burn this card by burning 3 blood. A vampire can have only one Disarm. > > Vampiric Disease : Master. > Put a disease counter on any vampire. Each time a vampire with a disease counter is in combat at close range with another vampire, the second vampire gets a counter as well. An afflicted vampire cannot gain blood by hunting. When an afflicted vampire untaps, he or she burns a blood or, if unable, burns the disease counter. A vampire can have only one disease counter. > > Outside the Hourglass, superior Temporis level : Only usable before range is determined. Inflict 2 damage on the opposing minion. A vampire can play only one Outside the Hourglass at superior each round. > > Domain of Evernight, basic Temporis level : If this action is blocked, all damage done to vampires in the resulting combat is aggravated. > VtES store : www.prunesquallor.net Card supplies & games : stores.ebay.com/Prunesquallors-Secret-Cache

> prunesquallor wrote: > So why does Disarm work with Outside The Hourglass (especially when combined with Domain of Evernight at basic Temporis, so that combat ends before range is determined), and Vampiric Disease does not? Or, the combo of Outside the Hourglass, Domain of Evernight, and Decapitate (superior)? > Explicit rulings, apparently to preserve designer intent.

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > (Personally, from an 'ick' perspective, I'd rather the Outside the Hourglass interaction with range wasn't necessary (such as by errata-ing it by fiat to be environmental damage, a la Weather Control), or that all the dependent cards - like Disarm - that interact with it were only playable after range has been determined. But that's not where we are.) > Latest wording on Disarm: > Disarm wrote: > [pot] Only usable at close range at the end of a round of combat in which this vampire successfully inflicted more damage than the opposing vampire. Not usable by a vampire being burned or going into torpor. Put this card on the opposing vampire and send that vampire into torpor. The vampire with this card has -1 strength. He or she may burn this card by burning 3 blood. A vampire can have only one Disarm. > Pulled Fangs has seen a similar update. -- National Coordinator South Africa

Ah, I forgot about the changes in: www.vekn.net/index.php/forum/6-rules-questions/30276-extrala-is-wrong-did-you-know-that--part-91?limit=10&start=30#30748 Or, more specifically, I remembered Pascal was contemplating it (a page or two back in the thread), but didn't remember the change being confirmed. Specifically: "I'll change Disarm and Pulled Fangs to get this clear. They'll only be usable at close range."

Pardon me for being dense, but does this change how Outside the Hourglass interacts with Disarm and Pulled Fangs, if the combat ends before range is determined? VtES store : www.prunesquallor.net Card supplies & games : stores.ebay.com/Prunesquallors-Secret-Cache

> prunesquallor wrote: > Pardon me for being dense, but does this change how Outside the Hourglass interacts with Disarm and Pulled Fangs, if the combat ends before range is determined? > No. The real problem comes from Vampiric Disease which doesn't state exactly when you get a counter. VD could be changed to "after range has been determined" (with "after" meaning "immediately after") or "at the beginning of the choose strike step". Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Interesting that LSJ is implying (from the old Mariel Lady Thunder & Elysium rulings) that there is NO range before the determine range is set (i.e. VD can't trigger because there is no range until the determine range step is completed). But later we have people insisting (and rulings insisting) that Disarm should respond to the damage from Outside the Hourglass... Why can't we just keep it nice and simple: Damage dealt before range cannot be counted against damage that must occur at a specific range. The argument I remember seeing here on these forums basically went: "There must be a range before there is a range, and since the default is close then it must be close". So, honestly, I can't reconcile the Disarm Ruling (which says that damage before range is Close Range Damage) and the traditional rulings on things such as VD and Mariel (which says that damage before range has no range). Pascal, It sounds like you need to pick ONE premise and apply it to ALL cards (changing any appropriate rulings no matter who made them and when). 1) Before the Determine Range Step there is no range OR 2) The range is always close unless the Determine Range Step changes it to Long. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Interesting that LSJ is implying (from the old Mariel Lady Thunder & Elysium rulings) that there is NO range before the determine range is set (i.e. VD can't trigger because there is no range until the determine range step is completed). > Could you provide a pointer? I've browsed the different links in this topic and couldn't find what you're talking about. > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > 1) Before the Determine Range Step there is no range > OR > 2) The range is always close unless the Determine Range Step changes it to Long. > Option 3) the current ruling, which could be summarized as "The range is known once the Determine Range step is over". It's as valid as the 2 others (and is official). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Option 3) the current ruling, which could be summarized as "The range is known once the Determine Range step is over". It's as valid as the 2 others (and is official). > What happens if a minion A plays OtH in combat with the blocking minion B with Improvised Flamethrower. Before range step ends, the minion A plays maneuver to long, then B moves to close, then A back to long, and range is set to long. So, from this moment range is known, and OtH damage is dealt on long, but when minion B takes that unpreventable damage from Improvised Flamethrower's text? > If the opposing minion inflicts any damage on this minion at long range (even if it is prevented), this weapon is burned and the bearer takes 2 aggravated (non-strike) damage. > Ignorance is bliss. Cypher, Matrix

I believe the correct answer is that the judge's head explodes. Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

> Megabaja wrote: > What happens if a minion A plays OtH in combat with the blocking minion B with Improvised Flamethrower. Before range step ends, the minion A plays maneuver to long, then B moves to close, then A back to long, and range is set to long. > So, from this moment range is known, and OtH damage is dealt on long, but when minion B takes that unpreventable damage from Improvised Flamethrower's text > www.vekn.net/index.php/forum/6-rules-questions/30276-extrala-is-wrong-did-you-know-that--part-91?limit=10&start=20#30550 > Pascal wrote: > - OtH when opposing has a Improvised Flamethrower + Maneveur/set range to long => Improvised Flamethrower does not explode. > > Basically, Disarm isn't playable at long range (all the Disarm points), and damage is resolved when it is inflicted - we don't retro-check it (last point). > It wasn't long when OtH was played. It became long after. We don't go back and interfere with it then (retro-check it).

Looking at the very end of the thread that James just linked you get this(which should keep my head from exploding in the likely event I face these situations tomorrow): > Pascal wrote: > > > extrala wrote: > > Can you tell me why the first two are *not* valid in comparison of the third? > > > > > > - OtH + Maneuver to long + Majesty Disarm => Not valid. > > > - OtH + Selective Silence + Disarm => Not valid. > > > - OtH + Fear of the Void Below + Majesty + Disarm => Valid. > > > > > > > > > Brainfart.Disarm isn't playable as Fear of the Void Below is played (see ruling from LSJ quoted by Ankha). > > I'll change Disarm and Pulled Fangs to get this clear. They'll only be usable at close range. > This should answer all the questions: > > * Set range to long + OtH : Disarm can't be played (as range is set to long) > * OtH + set range to long : Disarm can't be played (as range is set to long) > * Fear of the Void Below + OtH + set range to close: range can be played (as range is set to close at the end of the round). > > > Name: Disarm > > [Sabbat:R, SW:R, CE:PB, BH:PN, KMW:PAl, Third:R] > > Cardtype: Combat > > Discipline: Potence > > [pot] Only usable at close range at the end of a round of combat in which this vampire successfully inflicted more damage than the opposing vampire. Not usable by a vampire being burned or going into torpor. Put this card on the opposing vampire and send that vampire into torpor. The vampire with this card has -1 strength. He or she may burn this card by burning 3 blood. A vampire can have only one Disarm. > > [POT] As above, but the vampire with this card has -2 strength. > > > > Name: Pulled Fangs > > [Jyhad:R2, VTES:R, SW:PB, CE:R2, Anarchs:PAG] > > Cardtype: Combat > > Only usable at close range at the end of a round of combat in which this minion inflicted more damage than the opposing vampire. Not usable by a minion being burned or going into torpor. > > Put this card on the opposing vampire, and this minion inflicts 1 point of damage. The victim cannot hunt until this card is removed. Any vampire(s) may burn this card with two +1 stealth actions. If the victim must hunt and cannot, he or she goes into torpor. A vampire can have only 1 Pulled Fangs. > > > And for the Improvised Flamethrower question, this Disarm / Fear of the Void Below change doesn't affect anything. > If OtH is played at long range (either because range has been set to long or because the default range is long and we're in the "before range is set" step), the Flamethrower explodes. > Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > Megabaja wrote: > > What happens if a minion A plays OtH in combat with the blocking minion B with Improvised Flamethrower. Before range step ends, the minion A plays maneuver to long, then B moves to close, then A back to long, and range is set to long. > > So, from this moment range is known, and OtH damage is dealt on long, but when minion B takes that unpreventable damage from Improvised Flamethrower's text > > > www.vekn.net/index.php/forum/6-rules-questions/30276-extrala-is-wrong-did-you-know-that--part-91?limit=10&start=20#30550 > > > Pascal wrote: > > - OtH when opposing has a Improvised Flamethrower + Maneveur/set range to long => Improvised Flamethrower does not explode. > > > > Basically, Disarm isn't playable at long range (all the Disarm points), and damage is resolved when it is inflicted - we don't retro-check it (last point). > > > It wasn't long when OtH was played. It became long after. We don't go back and interfere with it then (retro-check it). > now i am even more at a loss, and i thought i just started to understand the whole shabang... :/

> Pendargon wrote: > now i am even more at a loss, and i thought i just started to understand the whole shabang... :/ > Handle OtH's damage when it's played. Is it long? No. No explosion. Move on. Does it become long after? The damage effect on OtH has already been handled. Don't re-open it.

> Ankha wrote: > Option 3) the current ruling, which could be summarized as "The range is known once the Determine Range step is over". It's as valid as the 2 others (and is official). > Your #3 is the same as #1 (e.g. Until the end of the Determine Range step, there is no range). For Pascal, So consequent questions are: #1 Is the Determine Range step over when the range has been set by an effect? e.g. If Selective Silence is played does this end the Determine Range Step? #2 Can Outside the Hourglass (or any other "Only usable before range is determined") be played during the Determine Range Step IF something like Selective Silence (or another effect which sets range) has been played? #3 Can these cards be played during the Determine Range Step before the range is determined? (i.e. Can one of the "Only usable before range is determined" cards be played between maneuvers by the various minions?) If so, is the range for those effects the 'current range' (i.e. If a minion has maneuvered to long and OtH is played, is it now Ranged damage even if a minion later plays another maneuver to make the range close?) #4 Could we just truncate all of these potential rulings (which may vary card by card) and force two facts: 1) Before the determine range step ends, there is no range (neither close or long). 2) Should all "Before Range is determined" cards be force to be played before all maneuvers? (Effectively errata'ing all of them to read "Only playable before the Determine Range Step") Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> jamesatzephyr wrote: > > > Pendargon wrote: > > now i am even more at a loss, and i thought i just started to understand the whole shabang... :/ > > > Handle OtH's damage when it's played. Is it long? No. No explosion. Move on. > > Does it become long after? The damage effect on OtH has already been handled. Don't re-open it. > And the only case you can make a Improvised Flamethrower blow with an Outside the Hourglass, is by setting the range to long (eg. with a Selective Silence) before playing OtH. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > Option 3) the current ruling, which could be summarized as "The range is known once the Determine Range step is over". It's as valid as the 2 others (and is official). > > > Your #3 is the same as #1 (e.g. Until the end of the Determine Range step, there is no range). > You're right (it's the same), but in fact I summarized the current ruling the wrong way. -> "1/ Range is unknown until it has been set (either by card or at the end of the Determine Range step). 2/ Whatever happens, range is known after the Determine Range step is over.". Case 2 explains that if combat ends before the Determine Range step, then you proceed to the end of the round (as usual), meaning the Determine Range step is over and the range known (either because it was set earlier, or to its default range). > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > For Pascal, > > So consequent questions are: > > #1 Is the Determine Range step over when the range has been set by an effect? e.g. If Selective Silence is played does this end the Determine Range Step? > No. We are still in the "before range is determined" step (though the name is definitively confusing). When we should reach the Determine Range step, it is skipped. > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > #2 Can Outside the Hourglass (or any other "Only usable before range is determined") be played during the Determine Range Step IF something like Selective Silence (or another effect which sets range) has been played? > No, because the Determine Range Step is skipped. > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > #3 Can these cards be played during the Determine Range Step before the range is determined? (i.e. Can one of the "Only usable before range is determined" cards be played between maneuvers by the various minions?) > No, it has never been possible. > > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > If so, is the range for those effects the 'current range' (i.e. If a minion has maneuvered to long and OtH is played, is it now Ranged damage even if a minion later plays another maneuver to make the range close?) > Moot. > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > #4 Could we just truncate all of these potential rulings (which may vary card by card) and force two facts: 1) Before the determine range step ends, there is no range (neither close or long). 2) Should all "Before Range is determined" cards be force to be played before all maneuvers? > That's the current rulings (though 1) is not totally true: you can set the range before the Determine Range Step even begins). > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > (Effectively errata'ing all of them to read "Only playable before the Determine Range Step") > That would be the proper way to do it. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Ankha, I was attempting to particularly have Pascal answer those questions. The main reason is that the only criteria on Selective Silence is that it is used "Before range is determined" which in a literal sense means "at any point before the end of the determine range step". So from the text ON THE CARD, it is playable once minions have begun playing maneuvers because the range is not yet determined (i.e. we have not reached the end of the determine range step) and it is an ugly affair that we need to have CRR.VI to dictate that "Before range is determined" is not read in plain English. (I would suggest as an immediate remedy to that 'oversight' that those cards all be errata'd to read "Before the determine range step". This would then make it clear, on the card, that once maneuvers are played these cards are not playable. This is one of the immediate examples of where "Keywording" has been done atrociously and never amended. (It smells again of LSJ-fiat and not having any future follow-up to clean up the keywording. The tendency of the VTES community to be happy with an 'off-the-card ruling' instead of developing a clear on-the-card text stuns me. And the dogged adherance to those off-the-card rulings is equally troubling at times.) From this comes another moment of keywording apparently being done poorly. (Again for PASCAL) Is there a difference between "Only usable before range is determined" and "Play before range is determined" (e.g. Between the play-window of say OtH and Devil-channel: Hands) and "Before range is determined" (the text on OtH and/or Devil-channel: Hands from Zip Gun)? So Pascal, can we potentially remove this legacy "Keywording" and replace it with something that is not just clear but also make a clear decision (which is then applied to ALL of the relevant cards overturning whichever legacy rulings are necessary) on: 1) Is there a range before the ending of the Determine Range Step? 2) Does the sequence of playing cards, such as Outside the Hourglass, in the before range step drastically change their interactions? Example Vamp A plays OtH then Vamp B plays Selective Silence (and has an Improvised Flamethrower) VS Vamp A plays Selective Silence (and has an Improvised Flamethrower) then Vamp B plays OtH. Which one/s (if any) should result in an exploding Improvised Flamethrower since there is nothing in the CRR.VI which actually states where the 'range is now close/long'. And before I get the obligatory screams of "But it has always been done XYZ way (insert Google Group references where LSJ had a debate with someone 4+ years ago)"... WHY AREN'T THOSE SPECIFIC POINTS ALREADY INTEGRATED INTO THE RESOURCES FOR PLAY (Rulebook, CRR)? WHY HAVEN'T THEY RESULTED IN A CLEAR CHANGE TO THE KEYWORDING USED IN VTES? If there isn't much of an answer to that (or the usual 'But we had an LSJ ruling (points back at Google Group)' then I'm sure you won't mind that you could getting arrested in Alabama for opening an umbrella on a public street ( link here ) even though its patently dense for that law to still exist and I doubt that any police officer enforces it (because of the stupidity of the law) Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

I think that if you read Pascal's entire post that I linked above it is much easier to understand what the ruling is. Some interpretations are just plain wrong or outdated, leading to more confusion here. Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one. -Friedrich Nietzsche brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/

> brandonsantacruz wrote: > I think that if you read Pascal's entire post that I linked above it is much easier to understand what the ruling is. Some interpretations are just plain wrong or outdated, leading to more confusion here. > That still doesn't detract from it being overly complicated though.

@Brandonsantacruz: I didn't say that Pascal may not have ruled which is which or that it has been simplified. But I have been playing this game for a LONG time, and even with the collective rulings by LSJ & Pascal, I am not confident about how to rule this issue. It seems like all it takes is another strident debate from 'the right people' in the community for Pascal to create another special-case and there may still not be a global principle that will be used as a yardstick for developers and judges. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Lemminkäinen wrote: > Vampire A has Vampiric Disease and one blood left. Vampire B gets into combat with A and uses Outside the Hourglass with superior Temporis resulting in A falling into torpor before range is determined. Does vampire B get a disease counter? > No. Vampiric Disease counter is placed after range is determined (as linked by jamesatzephyr). Perhaps "when strikes are declared" is clearer than "after choosing range"..

> prunesquallor wrote: > So why does Disarm work with Outside The Hourglass (especially when combined with Domain of Evernight at basic Temporis, so that combat ends before range is determined), and Vampiric Disease does not? > Because Disarm reads "at the end of round" while Vampiric Disease reads "after range is set" (and the intent is to have the counter placed right before declaring strikes). Perhaps changing VD to "during strike declaration" would be clearer..

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > It sounds like you need to pick ONE premise and apply it to ALL cards (changing any appropriate rulings no matter who made them and when). > > 1) Before the Determine Range Step there is no range > > OR > > 2) The range is always close unless the Determine Range Step changes it to Long. > There should be a 3/ Cardtext is sufficient enough to answer such questions.

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > #1 Is the Determine Range step over when the range has been set by an effect? e.g. If Selective Silence is played does this end the Determine Range Step? > > #2 Can Outside the Hourglass (or any other "Only usable before range is determined") be played during the Determine Range Step IF something like Selective Silence (or another effect which sets range) has been played? > > #3 Can these cards be played during the Determine Range Step before the range is determined? (i.e. Can one of the "Only usable before range is determined" cards be played between maneuvers by the various minions?) If so, is the range for those effects the 'current range' (i.e. If a minion has maneuvered to long and OtH is played, is it now Ranged damage even if a minion later plays another maneuver to make the range close?) > > #4 Could we just truncate all of these potential rulings (which may vary card by card) and force two facts: 1) Before the determine range step ends, there is no range (neither close or long). 2) Should all "Before Range is determined" cards be force to be played before all maneuvers? (Effectively errata'ing all of them to read "Only playable before the Determine Range Step") > 1 - No. If you play Weather Control and Selective Silence, you still have damage to handle. 2 - Yes. And so would be any "Only usable before range" cards. [LSJ 20090825] 3 - No. 4 - The Rulebook and the Complete Rules Reference are quite clear on 60% of the questions that are asked. Cardtexts cover an additional 35%. Then you have 4% rulings. And 1% of obscureness. I would be happy to remove those last 5%, but that would have to be without altering how the other 95% work. I would gladly update VD's cardtext with 2 or 3 extra words to make it crystal clear.

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Is there a difference between "Only usable before range is determined" and "Play before range is determined" (e.g. Between the play-window of say OtH and Devil-channel: Hands) and "Before range is determined" (the text on OtH and/or Devil-channel: Hands from Zip Gun)? > No; they are the same. You can play Outside the Hourglass, and then Zip Gun, or the other way around. > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > So Pascal, can we potentially remove this legacy "Keywording" and replace it with something that is not just clear but also make a clear decision (which is then applied to ALL of the relevant cards overturning whichever legacy rulings are necessary) on: > 1) Is there a range before the ending of the Determine Range Step? > Rulebook reads: "Close range is the default for each round." If there is a combat, unless something changed the range to long, then range is close. > > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > 2) Does the sequence of playing cards, such as Outside the Hourglass, in the before range step drastically change their interactions? > That's to vague a question to get an absolute answer better than "It depends on what these cards do." > > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Example > Vamp A plays OtH then Vamp B plays Selective Silence (and has an Improvised Flamethrower) VS Vamp A plays Selective Silence (and has an Improvised Flamethrower) then Vamp B plays OtH. Which one/s (if any) should result in an exploding Improvised Flamethrower since there is nothing in the CRR.VI which actually states where the 'range is now close/long'. > Those in which the damage is taken at long range (per Improvised Flamethrower's cardtext), which are: the second one, and, depending on how the player with Selective Silence decided to order effects (did he handle the 2 damage before or after playing Selective Silence?), the first one too.

> Pascal wrote: > > > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > > Example > > Vamp A plays OtH then Vamp B plays Selective Silence (and has an Improvised Flamethrower) VS Vamp A plays Selective Silence (and has an Improvised Flamethrower) then Vamp B plays OtH. Which one/s (if any) should result in an exploding Improvised Flamethrower since there is nothing in the CRR.VI which actually states where the 'range is now close/long'. > > > Those in which the damage is taken at long range (per Improvised Flamethrower's cardtext), which are: the second one, and, depending on how the player with Selective Silence decided to order effects (did he handle the 2 damage before or after playing Selective Silence?), the first one too. > mmm how could the damage be "pending" ? I thought you had to handle damage (and prevention) right away (as stated in rulings/clarifications on weather control). If the vamp plays OtH, the dmage has to be handled before selective silence can be played -at least in my book, but I'd like to hear the official truth Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier

> Pascal wrote: > 1 - No. If you play Weather Control and Selective Silence, you still have damage to handle. > 2 - Yes. And so would be any "Only usable before range" cards. [LSJ 20090825] > 3 - No. > 4 - The Rulebook and the Complete Rules Reference are quite clear on 60% of the questions that are asked. Cardtexts cover an additional 35%. Then you have 4% rulings. And 1% of obscureness. I would be happy to remove those last 5%, but that would have to be without altering how the other 95% work. I would gladly update VD's cardtext with 2 or 3 extra words to make it crystal clear. > In response to #1: There can't be any damage left to resolve before the play of Selective Silence; VTES has no 'stack'. So, does Selective Silence immediately bypass the rest of the 'step'/window when it is played? In response to #2: Again, the reference is an old google-groups link; this site is the home of VTES now so something HERE should state that and honestly for new players it should be a card or rulebook. Can that please be put into the CRR, Rulebook or somewhere else that is EASY to reference? OR Could we update the text of these cards to explicitly be written to occur before the determine range step (not as they currently stand where the English on the card is ambiguous). ((Please note, there are only three steps in the Rulebook and 6 in the CRR, so which is correct??)) In response to #4: Why can't all of these "other sources" actually be obvious on the card? Why should 60% of the necessary information be off the card?? I have been trying to make this point, and it seems like I might have an ally in ICLee but probably not in Ankha or JamesatZephyr: Why should the card be almost the LAST port of call in a game where it says in the rulebook that "When the card conflicts with the rules, obey the card"???? Do people not see the stupidity of having an unofficial rule which says "Oh by the way, the card texts aren't actually the card texts and that the 'English' written on those card cannot be taken in its obvious sense". This is the heart of the struggle new players have with the game. We, as local Princes, tell them "Here are the rules, and in the rules it says that the cards trump the rulebook" and then have to tell them in a LARGE number of cases "Oh but the wording on that card is not actually how you read it that way..." It frustrates the shite out of me that to teach new people I have to be a walking encyclopedia of the trivia of 10+ years of Google Groups and then in their first few games I have to transfer probably a quarter of that. It frustrates them; their eyes swim and all I can say is "I really promise you that its worth it..." because that always works to convince people when they are considering if they want to trawl through eBay to buy leftover-collections to get any of their own cards. One of my 'new potential converts' is a MtG Judge and finds it frustrating to get into the variety of random rulings. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Reyda wrote: > mmm how could the damage be "pending" ? I thought you had to handle damage (and prevention) right away (as stated in rulings/clarifications on weather control). > > If the vamp plays OtH, the dmage has to be handled before selective silence can be played -at least in my book, but I'd like to hear the official truth > Cards such as Skin of Rock can be played to prevent Outside the Hourglass damage. The discussion was held some time ago: [LSJ 20100706] Extracts: > > > - You can play any (number) "only useable before range is determined" > > cards before preventing/healing damage from an OtH already played. > > Yes. >

> Pascal wrote: > Cards such as Skin of Rock can be played to prevent Outside the Hourglass damage. > > The discussion was held some time ago: > [LSJ 20100706] > Extracts: > > > > > - You can play any (number) "only useable before range is determined" > > > cards before preventing/healing damage from an OtH already played. > > > > Yes. > > The original RTR (linked by LSJ) is probably more helpful, since it explains what's going on: www.thelasombra.com/rules/RTR120204.txt > > RTR wrote: > The damage resolution phase does not preclude other effects (like tapping a > Barrens, for example). You may tap the Barrens to attempt to draw into more > damage prevention, or play Aura Reading when Weather Control damage is > applied (to attempt to draw Skin of Night if a Dawn Operation is in play, > for example). You still cannot "interrupt" damage handling, however (you > cannot burn two blood to heal and then use some effect to gain blood before > burning another blood to heal the remaining third point of damage, for > example). >

(Points to the Google-Discussion because apparently the RTR wasn't clear enough). +1 evidence for my point that we have failed to adapt card texts to include rulings. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

Juggernaut : that's exactly what i'm talking about when I say that Outside the hourglass is an example of "bad design, bad wording or both". By appreciating the length of discussions about this card that other claim is "crystal clear", too... Imagination is our only weapon in the war against reality -Jules de Gaultier