Card idea: Careful Study (research area action)

Name: Careful Study Cardtype: Action Cost: 1 pool +1 stealth action. Put this card into play and search your library for up to 4 minion cards (shuffle afterward). Place them face down in your research area. Cards in your research area count against your hand size. Any minion you control may move a card in your research area to your hand as a +1 stealth action. Burn this card when your research area is empty. A Methuselah may have only 1 Careful Study. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I love the general idea, but it may be too action-heavy to be worth it. Maybe the card retrieving can be a discard phase action ?

Yeah, I don't know why I'm going to drop my hand-size to 3 if I'm then going to have to take actions to get cards out of the Research Area before playing them. I could understand for instance: Careful Study 2X Name X cards in your library when you declare this action. If this action is successful you may put this card in play with X counters on it and put 1 copy of each named card into your Research Area. While this card is in play, you may play cards from your Research Area as if they were in your hand. Each card you play from the Research Area burns 1 counter from this card. Burn this card when it has 0 counters. No effects can reduce the cost of this card. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Ohlmann wrote: > I love the general idea, but it may be too action-heavy to be worth it. Maybe the card retrieving can be a discard phase action ? > Fetching the cards you want must have some cost, otherwise it would be plainly broken to play the cards you need anytime you need them. > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Yeah, I don't know why I'm going to drop my hand-size to 3 if I'm then going to have to take actions to get cards out of the Research Area before playing them. > > I could understand for instance: > > Careful Study > > 2X > Name X cards in your library when you declare this action. If this action is successful you may put this card in play with X counters on it and put 1 copy of each named card into your Research Area. While this card is in play, you may play cards from your Research Area as if they were in your hand. Each card you play from the Research Area burns 1 counter from this card. Burn this card when it has 0 counters. No effects can reduce the cost of this card. > Broken. Need those 3 events? Just name them. Need Villein + Giant's Blood? No problem. Need that Parity Shift + Voter Cap + Awe? Got it. Even with a heavy blood cost, having +X hand size AND those cards being those you want is broken. You may also add an Abactor or any cards providing more than 2 blood to cope the blood cost. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

The Research Area is already as useful as teats on a bull. So, I'd suggest either: X pool for X cards and access to the Research Area for a limited time. or 2X blood for X cards and access to the Research Area for a limited time. That card might as well be "Spend 1 pool to draw 4 cards of your choice from your library and discard". And this is all your card does. It reduces your hand by the cards you choose from your library and put into your Research Area (forcing you to discard) and costs 1 pool. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > That card might as well be "Spend 1 pool to draw 4 cards of your choice from your library and discard". And this is all your card does. It reduces your hand by the cards you choose from your library and put into your Research Area (forcing you to discard) and costs 1 pool. > You skip the fact that 1/ it fetches only minion cards 2/ before you get back to your original hand size, you have to spend X actions (and those actions are done with a reduced hand size, which can be penalizing if you need stealth or combat) 3/ it allows you to get other cards from your research area I think fetching is strong, thus the hand size drawback. And is useful for some combo decks (Chameleon/Banishment, attrition/banishment...). If, from the start, you don't see the need in expending the research area, why bother suggesting something then? Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

The card seems underpowered to me. Compare with Mokole Blood. The main drawback is the hand size reduction which makes it very problematic. I kind of agree with Juggernaut that the cost of the action should be X, where X is the number of cards you can move to your research area. And then delete the "counts against hand size" clause. I don't mind so much the minion card restriction only. This card could also be a Master which costs X pool too. With these changes, the card essentially becomes, "Pay 1 pool to take an action to search your library for a minion card (you can do this multiple times)" with a few additional light restrictions (initial action or MPA). That seems about right to me compared to other search mechanisms. When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike. pckvtes.wordpress.com @pckvtes

> Ankha wrote: > Fetching the cards you want must have some cost, otherwise it would be plainly broken to play the cards you need anytime you need them. > Is there a way to get discard phase actions ? With discard phase actions, the retrieved card go slowly in your hand. So for your hypothetical awe / vote cap / parity shift, you need to wait 3 turn to get it. Also, you are telegraphing the move, meaning people will have the time to get unique card into play if they have them in hand, or rush minions, or keep a DI for them, etc... In any circumstance, 4 actions to retrieve 3 card is way too expensive, especially with a size 3 hand, and especially since you can get only one of them per turn. Only very specific deck can have that many action to waste, and using the card to get 4 more breed card seem the opposite of the whole research concept. Note that if you don't use the retrieving ability, "Developpement" plus this card could possibly be playable in some deck - namely those non-trifle heavy. Also of note is that Sybil tongue, spirit summoning chamber, and Drop Point Network, both of which are a lot cheaper, are not played that much.

> Ohlmann wrote: > and especially since you can get only one of them per turn. > No, by doing X actions, you'll get X cards back. But I like the idea with the discard phase actions though it seems even slower -- but can't be blocked, maybe by mixing the 2. Still, I would avoid any effect that allows to put directly all the cards in hands, even at a X cost. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > No, by doing X actions, you'll get X cards back. > I was under the belief that the action of one card were useable only once per turn. Like Archon for example.

To be completely accurate... As Ankha had it written: 1 pool Reduce your handsize to 3 Spend 1 action from 4 different minions (since NRA would kick in). So this would require: Discarding 4 cards, 1 pool, 5 actions (1 for the card, 4 for fetching them back and assuming 5 different minions OR more-than-one minion phase), a prey and predator who have no ability to block your 0-stealth action, the favour of the Card Gods (to ensure you get that card you really need from the top of your library actually in your hand and not in the Research Area). Oh and this just gets them into my hand. I haven't USED them yet. Would you spend 5 actions to get 4 cards into your hand? I suspect this would only really get used by Weenie decks with easy cheap stealth. The problems for making this card playable are: 1) Limiting the abusable nature. 2) Appropriate cost in actions, blood and pool. 3) Making functional use of the Research Area. So, Ankha, you are worried about being able to "dial-a-hand"... and you do it by requiring an action to draw the card AND a handsize. The only examples you provided for 'abusable scenarios' were minion cards. Honestly, I don't mind if it draws Masters because it happens during the minion phase so the card is dead weight for the rest of the trip around the table. I don't think that the cost in actions should be as high. 5 actions + 1 pool to get 4 cards of your choice. In comparison with Mokole Blood (4 cards for this minion for 1 action + 1 pool) this card is far over-costed in actions. Part of the penalty I want to incur is giving away 'secret information'. If you draw "Banishment, Chameleon, Freak Drive and Voter Captivation" it's pretty obvious what you're planning and people can arrange to stop that, or stop you cycling. ... more to follow, I needed to leave to teach class. After Teaching: So I can see this becoming a Mokole Blood for a minion (at which point it should probably cost more since it is not FoS-specific, has limited restrictions and is not unique). Or for an even greater cost, I can see it becoming basically a special version of Visit from the Capuchin via the Research Area (and keeping them out of your hand where people can't Revelations you for instance). Mokole Blood for Everybody Careful Study Action 2 Pool +1 stealth action. Name 4 cards in your library when announcing this action. Put this card on the acting minion and put one copy of each card named under this card. The minion with this card can play those cards as if they were in your hand. When there are no cards under this card, burn this card. A minion may have only one Careful Study. Visit from the Cappucino Careful Study Action 2 Pool. +1 stealth action. Name 4 cards in your library when announcing this action. Put this card in play with 4 counters on it and place one copy of each named card in your Research Area. While this card is in play you may play cards from your Research Area as if they were in your hand. Each time you play a card from your Research Area burn 1 counter from this card. Burn this card when it has 0 counters. A Methuselah may have only one Careful Study. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Discarding 4 cards, 1 pool, 5 actions (1 for the card, 4 for fetching them back and assuming 5 different minions OR more-than-one minion phase) > I think you have missed the "up to" 4 cards. If you choose 4, yes, it's very hard to get them. 2 seems good and not too difficult. > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > , a prey and predator who have no ability to block your 0-stealth action > Where have you read it was a 0 stealth action? > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Would you spend 5 actions to get 4 cards into your hand? > In rare cases, yes, but since I would probably play it for 2, I'll spend 2 actions to get them. Shalmath is good for that for example. Or any vampire with Fortitude or a Rutor's Hand. (yeah, the card doesn't fit in every deck, hopefully). > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > I suspect this would only really get used by Weenie decks with easy cheap stealth. > Yeah, for example. > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > So, Ankha, you are worried about being able to "dial-a-hand"... > <snip> > Visit from the Cappucino > Careful Study > Action > 2 Pool. > +1 stealth action. > Name 4 cards in your library when announcing this action. Put this card in play with 4 counters on it and place one copy of each named card in your Research Area. While this card is in play you may play cards from your Research Area as if they were in your hand. Each time you play a card from your Research Area burn 1 counter from this card. Burn this card when it has 0 counters. A Methuselah may have only one Careful Study. > You don't seem worried at all, true. I do. > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > and you do it by requiring an action to draw the card AND a handsize. The only examples you provided for 'abusable scenarios' were minion cards. > Have you read what I wrote? Villein+Giant's Blood are not minion cards. Gehenna cards are not minion cards. > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Honestly, I don't mind if it draws Masters because it happens during the minion phase so the card is dead weight for the rest of the trip around the table. > Getting that Temptation of Greater Power, Pentex or Fear of Mekhet for the next turn is a problem. > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > I don't think that the cost in actions should be as high. 5 actions + 1 pool to get 4 cards of your choice. > Once again, if you choose 4, don't complain it takes 5 actions. Just choose 1 or 2. > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > In comparison with Mokole Blood (4 cards for this minion for 1 action + 1 pool) this card is far over-costed in actions. > Mokolo is only serpentis cards, and only the minion with the Mokole can play them. This is far less powerful. > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Part of the penalty I want to incur is giving away 'secret information'. If you draw "Banishment, Chameleon, Freak Drive and Voter Captivation" it's pretty obvious what you're planning and people can arrange to stop that, or stop you cycling. > They can't if they weren't prepared to it already if you allow the player to play them right away. > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Mokole Blood for Everybody > Careful Study > Action > 2 Pool > +1 stealth action. > Name 4 cards in your library when announcing this action. Put this card on the acting minion and put one copy of each card named under this card. The minion with this card can play those cards as if they were in your hand. When there are no cards under this card, burn this card. A minion may have only one Careful Study. > Too strong. Put a Voter Captivation or a Dark Mirror in the Mind in it and you've repaid your card (plus get 3 additionnal cards.) Or just put Freak Drive, Govern, Conditioning and some stealth. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

And people have missed that the card can also be used to get back the cards already in the Research Area. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ohlmann wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > No, by doing X actions, you'll get X cards back. > > > I was under the belief that the action of one card were useable only once per turn. Like Archon for example. > Once per turn per minion. So Duck and Rufina Soledad can both use the enter combat action on the Haven Uncovered on Fabrizia Contreraz. Nothing in the proposed card prevents it being used by multiple of your minions in one turn (or one minion over several turns, or a mix).