> Adonai wrote:
> Answer as many of these questions in your description as you can: How do you intend to oust? How do you intend to keep from being ousted? What do you want your ready region to look like (ie, how many guys are you planning on getting out)? What do you want your average turn to look like? What's your metagame like? How do your opponents play? What problems have you observed with the deck in play?
>
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
-Friedrich Nietzsche
brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/
My intention is to oust with bleed, defense from politics is obvious and I have some deflections to bounce bleed, also my intention is to rush predator's minions in case of aggressive/weenie decks. My plan is to get Hardestadt and at least one other vampire out, then third if possible. Plan is to Govern down, Villein then Voter cap/Taste them back to capacity. Play Anathema and Charges on same minion if possible to maximize effect.
Main problem that I've seen so far is a fact that it has no wakes. Second, I'd like to put Lilith's Blessing in, but I do not have a copy of the card. If Blessing would kick in, I would also put some Potence discipline cards.
Ignorance is bliss.
Cypher, Matrix
> Megabaja wrote:
> size=18]Deck Name : red list hardestat[/size]
> Author : Shootic
> Description :
>
> Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 10 max: 11 average: 10.3333
> 4x Hardestadt (11) inner circle Ventrue (group 4)
> 4x Gustav Breidenstein (10) prince Ventrue (group 4)
> 4x Lucinde, Alastor (10) justicar Ventrue (group 3)
>
The crypt is not optimal because of the inferior potence. Is there a reason to stick to Ventrues?
Why not consider:
Alonso Petrodon
Clan: Nosferatu (group 5)
Capacity: 10
Disciplines: ANI DOM OBF POT for tha
Camarilla Nosferatu Justicar: When Alonso bleeds successfully, each anarch controlled by the target takes 1 unpreventable damage. +1 bleed.
Superior potence seems better than superior fortitude in your deck. I would also include cheaper sidekicks that can't call Anathema but still can rush.
Virginie, Prodigy
Clan: Lasombra (group 4)
Capacity: 6
Disciplines: DOM POT obt
Sabbat bishop: Once each action, Virginie may burn 1 blood to get +1 bleed.
Gianmaria Giovanni
Clan: Giovanni (group 5)
Capacity: 5
Disciplines: POT dom nec obt
Independent.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> The crypt is not optimal because of the inferior potence. Is there a reason to stick to Ventrues?
>
Lucinde and Gustav have card texts that are very useful in this deck, they have presence that is essential, and superior fortitude proved to be more useful than superior potence, mostly because of Freak Drives.
Ignorance is bliss.
Cypher, Matrix
> Megabaja wrote:
> size=18]Deck Name : red list hardestat[/size]
> Author : Shootic
> Description :
>
> Crypt [12 vampires] Capacity min: 10 max: 11 average: 10.3333
> 4x Hardestadt (11) inner circle Ventrue (group 4)
> 4x Gustav Breidenstein (10) prince Ventrue (group 4)
> 4x Lucinde, Alastor (10) justicar Ventrue (group 3)
>
> Library [90 cards]
>
> Action [7]
> 5x Govern the Unaligned
> 2x Heroic Might
>
> Action Modifier [20]
> 1x Enkil Cog
> 13x Freak Drive
> 6x Voter Captivation
>
> Combat [31]
> 4x Hidden Strength
> 7x Immortal Grapple
> 6x Slam
> 3x Superior Mettle
> 3x Target Vitals
> 5x Taste of Vitae
> 3x Torn Signpost
>
> Equipment [2]
> 1x Heart of Nizchetus
> 1x Helicopter
>
> Master [13]
> 2x Pentex(TM) Subversion
> 2x Trophy: Domain
> 1x Trophy: Hunting Ground
> 1x Trophy: Library
> 1x Trophy: Revered
> 1x Ventrue Headquarters
> 5x Villein
>
> Political Action [11]
> 2x Alastor
> 4x Anathema
> 5x Trumped-Up Charges
>
> Reaction [6]
> 6x Deflection
>
> Crafted with : Anarch Revolt Deck Builder. [Sun Jun 17 19:57:05 2012]
>
> Any suggestions?
>
It seems like if you drop most of the voting angle you can make those card slots more immediately useful. The card Red List is better than Trumped-up charges IMO because it doesn't require votes and can't be delayed. It can be blocked more easily, but DOM has an answer for that.
I think you have too many trophies and you need Trophy: Diablerie. Also, you have no crypt acceleration other than Govern. Info Highway and Dreams could go in there, if not also Zillah's Valley.
Where's the Disarm? Where's the Amaranth? 8/12 can play Forced March, too.
Edit: Hardestat Eats the World is a good model to compare this deck to. There's a lot of efficiency built into the +2 str w/ prevent and deflection plan of attack. Trumped-up charges adds another mechanic you need to support and Anathema doesn't work well with the whole combat package. I'd reconsider the vote angle and leave maybe the only vote as Alastor for the built-in rush and cheap Helicopter. Lucidne or Gustav could be support weenies with dom/DOM to bounce and you could have 5x Hardestat to be sure to get him.
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
-Friedrich Nietzsche
brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/
> The card Red List is better than Trumped-up charges IMO because it doesn't require votes and can't be delayed.
>
In the beginning of my Trophy/Red List deck idea, i used Red List. But, Red List cannot be played on other titled vampires, and it must be played on younger ones, as opposed to Trumped-Up Charges. That is why the deck has big cap voters and other politics at first place.
I considered adding disarms, but instead of amaranth, disarm, decapitate, or aggravated damage, I tried to use bigger strength to empty vampires, anathema, to burn 'em and gain pool, and trumped-up charges to collect trophies.
I will put Trophy Diablerie in the deck for sure, and I really don't know when I left it out in the first place. On the other hand I could add Archon which gives rush and blood burning in case of block attempts.
Ignorance is bliss.
Cypher, Matrix
How about Blood Hunt? True, 1/3rd of your crypt cannot play it and it has some limitations, but it is permanent, works for all the vampires and is not a political action...
I don't understand how that can possibly work. Hardestadt cannot play Anathema and the others cannot reliably empty a vampire, so you need to influence 21 pool worth of vampires for the deck to start working, with little acceleration and little defense. That is too slow.
Same as Brandon: get rid of Anathema and base the combat on prevent/Disarm/Amaranth so that the first minion you influence can burn vampires on his own.
> Kiddo wrote:
> How about Blood Hunt? True, 1/3rd of your crypt cannot play it and it has some limitations, but it is permanent, works for all the vampires and is not a political action...
>
Bloodhunt is a good idea, same with Archon. I think Victor Donaldson could be a good sidekick to play cards like that, along with deflection. Emily Carson is also good because she fits right under him in the govern chain, and both of them under Graham Gottesman. I think that the whole Red List mechanic could be secondary to just pummeling and eating people. Good when it works out, but not required. Depravity could also help on that end for the +1 str, +1 stealth on diablerie.
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
-Friedrich Nietzsche
brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/
> brandonsantacruz wrote:
> I think that the whole Red List mechanic could be secondary to just pummeling and eating people. Good when it works out, but not required.
>
That is a slippery slope. First you move the focus away from trophies, then you start wondering why you should eat people when you can graverob them and you take all the trophies out
> Non-existant user wrote:
>
> > brandonsantacruz wrote:
> > I think that the whole Red List mechanic could be secondary to just pummeling and eating people. Good when it works out, but not required.
> >
> That is a slippery slope. First you move the focus away from trophies, then you start wondering why you should eat people when you can graverob them and you take all the trophies out
>
That, I suppose, is the same road that leads many an anarch deck to be just a deck, or nothing. For the purposes of this deck, I would say it is best to concentrate on Red List *or* voting, not both. Sure Trumped-up Charges makes someone red list, but now you need a freak drive and a rush after you pass it. Or you can wait until the next turn... and die before you can mark someone.
Trophies I see as the sweetener in a Red List deck. 1x Diablerie is required, plus you could add one or two other trophies. If you don't need to go dig for diablerie when/if your trick goes off, congrats, you get +2 bleed or whatever. How many times can it really go off? Sure, you can collect multiple trophies that are in play. Maybe. Or you can choke on them and just die. That's especially true when you can't cycle cards with multiple minions a turn. Table control with rushes is just more important than having your trophies go off. Titled camarilla don't have trouble getting intercept, nor do DOM minions have trouble getting +bleed.
Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
-Friedrich Nietzsche
brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/
> How about Blood Hunt? True, 1/3rd of your crypt cannot play it and it has some limitations, but it is permanent, works for all the vampires and is not a political action...
>
That I will try. I will put Imperator too, so Hardestadt could use it too. Losing title is not making significant difference.
Island of Yiaros i do not possess.
> Or you can wait until the next turn... and die before you can mark someone.
>
That goes for every deck. And I agree that red list combat is not best combat concept for the deck, but I am trying to make it work optimal, without losing theme - which is Red List with Trophies.
Ignorance is bliss.
Cypher, Matrix
I have seen the deck in action, and i can say this
It is slow to start,and vulnerable in the beginning, But once it gets going, it is really strong.
Also, Never underestimate power of inferior potence. I have seen Lucinda empty out 8 blood on a anathema'd Gabrielle di righetti. Slam+target vitals+torn signpost with a press go a long way.
What i feel deck is lacking is definitely lilith's blessing, 2 potence masters, island of yiaros is also a good idea.
Also, depravity is definite slot-in. A built in strength and additional stealth on diablerie - yes please.
I prefer archons over alastors in deck like this. Permanent rush with an option to diablerize is really strong, and blood burning is just icing.
Carlton Van Wyk. If you play him nobody else does. My Jaroslav Pascek once was killed by a Carlton after diablerizing one red list and after he was tooled up with Trophies Domain and Hunting ground .
Baron of Frankfurt
I would replace; 3 freak drives with forced march.
; helicopter with eye of hazimel
I would like to see one copy of monster in the deck and either monastery of shadows or kine dominance.
A couple copies of life in the city can be of benefit, but likely to corner case to bother with.
> Megabaja wrote:
> I am trying to make it work optimal, without losing theme - which is Red List with Trophies.
>
And with Haardestadt, would I say
Because I believe Anathema and diablerie too action-heavy in a deck with such fatties, I must admit I would better use claw of the dead. After all, 5 aggravated damage is often enough, and the card is both cheaper and more versatile than decapitate.
(the very easiest way would be in my opinion gargoyle. Even the most humble grotesque can use raking talon, pounce, and target vital to do 5 aggravated, without even needing blood. You would "only" need to find some titled tremere or !tremere to make people red list)
> Pendargon wrote:
> Also, Never underestimate power of inferior potence. I have seen Lucinda empty out 8 blood on a anathema'd Gabrielle di righetti. Slam+target vitals+torn signpost with a press go a long way.
>
Slam x6
Target Vitals x3
Torn Signpost x3
Hidden Strength x4
All in 90 cards. You saw it once, but how likely is it to happen again? Also, note that even after playing 4 cards, that chain would is foiled by any maneuver, prevent or press and that you need to add a grapple against dodge/combat ends/steal blood/non-damaging strikes in general (or you lose the right to play Hidden Strength for a press). With only, the whole deck has a whooping 0 maneuvers and 4 conditional presses.
> Megabaja wrote:
> But, Red List cannot be played on other titled vampires, ...
>
Huh?
Name: Red List
Cardtype: Action
Requires a ready, titled, non-Red List vampire.
Choose a ready ally or a ready younger vampire. The chosen minion becomes Red List. That minion may not attempt to block this action.
Baron of Frankfurt
> Carlton Van Wyk. If you play him nobody else does. My Jaroslav Pascek once was killed by a Carlton after diablerizing one red list and after he was tooled up with Trophies Domain and Hunting ground
>
Carlton's text is special, but then again, you can make him red list, and burn him with one grapple... also, my point is to make red listed minions burn thru anathema, not by diablerie... that's why i didn't have amaranth or trophy...
> I would replace; 3 freak drives with forced march.
> ; helicopter with eye of hazimel
>
> I would like to see one copy of monster in the deck and either monastery of shadows or kine dominance.
>
why would i swap forced march? it is free, sure, but i do not have blood problem in this deck. eye of hazimel might be fine, but i why would i put it? 'cause of superior potence? might prove too expensive, given that i play in meta with lots of Gremlins and Loss...
Monster or other masters are great, but might clog the deck. Actually I try to lessen the number of those...
> You saw it once, but how likely is it to happen again?
>
Basically, when a player has those cards in hand, and rushes other vampire.
EDIT:
I need to bolster defence of this deck, that is my focus at the time. Any suggestions?
Ignorance is bliss.
Cypher, Matrix
Why forced march? because its free, 2/3's of your crypt can play it and you can play it if freak drive is D.I.'d or visa versa.
The Eye does more than give , there are four other beneficial abilities that it gives for this deck. While it is expensive, it still may be playable with Alastor, but not in a Loss and Gremlins heavy environment.